Alchemical Solutions [Worm/Exalted] Thread 23: We Wonder Where Who Wanders When Watchers Wane

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I must admit to being really confused about why Oblivion (which is the concept of no essence), Autochthon's voidness-death-sickness-blight and the death essence of the Underworld would be three completely different things.
Oblivion is funky.
It didn't exist until that which could not die(Primordials) were killed by the Exalted.
It's not just no essence, it's like entropy on steroids.

Autobot is unique.
Makes sense that even his illness displays special snowflake characteristics.

The Underworld isn't working properly. Hasn't been since the Exalted killed the first bunch of Primordials creating Neverborn, but it chugged on.
And that was made worse when the Sidereals and Dragonbloods killed a bunch of very old, very powerful Solars in the Usurpation, leaving restless ghosts with a grudge who did deals with the Neverborn.
The culmination was when the Balorian Crusade killed literally 90% of Creation.

@Imrix or @Shyft could probably explain better, or maybe @veekie.
I understand that Autochthon's existence might somehow it to continue existing but if Autochthon truly dies shouldn't Oblivion go with him. (I understand that we have GM conformation that if Autochthon dies everything goes with him but I want to know why).
Note that this is Taylor's interpretation of things, with help from Iris.
For all we know, they could be wrong; Autobot has never died before after all:V

If Autobot dies, he's gone.
Engine of Extinction is a very different person from Autobot.

Oblivion wouldn't go for the same reason Oblivion didn't simply vanish after Creation died; there is more stuff to eat that is accessible/linked.
Auto's mortality links him to Oblivion while he is so close to death.
Since Auto has accessed the Nowhereverse, there is a link; he dies, it'll simply cross that link and continue eating it's way across the Nowhereverse until there's nothing left and nothing linked.

Only then will it vanish. Unless it finds yet another link somewhere else.
 
Oblivion cannot be anything. It's an exclusion/outside/null/cannot read.

Like, a lot of people think of Oblivion as 'Nothing', but the universe of Exalted already allows for Nothing. It's not a diametric opposition to 'Something'. Even trying to say Oblivion is something misses the point. I'm not saying it cannot be described, but the nature of Oblivion is only approximated by language.
 
All that's left is the remaining Celestial Exaltations,

Huh. Where did those get off to? I suppose Autobot probably didn't bring any with him, so are they just sort of hanging around in the middle of the Wyld being indestructible fate-defying superweapons? This seems like a thing that would have already been answered somewhere, maybe. Hrm. :V
 
Huh. Where did those get off to? I suppose Autobot probably didn't bring any with him, so are they just sort of hanging around in the middle of the Wyld being indestructible fate-defying superweapons? This seems like a thing that would have already been answered somewhere, maybe. Hrm. :V

They orbit Oblivion. Being indestructible, they can't be consumed by it, but neither can they escape its pull.


Um, wasn't Lethe a thing?
And I don't believe souls were reincarnated immediately.

They were. Or atleast I seem to recall a mention somewhere that dead Hun souls ALWAYS automatically went straight to Lethe before the Underworld came to be.
 
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Lethe and the Underworld are different things.
The souls waiting for reincarnation in Lethe are very much not ghosts.
As I understand it, Lethe is a part of the Underworld.
The UW was basically the antechamber that souls passed through before diving into Lethe.
They didn't hang around there, and it didn't become the vastly bloated mess it currently is for quite a while.

Then again, I have never been interested enough to read the Abyssals books.
Huh. Where did those get off to? I suppose Autobot probably didn't bring any with him, so are they just sort of hanging around in the middle of the Wyld being indestructible fate-defying superweapons? This seems like a thing that would have already been answered somewhere, maybe. Hrm. :V
They're basically hanging in the middle of Oblivion being indestructible superweapons.
Same seal that's keeping Oblivion from Auto and the Nowhereverse is keeping them away from the delicious souls in Autochtonia and the Nowhereverse.
They'll not turn up in this story, though they will turn up in-universe if/after Oblivion is dealt with.

"After which, he won't just die. Iris says he'll become a... 'Neverborn', which is like a super-powered, unkillable, undead version of him. Our only way to tell when that happens will be when he comes tearing through a new Cradle to devour our entire multiverse."
Silver lining: Much fewer complaints about considering GU as a candidate.
Not when the alternatives are that stark:V:V
 
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As for Ebon Dragon convincing Auto to change, I have never heard of that.
Apparently, that was homebrew so now it makes more sense. Sorry for the confusion.

For Engine of Extinction to find peace, the fetter(rope) must be snapped, and that can only happen by making sure that Nowhereuniverse is consumed by Oblivion. Only once Nowhereuniverse is utterly destroyed, can EoE finally follow the other Neverborn into Oblivion, and end the agony of being a Neverborn.
See, this is what I don't quite understand. If he is somewhat mortal is the only difference between him and his brethren is that they needed "help" to reach Neverborn state? I understand how fetters are supposed to work with the whole tied to the universe, but I don't see how Autochthon can reach the state of the Neverborn but still be somewhat different than the others due to his mortality. Also I was under the impression that the Neverborn could never truly die because they are also stuck with the thought that they can't die, so that if they could just hold on for a moment and "think", they could simply be released from their state and die completely. That they are stuck like that because they believe the only way to die is if the universe goes with them. However you would expect a being which knows itself to be mortal and is well connected with mortals to "simply" accept death when it embraces him (not a moment before mind you, but I'm talking about not becoming an obsessed being in eternal pain of death until everything he cares about goes with him...).

For all we know, they could be wrong; Autobot has never died before after all:V
Good point. That would really clear a lot of questions about Autochthons existence.

Oblivion cannot be anything. It's an exclusion/outside/null/cannot read.

Like, a lot of people think of Oblivion as 'Nothing', but the universe of Exalted already allows for Nothing. It's not a diametric opposition to 'Something'. Even trying to say Oblivion is something misses the point. I'm not saying it cannot be described, but the nature of Oblivion is only approximated by language.
I think I understand that, but with the death aligned essence of the underworld (the same way the pillars of creation are aligned, I guess) I don't understand where Autochthon's corruption fits in. Datakim's hypothesis of "heat death essence" kinda makes sense until I consider that that means basically Essence aligned to not be Essence in any way, which doesn't really make sense. Sure, Exalted is full of things that don't really make sense including the physical-yet-nothing embodiment of nothing which is oblivion or things which are shadows of themselves. Even more, if the Autochthon's sickness would have simply been "broken" "dead" parts you wouldn't really expect them to have an "agenda", if they don't embody active death and if they don't embody nonexistence like Oblivion and if they really embody being overused batteries you wouldn't expect them to do much except them to actively do anything.

I'm sorry for my mad rumbling btw, I'm simply quite confused. Trying to write it doing makes it clearer though.

Huh. Where did those get off to? I suppose Autobot probably didn't bring any with him, so are they just sort of hanging around in the middle of the Wyld being indestructible fate-defying superweapons? This seems like a thing that would have already been answered somewhere, maybe. Hrm. :V
As Uju and Datakim mention they simply stand there in Oblivion as stated by the Oblivion interlude which is short enough and relevant enough that I might as well quote the entire thing.
Floating in an endless Abyss, dim embers of powers too invincible to be destroyed even by Nothingness itself serve as the only reminder of the existence that birthed them.


There are no memories of a Primordial War, here. Nor of the Ages that followed.

No memory of a great darkness escaping its prison through trickery, only to drown the world in sorrow.

For those that would have remembered chose Death over Suffering.


So now, there are no Primordials, no Gods, and no Mortals.


Only Oblivion.
Edit: fixed some grammer.
 
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@Broken25
Well, you're right that the UW didn't exist until the Primordial War.
Compass: Underworld pg 9 said:
The Underworld did not exist until the gods rebelled against the Primordials. The immortal gods remember this time and the proper cycle of reincarnation that the Primordials ordained. When people died, their rational, higher souls, called hun, left their corpses and immediately entered Lethe—not a place, but a state that washed away all memories before the souls entered new lives. The animal, lower souls, called po, stayed with the bodies and dissipated as the cadavers decayed.

Of Oblivion, the gods are less certain. Perhaps Oblivion existed as a place or state in its own right; perhaps it existed as part of the primal Wyld, which necessarily included the potential for nonexistence along with every other possibility. No entity within Creation ever faced Oblivion, however. Physically and spiritually, there were no true endings, only changes of form and state.

The death of the first Primordial changed everything. Creation's authors had not bound themselves to Creation's rules. A slain Primordial could not reincarnate, but it was too powerful simply to disappear. The birth of the Underworld resolved this paradox.

Divine and Exalted savants do not understand how the first Primordial death created the Underworld. Did the dying Primordial's memories of Creation pull a second reality from the Wyld? Did its death rip away part of Creation's Essence and shape it into a flawed imitation? Is the Underworld all a dream in the eternally dying Primordials' minds? Prudent savants warn that such questions carry the risk of madness, for finite creatures—even gods—cannot fully comprehend their infinite creators. It suffices to say that the Underworld appeared, the slain Primordials became its Neverborn gods, and souls had two new alternatives to forgetfulness and reincarnation. They could linger in the half-reality of the Underworld or cease to exist entirely.
 
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Solar Bob: "We kinda broke the universe when we killed some of the primordials, and now their undead corpses orbit an empty void of all consuming nothingness. Should we maybe do something about it?"
Solar Joe: "Damn right we should! We should go there, get the corpses, drag them all up and build a huge border wall made from their dead tomb husks around Creation. We should then carve warnings to stay away on their corpses. That way, the damn dirty Raksha can never enter Creation!"
Solar Bob: "...Damn. I like the way you think Joe. We should absolutely do just that!"
Solar Alice: "That would be too damn expensive. We can't afford to build the wall, and we can't make the Raksha pay for it either. You would never get the votes needed."
Solar Joe&Bob: "Ahh, damn. Well, it was a nice thought."
Solar Jack: "Maybe a fence?"

(What makes this so awesome is that if we accept Ink Monkeys as canon, THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENED! :))

A vote will soon go before the Deliberative to decide the fate of the so-called Neverborn. If favored by the majority, our Realm shall begin the process of extracting and moving the diffuse Essences of those fallen Primordials to the borders of Creation, where they will be forged into a great wall of soulsteel and jade. Engraved on these walls will be a history of the terrors and triumphs of the Primordials, leading up to their eventual and total ruin at our hands. Tunnels carved through these walls will house the Labyrinth. These tunnels will be the only method for penetrating this wall, and within them will be the memorial halls of true death, a monument of the horror and ruin that came to the Primordials, frozen forever in cognizant still-life and undeath. Any forces seeking to invade Creation would have to navigate these chambers and see firsthand the fate that befell our greatest enemies.

Such a construct would not only deter future attempts such as the one made by Ramethus, but it would also grant the fallen titans a modicum of relevance and a measure of their former dignity. Unfortunately, this plan is an unpopular one. The general consensus amongst my peers: 'Why bother? We owe them no solace, no end to their ruin. And such an effort would be no doubt outrageously expensive, taking a great toll on not only coffers but life.
 
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Silly thought: What if Costa-Brown's "no more children" is just a subtle hint to "fucking Exalt Alexandria already, I'm missing part of my spine Weaver!"
 
Silly thought: What if Costa-Brown's "no more children" is just a subtle hint to "fucking Exalt Alexandria already, I'm missing part of my spine Weaver!"
You know, Cauldron would perhaps be in our debt for saving/restoring Alex...

And Accord can't play the cripple card...

Admittedly, it's still the Accord Caste. :V
 
FANART
ALCHEMICAL INTERPRETATIONS: HAVE A NICE DAY
Aisha Laborn, everyone.

This one's almost a year old, dating back to last Christmas;a little optimistic perhaps, but it seems to have worked out?
I've been saving it for an appropriate occasion; this looked like it.

Art by Ithilnaur on DeviantArt
Heh, I wonder if the Watchmen comic made it across to Earth-Bet - it was made before Haywire's portal connected Aleph and Bet, after all. Either way, good stuff - pretty much fits my mental image, so I'll call it Quest Canon. +1 XP!

So, first of all we've got Youth Guard shit-storms. Nowhere-verse has truly inspiring methods of ensuring their peasants have fertilizers for their crops, and the noble Youth Guard apparently contribute to this...endeavor. Astounding.
Propelled by their positively prolific posteriors towards proper protection of progeny.
Don't issue an order you aren't sure is going to be obeyed, Chief Director.
She has to be seen saying it, though, much like her previous warning when we picked Marrow.
Thanks! Fixed both!
The more I consider it, the more essential RIA looks in the build of anyone with a Social Aug.
Certainly something Taylor should buy.
While it is pretty danged awesome, I might want to limit it to the social-focused characters just for narrative cohesion. We'll see.
Yeah, she just rumbled Alexandria.
There was more than one realization going on there, since... you know, 8 threads of consciousness. That was likely one of them, yes.
Thank you. Fixed!
How the hell did I forget the public health implications?
We should probably prioritize those medical nanites right quick.
Something worth keeping in mind is that, for all its problems, Autochthonia would have been far more coordinated and advanced (in every way) than Creation was when the Great Contagion hit, as well as being much more ruthlessly pragmatic when it comes to treatment and analysis of new problems. While I won't confirm or deny that the GC impacted Autoland, if it did then it most certainly had a much different course than it did in Creation.

Earth-Bet, on the other hand... not so much.
Happy Thanksgiving, USians!
If I manage to pull away from the festivities tonight with enough energy to work, tonight's update will probably be late in the evening. I'll make a post tonight on whether I'll be pushing it to Friday or not.
 
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Silly thought: What if Costa-Brown's "no more children" is just a subtle hint to "fucking Exalt Alexandria already, I'm missing part of my spine Weaver!"
If all she wants is healing, we can do that without chucking her in the Cradle.

We can probably actually even rebuild her original eye, given enough assistants; reconstructive surgery is an established thing on Earth Bet.
Int 5+ Medicine 3 + six trained nurses/surgeons + Prayer + Saki + equipment bonus + research/prep bonus + SPU + IEU will give you somewhere around 14 autosux minimum; probably more since there are two Celestial Exalts assisting with medical charms.
Grafting tissue from other body parts as Prayer's Body Reweaving Matrix is fixing them and Saki is hitting her with Exalted-healing drugs? We should get everything done in twelve hours or so.

Hell, we might even get Iris to help because it lets him get a look at unique physiology,and having a 3CD involved is bigtime bonus.
Of course, if we'd simply taken the medical nanites, it would have been much simpler to simply inject her with them when she was in Saki's pocket space and program appropriately.

While it is pretty danged awesome, I might want to limit it to the social-focused characters just for narrative cohesion. We'll see.
Requires a Social Aug installed as a prereq, and has to be used as part of an action involving said Aug, at least until E4 and the E4 submod.
So for example, someone with only a Man Aug would be able to use it for Manipulation actions.
And then there's personality approaches.

Still, your decision.
But I would be very mournful if we can't have Aisha kungfu/gunfu fighting while white doves flutter in the background.
....
That gives me an idea for her totemic anima.
*makes note*
I thought Taylor could only split to 6 consciousnesses in her mind. not 8.
She can split up to (Essence*2) trains of thought.
So at E3 it was 6, but now she's E4 it's 8.
 
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While I won't confirm or deny that the GC impacted Autoland, if it did then it most certainly had a much different course than it did in Creation.
Earth-Bet, on the other hand... not so much.
Forgot to address this:
It doesn't have to be the GC, and the danger is not to Earth Bet alone.

I am pretty damn sure that Autochtonia has nil resistance against Nowhereverse measles for example. Or whooping cough. Or chickenpox. Or any of a baker's dozen of infectious diseases we're still having trouble with.

And since they had no poultry to act as animal reservoirs, they have no experience with the flu, which can be unexpectedly deadly; the Spanish flu of 1918 infected 500 million people and killed 50-100 million.
The world population was 1.8 billion.
That death toll was 3-5 % of the then world population, and we at least have some herd immunity from previous flu epidemics.

Or, given how central rats are to their animal population, Earth Bet fleas carrying bubonic plague cross into Autochtonia.
We can treat it(antibiotics), but the central mode of control has always been interrupting transmission.
We kill our rats; their rats are a central part of their economy.

And that does not even address the possibility of deliberate biological warfare by either the Void-touched, or some paranoid govt on either side of the Cradle.
Bad things, man.
Bad Things.
 
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Can a meat-machine cold effect someone running on Essence physics? Since something like chicken pox wouldn't have any effect on the soul, just the mat body.
 
ADDENDUM
Note that if we treat repairing Alexandria as a warstrider, it's even easier to rebuild her everything.
The canon rules for fixing a warstrider state:
WotLA pg 148 said:
To remove these penalties, a technician must first spend twice the amount of time the warstrider is in arrears on routine maintenance. For example, if the warstrider had gone 25 hours without maintenance, the technician(s) would have to first spend 40 full hours on routine maintenance (two 10-hour blocks multiplied by two, with the last five hours of arrearage ignored). Then, each penalty must be repaired individually, with each separate repair requiring both one hour of repair time and an Intelligence + Craft (Magitech) roll at a difficulty of 3.

Especially complicated repairs, such as reattaching severed limbs, require additional time, manpower, resources and increase the difficulty to 5, all at Storyteller discretion. On the other hand, Charms—especially high-level Solar Craft Charms—might speed up even the most difficult repairs to
something that can be done within minutes.
We can do this.
To be honest, I'm actually looking forward to it.
Can a meat-machine cold effect someone running on Essence physics? Since something like chicken pox wouldn't have any effect on the soul, just the mat body.
Most diseases in Creation only affected the body, not the soul.
Furthermore, we are trying to convert Earth Bet to Essence physics. That includes the microbes.
 
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