dpara
slightly confused ascendant
This is an excellent idea.
6) we demonstrate our currently somewhat ambivalent social exalt that we are trustworthy.
Alchemical Solutions [Worm/Exalted] Thread 23: We Wonder Where Who Wanders When Watchers Wane
- Thread starter Gromweld
- Start date
Killing him is off the table right now, since he has no kill order at this time. That leaves imprisonment.
Relevant questions. Probably a high-security prison facility. Regarding question 2- depends on the timing. While in transit, or once he is delivered? Regarding question 3, one would think that if the Elite or Yangban wanted him they would nabbed him by now, given his successes against Dragon. That being said, plans to guard against possible attempts would be prudent, yes.
After writing that huge post, too tired to reply at more length today. Still I will say this. I feel its unwise to rely too much on what happened in worm canon. Canon did not have alchemical exalted. Canon did not have Autochton, a machine god (well, primordial). Canon did not have a plan where said alchemicals were intending to summon that machine-god to Earth.
This quest does, and Saint knows all about that. In canon he was in control (or atleast felt that way) due to the "leash" he had on the "beast" (to quote the interlude in this quest). He has no such leash on alchemicals, and no such leash on Auto. Looking at how he proceeded in canon, and assuming he will act the same way seems kinda silly. We have thrown HUMONGOUS butterflies into the world. I don't know whats going to happen (only Gromweld does), but the one thing we can be pretty sure about is that Saint won't be acting exactly identical to the way he did in canon.
Somehow I don't think Ziz would be accepted as a valid witness in a court of law. I don't really see why this matters?
How about the dimension only we can access, and which counters any parahuman powers, rendering "breakout specialists" useless.
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RoninSword
Sky God
- Location
- Canada
I forget what Starmetal Anima's do.
Adamant causes the memory change, Soul-steel causes fear. Ori causes extra damage, Jade causes extra defence, Monsilver causes them to speed-boost themselves. Forget Starmetal :S
Adamant causes the memory change, Soul-steel causes fear. Ori causes extra damage, Jade causes extra defence, Monsilver causes them to speed-boost themselves. Forget Starmetal :S
Alchemical Castes - Alchemical Solutions Wiki
Should update that, though will probably wait until Saki meditates and everything is finished.
1)High security did not stop Faultline's crew from waltzing into one such facility and leaving with Labyrinth.
Did not stop Madcap either.
Or whoever broke Accord out after he was imprisoned for embezzling government funds.
2)Any. Both.
Hookwolf escaped Birdcage transport twice, and Assault used to make a career of breaking people out of jail.
Lung literally got broken out of PRT HQ.
3) They don't know who he is now, and he is armed enough that taking him alive is a low-probability event anyway.
In capturing and sending him to trial, you are both exposing his identity, putting him in a known location, and stripping him of personal defenses.
They can walk in and out with him.
And that's without the US or Canadian government simply offering him a deal, like they have done with Madcap.
Like they did with Colin in canon.
4) What plans? Give specifics.
No high-security facility we've seen in canon has ever employed parahumans as staff; at best they call on Protectorate response teams.
So you have to explain how you intend to hold him in jail against parahuman intruders.
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The Lowtide
Mountain Witch
- Location
- Redmond, WA
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I'm not actually on either side of this argument, but I'd like to point out that we have the Shard of Transcendental Imprisonment prison-dimension which could easily do this without any threat of breakout.
FunkyEntropy
Occasionally insightful, possibly grumpy
- Location
- Los Angeles
I dislike this since it seems to rest on the premise that doing the right thing is essentially a progress bar that, once filled, can be ignored.
I think it's better to think of it as a foundation upon which we build our mightiest works. The more good we do, the stronger the foundation.
We're already in deep enough that people could tar us by association. Much better that we could turn around and say, "yeah, and we noticed that what they were doing with C53s was completely unacceptable and thus immediately began working to correct that problem." This more than adequately covers our behind since it puts us as the outsider seeking reforms plus has the added benefit of, y'know, doing right by our teammates and the C53 community.
Which is another thing. It's not really a mechanical benefit or anything, but I really like the story it tells that Taylor wants (and takes action) to correct obvious wrongs. That she cares about the things her teammates care about, and that she's willing to miss out on immediate material benefit or favors or whatever in order to do right by them (and also, conveniently, do the right thing).
I don't know enough about some of the in-setting specifics, nor incarceration practices in general, to give you what you want. I'll say that straight out. However, Datakim has made convincing arguments that Saint is likely to move against us sooner rather than later. I cannot understand why you feel that waiting for him to make a potentially devastating first strike against either us or Dragon before we do anything about him is a good idea.
Saki is not a government prison though, and would probably not be enthused at serving as one.
Or the oversight and restrictions that would ensue.
Not to mention the lawsuits about whether it counts as a prison sentence when a person is in stasis.....
Furthermore,Saint does not have the reputation for savagery/death toll that would require them taking special measures.
He's more or less a normal supervillain by Earth Bet standards, not a monster; outside his Dragon obsession, he wouldn't make the scale.
Not to mention that normal trials are long, and he would still have to show up in court for the trial dates.
The point I'm trying to make is that all of the other conditions that have been suggested spiral into escalation.
Except that's not what I said?
Working with Riley would be an ongoing commitment of time and effort, not a one-off; it fills the slot because we have limited numbers of slots.
Riley is more or less the centerpiece of most of our plans for improving Case 53 lives, and the lives of people with power incontinence like Damsel of Distress. We can understand her work, enhance her, and improve it. If Earth Bet methods can do anything about it, she can.
FunkyEntropy
Occasionally insightful, possibly grumpy
- Location
- Los Angeles
That's exactly what you said.
You're treating doing the right thing as a "slot", a quota, where once we hit some arbitrary amount we need not devote more of our limited time.
I have laid out, in detail, the fact that Saint has nothing on us that we haven't already freely given away to multiple people.
I have gone on to point out that we can fix Ascalon, even if it was triggered, because Teacher managed to pull it off in a warzone with salvaged equipment.
You have not addressed this, nor has Datakim.
Such as what?
I fail to see what devastating first strike Saint and his team of five are supposed to pull off on us.
So please, be specific.
Yeah... just noticed this. Saki having this makes wonder what her sister is gonna get.
I am treating one facet of doing the right thing as a quota.
But Case 53s and parahumans are not our only mission here, and there are other places where our intervention yields disproportionate results.
Not to mention our primary mission.
So if I was unclear, I apologize.
I would dispute this.
We have only been operative for about two months, and only been of any real prominence for about 4 weeks.
That is one advantage of a young-leaning Assembly, by the way; it's less believable to accuse them of secret conspiracies when they weren't capes at the time said conspiracies were active.
*shrug*
I count non-obvious actions as those too.
Taylor would not push Medicine quite so strongly, for example, if she wasn't trying to understand parahuman physiology to help the people her colleague Prayer cares about.
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Link? Because I don't recall any solid plans of yours to fix an Ascalon activation that leaves her just like she is currently.
The entire argument you've made could be used against Lisa as well; just change the names and pronouns.
Because Ziz is quite capable of setting us up, like she did at the Cradle.
Because murders tends to leave evidence if people know where to look.
Because we are not the government, we do not set prison policy or determine where people spend jail sentences.
We are Alchemicals, not Solars.
Let me quote myself:
And unlike his Thinkers/Tinkers, we are actually familiar with her code.
Do you want me to do the numbers for you?
- Location
- U.S.
I cannot accept that, I'm sorry. I frankly cannot even comprehend how you can think like that.
Doing right is never a quota, because it does not have a limit or a completion state. It's a way of doing things, not an act in itself.
Lisa does not have unlimited access to Dragon and so knows far less about us and our plans, strengths and weaknesses. She is also in a position where the consequences would hit much harder and is less fanatical/mastered (and has other motives such as Aisha being close to us). Beyond that you are right. Lisa is potentially very problematic to us, especially after she learns about Sakis charms and VoV. The damage she could do is far smaller than Saint, but she could cause trouble. How does this in any way reduce the danger Saint poses?
You are basically repeating the argument you did earlier with Cauldron, just swapping Lisa this time. Just because Cauldron and Lisa are potentially risky to us, does not somehow make Saint a non-issue.
It IS possible to have multiple opponents/potential-enemies/enemies. It is also possible to take steps to do our best to counter them all. In Lisas case, forcing her to accept the truth about entities and shards somehow might make her doubt her beliefs (or something else). Cauldron will not act against us until we either prove too dangerous (for example when we are about to summon Auto), or until they believe they have gained everything they can from us.
Saint however is unstable and could do anything at any moment. We have no clue what his current mental state is, or what he thinks about Auto now. If he has come to believe that Auto is somekind of super-AI that he has no control over? Well, he might do anything.
Given the perception abilities Taylor has (including optical charms), the lack of dna evidence alchemicals leave, the ability to shroud and hide even from shards (and hide others), Sakis ability to shapeshift and so on, the probability that Ziz could somehow get us via Saint is absurdly small. Besides, if she can, then we are fucked already. (see next point).
Which is ofcourse why we obeyed the law and the legal kill-orders made by the courts on extremely dangerous terrorists parahumans of great power that have murdered thousands upon thousands, instead of illegally faking their deaths in order to hand them over to a vast conspiracy that is manipulating everyone, performing highly illegal human experiments and doing all other sort of fun stuff and will likely do who knows what with the parahumans we gave them. Oh right, we did what was beneficial to us personally, regardless of laws or goverment.
Compared to what we have already done (giving massively dangerous parahumans to a conspiracy group in exchange for rewards), sending Saint to time-stasis would be insignificant in comparison. Sorry, but its too late to use this excuse when we have already told the goverment and its laws to go to hell. Besides, our ultimate allegiance is to Auto, not US goverment (though it would be nice if both benefit ofcourse), and based on his views on Dragon, Saint is quite likely to view Auto as a horrific threat.
Oh, and if Ziz could somehow magically get us with Saint, she sure as hell could with Cauldron (and cause us far more damage). Her post-cog can probably tell that we teleported rather than killed those people. (and if not, we can hide Saint from Ziz the same way). Heck, she might even give the evidence that we saved several of the most infamous members of S9 for personal profit to Saint fo extra irony.
Anyway, off to bed. Night.
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Lisa is a verdammt Thinker 7.
The S-class parahuman she has unlimited access to in this case is Wyld, even though she does have Dragon and Narwhal's ears.
She has actively attempted to disrupt Alchemical recruitment by messing with Aisha.
She helped set up our father to attempt to kill us, and her intelligence was instrumental in helping Coil put a bullet in our mouth.
Materially, she has interfered more with our cause than Saint has.
We aren't out to gank her, or name her a pressing threat.
Saint is not a non-issue.
Saint is a pawn.
As he is, no one else can wield him.
Every other action you have proposed taking puts him into play for actual players to use.
To turn him from an occasional irritant to an actual problem.
Mentally unstable?
Citation please.
You do realize that we are pretty high visibility, right?
And that a period when we vanish, followed by the abduction/death of a sometime adversary will draw attention, right?
Or that Saint's lair has cameras, and possibly off-site backups?
Our opposition isn't stupid.
We exchanged 3 people for information leading to saving the city of Philadelphia, and the worlds.
That was our job.
The disposition of the Niners in particular is arguably covered by the note that gave us tactical command during the crisis, which went "Granted unusual breadth of discretion."
We would have reported it in by now if not for the risk of, y'know, setting off the verdammt apocalypse.
We do not rule.
We are not in this shit for personal gain, else we'd sit in a lab and crank out spidersilk and tinkertech for money like the Youth Guard would like us to do.
We are not even in it for revenge, or we wouldn't have put our body between Siberian and Lisa, or traded Manton to Cauldron instead of putting a bullet in his head.
So please do not equate trading Manton, Mannequin and Shatterbird in return for favors with doing our job for fucking corruption.
Cauldron are based in a different dimension.
Ziz has interfered extradimensionally once that we know of, and that was to bring over the Travellers.
She does not operate on Earth Aleph, or Earth S, or Earth Tsav.
Her base of operations is here.
If any fuckery is going down, the main focus will be here.
And Saint is based here.
Do the math.
Explain how trading those three saved the city of Philadelphia. Because it didn't. We traded those three for nebulous favors in the future.
Let me quote myself again, with emphasis:
Worlds refers to Earth Bet and the other Earths in the Nowhereverse, as well as Autochtonia.
Furthermore, tell me how you planned to identify Siberian's Master without suffering personnel losses if not for Cauldron tipping us off.
We got mention that if Siberian got word of Riley's capture, it/she would go on a rampage, while Alexandria was down, Legend was out of theater, and Bulldozer was brain-dead.
And with Prayer low on Essence, too.
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I think you are arguing different things from what I am.
Taylor is in effect a public servant.
She gets paid ~400-800 dollars a week(plus trustfund) to push herself harder and further than a neurosurgical resident would be allowed to.
And with bonus chance of death and serious injury on top.
Her abilities are such that she has to pick where to apply effort for maximum results. That's Duty.
The lesser things she does, the smaller focuses of attention?
Those are personal.
That's the Doing Right bit I am referring to. Sometimes they coincide.
My apologies if I'm unclear.
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- Location
- U.S.
Well, I'd like to, but that apparently has had no support since well before I caught up. I'd have tried to have her tossed in a cell after Behemoth, but whatever, not a thing now.
No, you aren't unclear. You seem to see doing good as a thing that is a goal in and of itself, when it isn't. It's a how, tied into method and results, not just results. Thus, it should be a part of both personal and organizational things. There is no bar you have to meet as to "right things", merely standards to follow in everything. It's a part of everything, not just what we do as personal projects.
Irrelevant to the point under discussion, as I was not talking about that.
And the info about Manton was given as part of the "Hey, consider giving us three members of the S9 and we'll owe you a few favors." deal.
Entirely relevant, because Taylor's Motivation is relevant to her IC decisions.
The info about Manton was given to help us find him, among other reasons.
Doesn't change the fact that we probably wouldn't have found him otherwise without a bunch of shish-kebabed people.
First time we met, Siberian cost us a leg, and the Hunt we were defending lost half their dogs, and a couple limbs.
Second time, Alexandria lost an arm and a section of her spine.
There were good tactical reasons to trade his ass, even if I don't believe I voted for it.
Why do you suppose we wanted Cauldron to owe us a few favors?
We certainly don't need the money; if cash was all we wanted we'd simply killed the Niners and turned in their heads.
Furthermore, we strictly speaking don't need vials for Alchemicals.
So tell me, why do you think the Alchemical entrusted with saving both the Nowhereverse and Autochtonia wanted a couple favors from a secret conspiracy whose aim is to save Nowhereverse humanity?