Alchemical Solutions [Worm/Exalted] Thread 23: We Wonder Where Who Wanders When Watchers Wane

Pre-Vote Running Tally: Who Are Your Top 3 Choices For Orichalcum?


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On the other hand, the ability to remove an intimacy via social attack that would not be Obvious and could be done at range (no spiking) is potentially a very potent power. Heck, I wonder if we could use that to help remove Saint as an issue by doing social attacks through Dragon (I think you have even suggested that?). Even if Taylor does not know everything, she might know enough to think theres no harm in trying.
Based on Taylor's presented attitude about mental influence, I suspect otherwise. She's just too responsible to unleash mental influence at unknown targets, not to mention she has no idea how deeply Saint is in Dragon.
Hmm. I can't be sure but I think Gromweld shot down the idea of imprisoning Endbringers.
Correct, but that was due to mass and effective strength scores, it is functionally impossible to force them in.

Not to mention that he is likely strong enough to resist the imprisoning effect for quite a while (Prayer took 9 minutes), and we know from SoPA that it IS possible to damage the shard-charm. Capturing Scion in and initiating the imprisonment might well result in him blasting straight down with his golden-beam-of-death in an effort to destroy the shard entirely.
Not quite. Inside the Sanctum, the shard connection is cut off, so Scion would lose any shard powers that aren't hosted and fueled directly from his body, crippling all the bigger effects. If that's true, it would do fairly small amounts of damage to Scion's true form, and the primary value would be a captive Scion instance to run a personality assessment/knowledge sweep on.

Which is to say it'd be much the same as him getting hit by the G-Driver. He'd be back in a few hours at most, and he'd be PISSED.
I wonder if the shard-charm can spy on other dimensions too. If nothing else, being able to spy on Cauldrons meeting place would have potential value.
It should be possible provided she's been there before. Cauldron would probably not be dumb enough to do that though.

I will say that this was a bit of a positive note. If Taylor is willing to slap Iris away (even if only gently), it might mean she is getting over the shock and fear of VoV. Maybe the first signs that this (Iris of Innovation (Keep His Terrifying Power Focused Or Risk Vengeance) [Emotion|Anxiety] ●●●○) intimacy is potentially changing? I would like to think so anyway.
Its progress!
Presumably Ascalon would work far more effectively here, since Dragons chains are fully intact. Can you remember how Ascalon exactly does what it does? Does it (potentially?) destroy her beyond recovery, or basically just put her into a coma? Was her recovery in canon possible due to Ascalon not being designed to destroy her utterly, or because the changes Colin had made prevented Ascalon from finishing the job fully?
The specifics are unknown, but Dragon was disabled, not dead.
Possible causes:
-Saint recognizes that they need Dragon to fight Scion. He uses a modified Ascalon to disable her for fear of his personal safety(justified by Dragon finding him), essentially holding her hostage. Not much point to surviving Dragon if Scion kills everything, but at the same time, not much point fighting Scion if he was going to die anyway.

-Dragon's changes(Trigger, Colin's mods) rendered her too difficult to kill for good by Ascalon.

-Ascalon was originally intended to restore Dragon to maintenance mode, a compact, inactive package, Richter just relabeled it.
Also, is it canon that Ascalon is actually a complex cyberwarfare AI, or is that just your deduction? I mean if it works by exploiting Dragons inbuilt blind-spots as Gromweld said, it does not need to be somekind of super-advanced adaptive AI. I mean if Dragon does not fight back, basic intelligence might well be enough. Is it possible that Ascalon is actually a very crude program (atleast in comparison to Dragon as she is now), that works simply because Dragon just stands there and does nothing to fight back while Ascalon is whacking her to bits with a large stone?
Two answers to this:
-Richter is not a software Tinker. He's an Artificial Intelligence Tinker. Everything he makes is some form of artificial intelligence to do the job for him. Thus as Ascalon, Robin Hood, and similar tools made by Richter, they are all AI packages.

-Gromweld said so.

Whats problematic is that there was no need for her to act the way she did. Crawler was not going anywhere. She could have just waited for Taylor to get into range with the super-eye charm that Alexandria knew Taylor had, and lost nothing. It was not so much stupidity, but rather arrogance and pride that ended up with her half-dead and everything wrecked.

However this was ultimately a symptom of a larger issue. Alexandria believed she knew best and far better than some ward (exalted or not), and she is used to knowing best and always being in charge (of PRT, of protectorate, and partially Cauldron). If she is exalted and enhanced even further, that will just strenghten that belief.
In fairness to her, time is truly at a premium there. Every minute counts when Crawler is coming up to wreck shit, and her Thinker power means she's used to thinking faster and making decisions more efficiently than anyone around her. 99% of the time, people telling her to wait have nothing relevant to contribute, and were acting on the presumption that she was just a super brute.

That said, if she were to be Exalted she'd be even more justified, so yes.

Given Dragons importance, fame and close friendship with Taylor, I could see Saki being willing to use the memory reading function (and her social skills) to find out any such dead man switches and how to disable them. And possibly remove the memory that Dragon is an AI (or otherwise block Saint from blabbing).
Noting again that Taylor does not know the degree of threat Saint poses to Dragon. Even Dragon doesn't know, she considers him something to fear, but she has no idea just how deep he can go.

Secondly, this would be horrible for PR and is pretty illegal to do. We could get away with it with enough effort, but again, what he CAN do is not what he HAS done, and the public learning...well, it'd be a huge mess.
If it really became a binary choice, I have no doubt Taylor would be willing to kill Saint (legally or not) to save Dragon.
If it even became a choice at all, Saint had fucked up big time.
Currently he's a low priority item on a giant list of urgent, critical or disastrous items. He's our "When we have some free time" project.

Frankly, I expect the kickoff point to be when we start working seriously on liberating Dragon.
Armsmaster made a nanothorn halberd.
The nanothron halberd couldn't get past a certain point with leviathan because of how dense he was.

Citation? Because I believe it was noted that the nanothorns worked more slowly as he got to the core material(justifiably, given the greatly increased mass compared to anything else), but they worked.
Do Alchemials have stuff that boosts diplomacy to powerful levels like solars do?
Yes, pretty much all of them are installed except the "Smell Good" one and the "Mind Blowing Sex+attractiveness" one.
 
Soul injection would be nice (I would be interested in seeing what it does to Accord and possibly Citrine and others who might volunteer), but that won't actually help Auto either. Not unless we do it on some massively large scale (which would require us to figure out how to create new souls from nothing), and start a huge church for Auto in order to supply him with lots and lots of essence from worship.
Soul injection would help a good bit with the process, mainly because souls are essence factories, allowing us to speed up Iris's recharge rate as we set it up.
Actually, I wonder if we should create multiple ones around the cradle, since presumably they would all start spreading only after contacting the cradle? Though we would probably want atleast one in a good defensible and hospitable location, so that we could eventually turn that one into a manse (and then a vat-complex), while the rest were left to convert the world.
Based on the description, the demesne will form one line to reach the Cradle, then will begin radiating new lines out as it gains power. Where these lines intersect, additional demesnes will form, which will then also begin radiating new lines. Think of it as a fractal pattern, deploying additional demesnes allow us to alter the points where new nodes will form, if for instance, we want to avoid putting a future demesne site in the hands of warlords.
Personally, I was kinda hoping for more detail before deciding. I mean I thought Iris was already capable of implanting soul gems?
Iris contained souls, and knows how to construct them, but implanting them in an essenceless human requires additional research. You aren't just building a soulgem here, this one has to be able to contain a soul(so it must be made of essence charged materials forged by Iris, or using the Cradle), scan the recipient's mind and imprint it into the soul inside, THEN convert the body to essence via the soul and plug it in.

This is a nontrivial, major research project. Fortunately there's Riley to handle the Nowhereverse side of the reading.
 
However if it would be quick and easy to swap, we could even do so with arrays. For example, in some situations stealth would not be necessary. If we are going into combat with an endbringer, being able to put "Subtlety Protocols Array" into storage, and replace it with something focused more on being a better and stronger fighter would be handy. Likewise, temporarily replacing "Tactical Supremacy Array" with something else might be handy, if we planned to tinker for example. Or replacing it with social charms, if we were planning to go out to somekind of social event (so we would not be utterly reliant on Saki).
Oh, I get that, but what I was talking about with 'investment' was that it's a lot less worth it without the sort of investment where we're able to swap out multiple Charms (i.e. swap an array for an array, rather than an array for...1 or 2 Charms?) Also, going into combat with an EB without Optical or HAC? Really?
Do Alchemials have stuff that boosts diplomacy to powerful levels like solars do?
Yes - far more focused on Social groups than Solars though (both as targets and what you're using them for).
Main benefits are:
-Repairs in small or otherwise inaccessible spaces. Consider that Philadelphia has been pretty wrecked, road networks cut off, buildings collapsed, mined, or otherwise rendered unfit for human occupation. The main challenge of working in this condition is bringing the work crews to the site, and then their machinery, followed by ensuring their safety throughout the process.
I don't think we should really be concerned with 'small' with this sort of thing - but otherwise, yes. On thinking on it more, it'd possibly be more useful than I initially gave it credit for.
-Construction in hazardous environments. Consider Brockton Crater. Desolate, radioactive, etc, etc. Could be something we can work with, but it'd be expensive and a long commute to do anything with the location. But the Cradle is there, so we need to work there.
But why would we need to was more my point. There's no point in 'reconstructing' BB, no one would move back now (and similar in most other hazardous environments - why would we want to build there?). Cradle access, yes, but we've done it before - this'd be useful for doing it again, but not necessary, and considering this' a unique opportunity? Possibly for a more 'defensible' Manse location or something, but we'd be sinking a lot into that anyway.
Well, that's why it's not going to go very well with the public. Anyway it's been explained previously, the Cradle is releasing a trickle of essence physics material, but it's individual particles/molecules, released into the air, it's too dispersed to make much of a difference, kind of like how urinating in a swimming pool is not going to make it significantly saltier. Enter a creature to accumulate and concentrate the material, then incorporate that into it's biology and excrete it. That may be able to raise local concentrations more rapidly...well at least depending on how essence physics qualities translate when you put one essence charged carbon particle into a long protein chain.

Assemble that into a coral/wax like substance for subsequent use.
It might be able to raise local concentrations, but it wouldn't do anything for global concentrations, and that's the main concern. I don't know if we'd really get any greater benefit from higher local concentrations of 'free' Essence?
-Saint recognizes that they need Dragon to fight Scion. He uses a modified Ascalon to disable her for fear of his personal safety(justified by Dragon finding him), essentially holding her hostage. Not much point to surviving Dragon if Scion kills everything, but at the same time, not much point fighting Scion if he was going to die anyway.
I doubt this one - this was before they knew about Scion, so as far as Saint was concerned, it might've been Dragon who was the Apocalypse. I cannot see him willingly not actually ending her with that in mind.
 
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Soul injection would help a good bit with the process, mainly because souls are essence factories, allowing us to speed up Iris's recharge rate as we set it up.
That's a very interesting point.

All we need to do, is stick souls in a few thousand people and convince them to pray to Iris. Then, Demesnes for everyone! Yay!
 
I don't think we should really be concerned with 'small' with this sort of thing - but otherwise, yes. On thinking on it more, it'd possibly be more useful than I initially gave it credit for.
Small as in physically difficult to access or otherwise unstable spaces.
For human crews to repair a bomb damaged building is unacceptably dangerous.

For disposable bugs to plug cracks and fractures with filler means stabilizing them for a human crew to operate in.

But why would we need to was more my point. There's no point in 'reconstructing' BB, no one would move back now (and similar in most other hazardous environments - why would we want to build there?). Cradle access, yes, but we've done it before - this'd be useful for doing it again, but not necessary, and considering this' a unique opportunity? Possibly for a more 'defensible' Manse location or something, but we'd be sinking a lot into that anyway.
If we're going to build some facility at the Cradle(and we do want to, because it's the primary non-Iris source of essence charged material and needs to be secured), then the ability to expand it at our discretion is fairly valuable. One issue we're going to have to work with is that large scale constructions can involve upwards of a hundred people, and equipment to match. We can't keep calling in outside favors to build a secure facility. At least, not if you want it to stay secure.

Mind you, this is exploratory argument, not persuasive. Currently I'm personally leaning towards the medical nanites to help sell Bonesaw's redemption and to evade Pod People fears.
It might be able to raise local concentrations, but it wouldn't do anything for global concentrations, and that's the main concern. I don't know if we'd really get any greater benefit from higher local concentrations of 'free'Essence?
Consider that with local concentrations we can produce essence environment rooms, for scientists to take a crack at assisting with understanding the physics differentials. That we need essence charged materials to create artifacts(and not just freshly charged either, since age and experiences matter even for objects) and build manses.

Gromweld had said I think...3 threads ago we might want to look into some means of employing the Cradle's one molecule at a time transmutation to increase efficiency. One of these is to find ways to cheat, allow a single mote of essence to convert a larger amount by contagion.
That's a very interesting point.

All we need to do, is stick souls in a few thousand people and convince them to pray to Iris. Then, Demesnes for everyone! Yay!
I'd also point out that these people would be putting out traces of Essence in everything they do, with every stunt they make. Small amounts, but we need quite a lot and they add up.
 
We gave Iris a lot of tinkertech stuff to use. He and Riley made something (Taylor helped, but was mainly working on her own power armor)! What did they build?
Looking:
- Soulgem Injector (Result: We can en-soul others once the PRT scientists finish scratching their heads. Riley was the initial test, so she's got a soul now if we choose this.)
The benefits to our conversion project are obvious.
And if we can do it to Riley, we can probably do it to Accord as well, which might help with his mental issues.

This opens up the possibility of Enlightening people, and possibly putting thaumaturgy, sorcery and TMAs in play.
It also makes it even less likely for anyone to throw Riley in jail.
And the soulgem makes it much easier to track her.

On the flipside, we would get pointed questions about elective medical procedures on minors.
And to be honest, I'm not entirely sold on implanting soulgems in Earth Bet people; we do know they aren't necessary for souls, after all.

- Medical Nanites (Result: Grey goo that heals! Basically Project Laz-R-Us from Schlock Mercenary without soldier-mode, so treated Earth-Bet humans gain self-healing and limited immortality. This is mechanically a Shaping effect, so our Alchemicals probably won't get much use from it for themselves.)
This arguably has the single greatest impact of everything on the list.
It drastically improves the survivability of PRT-aligned capes, and importantly, PRT Troopers.
A moderately gimped version could probably be used for treating casualties in disaster zones, which is a big deal for Philadelphia at the moment.

Furthermore, it ostentatiously reinforces Riley's value to the PRT/Protectorate in general, and society in general, which makes the whole "don't throw me in the Birdcage" argument a lot easier to sell; it's sad but true that people will turn out more on self-interest than principle. It also gives her a leg up on that whole debt to society thing.

And it makes the point to the PRT/Protectorate as well as the US/Canadian govt that Iris actually cares about survival of the squishy humans about here; after VoVs performance, a little reassurance might be in line.
All in all, this option strengthens our baseline government and PR support, and helps buy support for things like Project Camden, and further projects in our current line.

- New Charm (Result: ONE Shards of the Exalted Dream charm now available, but one of Taylor's current charms was cannibalized to make it. We choose which charm, and may customize it a bit because SotED is wonky.)
Pass.
I really don't want to give up 2nd Perception, unless the GM states that it's necessary/makes his life easier.
Information really is crucial to everything we do, and being able to boost our ability to acquire it matters.

- Body Double (Result: Tinkertech non-sentient humanoid drone that Taylor can control with SoPA that mimics Husk-Sculpting Apparatus - now Taylor can be social AND be in the lab! It's basically a Terminator-X with only rudimentary neural hardware. Potential for mass-production later.)
Let's be clear: I want this.
I want this.

Of all the potential options on the table, this is way and far away the coolest.
We'd basically be going full Skynet/Technocracy on this setting.
It would mean that in extremis, there would be two Taylors on every battlefield, both wearing power armor.

And the jokes would be gold, especially with other Alchemicals using HSA; you could have multiple people looking alike, and without detailed scans and possibly Essence vision, you'd never be able to tell who.

Unfortunately, this is a personal power thing that largely applies to Taylor.
Also Dragon, since it gives her a leg up on building a body.
And while I can see Iris making it as a gift, I'm not sure he'd prioritize it over everything else. Taylor certainly wouldn't want him to.

I just hope it's an option later on.
Maybe we can spend free actions on it?
- Write-In (Needs to be something that, thematically, an Iris/Riley collab would have produced.)
Dunno.
 
I mostly just want to see people's reactions. Both when they're told the system gives them a soul, and when the system is actually used on them.

Oh, also accelerating progress toward Bet adhering to motonic physics. That sounds like it'd be loads of fun, given how likely it is to utterly fuck most forms of precog.
 
I mostly just want to see people's reactions. Both when they're told the system gives them a soul, and when the system is actually used on them.

Oh, also accelerating progress toward Bet adhering to motonic physics. That sounds like it'd be loads of fun, given how likely it is to utterly fuck most forms of precog.

On one hand: fuck Simurgh and Scion; on the other hand, Contessa is too important.
 
The thing is this was after Ascalon was released. You don't need the source code if it's a virus actively circulating around the net at the time!
Also, Teacher did have a sample of Ascalon/Dragon's vulnerabilities. He has Saint under his influence.
1)It wasn't circulating around the net.
Ascalon was injected into her systems the same way Saint could get in and look.

2)Teacher did not have a sample of either.
Saint specifically mentions when being interrogated by TT and Defiant that he went out of his way to ensure Teacher had no contact with Dragon; had no contact with any other member of his team even, besides himself.
Teacher's crew went in from a cold start.

Assuming of course, it doesn't do permanent damage to her before we can start to work. Which is a legitimate risk, unless already at a workstation with a team to reverse engineer it.
Saint in canon used the Cripple Dragon option. He could have used the Delete version instead of encrypting and locking her up.
1)We saw what it did in canon.
And furthermore, we can do literally Perfect crafting work, given that we have all the Omnitools submods.
Not really an issue IMO.

2) Ascalon is not tunable. There is no Cripple Dragon option as opposed to Delete; just Y/N.
Saint certainly doesn't understand it's details enough to modify it.

Furthermore, remember the original name of the program/AI: Iron Maiden.
Richter's names tend to be descriptive: Robin Hood steals, Manhunter hunted people down, Iron Maiden binds and constrains.
It shuts her down and encrypts everything. If you want her entirely gone, you can then destroy the backups.
 
And to be honest, I'm not entirely sold on implanting soulgems in Earth Bet people; we do know they aren't necessary for souls, after all.
One simple factor is without a Lethe and Ewer of Souls to recover them after death, where would the souls go? It'd be problematic I think, if the ensouled dead began forming pockets of necrotic essence or the like.
 
I'm leaning towards a write in or the soul gem thing.
Do you think people are going to trust grey goo?
Why not? It's nanotech.
People already accept healing from Strikers like Wyld, and drink godknowswhat from Tinker/Strikers like Cask.
Not really seeing the difference in what is essentially another drug.

I mean, do you think people will accept injections from Saki?
Then no issue with nanites.
 
One simple factor is without a Lethe and Ewer of Souls to recover them after death, where would the souls go? It'd be problematic I think, if the ensouled dead began forming pockets of necrotic essence or the like.
Do note that we actually still have an Essence conduit to Autochtonia.
And that conduit is two-way.
We need to set up something local, but it's not as if there are no shortterm options here.

Iris has a limited number of souls, though.
And I'm pretty sure that soulgems being as conspicuous as they are open you up for anything from religious hate crimes(Kill the robot worshippers!) to being abducted for SCIENCE!
Plot hooks, sure.
 
Why not? It's nanotech.
People already accept healing from Strikers like Wyld, and drink godknowswhat from Tinker/Strikers like Cask.
Not really seeing the difference in what is essentially another drug.

I mean, do you think people will accept injections from Saki?
Then no issue with nanites.
Also it's not like they are going to be remotely near mass production for a fair while. Everyone taking them up is going to be people in dangerous careers, who believe in Weaver's judgment after a week in hell.

Curiously, all the biotech here implies a future ability to mass produce/maintain the stuff, when normally this is Tinker-locked.
I'm guessing this is because Iris does have the necessary skills to figure out how the Tinkertech works, discern it's principles, cut the flaws and trim the blackboxes out.
Do note that we actually still have an Essence conduit to Autochtonia.
And that conduit is two-way.
We need to set up something local, but it's not as if there are no shortterm options here.

Iris has a limited number of souls, though.
And I'm pretty sure that soulgems being as conspicuous as they are open you up for anything from religious hate crimes(Kill the robot worshippers!) to being abducted for SCIENCE!
Plot hooks, sure.

To reiterate, I'm focusing on exploratory arguments at the moment, not persuasive. The whys and hows of soulgems indicate that they would be a pretty massive boon at this phase of the project, as every single motonic human created by reliable means is a great asset in cutting down Iris charge time and expanding the amount of Essence in the environment.

Iris certainly has a limited supply, but I believe he would be able to CREATE souls given the right supplies.
The issue is investigating said supplies would be difficult with few local souls.
 
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Why not? It's nanotech.
People already accept healing from Strikers like Wyld, and drink godknowswhat from Tinker/Strikers like Cask.
Not really seeing the difference in what is essentially another drug.

I mean, do you think people will accept injections from Saki?
Then no issue with nanites.

Reprogramable. Meanwhile injections from Saki are a 'power'
 
...no reprogrammable nanotechnology is quite another thing altogether from a regeneration enhancement. The whole thing with nanotech is that stable nanotech and reprogrammable nanotech simply don't go together.

And also that sort of nanotech is not Bonesaw's domain. Look to Armsmaster instead.

That's what we're going to tell people, but is that what they are going to believe?
 
Reprogramable. Meanwhile injections from Saki are a 'power'
Dude, stem cells are reprogrammable, and used in treatments.
Normal human cells are reprogrammable; we just do it via gene therapy and drugs.

What I assume you are referring to is remote reprogrammability, via wireless or some infectious agent.
Which would be insane in a retail product.
Do Iris the courtesy of assuming he's not stupid, and has paid attention to some of the things Bonesaw did with biology.
That's what we're going to tell people, but is that what they are going to believe?
Yes.
Because Saki.
EDIT
Hell, even Taylor would be rolling Cha 3 + Presence 5 + Stunt 2, or peak human dice rolls to sell it, without resorting to SPU.
 
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Has anyone brought up the fact that soulgem implantation is horribly, potentially permanently scarringly painful? I feel like that might be relevant.
 
Has anyone brought up the fact that soulgem implantation is horribly, potentially permanently scarringly painful? I feel like that might be relevant.
As performed by mortal thaumaturges in Autochtonia? Sure.
As performed by Autobot across a pinhole? Certainly.
As performed by a 3CD in the Nowhereverse? Who knows?
 
Has anyone brought up the fact that soulgem implantation is horribly, potentially permanently scarringly painful? I feel like that might be relevant.
Saki can help with that, if it is a thing. It wouldn't be hard, and she could get used to her powers doing the same relatively simple procedure repeatedly. Also, maybe if Iris has enough souls, get one of our convention, likely either Saki or EOA, cult 1. I think cults can overlap membership without issues.
 
Basically I entirely agree wit your evaluation.
Soulgem Injector vs. Nanites imho Nanites win, they should make a lot more people amendable to essence physics.
The new charm looks kinda meh, but massive parallel Taylor being able to directly uplink into the internet could be amazing.
Clones! "It was a Taylorbot!" Also the best harem ending.
 
Also agreed with uju. Nanites first, both for utility and PR, followed by desperately hoping for a chance at the Soulsteel Terminator Battalion in the future.
 
As for our given options, I'm generally leaning towards the body double simply because it's so fucking cool. Also because it has thematic parallels to POD PEOPLE.

Personally I feel that we should try to acquire atleast one vial for Iris. And if Gromweld allows it, perhaps try to keep the other favors in the bank for the later future in order to see if Iris can get anything out of the vial. That way, we would be better informed on whats best (and give Saki time to get used to her powers and new existence, and hopefully calm down post Bonesaw-revelation).
Don't pay for something that we can get for free (or get paid for). Us taking a vial for Iris means that we'd be doing work for Cauldron which means that we should negotiate this as us doing a favor for them (or just as part of our work for Backing).

Helping the Case53s and stopping Cauldrons abuses would be something I would expect Taylor to want to do. And therse a good chance she is in a position to do so. We KNOW Auto atleast has the means to deal with broken Eden shards. Its quite possible that Iris could do the same, and we should atleast try to help them. Until and unless Iris tells Taylor that theres nothing he can do, continued brutal human experimentation is not necessary. Not when we could (possibly?) offer a better, kinder and more moral alternative.
Hmm, this gives me an idea for the write-in option: a Case 53 cure. While I hold out hope for a permanent solution, if @Gromweld doesn't want us to solve that problem so easily we could shoot for a daily pill or something that acts as a temporary fix.
 
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