After the Ashes: A Fire Nation Chancellor Quest

[The Laurent]

And I'm not even going to try for the occupied lands. Maybe we'll lose the new territories. We can't exactly promise Zuko will listen to reason. All we can do is try, and reap the benefits of an Amari who is keeping the military in line because his regiments on patrol in the capitol report that we are trying.



I have at no point pushed a zero reforms agenda. Clearly, we need to push reforms, hence the no one being happy part. The conversion of military industry to civilian alone is choosing to require a collective paperwork mountain of reform. The primary thing is to not be caught outright betraying the spirit of our arrangement, or reject a prompted to action Amari so he seeks someone else to be his ally instead.

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I mean, that's the thing. Or at least one of the major things. I don't necessarily think that "keeping the New Territories" is "reason" and you do?

 

[Earl Warren]

So my take here is that were in a wierd spot: Namiko is a Colonial elite who has values and ideals we'd consider abhorant. Namiko also dosent know what's coming, while we do. In that light…I think the most potentially in charecter thing and beneficial thing for us is to rat on Amari immediately. It gains us the trust of the Fire Lord and ties us deep into his program while actually being beneficial to the realm (getting ahead of any attempts to retain the territories by force and the anger of the Avatar) and puts him in a place to actually listen to us on keeping our home in our hands. Pretty rotten thing to do to Amari because of its self serving nature, but it's not like Namiko is a good person.

 

[The Laurent]

So my take here is that were in a wierd spot: Namiko is a Colonial elite who has values and ideals we'd consider abhorant. Namiko also dosent know what's coming, while we do. In that light…I think the most potentially in charecter thing and beneficial thing for us is to rat on Amari immediately. It gains us the trust of the Fire Lord and ties us deep into his program while actually being beneficial to the realm (getting ahead of any attempts to retain the territories by force and the anger of the Avatar) and puts him in a place to actually listen to us on keeping our home in our hands. Pretty rotten thing to do to Amari because of its self serving nature, but it's not like Namiko is a good person.

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I'm... less convinced that this is a good idea. If we're doing betrayal it should be more stringing him along, arguing just enough in favor of his priorities not to technically break the deal, and then pursuing our own interests.

 

[Timewarriors]

So my take here is that were in a wierd spot: Namiko is a Colonial elite who has values and ideals we'd consider abhorant. Namiko also dosent know what's coming, while we do. In that light…I think the most potentially in charecter thing and beneficial thing for us is to rat on Amari immediately. It gains us the trust of the Fire Lord and ties us deep into his program while actually being beneficial to the realm (getting ahead of any attempts to retain the territories by force and the anger of the Avatar) and puts him in a place to actually listen to us on keeping our home in our hands. Pretty rotten thing to do to Amari because of its self serving nature, but it's not like Namiko is a good person.

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Here the issue with that Zuko would just kick Amari out the door the moment we tell him and uh oh suddenly the military has a public figure head to rally behind who preaching anti fire lord sentiment.

 

[Randino Treviani]

I mean, that's the thing. Or at least one of the major things. I don't necessarily think that "keeping the New Territories" is "reason" and you do?

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I don't think it's a likely outcome, and I don"t think it's entirely in the realm of impossibility either, not that impossible things don't happen all the time in avatar. The point is to try, to uphold our first partnership, which Win and Saojo don't count as, in the name of good faith cooperation on Amari's part.

Whether it pans out in the long run is secondary to the immediate gains Amari colluding with us to reign in the army present towards avoiding further complications in the peace process. If you can't drop the pessimistic narrow focus on what we will and won't keep in terms of land and open your mind to the broad implications of the deal on our short to medium term situation, then we have nothing further to discuss.

So my take here is that were in a wierd spot: Namiko is a Colonial elite who has values and ideals we'd consider abhorant. Namiko also dosent know what's coming, while we do. In that light…I think the most potentially in charecter thing and beneficial thing for us is to rat on Amari immediately. It gains us the trust of the Fire Lord and ties us deep into his program while actually being beneficial to the realm (getting ahead of any attempts to retain the territories by force and the anger of the Avatar) and puts him in a place to actually listen to us on keeping our home in our hands. Pretty rotten thing to do to Amari because of its self serving nature, but it's not like Namiko is a good person.

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So, send Amari and his potential rebellious army fellows looking for new allies and given every reason to oppose zuko's peace as bloodily as possible, with whole communities potentially put to flame and the chain of command breaking down? This sounds like a good route where we accomplish our aims rather than giving the earth king fuel to demand the return of the old colonies to you?

 

[The Laurent]

I don't think it's a likely outcome, and I don"t think it's entirely in the realm of impossibility either, not that impossible things don't happen all the time in avatar. The point is to try, to uphold our first partnership, which Win and Saojo don't count as, in the name of good faith cooperation on Amari's part.

Whether it pans out in the long run is secondary to the immediate gains Amari colluding with us to reign in the army present towards avoiding further complications in the peace process. If you can't drop the pessimistic narrow focus on what we will and won't keep in terms of land and open your mind to the broad implications of the deal on our short term situation, then we have nothing further to discuss.

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Basically, it's not that I'm blind to the potential advantages of it, but as I said I think it'd be wiser to hold to the partnership on a technicality rather than throwing our back into it. And as such also be willing to drop it the moment it becomes even a little bit inconvenient, since the short-term advantages would already be accrued by that point.

 

[krinsbez]

Hey, question, and I apologize if I'm speaking out of turn and all, but are we assuming that Iroh was wrong when he said it needs to be Zuko who takes the throne?

Cuz at this juncture it sure feels like Iroh would've been a better choice.

 

[Randino Treviani]

Basically, it's not that I'm blind to the potential advantages of it, but as I said I think it'd be wiser to hold to the partnership on a technicality rather than throwing our back into it. And as such also be willing to drop it the moment it becomes even a little bit inconvenient, since the short-term advantages would already be accrued by that point.

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If Amari is capable of reigning in the Amari, he's capable of cutting them loose as well. I said short term, but I really should have put short to medium term. Again, now that we have prompted Amari to become invested in the outcome of this peace, it's foolish to expect him to just bow out gracefully if we turn on him. Genuine effort isn't much of a price to pay for genuine effort in return.

 

[Earl Warren]

I'm... less convinced that this is a good idea. If we're doing betrayal it should be more stringing him along, arguing just enough in favor of his priorities not to technically break the deal, and then pursuing our own interests.

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Fair, id still argue though that if we're good enough actors we could use this to get in Zukos trust circle but we probably are not good enough at acting,

 

[Limabot]

Earth kingdom stubbornness? The same thing that has people live in actual earth's various more hellish environments when emigration elsewhere has never been easier? Maybe they don't. I'm in a quest, working with what the QM gives me, with the intent of playing to character and make use of the opportunities provided to me. Maybe things don't work out. That happens. It doesn't mean I should dismiss the possibility of their being a working solution.

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I don't think the issue is in the Earthfolk just walking out of the New Territories, so much as it is in them leaving the Fire Nation and taking the New Territories with them. With a likely very angry populace and an incoming downsizing of the Army at the behest of an anti-colonial Fire Lord, there is essentially nothing the Fire Nation can do to keep them short of deposing Zuko and reneging on his reforms, which would both be a lose condition for the Quest and an invitation for Aang to get personally involved.

Also, when I pointed out Amari was a proto-fascist warmonger who should be taken with a large grain of salt, the QM actually liked the comment I mentioned that in. Thus, taking Amari's suggestion as a QM mandate is probably not the greatest idea.

Yes, there are going to be unfortunate compromises in the event of any sort of success which will lead to general dissatisfaction of all involved. Welcome to politics. I don't expect our character to finish as anyone's hero in this scenario, but I intend to uphold the deal to the best of the characters ability, and come success or failure, use the cooperations earned by doing so to limit the immediate negative impact and uncooperative and uncertain army can have on the overall situation.

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Things were not fine, but they have invariably worsened under Ozai, in accordance with the quests canon and the MCs own background. Maybe things were just bad instead of hellish, maybe they were slowly improving. None of this changes the possibility to improve things.

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The slavery was stated to be continuing rather than recently introduced, and inhumane treatment was the default even outside of that. The New Territories have been systemically broken for as long as they've been a thing.

Your entitled to your own opinion. I think it's worth trying.

Why would they have a voice because we gave the territories up? They've been occupied for decades. The earth kingdom is rife with toxic might makes right mentality.

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Whatever may be said about the mismanagement of the Earth Kingdom, at least Earthfolk living there aren't being classed as subhuman or being made into human chattel in its borders (for the most part).

We've agreed to push to keep the territories. Nothing has been said one way or another about how life in the territories may have to change in the face of compromises made to keep them. The goal is to uphold our agreement and use Amari's "honor" to force his own compliance and limit the obstacles to peace a resistant and difficult to reign in army might create in the absence of such an agreement.

We're getting something in return for attempting something with the understanding we likely won't be thanked by either side. It's better than starting at a disadvantage by rejecting Amari and allowing executed prisoners, ongoing battles, and rampant looting to throw a wrench into the works.

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While I voted for Namiko to talk to Zuko about it, I don't actually think keeping anything aside from maybe the Old Colonies would be good for anyone, or even work. If nothing else, I don't think Zuko would want to keep the New Territories if he knew what was happening in them. Rather, my main hope is to get Zuko to understand the situation in the Colonies (and by extent, the Army's logic) just enough so that he won't stick his foot in his mouth with promises he can't keep by the time peace negotiations roll around.

 

[Randino Treviani]

Hey, question, and I apologize if I'm speaking out of turn and all, but are we assuming that Iroh was wrong when he said it needs to be Zuko who takes the throne?

Cuz at this juncture it sure feels like Iroh would've been a better choice.

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Iroh is absolutely wrong about it needing to be Zuko who took the throne. It's him being unwilling to take it rather than Zuko being the only choice. If the old fart had an ounce of integrity or responsibility he'd take the throne himself so Zuko can both enjoy what remains of his childhood and get the proper education he would need to actually run the fire nation without the convenience of plot contrivance, and abdicate a decade later to a wiser, more settled and experienced Zuko.

Like seriously, as a man who's entire backstory is being a remorseful father who regretted his part in the war, throwing away Zuko's ability to live an unburdened youth and do things like, be a father himself before assuming the throne, was such a failure of writing.

 

[Zimmerwald1915]

So my take here is that were in a wierd spot: Namiko is a Colonial elite who has values and ideals we'd consider abhorant. Namiko also dosent know what's coming, while we do. In that light…I think the most potentially in charecter thing and beneficial thing for us is to rat on Amari immediately. It gains us the trust of the Fire Lord and ties us deep into his program while actually being beneficial to the realm (getting ahead of any attempts to retain the territories by force and the anger of the Avatar) and puts him in a place to actually listen to us on keeping our home in our hands. Pretty rotten thing to do to Amari because of its self serving nature, but it's not like Namiko is a good person.

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We're worried about Zuko (and thus ourselves) losing power to a paramilitary coup by the people we've just pissed off, and the whole point of our reaching out to Amari was to get the military to act (preemptively if necessary) against such a thing. The trouble with that is, any force that can put down a coup can just do a coup itself. And if we piss off Amari before his forces are neutralized, it just might.

Which is to say, get some bands of armed men loyal to us before we go betraying people.

 

[Temes1066]

[] … in the confines of one of the more opulent opium dens in the city, smoke spilling from her lips as she basked on the pillows of the comfortable private rooms that they set aside for individuals of higher standing. Her company there had been a medley of staffers and assorted officials from the ministries of Finance, as well as the usual gaggle of bankers, merchants, and clerks that so often accompanied them; while her politics did not align perfectly with the men and women of the mercantilist cliques, some common vices made it all too easy to bridge such divides. [Opium Addict, Neutral Ground, Mercantilist Contacts]

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Kyoumi Ara, the Minister of Agriculture, was the woman responsible for overhauling the occupational apparatus in the New Territories, leveraging the bulk production of opium as a method of control over the local populations; under her direction, the Fire Nation had carefully managed the addictions of its earthfolk laborers, rationing the supply of opium to ensure that they were kept both docile and cooperative when not on duty. It's public knowledge that she spends most of her free time in the pleasure dens of the city, enjoying the company of expensive courtesans before descending into the blissful haze of opiumistic bliss.

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@Granite, if we had picked Opium Addict, would that have given us an in with the Minister of Agriculture (Kyoumi Ara) and becuase of her Kafu Nishi, The Minister of Foriegn Intelligence.

 

[IamtooSleepy]

With a likely very angry populace and an incoming downsizing of the Army at the behest of an anti-colonial Fire Lord, there is essentially nothing the Fire Nation can do to keep them short of deposing Zuko and reneging on his reforms, which would both be a lose condition for the Quest and an invitation for Aang to get personally involved.

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I mean, Fire Nation proper might not, but those in the new territory - not just stationed soldies but also millitarized settlers who we might not have direct control over - absolutely can. While I think some, or even most of them, would be somewhat reluctantly willing to evacuvate, some of the most hardliners might continue to hold out.

Ultimately through, our problem is that we choose a character that is explictly said to have zero support base, so we aren't exactly in a good position to refuse an offer of support.

If nothing else, I don't think Zuko would want to keep the New Territories if he knew what was happening in them. Rather, my main hope is to get Zuko to understand the situation in the Colonies (and by extent, the Army's logic) just enough so that he won't stick his foot in his mouth with promises he can't keep by the time peace negotiations roll around.

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And also this, it's worth remember that we are still just a chancellor. Zuko is the one who has a final say on, well, pretty much everything. While we can advise him, so can Aang and the gaang.. who he would possibly trust more than us for now.

 

[Limabot]

Ultimately through, our problem is that we choose a character that is explictly said to have zero support base, so we aren't exactly in a good position to refuse an offer of support.

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While I agree with most of your assessment, the Socialite won the second vote, not the Spy. Thus, while the Colonialists are the most fragile support block, we do have at least some allies among the Modernists. While there aren't many of those among the immediate Cabinet, it is popular among much of the lower class population.

 

[Shogeton]

I figure that we can absolutely know that a lot of land is going to end up getting back to the Earth Kingdom. And some land we might not even have all that much objection too. But there's going to be difficult peace negotiations in the future, and those scales are going to be weighted. You don't want to easily give up thing that you might want to put on those scales later.

 

[Granite]

Which of our "friends" is the Boffin and which is the Eunuch?

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Qin is the Boffin, because he's a fucking nerd, and Saojo is the Eunuch, because he's chubby and (mostly) bald (not actually a eunuch).

Like, let's be clear here, this is blatantly not the case? It's blatantly not the case that things were fine in the New Territories until five years ago when they suddenly, like a switch was flipped at his ascension, stopped being fine.

Ozai obviously made things worse, but it doesn't come from nowhere.

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While I could see a non-horrible justification for keeping the Old Colonies in that it would be the least "disruptive" option for the people who are living there, there is far less ground for keeping the New Territories. Not only are their populations majority Earthpeople, but the introduction update to Namiko confirms that they have literal slavery around and have banned the Bending form for said majority of the populace.

They are quite literally a fantasy version of Manchukuo.
At best, keeping them would turn a good chunk of the Eastern Continent into essentially Apartheid South Africa. At worst, they would ignore Zuko and continue to be horrible warlord hellscapes.

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Just want to emphasize this: Ozai made things considerably worse in the colonies, but that was largely because he very much bought into the ethnic supremacy that became commonplace in the Fire Nation under Azulon. Those attitudes existed all the way back in the times of Sozin, though they grew over time as a way of justifying the treatment of the indigenous populations in Hu Xin. The main difference between Ozai and Azulon was that Ozai extended his bigotry against the mixed population into systemic policy, while Azulon restrained himself to excluding them from political society outside of the colonies. Even back in the times of Sozin, things like forced labor would be relatively commonplace: a not insubstantial number of early settlers found their homes in those of earthfolk who had been evicted, killed, or functionally enslaved by Fire Nations troops.

The Old Colonies are in a weird place in that there is a distinct pride in the mixed identity, one perhaps somewhat comparable to some of the attitudes that emerged in Latin America during the wars for independence. There is much less of a firm divide between them and the earthfolk populace - marriage, cohabitation, integrated workplaces, etc - but the colonial ethnic grip typically maintains a pretty tight grip on the levers of power politically and economically.

Question, @Granite , are we allowed to fucking lie? Can we say, "Oh, we'll definitely prevail upon him" and mostly spend our time arguing for the Old Colonies?

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Also, when I pointed out Amari was a proto-fascist warmonger who should be taken with a large grain of salt, the QM actually liked the comment I mentioned that in. Thus, taking Amari's suggestion as a QM mandate is probably not the greatest idea.

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You are absolutely allowed to lie - this is a political quest after all! With that in mind, you should also expect some characters to lie to you - or for their biases to color the information they provide - because they have their own interests. Amari has some very unique perspectives on the power of the throne and the state of the war given his background, though you can very much expect that to inform his positions and suggestions on certain issues. I will very much endeavor to avoid having any of these characters be a QM mouthpiece as I think it's more interesting if folks have to critically examine what they're saying

Hey, question, and I apologize if I'm speaking out of turn and all, but are we assuming that Iroh was wrong when he said it needs to be Zuko who takes the throne?

Cuz at this juncture it sure feels like Iroh would've been a better choice.

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No need to apologize! That's a fair perspective to take, though to take a moment to examine his reasoning...

Iroh is kind of irrevocably tainted by his past as an officer. We don't get much detail, but it's implied that he was both an effective and brutal commander, one who orchestrated a number of very substantial pushes into the Earth Kingdom. That's something that would color the international image of him, making it more difficult to organize peace given his direct involvement in the atrocities of the Fire Nation at its height. Beyond that, while he would have a strong support base in the military initially, his intentions of ending the war would erode it very quickly... and Ozai has put quite a bit of work into poisoning the well against him out of fear of Iroh attempting a coup of some kind.

By comparison, Zuko is young, close with the Avatar, energetic and motivated, and relatively untainted by the more severe crimes of the Fire Nation. Nobody really has strong opinions about him going in, something that likely allows him to more effectively create his own base of power untainted by prior involvements. You can expect that Iroh will be cropping up soon to support him - he won't just throw him into the snake pit on his own - but travel takes time and we're still in the first hours of Zuko's reign.

@Granite, if we had picked Opium Addict, would that have given us an in with the Minister of Agriculture (Kyoumi Ara) and becuase of her Kafu Nishi, The Minister of Foriegn Intelligence.

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It likely would have, yes, though you wouldn't have had an existing relationship with them.

 

[LordInquisitorAl]

Opium addiction once again proves mechanicaly optimal

 

[Earl Warren]

close with the Avatar

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So heres my question: What is the Fire Nation attitude towards the Avatar? They killed an entire people and made a very good start on killing another to try and destroy this one figure and spent a century fighting a war the Avatar does not approve of, but now Zuko's good relations with him is a plus? I get it if they believed they had been firmly defeated in the eyes of the General population and Military but thats not the case, I think? Its also interesting because to pursue the course they have, they basically need to spit in the face of ten thousand years of history. A very modernist Empire indeed.*

While were at it: What was the Race relations like in the era of Sozin which allowed the formation of the colonial culture and intermarriage while also fostering a Facist march of conquest for the entire world? Would be very interesting to say the least.


*Edit: My apologies did not see the context. From Irohs perspective, I very much can see the boost and it is nessicarry for world peace and the like. Still would be fascinated to see the general answer though because Id love to know just how the FN justifies their war with Divinity and Nature itself

 

[Limabot]

@Granite Thanks to responding to my earlier comments.
On an unrelated note, some of the people in the voting have made choices without putting them within a plan. Will those votes be taken into account and added to the option totals when necessary, or will they be ignored for the sake of simplicity?

 

[jwolfe_beta]

So heres my question: What is the Fire Nation attitude towards the Avatar?

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To quote the QM when I asked a similar question:

I honestly can't remember; how public was the 'the Avatar is against us, I have killed him and now we must destroy the Air Nomads to prevent him from returning' thing with Sozin? I know the royal family at the very least knew but can't recall in regards to the wider public.
---
"The Avatar is a running dog of the spirits and an enemy of humanity."

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[Earl Warren]

To quote the QM when I asked a similar question:

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Fair, still would like a tad more indepth explanation if the QM is willing. If not, totally fair and understood.

 

[Sir_Travelsalot]

So heres my question: What is the Fire Nation attitude towards the Avatar? They killed an entire people and made a very good start on killing another to try and destroy this one figure and spent a century fighting a war the Avatar does not approve of, but now Zuko's good relations with him is a plus?

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If Amari's words in the conversation we had are any kind of measuring stick, the Avatar is viewed as being no more than a possessed puppet of the spirits, devoid of identity. That said, since Zuko is managing cordial relations with the Avatar, that must obviously mean he's managed to figure out a way to mollify the spirits and through their vessel will be able to manipulate the 'decrepit fools clinging to the Earth Kingdom's feudal order' into forfeiting their more 'outrageous' demands against the 'glories' of the Great Endeavour.

Basically, success needs no other justification. But failure will permit none.

Outside of the Fire Nation's view, that Zuko is a friend to Aang means he's more likely to take it to heart if he goes 'yeah, my advisors are telling me that if I order the army to withdraw any further than these conquests, the nation will get buried in debt trying to move to peacetime, which means the soldiers will in all likelihood just refuse to actually stop fighting and conquering'. Or something to that effect.

 

[Randino Treviani]

I'd hope given the majority of people have bothered to properly vote for the deal and plan vote for the army general disposition and their four preferred actions, and those who haven't adjusted are relatively few in number.

Hello everyone, sorry for the delay on the chapter, things have been busy with Christmas! Voting moratorium of three hours on this one; as always, let me know if there are any issues. Voting will be structured a bit differently on this one: the first vote, the one relating to his deal, should be voted on freely. The second and third vote, those relating to the strategic posture of the army, should be handled in a plan vote as they directly relate to one another.

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That we'd handle the vote as outlined here. The QM has made ample effort to inform us how we should be voting and some of the voters have put in effort into correcting those who aren't. Whole point in telling us to use plan vote format. Sometimes people fail to follow directions, but if most of the voters are, why make exceptions?

 

[krinsbez]

It should be noted that how the Fire Nation feels about the Avatar ATM is not...particularly relevant, because Aang has just delivered a short, sharp lesson in the most fundamental truth of ATLAverse geopolitics; there is always a bigger fish, and it's name is The Avatar.

So far as anyone can tell, he just effortlessly curbstomped the most powerful firebender in the world today, with Sozin's Comet in the sky, and then proceeded to equally effortlessly destroy the greatest triumph of Fire Nation military technology in an instant.

The reality is, of course, considerably more complicated and nuanced, but that is what the public is going to see. So how they feel now isn't important, because in about a day, what they are going to feel is PANTS-WETTING TERROR. EDIT: from which their only protection is that he likes the new Fire Lord, hopefully someone realizes that and plays it up.

EDIT EDIT: why am I saying this, y'all already know that.

EDIT: EDIT: EDIT: Other sidenote: are we going to address the fact that, even though we are immune, it is canon that even with the giant burn scar, Zuko is an extremely attractive young man, which could be a potential asset.

Random thought for the future; having to convince the young men of the Fire Nation that it is not a good idea to set their faces on fire, just because it works for the Fire Lord.