After the Ashes: A Fire Nation Chancellor Quest

[NuclearConsensus]

[X] "She's my niece - a close association is dangerous, I know, but it might prove worthwhile here. She associates with the national associations here in Caldera, not Ozai's, the youth ones; I know you're not fond of the modernist movement, but it might be useful to attach them to our government, let some new blood into the court in order to take attention away from reliable hands such as yourself and I. It might make the conservatives uncomfortable, all the talk of meritocracy and youth, but I wouldn't mind throwing up a distraction to take attention away from us in these trying times…"
[X] "Revisionist" (Uncertain Clique, Personal Interest, Moderate Divergence)

 

[mcclay]

[X] "She's an associate of the Finance Minister - that alone is a good in, but I'm told that she also carries a fair amount of weight with the admiralty club and the mercantile concerns here in Caldera. The mercantilist clique is well established in court, though I find it unlikely that our new liege will share Ozai's disfavor; her appointment might prove a sufficient reinforcement to raise them back as a counterbalance to Ozai's clique and the militarists. Even more importantly, I imagine that she'll understand the importance of maintaining our economic position in these uncertain times; after all, if things falter too much, we risk far more than what is ultimately a minor dynastic squabble…"
[X] "Revisionist" (Uncertain Clique, Personal Interest, Moderate Divergence)

 

[Temes1066]

This is an interesting quest, I shall keep my eye on.

Yu Dao - I seem to remember that this is the place that eventually became Republic City in Canon. It also contained a Pro-Fire Nation earthbender who tried to do in Zuko at one point in the comics.

 

[Diadochi]

The Mercantilists are first and foremost pragmatists - change is a means, not an end, to them. That end being greater growth and prosperity (at least for them). Their idea of peace is essentially colonial pragmatism; their main problem with slavery and genocides being that it's inefficient.

The Colonials have no concrete proposals for change; their ideal would probably just be Sozin's empire but with more equal-opportunity initiatives. They are good partners for reform, but cannot drive it by themselves.

Even if our MC wants radical change, it will be difficult to accomplish if their powerbase is centred on these factions.

The Modernists, however, are a group of people whose ideologies are centred around making things better for everyone. I e. NOT committing genocide, wantonly cruel campaigns of plunder and destroying civilian populations. They are also driven by the youth and progressives - traditionally not demographics risk averse to struggle in the name of progress. Furthermore, the Modernists seem to have an egalitarian basis to their ideology, judging by their humanistic and meritocratic tendencies. This means that they are the only faction who wants to reform society into something that we'd not consider terribly stratified and authoritarian - none of the other factions seem to have much of an issue with aristocratic rule.

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That's a good point about the modernists being more egalitarian, they probably would be.I could see them being strong proponents of a larger more meritocratic central state. I would somewhat argue against the idea that their idealogy is about making things better for everyone. There ideology seems to about making things better for fire nation citizens and while they seem to be remarkably accepting of anyone becoming a fire nation citizen. They seem to less accepting of non-fire nation peoples in general. Believing that they need to toppled and the fire nation elavated to their rightfull place above them.

This sort of politics will I imagine make standing down from the war hard. As they seem to see it as an extension of their humanist philosophy.


On a broader note remember we are voting for a head of the government, not a head of state. Zuko is still gonna be around and I'm sure he will have his own ideas. It would be nice to have his support at least somewhat and the Modernists seem to be the faction that would be the most in opposition to him.

They are strident nationalists, they want to continue the war and even ignoring the idealogy. Zukos main support base in the fire nation is the fire sages. A group which rhe modernists would be almosts idealogicaly obligated to marginalised.

To tldr while the modernists may have large popular suppirt in the military and amongst the youth. They would almost have to fight Zuko on everything, both in the ways we would see reasonable (like the fire sages) but also in the ways we wouldn't (like continuing military ventures to spread "civilisation").

 

[Temes1066]

What ever Chancellor we pick. We are going to have get a new position in the Cabinet for ol' Qin, because the Ministry of Wartime Technology probably ain't going to stay around, if Zuko remains in charge.

Sure, Saojo the Minister of Infrastucture will still be around (even in peace you need Infrastucture) but a Minister of Wartime Technology is unnecessary, if you are committed to peace.

@Granite, are we going to be playing as Minister Qin or as the new Chancellor?

 

[Limabot]

That's a good point about the modernists being more egalitarian, they probably would be.I could see them being strong proponents of a larger more meritocratic central state. I would somewhat argue against the idea that their idealogy is about making things better for everyone. There ideology seems to about making things better for fire nation citizens and while they seem to be remarkably accepting of anyone becoming a fire nation citizen. They seem to less accepting of non-fire nation peoples in general. Believing that they need to toppled and the fire nation elavated to their rightfull place above them.

This sort of politics will I imagine make standing down from the war hard. As they seem to see it as an extension of their humanist philosophy.


On a broader note remember we are voting for a head of the government, not a head of state. Zuko is still gonna be around and I'm sure he will have his own ideas. It would be nice to have his support at least somewhat and the Modernists seem to be the faction that would be the most in opposition to him.

They are strident nationalists, they want to continue the war and even ignoring the idealogy. Zukos main support base in the fire nation is the fire sages. A group which rhe modernists would be almosts idealogicaly obligated to marginalised.

To tldr while the modernists may have large popular suppirt in the military and amongst the youth. They would almost have to fight Zuko on everything, both in the ways we would see reasonable (like the fire sages) but also in the ways we wouldn't (like continuing military ventures to spread "civilisation").

Click to shrink...

I thought the Fire Sages have been largely compromised by Fire Imperial propaganda during the 100 Years War, like all but one of the Sages at Roku's temple. I personally would suspect that Zuko's support would actually come more from lower class peoples tired of the War, urban intellectuals, and whoever around still respects the Dragon of the West and/or Avatar.

Personally, I see a more Radical Modernist as being one of the only options that could even have a chance of being reasonably anti-colonialist, as Mercantilists would prefer a shift over to Neoimperialism rather than actual reform, and the Colonials (who are specifically the regional nobility) rely on the Fire Nation's continued presence on the Earth Continent to maintain power (and thus will cause issues if/when Aang tries to turn the area into the United Republic).

 

[Diadochi]

thought the Fire Sages have been largely compromised by Fire Imperial propaganda during the 100 Years War, like all but one of the Sages at Roku's temple. I personally would suspect that Zuko's support would actually come more from lower class peoples tired of the War, urban intellectuals, and whoever around still respects the Dragon of the West and/or Avatar.

Click to shrink...

I mean I'm basing that off what I remember of the show, where zuko worked with the fire sages a few times and his ascension to the throne was somewhat supported by the fire sage arbitrator in the agni kai being somewhat baised in his favour.


Also just in general based of what you said. I'm guessing that whoever's still around that still believes in the avatar/respects them is probably fairly spiritual and also a supporter of the fire sages.


oh also in a broader argument against the modernist cantidate, even if Zukos support base did come from the disaffected masses tired of war.The modernists are seemingly pro war.

Personally, I see a more Radical Modernist as being one of the only options that could even have a chance of being reasonably anti-colonialist, as Mercantilists would prefer a shift over to Neoimperialism rather than actual reform, and the Colonials (who are specifically the regional nobility) rely on the Fire Nation's continued presence on the Earth Continent to maintain power (and thus will cause issues if/when Aang tries to turn the area into the United Republic).

Click to shrink...

huh? The Modernists very much seem to believe in the colonialist mission.

Modernists argue fiercely for the continued elevation of Fire Nation society. This has manifested largely in the form of an interweaving of modernist and progressive politics with the militant nationalist ideology of the Fire Nation, supporters of the Modernist movement specifically embracing the war as a righteous humanistic crusade to topple the ancient and rotting structures of the Earth Kingdom and form a truly global empire

Click to shrink...

Like they seem the most directly colonialist.


Like yes the neo colonialism of the mercantilists is bad, but the modernists seem to be arguing for straight up old fashioned colonialism.Not too different from what just happened in the hundred year war.

edit ok maybe with less racism, but it still feels like it would have all the other stuff.

 

[Granite]

As a general note for expectations: this will not be a quest with an easy path to victory. The Fire Nation is essentially a proto-fascist state, one that has waged a genocidal war against the rest of the world for over a century; the systems and institutions that you are working within are defined by those facts and it will take both effort and endurance to see them corrected. This is not a process that will proceed without pushback. Even aside from those individuals who believe wholeheartedly in Ozai's creed, there will be a sizable number of people who benefited directly or indirectly from the imperial projects of the Fire Nation; one can expect these individuals to take action to preserve their wealth and privilege should they feel it has come under threat.

This is not to say that good outcomes are impossible or even unlikely, merely an advisory that you should not be particularly discouraged by setbacks. If you're familiar with me from my Fallout quest over on Spacebattles, I'll generally be keeping to the same approach I've taken there: there will be ups and downs, points where things might seem dire, but I will always endeavor to be both fair and honest when it comes to the outcomes of the choices made. I will be sure to answer questions to the best of my ability and endeavor to signpost potentially dangerous within the text, something that should hopefully provide you with the information you need to be successful.

 

[Granite]

What ever Chancellor we pick. We are going to have get a new position in the Cabinet for ol' Qin, because the Ministry of Wartime Technology probably ain't going to stay around, if Zuko remains in charge.

Sure, Saojo the Minister of Infrastucture will still be around (even in peace you need Infrastucture) but a Minister of Wartime Technology is unnecessary, if you are committed to peace.

@Granite, are we going to be playing as Minister Qin or as the new Chancellor?

Click to shrink...

A fair concern with regards to the good Minister Qin!

You'll be playing as the Chancellor, though Qin and Saojo are likely to be early allies given their role in your appointment.

I thought the Fire Sages have been largely compromised by Fire Imperial propaganda during the 100 Years War, like all but one of the Sages at Roku's temple. I personally would suspect that Zuko's support would actually come more from lower class peoples tired of the War, urban intellectuals, and whoever around still respects the Dragon of the West and/or Avatar.

Click to shrink...

The traditionalist faction among the Sages is probably the most supportive of Zuko at the moment. While it'll be discussed in more detail in the coming chapters, ending the war is going to be a fairly unpopular course of action, in large part because the spoils, both in loot and colonial extraction, have allowed the home islands to maintain a pretty high standard of life. Iroh will be a very strong ally for Zuko as he'll still hold quite a bit of respect among the militarists... but those are also the men and women who stand to lose the most from an end to the conflict.

I've generally aimed to make these factions balanced and have their own unique upsides and downsides; the ones available are those who clash with Zuko's intentions the least, as you'll ultimately have to answer to him as Fire Lord.

Edit: As an additional note, I have a pretty comprehensive overview of the national situation ready, I'm just holding off on sharing it until we're through character creation as I'd rather not overwhelm folks : )

 

[Limabot]

I mean I'm basing that off what I remember of the show, where zuko worked with the fire sages a few times and his ascension to the throne was somewhat supported by the fire sage arbitrator in the agni kai being somewhat baised in his favour.


Also just in general based of what you said. I'm guessing that whoever's still around that still believes in the avatar/respects them is probably fairly spiritual and also a supporter of the fire sages.


oh also in a broader argument against the modernist cantidate, even if Zukos support base did come from the disaffected masses tired of war.The modernists are seemingly pro war.

Click to shrink...

I concede the point about the Fire Sages and Traditionalists liking him, but the latter seem to be both the least powerful (relevant) faction and literally the only ones that don't default to explicitly supporting the war.

huh? The Modernists very much seem to believe in the colonialist mission.

Like they seem the most directly colonialist.


Like yes the neo colonialism of the mercantilists is bad, but the modernists seem to be arguing for straight up old fashioned colonialism.Not too different from what just happened in the hundred year war.

Click to shrink...

I agree that a Moderate Modernist would be pretty imperialist and colonialist by default; I specified a Radical one since that would leave room for a more dissonant (and negative) stance on the war than their generic counterparts. A Radical Mercantilist would probably still support Neoimperialism short of being something like "Capitalism in one country", and any Colonialist would be very vulnerable politically to the possibility of the Colonies ever leaving the Fire Nation.

 

[BoSPaladin]

Alright question. What's everyone hoping for? Navigating the crisis is the immediate term issue. But Long term are there any goals or plans?

 

[WestOrEast]

I want to see Aang having to deal with someone from the colonies who is half-earth kingdomer, in power and loyal to Fire Nation

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I heard that in the comics, he did have to deal with an Earthbender FN loyalist.

 

[Diadochi]

I agree that a Moderate Modernist would be pretty imperialist and colonialist by default; I specified a Radical one since that would leave room for a more dissonant (and negative) stance on the war than their generic counterparts. A Radical Mercantilist would probably still support Neoimperialism short of being something like "Capitalism in one country", and any Colonialist would be very vulnerable politically to the possibility of the Colonies ever leaving the Fire Nation.

Click to shrink...

I doubt that ? again this is the party founded around that whole spreading the fire nations prosperity to the world line from avatar. It's a party with a strong base in the military and a tradition inspired by the militarist party!


I think even a radical modernist would still be rather nationalist and imperialist.

edit also hews from Ozai's Supremacist party !

She associates with the national associations here in Caldera, not Ozai's, the youth ones;

Click to shrink...

 

[Mars]

[X] "She's my niece - a close association is dangerous, I know, but it might prove worthwhile here. She associates with the national associations here in Caldera, not Ozai's, the youth ones; I know you're not fond of the modernist movement, but it might be useful to attach them to our government, let some new blood into the court in order to take attention away from reliable hands such as yourself and I. It might make the conservatives uncomfortable, all the talk of meritocracy and youth, but I wouldn't mind throwing up a distraction to take attention away from us in these trying times…"
[X] "Moderate" (Loyal Clique, Personal Interest)

 

[Profilozof]

Alright question. What's everyone hoping for? Navigating the crisis is the immediate term issue. But Long term are there any goals or plans?

Click to shrink...

Making Republic City not a thing.

It was compromise because Zuko and team Avatar for good reasons changed their mind on completly giving up all colonies mid transfer to earth kingdom.

Giving up most of them especially the newer ones where most people don't want to stay in fire nation is good idea, and getting a (couple of) buffor state(s) between us and earth kingdom proper is good idea.

Other than that becoming constitucional monarchy with fire lord having some of their power intact and maybe getting some of ecology under way as to prevent spirits from dying out and lashing out

 

[Mazeka]

[X] "Revisionist" (Uncertain Clique, Personal Interest, Moderate Divergence)

I'm split between Mercantilist or Modernist.

Mercantilist seems to be the kind of person Qin would prefer, allowing for a few reforms while the internal rot remains untouched. Modernist meanwhile means there's a possibility of unseating Qin's faction by being a closet radical.

I don't expect anything democratic or anti-monarchist out of this. That's for the Korra era.

 

[Medicus]

Alright question. What's everyone hoping for? Navigating the crisis is the immediate term issue. But Long term are there any goals or plans?

Click to shrink...

I want the Fire Nation to adopt a version of modernism thats actually something akin to "the humanitarian crusade", instead of "spreading the prosperity" of the Fire Nation through war, convince public to spread the prosperity... and the influence of the fire nation through All sorts of less genocidal means, organizations that are intented to spread the progressive institutions of the Fire Nation while keeping the said nation floating with trade that coincidentally also shows of the superiority of the Fire Nations institutions.
In my mind a non insignificant percentage of the various elite and a good chunk of the public can buy this version supremacy of the fire nation that keeps them still somewhat extra prosperous. And if along the way we get other countries to adopt institutions that make industrialisation possible, spread the concept of the welfare state and create markets that can afford to buy our goods... that would be good as that's the whole plan.

I think our colonies and a few states centralised and developed(Omasu, Northern Water Tribe etc)enough that also want to avoid ever getting caught being weak again could be convinced to work with a Fire Nation under a friend of the Avatar to do the above mentioned goals.

Also, please anybody reading feel free to point out the delusional inherit to the plan. I'd love to see the "downsides" from someone else's point of view.

 

[Pillar 0F Atlan2]

[X] "She's a relative of the governor in Yu Dao… don't give me that look, young man, I know she's mixed, but the Fire Lord seems to hold a misplaced sympathy for foreigners and mongrels. She's a colonial, so we can at least expect her to know her place and heed our counsel; their kind is always quick to listen to their betters when it comes to this sort of thing, especially since she'll be without other friends in the court. More importantly, we can expect her to advocate for the interests of the colonies, which would hopefully offer a starting point in talking the Fire Lord down from whatever foolishness he might be contemplating in the colonies.
[X] "Orthodox" (Devoted Clique, Firm Orthodoxy)

 

[No7sHere]

[X] "She's an associate of the Finance Minister - that alone is a good in, but I'm told that she also carries a fair amount of weight with the admiralty club and the mercantile concerns here in Caldera. The mercantilist clique is well established in court, though I find it unlikely that our new liege will share Ozai's disfavor; her appointment might prove a sufficient reinforcement to raise them back as a counterbalance to Ozai's clique and the militarists. Even more importantly, I imagine that she'll understand the importance of maintaining our economic position in these uncertain times; after all, if things falter too much, we risk far more than what is ultimately a minor dynastic squabble…"

[X] "Moderate" (Loyal Clique, Personal Interest)

 

[Teen Spirit]

[X] "She's a relative of the governor in Yu Dao… don't give me that look, young man, I know she's mixed, but the Fire Lord seems to hold a misplaced sympathy for foreigners and mongrels. She's a colonial, so we can at least expect her to know her place and heed our counsel; their kind is always quick to listen to their betters when it comes to this sort of thing, especially since she'll be without other friends in the court. More importantly, we can expect her to advocate for the interests of the colonies, which would hopefully offer a starting point in talking the Fire Lord down from whatever foolishness he might be contemplating in the colonies.
[X] "Revisionist" (Uncertain Clique, Personal Interest, Moderate Divergence)

 

[Brightflame]

[X] "She's a relative of the governor in Yu Dao… don't give me that look, young man, I know she's mixed, but the Fire Lord seems to hold a misplaced sympathy for foreigners and mongrels. She's a colonial, so we can at least expect her to know her place and heed our counsel; their kind is always quick to listen to their betters when it comes to this sort of thing, especially since she'll be without other friends in the court. More importantly, we can expect her to advocate for the interests of the colonies, which would hopefully offer a starting point in talking the Fire Lord down from whatever foolishness he might be contemplating in the colonies.
[X] "Revisionist" (Uncertain Clique, Personal Interest, Moderate Divergence)

 

[bookworm702]

Ah, this looks fascinating. I admit that I'm excited to see the idea of a more radical-leaning Colonial viewpoint in charge. Such a figure would most likely heavily argue against the idea of both a return of the colonies to the Earth Kingdom, and the formation of an independent state. A more unorthodox Chancellor seems likely to champion the idea of sociopolitical fusion. The incorporation of Earth into Fire for the betterment of both. It's an interesting setting where the discovery of a new kind of magic (Lavabending) could be seen as a primarily political statement.

"What if we conquered and absorbed the world...but, like, spiritually?"

[X] "She's a relative of the governor in Yu Dao… don't give me that look, young man, I know she's mixed, but the Fire Lord seems to hold a misplaced sympathy for foreigners and mongrels. She's a colonial, so we can at least expect her to know her place and heed our counsel; their kind is always quick to listen to their betters when it comes to this sort of thing, especially since she'll be without other friends in the court. More importantly, we can expect her to advocate for the interests of the colonies, which would hopefully offer a starting point in talking the Fire Lord down from whatever foolishness he might be contemplating in the colonies.

 

[Wilgus04]

[X] "She's my niece - a close association is dangerous, I know, but it might prove worthwhile here. She associates with the national associations here in Caldera, not Ozai's, the youth ones; I know you're not fond of the modernist movement, but it might be useful to attach them to our government, let some new blood into the court in order to take attention away from reliable hands such as yourself and I. It might make the conservatives uncomfortable, all the talk of meritocracy and youth, but I wouldn't mind throwing up a distraction to take attention away from us in these trying times…"

[X] "Revisionist" (Uncertain Clique, Personal Interest, Moderate Divergence)

 

[Lord Cheddar]

I want the Fire Nation to adopt a version of modernism thats actually something akin to "the humanitarian crusade", instead of "spreading the prosperity" of the Fire Nation through war, convince public to spread the prosperity... and the influence of the fire nation through All sorts of less genocidal means, organizations that are intented to spread the progressive institutions of the Fire Nation while keeping the said nation floating with trade that coincidentally also shows of the superiority of the Fire Nations institutions.
In my mind a non insignificant percentage of the various elite and a good chunk of the public can buy this version supremacy of the fire nation that keeps them still somewhat extra prosperous. And if along the way we get other countries to adopt institutions that make industrialisation possible, spread the concept of the welfare state and create markets that can afford to buy our goods... that would be good as that's the whole plan.

I think our colonies and a few states centralised and developed(Omasu, Northern Water Tribe etc)enough that also want to avoid ever getting caught being weak again could be convinced to work with a Fire Nation under a friend of the Avatar to do the above mentioned goals.

Also, please anybody reading feel free to point out the delusional inherit to the plan. I'd love to see the "downsides" from someone else's point of view.

Click to shrink...

My thoughts exactly.
Also, screw the nobles and screw the Traditionalists. They have done nothing but hold the world back and create decay and suffering through their backwards rule! Also I guess keep us from going to war with the spirits or somesuch.

The world WILL have egalitarianism (and hopefully some democracy) AND THEY WILL LIKE IT!
Keeping the Traditionalists in power is how you get the Korra-era Earth Kingdom.

The long-term objectives, apart from a sustainable peace and DESTROYING THE REACTIONARIES WITH FACTS AND LOGIC should probably be to set the Fire Nation (and more broadly, the world) on a more tolerant, prosperous and progressive path.

Accelerating the ongoing industrial and scientific revolution, as well as perhaps developing some equalisers to bending, will drive continued social progress as well as increase general prosperity. We must make sure that this happens without engendering Dickensian conditions and getting the spirits understandably angry - rebuilding and changing humanity's relationship to the supernatural is going to be crucial.

Binding the world more tightly by encouraging trade and cultural exchange is going to be critical to increasing understanding and tolerance. Granting more power to the people is going to be important as well to invest them in the common good and preventing old elites from turning back the clock; establishing and nourishing representative and democratic institutions is going to be crucial in the short and long term.

 

[Earl Warren]

[X] "She's a relative of the governor in Yu Dao… don't give me that look, young man, I know she's mixed, but the Fire Lord seems to hold a misplaced sympathy for foreigners and mongrels. She's a colonial, so we can at least expect her to know her place and heed our counsel; their kind is always quick to listen to their betters when it comes to this sort of thing, especially since she'll be without other friends in the court. More importantly, we can expect her to advocate for the interests of the colonies, which would hopefully offer a starting point in talking the Fire Lord down from whatever foolishness he might be contemplating in the colonies.
[X] "Orthodox" (Devoted Clique, Firm Orthodoxy)

Click to shrink...

Personally, I would just like to do someone who completely buys into the Imperial Project and is invested in it, precisely because of the contradictions in her life. Being a Colonial who was only born out of war and collaboration, then having to work her way up a system which was primarily disadvantaged to her. And then Zuko comes around to go "Actually, Nahhhhhh…" and seeing her struggle with that will be a fascinating arc to work with.