Being normal about this and not going totalen kriegen for minimal reason is more likely to keep us safe than not from anything 10 or 20 years in the future. Being space North Korea is actually not that conductive to keeping yourself safe- if the salamander state finds a reason to stomp us they will stomp us, better to not give them a reason in the first place.
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- Mid-Atlantic
In that case, our starship crew inadvertently saved all our asses in the process of fucking around trying to make deals in the interstellar equivalent of the parking lot of the shady motel on the outskirts of town. PERFECT.
Suppose we win. Then what happens?
We what to do nothing with a state that lets this kind of shit to happen in the first place.
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
Well, this deal has come from the military side of the expedition, not the corporate side of things that thinks the government is onto them.
From Discord, the main deciding thing was the major tank battle where the enemy spearhead got stopped. Yes, two Corps got mauled, but they took out the better part of an enemy Armored Brigade with them. And even with reinforcements, the military can look at the numbers and see how many Armored Corps we're making vs how many Armored Brigades they have incoming, and those are not promising numbers for them.
There's even one of the PMC Frigates floating around just behind the corporate yacht as a pointed statement of "you are going to accept this treaty and then we are going home." This is basically the military contingent of the expedition doing a soft mutiny.
From Discord, the main deciding thing was the major tank battle where the enemy spearhead got stopped. Yes, two Corps got mauled, but they took out the better part of an enemy Armored Brigade with them. And even with reinforcements, the military can look at the numbers and see how many Armored Corps we're making vs how many Armored Brigades they have incoming, and those are not promising numbers for them.
There's even one of the PMC Frigates floating around just behind the corporate yacht as a pointed statement of "you are going to accept this treaty and then we are going home." This is basically the military contingent of the expedition doing a soft mutiny.
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Well, if they want to do war to us our consent is a non-factor lol.
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- Mid-Atlantic
@Blackstar
Do we have any indication that the guys invading us know the owls exist, and if we think they do, can we carve out a "and leave the owls the hell alone" clause in our peace treaty? Because no way in hell are we signing a peace treaty with them only for them to just cart literally this same expeditionary force over to Owl Planet and try and conquer them.
For your construction of the matter to be correct, the aliens need to be effectively forbidding us from building our own FTL ships, and I'm not really seeing provisions for that. Theoretically they could interpret the terms in bad faith and do as you describe, but there's effectively no peace treaty we could ever sign that would prevent it. Even if we chased them out of our orbital space in disarray with a swarm of angry nuclear rocket fighters, they could still "have fleets prepared to restore order" and impose "gradually worsening deals" on us.
Do we have any indication that the guys invading us know the owls exist, and if we think they do, can we carve out a "and leave the owls the hell alone" clause in our peace treaty? Because no way in hell are we signing a peace treaty with them only for them to just cart literally this same expeditionary force over to Owl Planet and try and conquer them.
Second, since we talked to the owls before these bozos invaded us.
They're not getting much out of it because they haven't spent much on it; this expedition was ruinously expensive by our standards but nowhere near as expensive by the standards of their civilization because they aren't the ones who lost their entire orbital infrastructure and had to expend entire tank corps to take out a few dozen enemy armored vehicles.
For your construction of the matter to be correct, the aliens need to be effectively forbidding us from building our own FTL ships, and I'm not really seeing provisions for that. Theoretically they could interpret the terms in bad faith and do as you describe, but there's effectively no peace treaty we could ever sign that would prevent it. Even if we chased them out of our orbital space in disarray with a swarm of angry nuclear rocket fighters, they could still "have fleets prepared to restore order" and impose "gradually worsening deals" on us.
If true, then it should be rejected anyway, being that we're going to win. They might well just abandon the suits if what you say is right.
If not true, then it absolutely must be rejected. The enemy can just leave whenever they want without being pursued by us, they want this in order to fold us into their system and win by other means.
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- Midwest
We absolutely should not force their backs against the wall until we've regained the orbitals. If they think we have a chance of overrunning their forces on the ground and diplomacy doesn't work the chances of they decide to drop an asteroid on us rise to a frankly unacceptable extent. We should accept the deal merely in interest of buying time.
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- The United States
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- She/Her
There isn't that clause but their fairly explicit that another Lirrir world is nothing notable or special, you'll find out more with the next update and an overview of species in the galaxy, but they broadly do not care, plus their not even in their states space to claim or negotiate around.
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- Mid-Atlantic
No, because if we refuse the treaty, then the mercenaries probably can't abandon the suits entirely. A reputation for mutiny or breach of contract is bad for you, and the mercenaries need to pressure the executives to accept the treaty to save face to avoid that.
I'm not at all sure the mercenaries actually CAN leave without the corporate suite's permission, as the corporate guys may have control of the cargo starships. Furthermore, we are simply not going to be able to indefinitely defend ourselves against the entire fucking galaxy if we aren't somehow involved in the interstellar system.
We are Tokugawa Japan and we have just had our Commodore Perry moment. The foreigners just showed up, and their arrival makes it clear that while their technology and industrial capacity aren't completely beyond our capacity to understand, they are well beyond our capacity to match.
Meiji Japan did not thrive by launching an all-out suicidal attack on Commodore Perry's squadron and then hoping no more ships full of white people would ever show up. They thrived by first re-establishing stability within Japan, then by carrying out the necessary reforms and trade with the outside world.
That's not going to work, because they're like 100 times bigger and stronger than we are. We aren't in a position to become an isolated hermit kingdom and still be able to defend ourselves; we need to find some way to establish ourselves in the interstellar order so that we at least know where to lodge a complaint if some other bunch of pirates come after us.
So basically, we're not worried about these guys in particular going after our owl friends? Okay. Good, that's good then.
And there may be many worlds of space owls, but this one is ours and our special friends live there, so it's special.
If they wanted to do that don't see why these mercenaries would be giving up and the corporation members wouldn't just be calling the government for a new deal, also I'm speaking in the if they see what happened as something normal and then try to sell us some used spaceships that they were going to scrap in the same sentence.
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- Mid-Atlantic
I have no idea what this means.
That it is likely that they will try to ignore the fact they indirectly tried to colonialize us and fugue out a different way to do it, you can't be a friend of those kinds of Nations we have to find real friends.
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But the nation has not being involved in this? This has all being the doing of a company. If this was the state we would have already lost completely.
I forget exactly but in one of the updates it says why the company was doing this in the first place and it sounds like the government does not punish them at all if they try and succeed at invading planets.
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
Yeah, this is all basically legal as far as the government is concerned IIRC, but the Salamander government from what we can tell wouldn't really have the authority to punish them anyway even if it wasn't legal.
Because their government is more or less a confederation where the corporation is a notable power-broker with Senators in its pocket.
Because their government is more or less a confederation where the corporation is a notable power-broker with Senators in its pocket.
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So that information has made it were this company is more trustworthy than that government of nothing because at least this company is likely to actually do something then nothing.
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- Mid-Atlantic
The thing is, we've established that trying to invade us and found a colony as a path to getting more 'senator' influence within the Salamander government's broader structure is fucking risky, to put it mildly. The specific bozos who attacked us just reached in and got their hand mauled, and by the time anyone else manages to mobilize a stronger expedition we'll have completed our current cycle of adapting weapons capable of fighting back against their technology and be a lot better prepared for their capabilities.
It's not impossible that they'll just endlessly keep trying to find ways to subtly neocolonialize us, but we can't actually prevent that just by fighting the current land expeditionary force of the current batch of corporate raiders to the death. Like, seriously, how does refusing this peace treaty actually stop them from doing any of this anyway? The only benefit to us in terms of deterring future efforts to subjugate us is that we'll have shown we're willing to resist to insane extents and use extremely disproportionate fanatical or overpowered weapons to fight back. But we've already proven that based on our willingness to repeatedly nuke our own planet to blow up individual Alien Enemy tanks.
We've pretty much maxed out what we can gain from this war in terms of captured enemy tech, and in terms of establishing our own "badassoftheweek.com" reputation as a species of madlads not to be tangled with lightly or casually despite our inferior technology. At this point, our future prospects as a species unlikely to be conquered would benefit far more from us beginning to be able to systematically contact the wider galaxy, learn how their technology works, and identify the big polities so we can contact them and try to play them off against each other rather than being a patsy for one or another of them.
Meiji Japan did not get particularly favorable trade deals with Western nations; nevertheless, they wound up having to make those trade deals as a necessary part of industrializing and becoming a relevant power capable of defending themselves.
It's not impossible that they'll just endlessly keep trying to find ways to subtly neocolonialize us, but we can't actually prevent that just by fighting the current land expeditionary force of the current batch of corporate raiders to the death. Like, seriously, how does refusing this peace treaty actually stop them from doing any of this anyway? The only benefit to us in terms of deterring future efforts to subjugate us is that we'll have shown we're willing to resist to insane extents and use extremely disproportionate fanatical or overpowered weapons to fight back. But we've already proven that based on our willingness to repeatedly nuke our own planet to blow up individual Alien Enemy tanks.
We've pretty much maxed out what we can gain from this war in terms of captured enemy tech, and in terms of establishing our own "badassoftheweek.com" reputation as a species of madlads not to be tangled with lightly or casually despite our inferior technology. At this point, our future prospects as a species unlikely to be conquered would benefit far more from us beginning to be able to systematically contact the wider galaxy, learn how their technology works, and identify the big polities so we can contact them and try to play them off against each other rather than being a patsy for one or another of them.
The task of finding real friends will not be simplified by us having no peaceful outlet to the wider galaxy apart from weird shady shadowports where Salamander corporations can probably just literally pay the local gangs of pirates to hang around and shoot our ambassadors for the bounties.
Meiji Japan did not get particularly favorable trade deals with Western nations; nevertheless, they wound up having to make those trade deals as a necessary part of industrializing and becoming a relevant power capable of defending themselves.
I don't think it's that simple. If their government authorities actually make an agreement, we have no reason to expect the agreement to be reneged on. At the same time, they're going to default to delegating a lot of power to the company, so they won't make agreements without a strong reason or unless it's easy for them to cooperate.
I said not a single thing against signing the treaty I just don't believe a moment that can trust this so called government at all, because what the company did isn't against the law or more damaging it is against the law and they not going to do jackshit about it which is just insulting and destroys any believability in actually honestly caring what happened, like honestly at this point this company is trustworthy because they see trying to do hostile action against us as a loss of money instead of trying to sell us used starships.
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I figure there will be fuckery after this, but so long as we don't actually north koreamaxxx it's much more likely to be diplomatic or economic than a direct military invasion anytime soon, and with us just being some corporations foolish venture instead of an actual threat to them I doubt the state will be the source of any of it.
If it buys us even 5 years of not having hostile warships in orbit and getting bombarded from the moon then that's enough time to frantically rebuild our orbital presence and cover the moon in lasers + FAC hangars. That would be a much better position to renegotiate from than down a gravity well, even if the CLP will almost assuredly fuck with us again somehow somewhere I think a ceasefire to move the fighting into space favors us.
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- Northish
That's just politics, no one has friends, only interests that can coincide for a period of time. We will never trust them and they will not trust us, but we can still do business until we can build up.
Honstly no matter how it goes down our performance is up there with the cascadians from Project Wingman. Let's just hope a cutern frigate doesn't go all Crimson 1 on us...
The spaceship mercenaries do not want to slowly die of radiation poisoning which we have shown we will gladly give them.
Realistically though, any deal we make with the clp only goes past the next 15 years max if we want it to. Given a year or two of peace and we'll probably have upgraded the military enough to crush any invasion of this scale outright, and now that we have ships to design against we can eventually match the clp in space. While they could bring in more forces next time, I don't see that actually getting them anything they want especially how easy it is to just take some resources (plus the unsecured investments they didn't spend on mercenaries) and wash their hands of this with potentially a valuable trading partner out of the whole mess.