A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
Wait, when did the Maiden unfuck anything? I remember her fucking up the elves and the orcs something fierce, that's for sure, but findross already existed before her.
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
Yeah. I don't think Manifest realm was anything close to an utopia either. But it's possible I have forgotten some part of the lore.
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
She unfucked the human civ which was about to be roflstomped by the elves and orcs. Then united them all with the implicit duty.
Talace
It must be raining somewhere else!
Yeah... but we'd be capable of doing that ourselves with Crimson Flare. I'm not sure if it's a measure for the same problems we expect to face when untangling the Ring.
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
The maiden could do practically anything and was basically a demigod. Buffed Gisena trivializes social encounters in the inner ring and we have plenty of options for buffing the residents to bargain with. We also don't have to worry about the contest of primacy until we take ruling ring.
Inner residents are probably using their ring to grant themselves something analogous to Ennobling anyway. Crimson Flare doesn't really make us any better at socializing it just gives some more rank so all our attempts aren't crushed by the difference in pressure.
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Crimson's description heavily implies that we do have to worry about the contest of primacy with the Azure Ring, as not having to think about it is one of the EFB's benefits. And the point isn't bargaining with individuals to subvert them, it's giving their civilization the tools to stand on their own feet once we inevitably move on.
You could say Gisena could do the same with her EFB, but not only is it going to take her a lot of time to reach that point (time that Hunger isn't going to wait for, as Azure is getting tortured in the meantime), it might demand greater sacrifices from her as well. The one example we have of the Maiden spreading her powers en masse to the populace involved her death.
You could say Gisena could do the same with her EFB, but not only is it going to take her a lot of time to reach that point (time that Hunger isn't going to wait for, as Azure is getting tortured in the meantime), it might demand greater sacrifices from her as well. The one example we have of the Maiden spreading her powers en masse to the populace involved her death.
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Yeah, well in Red Town, we call the mindset of people that pick Freedom over Vengeance cowards!
Actually, I'm inclined to either Freedom or Vengeance depending on the kind of narrative we want to craft but after Even Further Beyond, I'm really looking forward to something more intense where the thread is really pushed to develop tactics and have a more badass character that struggles with his enemies at lower power levels. Overall, I kind of liked Bleach Quest the most out of all Rihaku's quests, and a major reason I felt that way was because Ishida grew from a fairly weak character in terms of both spiritual power and plot relevance to an Adversary with power surpassing that of Old Man Genocide and nearly on par with Aizen himself (Maybe? Aizen's masteries did inflate his effective REI pretty heavily so I'm not sure if in pure power, the Prince of Light can rival him. Definitely would not have wanted to fight against him though).Seguing into a discussion on Bleach Quest for a moment, it's probably the only story of Rihaku's where I actually regret we took the power option (joining Aizen and repairing our soul with the Hougyoku) instead of staying with Soul Society and our friends. To this day, I mourn the possibility of reading about Vizard Byakuya and Yoruichi!
It was the first Rihaku quest I participated in, though I didn't manage to vote in time to affect the Accept / Decline choice. I read a bit of Magus Quest before that but Bleach Quest was the first story of Rihaku's that actually drew me in. Bloodstained Blossoming remains my favorite chapter in all of Rihaku's works still and it's the main reason I wished we could have stayed with Soul Society. That kind of perfect social victory against Byakuya, completely turning him onto our side and him gifting his scarf to us in recognition of our ideals... it's probably the most intense and perfect moment Rihaku has written in my opinion. The only other moment that came close in terms of 'awesome social victory' was By Other Means in Terrascape when Arthur rolled that nat 100, which made me super hopeful that Arthur would become a more independent character though his flow with Imperia wasn't that bad.Anyway, I'm quite keen on going back to 'more basic' power-levels for a while and to have more intense fight scenes, cause while Even Further Beyond satisfied my appetite for power escalation by going straight to 'breath and wipe out entire galaxy clusters', the fight scenes were only okay, barring the exception of Suizhen storming the Lazulite Halls and Nameless fighting against Zang Kong - those were some awesome fights. Playing on a more basic setting will probably provoke more thrilling battles cause we'll be operating on a much smaller margin of error and we'll be forced to escalate ever more quickly against the forces of the Apocryphal Curse.
Well, time to comment on builds!
Huh, despite me kind of being against Freedom in a narrative sense, I'm actually really like the vibe of Dread but Dreaming. Gives off a Azathoth-ish feel and the Curses really synergize with the 'final boss of the universe' theme we've got going, immediately declaring us as a Combat-type Cursebearer with power sufficient to sunder armies and boil seas entire with the Plenary Brand's announcement of our presence and the Tyrant's Doom really feeding into our theme of 'a conquering force, heedless of restraint and possessed of overwhelming power'. The Affliction of Slumber is a weakness that we can work around and is also interesting thematically speaking as something that limits our actions but also allows some degree of flexibility in planning on growing our power around it.
Also, Affliction-type Curses seem to be easier to mitigate than other Curses? So taking up Slumber is actually pretty ok in my opinion, it's a better Curse than Decimator for sure. We could chain this with Gisena's Nullity to mitigate our Slumber and Plenary Brand, investing in her so that she can continue to reduce the power of the Brand as we continue our journey. Overall, Dread but Dreaming has the best Curse set in my opinion and I like the aesthetics of Plenary Brand which is paired nicely with Affliction of the Slumber and the Doom of the Tyrant, so this kind of hits me in the 'thematics' part of my brain.
And we can't forget about The Sword That Ends the World! Easily the best part of this build, with us having the power to study the Praxis freely with the safety offered by being a Combat-type Cursebearer, we could spend entire updates devoted to increasing our understanding of the Praxis and enjoying the succulent bounty of DEEP LORE thus available! Man, that dream almost makes me light-headed just thinking about it. Realistically, I think we could get maybe 1 ~ 2 updates of training and magic lore before Rihaku tosses a quest or monsters at us, but it would have been much more information on the Praxis than we have now so that's still kind of a net-gain to me.
I actually quite like Dread but Dreaming a lot, it's easily my second-favorite option of the builds. I would vote for this pretty comfortably if there wasn't the offer of Progression on the table. The power of infinite scaling derived from the Infinite Singularity Husk is something too powerful for me to defy...
Urgh. Doom of Lunacy? Plenary Brand? Together? Such an unappealing combination in terms of playstyle. I know the synergy of the build is pretty good but Lunacy downgrades our power tremendously, sealing away more than 70% of our power except for dramatic circumstances and the Plenary Brand just advertises that to the whole world. Yeah, I get that we still have enough power that people will be disinclined to attack us, but the Plenary Brand making people consider us a villain (rightfully so, because we have the Doom of the Tyrant) is a feature not a bug to me. I like the idea of being a force that can dominate the world and while Three Wishes is objectively superior since the Brand will clearly state that we have the backing of the Accursed in the event we need to trigger a True Wish defensively but we're probably going to expend the Lesser Wish on resurrecting Catherine (spoilers at the time of this vote, lol) and I recall Rihaku mentioning we'll probably pick a power to protect them using Least Wish.. so that's like 2 wishes wasted on others.
I'm in this to grow our character's personal power and legend so it's kind of offputting to be investing so much of our resources into companions. Plus, the Hero's wife was and still remains a true blackbox. We know she has a kind personality and that she was the adopted daughter of the Tyrant (maybe she's a true descendant of the Forebear? Would explain how the Hero knew to get past the Tyrant's vault defenses and Abduct the Forebear's Blade and her relation to his master might be the reason the Tyrant adopted her in the first place).
Anyway, this build combines the Curse I want the least (Doom of Lunacy, for reasons explained in my first reaction) with the power I want least (Three Wishes, cause it's so nebulous and will probably be expended on other people) so Forsaken Mask has to be my overall last pick in terms of build choice. It would be pretty comfy to explore a new world with our resurrected wife and child, but just as a personal preference, I don't participate in Rihaku quests just for comfy stuff or character banter - I'm here for high octane fight scenes, sick blurbs and DEEP LORE, with increasing importance in descending order, so Forsaken Mask just doesn't do it for me.
Now, this is where it's at! Red Option for the Red God! Vengeance at all costs - the words of Baenlixnaire (gods, his name is a pain to type)! Now, we can live up to his words in truth by becoming him and commit to his goal. This time, no proxies in indolent children with vague moralistic tendencies but primarily driven by pointless greed and sloth, we'll get to do the job ourselves. The Hero shall wreak his vengeance upon the Hidden Ones in full, attaining the limitless power of unbound Progression itself to grow strong enough to extract his bitter revenge from them. Maybe this time, we'll be able to go all the way and actually deal a terrible fate to our enemies instead of wiffing and going with a compromise punishment instead of true Vengeance. (Not to really dunk on anyone's opinion, but I really did find it quite curious that Nameless, a man animated by the prospect of attaining vengeance on behalf of his lich mentors would falter at the last moment. Well, maybe that just serves as an indication of the depths of his sloth - to just pass over revenge because it was kind of too much.)
Anyway, stepping out of that pool of edge I temporarily sunk in to produce more words, I really like Vendetta. Its blurb calls to me greatly and the Hero does seems more inclined towards Vengeance than Freedom from my read of his character. The Curse combination is pretty great, Doom of the Tyrant and Affliction of the Decimator are definitely the Curses of a 'bad guy' but they don't have much overall impact on us directly or immediately so they're pretty safe in my opinion and establish the Hero's personality while enhancing his danger level to opposing universes. The Decimator is concerning since I'd prefer not to just kill 10% of everyone each year without our input on doing that so it's less appealing than the Tyrant's Doom in that regard, but generally quite acceptable in the name of 'cool' and power escalation. Like, I'm not deliberately edgy enough to want to kill the universe but this Curse set doesn't have much of an impact on us personally so I'm leaning towards these two Curses since Slumber seems pretty dang dangerous when we have the Apocryphal Curse hanging over our head and lack the safety net of a Combat Type's overwhelming power.
Thought I should call attention to a particular phrase in Vendetta's blurb - If Justice is five fingers made a fist, then Vengeance is a blade held aloft. - Vengeance is a 'blade', a weapon of violence meant to cut at one's enemies. In other words, it is also a 'Sword'. Could any other power be more fitting for the Hero who seeks to avenge himself and his comrades upon an uncaring universe than a Sword of Vengeance that defies the universe and forces reality to care? Vendetta - Sword resonates with me greatly and it has to be my favorite of the builds.
The King's Scepter suffers from being kind of bland in my opinion since it appears to be a superpower like Game of the Year Edition once was. While the Hero is presumably stronger than Seram was, the powers the latter got were nowhere near as cool as the Praxis was so I'm pretty disinclined to pick the Scepter. It would still be my overall third choice, after Vendetta - Sword and Dread but Dreaming (what can I say, I love the Praxis).
Ah, thus began the rise of the Balancebros! Perfectly balanced, as all things should be. Social things now becomes a simple balancing game where each party has to exchange equal (?) value to each other and every conversation becomes transactional in nature. Combined with the power to try again alongside a whole medley of potential powers in the Regalia, Balance truly is the epitome of the phrase 'jack of all trades, master of none'. It allows us to continue to have the infinite scaling potential of unbound Progression while also granting moderate safety with its control of time travel and does not overly penalize us in terms of Curse choices. We could even sort of do a heroic-kind of character as a knight honorbound to accommodate the requests of others in exchange for them doing the same for his own requests and there is a sort of link to the Arthurian mythos with that kind of knightly behavior alongside Slumber's themes.
In short, a Balance of most things voters want: power, potential and protection. However, in achieving that balance, this build becomes... milquetoast in terms of flavor. We have a diverse powerset but we have little depth in any particular field and cause our build is focused on covering every area of weakness, we have no particular strengths which stand out. In that regard, our attention and themes become a little too scattered for my taste. True commitment, wholehearted devotion to one aspect, giving one's Uttermost to a goal is much more potent than mere competence in every field. Balance just doesn't arouse the same kind of interest as the other options from me, though I would still vote for it over Forsaken Mask because of the powerset - I actually prefer the latter's thematic coherence.
To sum it all up, my preferences lean towards Vendetta with Sword being my first choice, because the ideal of a focused, driven campaign towards Vengeance is very appealing to me and acquiring the Praxis satisfies my immense hunger for more Accursed lore so I've got to give my vote to those options.
Whew, these reactions sure take a lot out of me! Also, figured out how to spoiler my posts so that I don't drop a telephone book on the other voters again, lol. Sorry for covering up the page earlier!
Anyways, another 2293 words to the Arete fund! To be spent towards the next EFB (Total Eclipse if Crimson Flare wins, hopefully! If All-Defeating Stance gets ahead of Crimson Flare, I'll probably pivot my plans to pursue the 3 Blade EFB Special Advancement).
Also, just reminiscing about past Rihaku quests makes me want to sort of start an off-topic discussion about past settings and stories. Maybe I should check out that Discord, see what's going on there.
Alright, that's my contribution to the thread for the day: 3868 words + 2293 words = 6161 words, so that seems like a pretty auspicious place to stop! Hopefully, I've contributed my fair share to the Crimson Flare and All-Defeating Stance positions! Now, to catch up on the rest of the thread...
- Location
- Malaysia
[X] Forbear's Blade: All-Defeating Stance
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
Crimson Flare says that the Azure ring will submit to us in the next contest of primacy, while Ruling Ring says it triggers a contest of primacy. So either a contest of primacy won't be triggered until we take Ruling Ring or they happen after some interval of time probably long or only submitting during one wouldn't be worth much. Either way it probably won't happen until we take Ruling Ring so we don't need to worry about it at the moment.
We can still take Ennobling for two arete even if we buff Gisena and one the graces Seram was offered involved time control so we could always just hyperbolic time chamber our way to finishing ennobling if that's what we want to do.
- Location
- Poland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare
Super healing, is a good powerup, solves Blood vs. Moon fight for us, gets to a more balanced Advancement.
Doesn't kill Hunger's personality with THE SHEER WEIGHT OF THE BEAR.
Super healing, is a good powerup, solves Blood vs. Moon fight for us, gets to a more balanced Advancement.
Doesn't kill Hunger's personality with THE SHEER WEIGHT OF THE BEAR.
- Location
- Italy
Of course we don't need to worry about it (I hope), it still stands that Crimson Flare is the quickest and safest way to get to Ruling Ring (after we get an Evening Sky EFB in-between). And I'm seriously reconsidering how powerful that ++Progression is, since Rihaku wouldn't have gated the effect behind such a harrowing obstacle (stressing about its dangers again and again) if it was just as strong as any other EFB.
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LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
Extremely relevant Captain Planet meme.
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
Wouldn't the quickest and safest way be to get either All Defeating Stance or Renaissance Woman since one makes us super good at combat and the other makes us super good at social, either of which would protect us from the contest of primacy?
Talace
It must be raining somewhere else!
It's questionable how useful either of these would be in contest of primacy, but it's guaranteed that Flare has use in the contest of Primacy. And besides that, we get pretty close to healing the Armament to full.
If we get All-Defeating Stance, the next EFB will be Once and Future for that 3 in 1 advancement. Renaissance Woman might work, but I expect people to object on the grounds like "but what if a Ringbearer with an Armament shows up and just shoots her?", even if I find that pure paranoia.
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- Location
- Poland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
You know, I think I realized Forebearers true nature...
Each bear represents an extreme, a single ideal.
For he is not balanced like a normal person, with each trait in moderation. No.
He is balanced by opposing extremes, each fighting for supremacy within him!
Or in a picture form:
Each bear represents an extreme, a single ideal.
For he is not balanced like a normal person, with each trait in moderation. No.
He is balanced by opposing extremes, each fighting for supremacy within him!
Or in a picture form:
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
Flare lets us autowin vs one ring but presumably there are others. If it's not a contest that can be fought using either combat or social strength what kind of contest is it?
- Location
- Italy
We have no idea what the contest of primacy entails, so no. With Crimson Flare we're bound to make progress towards it and we will still get a 3-EFB Advantage before triggering it. Even then, any amount of time lost before getting the ++Progression is time we aren't benefiting from an exponential increase to our growth (the quickest way would actually be to buy Reinassance Woman and then get the Ruling Ring as our next ESB, but while that would be our fastest method it certainly wouldn't be the safest).
Talace
It must be raining somewhere else!
We don't know! So instead of picking between one sphere of combat that might be useful and another sphere of combat that might be useful, why not hedge our bets and pick something guaranteed to be useful?
Besides that, what if Gisena isn't allowed to participate in the contest of Primacy?
- Location
- USA
[X] The Ring of Power: Crimson Flare
Honestly I'm ok with All-defeating as well, but so many questers seem so against getting the 3 Sword EFBs that I don't think it's worth it. Flare might not auto-win the temple the way the other two options do, but Rihaku has said that it's really good, and if we generate enough Arete this update we can still take Guile-Defeating stance or Hero-Defeating stance and get our odds even higher.
Honestly I'm ok with All-defeating as well, but so many questers seem so against getting the 3 Sword EFBs that I don't think it's worth it. Flare might not auto-win the temple the way the other two options do, but Rihaku has said that it's really good, and if we generate enough Arete this update we can still take Guile-Defeating stance or Hero-Defeating stance and get our odds even higher.
LordOfMurder
Bhaal
- Location
- Australia
Crimson Flare is probably more useful for the contest of primacy yes but it's less useful for everything else than the other two options since most of it's power is locked behind getting the Azure ring. Since we don't have that yet it seems like it makes sense to put it off for later.
Then she can still be useful in preventing people from interrupting us during it, or she could develop a buffing grace to make us stronger.
Because of the breadth of capablities offered by total eclipse we can use the time bought by an overwhelming social victory to have Gisena develop a custom power for whatever problem we face inside the inner temple. Given it takes us less than a day to pick up a new magic system, Gisena with retinue should be capable of grabbing something suited to helping us with whatever challenges we face within a couple of days.
- Location
- Philippines
When in doubt concerning a contest of power, whose rules and machinations are unknown to you and yours, increasing your personal power in a meaningful manner will rarely fail you.
In this case, that would usually be All Defeating Stance. Mitigates the world and even adds a "no u" for added posterity.
However, you know what ensures we win the fight against the Azure ring? That's right, Crimson. Once we've gotten the Azure Ring under our thumb (or on, if multiple suborned rings can be equipped), we can probably extort more information from it. Seeing as it's been in the Voyaging Realm a lot longer than Hunger has been in, and that we could probably extract a bit more of its own power to increase the veracity of Crimson as the Ruling Ring, then there's bound to be something good there. The chances only rise when we don't have to fight tooth and nail with the Azure since it'll be more willing to just go along Hunger's shenanigans.
[please note that this is mostly speculation from my part. for further clarity, please contact your nearest ring bearer or nearest primacy office for further information. beeeeep.]
In this case, that would usually be All Defeating Stance. Mitigates the world and even adds a "no u" for added posterity.
However, you know what ensures we win the fight against the Azure ring? That's right, Crimson. Once we've gotten the Azure Ring under our thumb (or on, if multiple suborned rings can be equipped), we can probably extort more information from it. Seeing as it's been in the Voyaging Realm a lot longer than Hunger has been in, and that we could probably extract a bit more of its own power to increase the veracity of Crimson as the Ruling Ring, then there's bound to be something good there. The chances only rise when we don't have to fight tooth and nail with the Azure since it'll be more willing to just go along Hunger's shenanigans.
[please note that this is mostly speculation from my part. for further clarity, please contact your nearest ring bearer or nearest primacy office for further information. beeeeep.]