Well, Tolkien didn't tend to write obviously magical effects. Rather, persons of sufficient skill and might could perform actions and craft wonders with supernatural results. Sing a song that stops fire and arrows. Make a blade that burns evil, and warns its user that such is approaching. Redirect a river because you asked, or have it suddenly burst into a roaring flood to stop intruders.

Wake up a tree and have it walk around and talk back. Build a ship that sails against the wind and laughs at hurricanes. Or one that flies, can sail to heaven, and become the dawnstar with the help of a shiny headwon ornament. That sort of thing.
Well, there's also Songs of Power and some feats by Luthien and Galadriel that are blatantly magical. I.e- The latter destroying Dol Guldur and the formers shapeshifting and other pure bullshit.
 
Star Blade Saint does not synergize with our previous choices.. as in, the vote we went like, was Bloodmight just the previous vote. What a lack of consistency.

Then again, a lack of consistency is our defining trait, so in that sense Star Blade Saint is very 'in-thread decision'.
 
Can someone tell me where does it say that further Blood Advancements are locked behind Quickening. Hell, the very existence of Study the Ring implies otherwise. We aren't giving up advancing in Blood if we don't pick it here. The extra safety is far better than just more power in my view.
*Exploits your +Progression from Chief Dominion and opens up further, even mightier Blood-based Advancements
I don't think this is the only means of getting them, but it's clearly a way of getting powerful options in that vein. Our Ring likes to build on stuff we already have.
 
*Not quite as good at using immediate power to seize more power as the Bloodslayer
Anyway the option for Star basically outright states that it's immediate power, i.e when we go voting for our next fight, we'll basically be taking on more risk compared to the other option. Or have to settle for lesser rewards.

Also it takes the suicidal exhausted nerf.
*There are, of course, also benefits to pursuing blood-based Advancements, since they are just stronger than the alternatives due to +Progression, offering large amounts of immediate power now, and ways to resolve the Lingering Paralysis debuff in short order.
In comparison, Quickening can get the cake of not taking Exhausted, before proceeding to fix it! Amazing! No risk! No long term penalties! Behold, the awesome power of being consistent with our previous build vote! How could anything possibly compete with such power on objective grounds?!
 
>mfw saint is actually losing despite having more votes due to all the omake writers voting for bloodslayer

Urgh. It's Sunday where I am; I was really looking forwards to putting no effort whatsoever.
Star Blade Saint does not synergize with our previous choices.. as in, the vote we went like, was Bloodmight just the previous vote. What a lack of consistency.

Then again, a lack of consistency is our defining trait, so in that sense Star Blade Saint is very 'in-thread decision'.

Quickening doesn't go with Second Form and Rage either; so pick your poison. At least Saint isn't explicitly anti-synergistic.
I don't think this is the only means of getting them, but it's clearly a way of getting powerful options in that vein. Our Ring likes to build on stuff we already have.
I mean, yes, a blood option now makes future blood options better; but we already voted for Bloodmight. We will be offered good Blood options in the future no matter what. Picking Saint doesn't give that up.
 
Gisena-buff relies on the support of our teammate even more, - which is slowly becoming embarrassing, but to each their own

What's so embarrassing about this? The Accursed (that was his name, right?) thought so highly of Gisena that she was offered as one of our Lesser Remittances. That might not sound so impressive compared to a normal Remittance, but that still places her as one of the most useful things in the multiverse. She's meant to be good. Meant to be a major aid to our journey. She's not a hanger on, or an exp dump.

We are meant to rely on her, just as we rely on every other gift given to us by the Accursed.

>mfw saint is actually losing despite having more votes due to all the omake writers voting for bloodslayer

Wait what? Omakes count for extra votes?
 
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Well, there's also Songs of Power and some feats by Luthien and Galadriel that are blatantly magical. I.e- The latter destroying Dol Guldur and the formers shapeshifting and other pure bullshit.
well, there's not much detail on what exactly Galadrial did there. This is just about all we know about that:

Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lorien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.

Luthien, though, yes, she pulled off substantially more supernatural feats. But even then, it was more that she did things with supernatural skill and consequence.
 
>mfw saint is actually losing despite having more votes due to all the omake writers voting for bloodslayer

Urgh. It's Sunday where I am; I was really looking forwards to putting no effort whatsoever.


Quickening doesn't go with Second Form and Rage either; so pick your poison. At least Saint isn't explicitly anti-synergistic.

I mean, yes, a blood option now makes future blood options better; but we already voted for Bloodmight. We will be offered good Blood options in the future no matter what. Picking Saint doesn't give that up.
I'm sure we will be offered good Blood options in the future if we don't pick Quickening!

They'll be called Quickening.

Pre-requisites.. damn.

Anyway, what I mean by not being consistent at all is that the previous build vote was Bloodmight, ignoring the caster-specific exp drops that we selected Magus for (???). The vote before that was Apex, then Bright Vanquisher, and you'll notice that the one thing these successive Build Votes have in common is that they don't really synergize with each other in the sense of 'compounding capabilities' and instead are like 'linear to quadratic improvement'.

Going for the blood compounding build multiplies our power by, like, 17 times? It would be a definite break from previous Build Votes which didn't exactly have synergistic (In the 1+1 = 3 sense) outcomes.
 
Can someone tell me where does it say that further Blood Advancements are locked behind Quickening.
I didn't say Blood Advancements are locked up behind Quickening, I am saying Quickening our allies is behind it. I am just applying a simple thinking, the only reason we even have Evening Gown to give it to Gisena is getting the Evening Sky in the first place. How can we give Quickening to others if we don't have it in the first place?

Is the Magus something specific and narrow? Without Gisena we wouldn't even know he was there until he made a devastating alpha-strike that had a high-chance of killing us. Which would also render us incorporeal and therefore lose Quickening's benefits. Saint by improving all our forms, comes with much more safety.
This is really not your day is it? To clarify, I meant to say the enemies that can't be defeated with Bloodslayer but could be defeated by Saint are incredibly few and too specific. It's not like we are losing Gisena if we don't pick Evening Gown. Plus with Quickening and Gisena, we wouldn't need all of our forms and have such a devastating alpha strike, continuous attacks and fighting stamina that anything that can survive Bloodslayer can probably defeat Saint easily.
 
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What's so embarrassing about this? The Accursed (that was his name, right?) thought so highly of Gisena that she was offered as one of our Lesser Remittances. That might not sound so impressive compared to a normal Remittance, but that still places her as one of the most useful things in the multiverse. She's meant to be good. Meant to be a major aid to our journey. She's not a hanger on, or an exp dump.

We are meant to rely on her, just as we rely on every other gift given to us by the Accursed.
The embarrassment isn't in relying on her, it's with how much regularity and why it happens - because we consistently stumble into encounters we have no business fighting and she has to save our ass. I'd rather improve our power so she doesn't have to do that.

I mean, yes, a blood option now makes future blood options better; but we already voted for Bloodmight. We will be offered good Blood options in the future no matter what. Picking Saint doesn't give that up.
But we'll be getting better options with Bloodslayer. Progression spins our Legend on top of what we have (unless we're in the mood to steal our enemies' stuff), the more powerful our blood magic, the more it gets enhanced. A 7 Arete + 3 pick is a significant investment into the theme that pays off in stronger Blood Advancements.

I mean, yes, we can (and likely will) pursue Blood Magic in both options, just as we will buffing Gisena as we progress. But I want to see Bloodmagic more than I want to see Nullityplosions.
 
The embarrassment isn't in relying on her, it's with how much regularity and why it happens - because we consistently stumble into encounters we have no business fighting and she has to save our ass. I'd rather improve our power so she doesn't have to do that.

I mean, isn't this why we have her? What's the point of having her along if we could win on our own? We have her along specifically because her nullity magic can and does save our ass.

Edit:
I also believe this is a quest where we will always be stumbling into fights that press our capabilities. It's the nature of a Progression Type. It's the driving mechanic of this quest. And Gisena has been doing an amazing job as an equalizer in the face of difficult enemies.
 
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I mean, isn't this why we have her? What's the point of having her along if we could win on our own? We have her along specifically because her nullity magic can and does save our ass.

Edit:
I also believe this is a quest where we will always be stumbling into fights that press our capabilities. It's the nature of a Progression Type. It's the driving mechanic of this quest. And Gisena has been doing an amazing job as an equalizer in the face of difficult enemies.
The point is that she still contributes with Nullity? Just that we're also not an embarrassment to the team that dies all the time.
 
Wait what? Omakes count for extra votes?
Yes, sortof. To be more precise, Rihaku doesn't only take into account votes. Convincing arguements, omake's, art, insightful discussion, and any other thread participation he feels appropriate is also added to his weighting to decide what actually wins.

So votes do matter, but they are not the only deciding factor. Possibly not the majority, but no real guarantees either way.
 
Wait what? Omakes count for extra votes?
Welcome aboard! Hope you enjoyed the process of catching up, I'm curious how the quest reads when binged. The way Rihaku resolves decision points is that arguments and effortful contribution (art, omakes, reaction posts, etc.) are weighed in addition to votes, to reward and incentivize participation above and beyond dropping a blank vote after every update and returning for the next. It's easy to miss the explanation in reader mode.
 
Man, I think I haven't been piled on this hard since Terrascape! Ahh, the nostalgia.

Anyway the option for Star basically outright states that it's immediate power, i.e when we go voting for our next fight, we'll basically be taking on more risk compared to the other option.
The safest overall option
It seems Rihaku disagrees with you. The above is despite the option taking Exhausted, even. Again, due to fucking magic Stats can't guarantee safety, especially from complications. If you want save advancement without complications go for Saint.

In comparison, Quickening can get the cake of not taking Exhausted, before proceeding to fix it! Amazing! No risk! No long term penalties! Behold, the awesome power of being consistent with our previous build vote! How could anything possibly compete with such power on objective grounds?!
Man, imagine wanting to have consistency with our other forms instead, what a novel idea! We only pop Second Form when whatever we are fighting would have already killed us once; I don't want it to be massively weaker than our base form. Kind of detracts from one of the benefits of the form, even.

If you don't want long-term penalties vote for Saint. I don't think we will be getting rid of Paralysis. And despite taking Paralysis, Bloodslayer is risker anyway. Just surviving is great as a Progression-type because we will outscale whatever opposes us anyway. So it seems a much better thing to prioritize here.
Wait what? Omakes count for extra votes?
They are the equivalent of arguing for an option, I think. The point is to reward effort given to the quest.
I'm sure we will be offered good Blood options in the future if we don't pick Quickening!

They'll be called Quickening.

Pre-requisites.. damn.

Anyway, what I mean by not being consistent at all is that the previous build vote was Bloodmight, ignoring the caster-specific exp drops that we selected Magus for (???). The vote before that was Apex, then Bright Vanquisher, and you'll notice that the one thing these successive Build Votes have in common is that they don't really synergize with each other in the sense of 'compounding capabilities' and instead are like 'linear to quadratic improvement'.

Going for the blood compounding build multiplies our power by, like, 17 times? It would be a definite break from previous Build Votes which didn't exactly have synergistic (In the 1+1 = 3 sense) outcomes.
17 times is a gross exaggeration. And better Nullity would give us way better mach-ups against foes that no amount of Stats could give. And usually if an option is a requirement for something it will say so. Can't think of an example otherwise, from Vanguard to the Martial Stances to Pearlescence. So I don't think an even more shiny option is hiding behind it, no. Safety is better anyway.

I didn't say Blood Advancements are locked up behind Quickening, I am saying Quickening our allies is behind it. I am just applying a simple thinking, the only reason we even have Evening Gown to give it to Gisena is getting the Evening Sky in the first place. How can we give Quickening to others if we don't have it in the first place?
See above. There isn't a systemic nor even lore mention about helping others, just about channeling the power of Progression; something only we have. I don't think this will lead to an ally buff due to that.

This is really not your day is it? To clarify, I meant to say the enemies that can't be defeated with Bloodlslayer but could be defeated by Saint are incredibly few and too specific. It's not like we are losing Gisena if we don't pick Evening Gown. Plus with Quickening and Gisena, we wouldn't need all of our forms and have such a devastating alpha strike, continuous attacks and fighting stamina that anything that can survive Bloodslayer can probably defeat Saint easily.
Again, pure stats are a very imperfect defense. Any bad touch or debuff effects that enemies rely on is much better countered by Saint than by Bloodmight, who just has to tank it. Attritional strategies don't limit themselves to attriting down our HP, you know. If anything makes us drop our First From with Quickening we are turbofucked.

But we'll be getting better options with Bloodslayer. Progression spins our Legend on top of what we have (unless we're in the mood to steal our enemies' stuff), the more powerful our blood magic, the more it gets enhanced. A 7 Arete + 3 pick is a significant investment into the theme that pays off in stronger Blood Advancements.

I mean, yes, we can (and likely will) pursue Blood Magic in both options, just as we will buffing Gisena as we progress. But I want to see Bloodmagic more than I want to see Nullityplosions.
And this investment in Gown will likely give us more findross stuff in general; given our Pseudo-Grace. Compounding magic systems is something with Incredible power in these Quests and so getting another one may give far better returns than just more blood.
 
And this investment in Gown will likely give us more findross stuff in general; given our Pseudo-Grace. Compounding magic systems is something with Incredible power in these Quests and so getting another one may give far better returns than just more blood.
That's... really not the way I want to start our compounding. The main power goes into Gisena, we're just getting a pseudo-Grace and some +s as long as Evening Sky exists. It also doesn't have +Progression, so advancement will be slower.

Edit: Man, I think this is one of the most heavily argued votes so far.
 
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That's... really not the way I want to start our compounding. The main power goes into Gisena, we're just getting a pseudo-Grace and some +s as long as Evening Sky exists. It also doesn't have +Progression, so advancement will be slower.
Yes, but then we won't put all the eggs on the basket of our first form either. That +Progression is very deceptive when most of it only applies to 1/3 of our forms and arguably the most expendable one. When we are with our backs to the wall and most need power, we likely have already popped Second Form and Quickening won't be there to help us. It just frontloads our power massively and makes our other forms significantly less useful.
 
Man, I think I haven't been piled on this hard since Terrascape! Ahh, the nostalgia.
I really didn't mean to pile up on you, I am just having fun arguing. I can stop if you want?


17 times is a gross exaggeration. And better Nullity would give us way better mach-ups against foes that no amount of Stats could give. And usually if an option is a requirement for something it will say so. Can't think of an example otherwise, from Vanguard to the Martial Stances to Pearlescence. So I don't think an even more shiny option is hiding behind it, no. Safety is better anyway.
Funny enough, it's not an exaggeration.

Looking at the most extreme example, Bloodslayer, which has roughly 243% the effective Strength and 210% the effective Agility and Constitution* of your previous baseline, you would be striking at 17 times your prior power over baseline (at range!) with a Fell-Handed Stroke. With Gisena anticipating many enemy attacks, you could the start the windup to coincide with their appearance, allowing you to get a free alpha strike off!

The point is that you are getting something valuable for all your risk taken, Experience and Arete spent here. A 200% multiplier on physical stats is not just a simple doubling of power. For example, consider two builds with the exact same stats except that one has 200% the Agility of the other. The build with such an Agility lead would probably win at least 3 times to 1 against their otherwise doppelganger. While Strength and Constitution are not as influential, they still play a multiplicative role. So, while you may not be a full 2.4*2.1*2.1 = 10.5 times more powerful, you're probably at least 5-7 times more physically powerful from this single advancement point compared to your previous fleshly form baseline. And that's before accounting for A Thousand Cuts! Stats really are great!

*This is calculated by the actual underlying number, not the +s that you normally see


See above. There isn't a systemic nor even lore mention about helping others, just about channeling the power of Progression; something only we have. I don't think this will lead to an ally buff due to that.
I mean, I can say the same for the Evening Sky.

Again, pure stats are a very imperfect defense. Any bad touch or debuff effects that enemies rely on is much better countered by Saint than by Bloodmight, who just has to tank it. Attritional strategies don't limit themselves to attriting down our HP, you know. If anything makes us drop our First From with Quickening we are turbofucked.
Again, we still have Gisena with us. Hell, I can talk about the exact opposite of this scenario. Someone with raw stats that doesn't care about all the counters of Gisena who can easily burn through our forms.
Someone capable of droping us to our other forms in Bloodslayer are likely to fuck over Saint too.
 
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I mean, isn't this why we have her? What's the point of having her along if we could win on our own? We have her along specifically because her nullity magic can and does save our ass.
We'll be stuck fighting mages. It's specialized, and we all know how inconsistent this thread can be.. the next vote might well be to face off against an enemy to which Nullity matters not/very little (ex: A Knight Commander). Isn't wiser to hedge our bets? Plus, for Letrizia votes, Quickening can be coverted to buff the party at large instead of Str, which is Gisena-only!
It seems Rihaku disagrees with you. The above is despite the option taking Exhausted, even. Again, due to fucking magic Stats can't guarantee safety, especially from complications. If you want save advancement without complications go for Saint.
Given our past attitudes I disagree. We'll almost certainly go for another horrible monster, the horrible-st on offer, and the increased power from quickening would be incredibly vital. The increased safety only applies during the few hours in which Hunger is in 2nd form. And maybe more importantly, it scales so we can actually finish this danged temple alive.

Plus, like, the option itself says we can fix Lingering Paralysis quickly, so I don't know exactly how I am supposed to assert that the option is accurate.
17 times is a gross exaggeration. And better Nullity would give us way better mach-ups against foes that no amount of Stats could give. And usually if an option is a requirement for something it will say so. Can't think of an example otherwise, from Vanguard to the Martial Stances to Pearlescence. So I don't think an even more shiny option is hiding behind it, no. Safety is better anyway.
It's.. from a quote by Rihaku.
Again, pure stats are a very imperfect defense. Any bad touch or debuff effects that enemies rely on is much better countered by Saint than by Bloodmight, who just has to tank it. Attritional strategies don't limit themselves to attriting down our HP, you know. If anything makes us drop our First From with Quickening we are turbofucked.
Pure stats are a very versatile defence, applying to not-magic users. Like 50% of Star isn't useful against enemies which don't use magic.
 
Motherfucker, I am an idiot.

I just realized---our voting system is based on the Praxis.

What is the praxis powered by? Self and Sacrifice. For what purpose? To make an uncaring universe care.

Translating this into mechanics, the reason why votes aren't the only counting factor is due to self and sacrifice. It's force the tally system, an uncaring system who only bothers with tallied inputs, care via author prerogative.

My god is my brain so baked.

Epiphany aside, Bloodmight is convincing me again but I'm beginning to cave under all the death flags Gisena keeps raising. I'd really rather not lose Gisena as a character, on top of her being an actual remittance of Hunger's.
 
Yes, but then we won't put all the eggs on the basket of our first form either. That +Progression is very deceptive when most of it only applies to 1/3 of our forms and arguably the most expendable one. When we are with our backs to the wall and most need power, we likely have already popped Second Form and Quickening won't be there to help us. It just frontloads our power massively and makes our other forms significantly less useful.
I don't think the Gown has much of an advantage there - the stats boost gets removed when we lose the Mantle, so will we still have it by the time we're pushed into the corner? Personally, I feel like frontloading our power is an advantage, as we die less.

Not to mention how little I like planning to lose.

Edit: Which is hilarious in retrospect, since one of the Rage Form's draws was dying in order to take on higher-level opponents, but after all the deaths I'm not sure I support that tactic anymore.
 
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Motherfucker, I am an idiot.

I just realized---our voting system is based on the Praxis.

What is the praxis powered by? Self and Sacrifice. For what purpose? To make an uncaring universe care.

Translating this into mechanics, the reason why votes aren't the only counting factor is due to self and sacrifice. It's force the tally system, an uncaring system who only bothers with tallied inputs, care via author prerogative.

My god is my brain so baked.

Epiphany aside, Bloodmight is convincing me again but I'm beginning to cave under all the death flags Gisena keeps raising. I'd really rather not lose Gisena as a character, on top of her being an actual remittance of Hunger's.
Personally, i think personal power is the best way to keep Gisena safe right now and blood still buffs here in the future! The Full Ring vote is the one that need to worry about that most likely!

We might be able to choose our enemy again, in which case I would vote for Knight Commander, if it's once again an option. He wouldn't hurt Gisena!
 
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I really didn't mean to pile up on you, I am just having fun arguing. I can stop if you want?
Nah, I think it's fun too.
Funny enough, it's not an exaggeration.
It's.. from a quote by Rihaku.
There's a large difference "5-7 times stronger" and "17 times stronger". A very large one. Not to mention our Pseudo-Grace also gives Stats plus attack speed and we'd still have Thousand Cuts. The offensive gap isn't as large as you all make seem.
I mean, I can say the same to the Evening Sky.
But the option already enhances our teammates. There's no need to ask for evidence it can when it's staring at you in the face.
Again, we still have Gisena with us. Hell, I can talk about the exact opposite of this scenario. Someone with raw stats that doesn't care about all the counters of Gisena who can easily burn through our forms.
Someone capable of droping us to our other forms in Bloodslayer are likely to fuck over Saint too.
But Saint still gives us Stats and Thousand Cuts though, just not as much as Quickening. When it comes to hedging our bets Saint is much better in this regard.
Given our past attitudes I disagree. We'll almost certainly go for another horrible monster, the horrible-st on offer, and the increased power from quickening would be incredibly vital. The increased safety only applies during the few hours in which Hunger is in 2nd form. And maybe more importantly, it scales so we can actually finish this danged temple alive.
I mean, if we get another option like the Magus stats aren't going to cut it. And the Psudo-Grace scales a well, it's just not as powerful. Battles aren't just people comparing their stats to each other here.

Pure stats are a very versatile defence, applying to not-magic users. Like 50% of Star isn't useful against enemies which don't use magic.
This is a Soul Evocation civ. A civ that draws its power from a magical Moon Ring. The density of magic using enemies is extremely high. We won't run out of them, I assure you.
I don't think the Gown has much of an advantage there - the stats boost gets removed when we lose the Mantle, so will we still have it by the time we're pushed into the corner? Personally, I feel like frontloading our power is an advantage, as we die less.

Not to mention how little I like planning to lose.
We got Rage, so losing is an integral part of our strategy now!

Maybe still having scraps of the Evening Sky is much better than definitely not having Quickening. We also haven't died at all, we have just been using our Second Form a bunch. If we died, the quest would have ended already!
 
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