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A Simple Transaction I

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Dark Abstraction said:
That is how it would work, yes. Byzantine seems to have misunderstood the magnified overall ability to receive damage as Hunger having been healed by an equivalent amount to that heightened capacity. There is no indication that healing will occur, however, and the wording of the actual continuation vote options indicates it won't.
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Ah. Well, I'm of the opinion that doubling our effective HP is still pretty good. If we're pretty low HP right now, I don't know if AGI would help too much if we make the choice to retreat for a bit-- and I prefer this over the other Con increasing options. As much as possible, I'd like to restore our eye and our arm, but a 4 pick is a 4 pick.
 
Talace said:
Ah. Well, I'm of the opinion that doubling our effective HP is still pretty good. If we're pretty low HP right now, I don't know if AGI would help too much if we make the choice to retreat for a bit-- and I prefer this over the other Con increasing options. As much as possible, I'd like to restore our eye and our arm, but a 4 pick is a 4 pick.
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And Ruinous Valor is proving a pretty common pick, so we probably don't need to worry about it here.

Dreadnought is more of a problem on that front, but it also costs all our arete and provides no offensive boosts beyond the echo copy.
 
Byzantine said:
And Ruinous Valor is proving a pretty common pick, so we probably don't need to worry about it here.

Dreadnought is more of a problem on that front, but it also costs all our arete and provides no offensive boosts beyond the echo copy.
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Admittedly, the second eye is pretty cool. But what could be cooler than being a conceptual Tangela with very Gud Sord?
 
Byzantine said:
I just know Rihaku kept plugging increased Con as viable during the Hunt for Healing incident, so perhaps I do have it wrong.

Ah, yes, that's accurate. Assuming we meet resistance that can keep up with us, anyway. Which is apparently unlikely.
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If you go back and read the description of Undying Vanguard in Hunter Hunted, it seems to be saying that the amount of injury (HP%) stays the same with the gain, but that the total health increases so that each percentage is worth more.

Also, if we pick Stranglethorn, our effectiveness is really low due to our really low health; our ability to outspeed threats is likely hampered more by that than by the immediate -1.5 Agi of taking the power itself.
 
I just consider it a very temporary problem for a rather powerful boost. But again, I've failed to convince anyone so whatever.
 
Wolfy said:
Only :rofl:

Honestly, not understanding why BP doubling beats TSH is a rather big red flag, ngl.
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Dude, do you have to be so condescending?

You're underestimating TSH. Massively. TSH is like having Thrice-Great. A Diagram Mage (without Divine Orbs) with Ring with 40+ BP & Truth would seriously struggle to kill the Fates. In the Age of Truth it would have been outright impossible even with like 60+ BP.
Byzantine said:
I just consider it a very temporary problem for a rather powerful boost. But again, I've failed to convince anyone so whatever.
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'We could die' is very much not a temporary problem dude.

Why do you think Praxis/Progression lost, along with Tyrant Beast and Really Scenic Route? Our appetite for risk is not unlimited.
 
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But yeah, Blade focuses on Str/Con, Ring is stat neutral and Evening Focuses on Prot/Cha, mostly on former. Our build is going to gravitate towards being defensive and spamming blade winds at some point; Con and Prot just scale very well off each other. Take Stranglethorn and Pearlescence and tank for years.

And unlike previous Pearlescene meme this actually can hit back. Be new, improved wet blanked you always wanted to be!
 
Hmm, if we were to proc Form of Rage, our Agility problems would be solved... right? Maybe that's a good reason to go [] Keep Up Momentum with Stranglethorn.
 
Rune King will probably have huge ramifications on the magic system we are using: Accretion. Accretion is the backbone of our whole build and with 400% growth rate, TSH should be more than enough act as an offensive boost. Then we can pick up Wreath to further our goal of being a sorcerer warrior king.
 
Kirbstomp said:
Rune King will probably have huge ramifications on the magic system we are using: Accretion. Accretion is the backbone of our whole build and with 400% growth rate, TSH should be more than enough act as an offensive boost. Then we can pick up Wreath to further our goal of being a sorcerer warrior king.
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We already have TSH for Accretion. It does relatively little because Accretion doesn't have many limits(# of artifacts/defining slots are pretty much it) and TSH doesn't work well with Hunger.
 
Current vote count?

Zfglx said:
Is Hunger able to use the +echo effects of fruits grown with Hallow and how long do they last (if they are not permanent)?
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Yes, they're permanent. But they don't stack. So if you get +Echo from one, that's the only +Echo you're getting from Gardener. With work you might get ++Echo, which would overwrite the first +Echo. You can also give them to your friends, of course.

Shard said:
Are there options to gain magic system access that do not require us to spend Arete?
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Yup. They may not be as quick, easy, and powerful as the Arete options, of course. Though high-pick Defining Advancements are often competitive, though different in nature.
 
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Wolfy said:
We already have TSH for Accretion. It does relatively little because Accretion doesn't have many limits(# of artifacts/defining slots are pretty much it) and TSH doesn't work well with Hunger.
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Yeah, if we didn't have TSH for Accretion we'd probably give up the remaining arm for it. We do, though, so at least in the short term this gains us nothing at all.
 
It's uh... rather chaotic.
Adhoc vote count started by Byzantine on Jun 7, 2020 at 4:44 AM, finished with 283 posts and 38 votes.
  • [X] No
    [X] Hunger - Stranglethorn
    [X] Undying Vanguard
    [X] Retreat to the Antechamber
    [X] Yes, Obviously.
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Dreadnought's Bearing (7 Arete, 3 picks)
    -[X] Rune King
    [X] Keep Up Momentum
    [X] Yes, Obviously.
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)
    -[X] Zweihander
    [X] A Thousand Cuts [7 Arete]
    [X] Retreat to the Antechamber
    [X] Yes, Obviously.
    [X] The Ring of Power - Gardener's Hallow
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
    [X] Retreat to the Antechamber
    [X] Yes, Obviously.
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Dreadnought's Bearing
    -[X] Sharp of Eye
    [X] Retreat to the Antechamber
    [X] Yes, Obviously.
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Dreadnought's Bearing
    -[X] Sharp of Eye
    [X] Retreat to the Antechamber - You got lucky. Now stop gambling. Besides, you want to show Gisena your cool new... whatever.
    [X] Yes, Obviously.
    [X] Feat: Apex
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
    [X] A Thousand Cuts [7 Arete]
    [X] Keep Up Momentum
    [X] Yes, Obviously.
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Dreadnought's Bearing (7 Arete, 3 picks)
    [X] Keep Up Momentum
    [X] Yes, Obviously.
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)
    -[X] Zweihander
    [X] A Thousand Cuts [7 Arete]
    [X] Keep Up Momentum
    [X] Yes, Obviously.
    [X] Keep Up Momentum
    [X] Yes, Obviously.
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)
    [X] A Thousand Cuts [7 Arete]
    [X] Keep Up Momentum
    [X] No
    [X] Hunger - Stranglethorn
    [X] Retreat to the Antechamber
    [X] Yes, Obviously.
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Dreadnought's Bearing
    [X] Keep Up Momentum
    [X] Yes, Obviously.
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Ruinous Valor (3 picks)
    -[X] Zweihander
    [X] A Thousand Cuts [7 Arete]
    [X] Retreat to the Antechamber
    [X] Yes, Obviously.
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Dreadnought's Bearing (7 Arete, 3 picks)
    -[X] Sharp of Eye
    [X] Retreat to the Antechamber
    [X] Yes, Obviously.
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear x1
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear x2
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear x3
    [X] A Thousand Cuts [7 Arete]
    [X] Retreat to the Antechamber
    [X] Yes, Obviously.
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Dreadnought's Bearing (7 Arete, 3 picks)
    -[X] Sharp of Eye
    [X] Keep Up Momentum
    [X] Yes, Obviously.
    [X] 3x Echo of the Forebear
    [X] Thousand Cuts
    [X] Keep Up Momentum
    [X] Yes, Obviously.
    [X] Echo of the Forebear
    [X] Feat: Apex - +.2 Astral Rank (2 picks)
    [X] Yes, Obviously.
    [X] Forebear's Blade - Echo of the Forebear
    [X] The Ring of Power - Gardener's Hallow (7 Arete, 2 picks)
    [X] Retreat to the Antechamber
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Talace said:
Hmm, if we were to proc Form of Rage, our Agility problems would be solved... right? Maybe that's a good reason to go [] Keep Up Momentum with Stranglethorn.
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Something something bad characterization for Hunger. It hasn't been a full day since Hunger told himself that he'd keep FOR as a last resort, and we barely managed to keep that promise.

Using it as a "booster" just to fend off stranglethorn's strangling would look odd from a narrative perspective after the fact.
 
Byzantine said:
Yeah, if we didn't have TSH for Accretion we'd probably give up the remaining arm for it. We do, though, so at least in the short term this gains us nothing at all.
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Not really? TSH just doesn't do well with Hunger. To illustrate:

TSH: NOOOO YOU HAVE TO TRAIN TO BREAK YOUR LIMITS AND CHALLENGE THE HEAVEN NOOOOO
Hunger: hahaha sword goes stab
 
Rihaku said:
Yes, they're permanent. But they don't stack. So if you get +Echo from one, that's the only +Echo you're getting from Gardener. With work you might get ++Echo, which would overwrite the first +Echo. You can also give them to your friends, of course.
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Oh? I was afraid it was something like we can only eat some type of advancement once and need to pick and choose what and when we grow carefully, but it seems I misread the option.
 
Wolfy said:
We already have TSH for Accretion. It does relatively little because Accretion doesn't have many limits(# of artifacts/defining slots are pretty much it) and TSH doesn't work well with Hunger.
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Sacrificing TSH (along with permanently) for rank boosts was valued at +4 Ranks when we were at 3.5.

So basically it is like 30 picks worth of options. It's the strongest potential option.
Rihaku said:
Yup. They may no be as quick, easy, and powerful as the Arete options, of course. Though high-pick Defining Advancements are often competitive, though different in nature.
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That definitely alleviates my main concern about Rune King.
 
Wolfy said:
Not really? TSH just doesn't do well with Hunger. To illustrate:

TSH: NOOOO YOU HAVE TO TRAIN TO BREAK YOUR LIMITS AND CHALLENGE THE HEAVEN NOOOOO
Hunger: hahaha sword goes stab
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That is a good point.

Taka said:
Something something bad characterization for Hunger. It hasn't been a full day since Hunger told himself that he'd keep FOR as a last resort, and we barely managed to keep that promise.

Using it as a "booster" just to fend off stranglethorn's strangling would look odd from a narrative perspective after the fact.
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I think it would put Hunger's characterization as ridiculously unable to back down, no matter how tired or wounded. So FOR would be a last resort... but he'll end up pulling it more often because he just refuses to retreat.
 
Wolfy said:
Not really? TSH just doesn't do well with Hunger. To illustrate:

TSH: NOOOO YOU HAVE TO TRAIN TO BREAK YOUR LIMITS AND CHALLENGE THE HEAVEN NOOOOO
Hunger: hahaha sword goes stab
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Hunger exponentiates our skill growth by *10, which is already *4 due to TSH, so *40 total. What's your point here?

Fighting counts as training.
 
Wolfy said:
Not really? TSH just doesn't do well with Hunger. To illustrate:

TSH: NOOOO YOU HAVE TO TRAIN TO BREAK YOUR LIMITS AND CHALLENGE THE HEAVEN NOOOOO
Hunger: hahaha sword goes stab
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Rihaku said:
[ ] To Shatter Heaven - An additional exertion by the Accursed will modify the Remittance for superior intuitive compatibility with the Cursebearer, increasing rate of advancement for Skills pertinent to the Remittance by 400%. Conceptual limits of the Remittance can be broken with sufficient training.
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Ah it still applies because it says advancement and not training.
 
TSH provides options Accretion normally doesn't have. I doubt Philosopher's Wreath would be on the cards for Accretion without TSH, for example. Its like having Thrice Great, but better. In EFB, its what even allowed us to spend BP on Diagram Magic at all.

Unshattered is like taking Broken Kaleidoscope in that sense. Rune King is like selecting Thrice Great. Or I guess upgrading it to 4-times Great. Don't underestimate the power of compounding magical systems! We went through EFB, I figured it would be internalized to all of us at this point.

Having TSH with Accretion meant that all out special moves are basically reliable immediately. Remember that one of Accretion's weaknesses was unreliability. Yet our capabilities have been crazy reliable.

It also applies to Gardener if we select it. TSH +Hunger = *40 times speed for learning how do exploit the fuck out of the pure potential 7 Arete option. Makes it incredibly viable and tempting really. Meanwhile its competition is a 'Imma risk dying for short term buffs' vote combination.
 
[X] No
[X] Hunger - Stranglethorn
[X] Undying Vanguard
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber

I'd love to go ham here, but without any guarantee that Form of Rage will trigger we're really too weak to be going for the big plays.

Best to consolidate our gains and setup for the future
 
Do we know for a fact that Gisena is able to enter the Temple? The updates seem to hint that she can, but it's a pretty big determiner on whether I take Vanguard or not.
 
MoeDeathStar said:
[X] No
[X] Hunger - Stranglethorn
[X] Undying Vanguard
[X] Retreat to the Antechamber

I'd love to go ham here, but without any guarantee that Form of Rage will trigger we're really too weak to be going for the big plays.

Best to consolidate our gains and setup for the future
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I note there's a nontrivial chance of dying/proccong FOR with Stranglethorn.
 
Honestly, I am currently. It really feeling dreadnought or valor from a narrative point of view. Not that they are not great thematic upgrades or anything, but that I'm not really sure that in the current situation they fit the story beats as well as I'd like. I feel like stranglethorne (though I can't say I am fond of the minus agility and am leery of being on the edge of dead) and Gardner's Hallow (Though I must say I am biased towards making legendary upgrade plants) feel like more narratively compelling to me for killing a giant worm with ungodly vitality and defense (perhaps because it tunnels through the earth). Of course it could be argued that the worm's defense fits with dreadnought but I feel like the moment just isn't dramatic enough for regrowing an arm or an eye or sacrificing the opportunity for knowledge or power. I feel like this upgrades would work better after a more climactic battle not to diminish the fact that we nearly died. Also though I do feel it would be great to walk out of this dungeon more whole than she we entered it I do feel that given the nature of valor and dreadnought it feel like we are much more likely to see than again than Gardener's Hallow. Just some thoughts on the options.
 
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