A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
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This kind of is the plan for Imperishable Night though. The plans proposed are all about surviving the present and increasing Prot related things. A single +Prog won't outscale the Maiden (especially with Ring malus), and especially not Apocrypha which would have the Maiden there to make use of. Where would the picks and Arete come from?
It relies on a solution appearing from somewhere. Stalling isn't winning, as it would usually be with Progression thanks to Apo.
Edit: The blurb itself says the following.
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Aabcehmu
Confusion as a Natural State of Being
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No shame, but apparently you were wrong, Lea.
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Rihaku
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Indeed, considering that Inheritance Hunger's Rank suffices to contest endgame Nameless, and that this is insufficient alone to overcome the Maiden, it may be unwise to rely on optimistically proactive projections for those versions of Hunger who have less total dominion over reality...
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Fayhem
Definitely not an escaped SCP
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I don't think Imperishable Night actually requires we do either of those things, though. As I noted before, the benefits from Imperishable Night do not only apply while within the Cloak/Realm of Evening, so we aren't actually tied to stay within it - and "within it" covers the entire Human Sphere anyway. In other words, Imperishable Night doesn't bind us to one place, it just gives us a redoubt we can always retreat to if necessary. And said redoubt itself is actually highly mobile, since anywhere that falls within Hunger's Realm qualifies. And I outright don't know why we would somehow be locked into only advancing the Realm of Evening instead of all our abilities.
I'm not following you; that seems completely orthogonal to what I was actually talking about, since that didn't involve doing that at all. Beyond which, we're at the level where unless very specifically notated otherwise (as with Sanctum) physical limits and boundaries matter much less than conceptual ones. The blurb for Imperishable Night says that it applies the protection of the Cloak to all of Hunger's Realm, not to all of Hunger's contiguous Realm.
More generally, I rate an option that has less obvious power attached to it but good accompanying plans higher than an option that has more obvious power but literally no option-specific plans. And I do think Wolfy's plans are pretty good. The only plan I've seen proposed for Inheritance at all is when you said:
And the thing there is that both of those apply just as well to either other option. You can use these with any of the options, including Imperishable Night. So calling those plans for Inheritance seems like a bit of a misnomer, considering there's nothing about them that's specific to Inheritance. Well, to be fair, keeping her within the Sanctum would almost certainly get easier, which isn't nothing. But I very much don't like a strategy that requires accepting permanent damage paired with the option that does the least to give Hunger the ability to recover from that kind of damage afterwards.
...But the whole point of Imperishable Night, especially with Wolfy's actual strategies, is that it gives us viable alternatives to a simple head-on confrontation. I mean, yeah, if you take the strategy that one build relies on and the other doesn't and use that strategy as the sole point of comparison between them, of course the first build will look better. The problem there isn't your conclusion, it's your premise.
Aabcehmu
Confusion as a Natural State of Being
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I would like to note that on discord, Rihaku explicitly said that he wasn't advocating for Inheritance, just saying that BH and IN can't expect to be better at doing what Inheritance does than Inheritance, and that both will need different strategies.
OctarineShrike
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Zampano
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In the spirit of thinking about BH, I would like to point out that the domain of Battles will be operating at "maximized mastery" - that's a level of manipulation well-beyond even Space & Law after 9 months of Fault-Defeating Stance. Combined with more than a billion Wraith Echoes operating in concert, Hunger has troops to spare to ensure that the Maiden is constantly engaged in Battle. This means that Hunger will be able to leverage his mastery over the battlefield during the entire confrontation with the Maiden.
We were all impressed by Sanctum. It is definitely worth voting for BH to see what a fully mastered domain will look like!
It's worth noting that Aobaru receives the Battle Domain as well, which seriously improves his & Letrizia's chances of surviving the ambush. They will be operating at +20% stats via the Companions of the King teamwork bonus, and this will also apply to Aobaru's +10,000 Prowess. AoBHaru is stronk.
We were all impressed by Sanctum. It is definitely worth voting for BH to see what a fully mastered domain will look like!
It's worth noting that Aobaru receives the Battle Domain as well, which seriously improves his & Letrizia's chances of surviving the ambush. They will be operating at +20% stats via the Companions of the King teamwork bonus, and this will also apply to Aobaru's +10,000 Prowess. AoBHaru is stronk.
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OctarineShrike
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I don't think CotK works that way. We can get 40-50 percent the most they can get is 10 percent from our presence.
Zampano
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oops. maybe the Wraith Echoes will qualify for CotK, but I'll write that point off. "Maximized mastery of Battle Domain Aobaru" still seems like a pretty solid argument, though!
Is it weird that I'm imagining Blood Halo as having the highest odds of a non-annihilation result for both parties?
Obviously the Inheritance ending is sufficiently Tyrannical to fight the Maiden just because she showed up to fight. But the Imperishable Night is the one that pisses off the Maiden the most, because it's the one with the eternal bliss empire that no one had to earn, they just get to live in it because Hunger said so.
Blood Halo reduces our non-combat abilities, but more importantly it provides high incentive to not fight us directly. Nothing brings a foe to the bargaining table quite like overwhelming raw killing power. Even though our Uttermost dominion remains inviolate, facts are that Ceathlynn was questioning her resolve and the Maiden doesn't care about violence or Ruin. Hell, the latter is cognate to her signature Ever After technique.
It's strange to imagine adopting a Blood Halo and then going for white peace, but to match sacrifice with sacrifice is an excellent way to make clear that this is no idle domination fantasy on our part. We are committed to victory, but with Blood Halo the details can be debated and the terms negotiated. It could even be said that, with the Ring of War no more, peace becomes metaphysically possible. We seek only to live, and to grow strong. Willpower measured in curse mitigations be damned, surely Ceathlynn is not too far gone to tolerate that?
Obviously the Inheritance ending is sufficiently Tyrannical to fight the Maiden just because she showed up to fight. But the Imperishable Night is the one that pisses off the Maiden the most, because it's the one with the eternal bliss empire that no one had to earn, they just get to live in it because Hunger said so.
Blood Halo reduces our non-combat abilities, but more importantly it provides high incentive to not fight us directly. Nothing brings a foe to the bargaining table quite like overwhelming raw killing power. Even though our Uttermost dominion remains inviolate, facts are that Ceathlynn was questioning her resolve and the Maiden doesn't care about violence or Ruin. Hell, the latter is cognate to her signature Ever After technique.
It's strange to imagine adopting a Blood Halo and then going for white peace, but to match sacrifice with sacrifice is an excellent way to make clear that this is no idle domination fantasy on our part. We are committed to victory, but with Blood Halo the details can be debated and the terms negotiated. It could even be said that, with the Ring of War no more, peace becomes metaphysically possible. We seek only to live, and to grow strong. Willpower measured in curse mitigations be damned, surely Ceathlynn is not too far gone to tolerate that?
A list of some Maiden symbolic 'weaknesses' (not really, but it's all I could come up with) that we could attempt aiming for:
1. Her identity as the Maiden vs Ceathlynn.
It occurred to me that Sorceresses often advanced faster if they emulated the Maiden's behavior and character. So this might be just a case of the imitation improving depending on how close to the original it became, but it's also possible that the Maiden took on some restrictions to enhance her power, which expressed itself through her precepts.
E.g. things like purity of thought might be important for some of her Graces, so inciting worldly desires could have a good effect. This would be a completely hopeless endeavor if she was just the Maiden, but she has taken Ceathlynn as a vessel, and as such isn't just the Maiden anymore. Mind, Ceathlynn herself is pretty single-minded and obsessed with defeating Hunger, but she was still way more human than the Maiden before the merger, so something could be left over.
Her desire for revenge? An unwillingness to confront the resurrected Slumber Pilot, should we be able to convert him to our cause? Or even baser desires, though Gisena might not be enthused by attempts to seduce the enemy. Basically, she hopefully hasn't climbed high enough on the power ladder to ignore diplomancy.
2. Implicate Duty.
There are some irreconcilable differences in opinion between Hunger and the Maiden when it comes to how humanity should be governed. Could we also try debating her points? We didn't pick the Mute!Maiden option, so she should be capable of responding to arguments, though whether she would be willing is another question.
Of course I don't expect to convince her of anything or for her to start doubting her long-held beliefs. But forcing her to be explicit about her ideals could weaken her concept of Implicate Duty? Not sure how central it is to her being (might not be important at all), but it's not like we lose anything by trying political debate.
3. Story elements.
This is more relevant for BH, but Zampano's mentions of labeling the confrontation as Night vs Day and framing us as a just visionary made me think. Presenting the two of them as a conflicting duality is one way to go about it, but Hunger might also benefit from escaping the framework of yin vs yang, beginning vs ending, tyrant vs hero, good vs evil etc. Not sure how exactly, but one of the Accursed's titles is 'the sword by which all stories would end'. It might be just referring to the fact that he ends all power debates in this verse, but it could also have more meanings.
Not sure how much of a connection to the original Odyssial remains, but he could have something of a grudge against the Fair Folk? So 'unraveling stories' could be literal here, and findross' effects have reminded me of Fae and storytelling on more than one occasion. Maybe there is some crazy combination of Praxis technique and Nullity that would be especially effective at dispelling the Maiden's narrative? Grasping for straws here...
4. Findross.
Speaking of findross, we could make more targeted arrangements if we knew more about its origins. Other than that Edeldross was its precursor and that Edeldross plus Pressure (plus ?) could be catalyzed into findross? Anyway, if anyone has ideas on what weaknesses something like findross could have, that would be another vector of attack. Draining it is probably pointless, but could we transform it further, changing it into a form that isn't usable by the Maiden? If the magical substance could undergo such a transformation once, maybe it could be made to happen again. It could even be another way for Gisena to distinguish herself from the Maiden!
My ideas have run dry by now, but someone else will get inspired and propose effective plans against her. I can only hope.
659 Words
1. Her identity as the Maiden vs Ceathlynn.
It occurred to me that Sorceresses often advanced faster if they emulated the Maiden's behavior and character. So this might be just a case of the imitation improving depending on how close to the original it became, but it's also possible that the Maiden took on some restrictions to enhance her power, which expressed itself through her precepts.
E.g. things like purity of thought might be important for some of her Graces, so inciting worldly desires could have a good effect. This would be a completely hopeless endeavor if she was just the Maiden, but she has taken Ceathlynn as a vessel, and as such isn't just the Maiden anymore. Mind, Ceathlynn herself is pretty single-minded and obsessed with defeating Hunger, but she was still way more human than the Maiden before the merger, so something could be left over.
Her desire for revenge? An unwillingness to confront the resurrected Slumber Pilot, should we be able to convert him to our cause? Or even baser desires, though Gisena might not be enthused by attempts to seduce the enemy. Basically, she hopefully hasn't climbed high enough on the power ladder to ignore diplomancy.
2. Implicate Duty.
There are some irreconcilable differences in opinion between Hunger and the Maiden when it comes to how humanity should be governed. Could we also try debating her points? We didn't pick the Mute!Maiden option, so she should be capable of responding to arguments, though whether she would be willing is another question.
Of course I don't expect to convince her of anything or for her to start doubting her long-held beliefs. But forcing her to be explicit about her ideals could weaken her concept of Implicate Duty? Not sure how central it is to her being (might not be important at all), but it's not like we lose anything by trying political debate.
3. Story elements.
This is more relevant for BH, but Zampano's mentions of labeling the confrontation as Night vs Day and framing us as a just visionary made me think. Presenting the two of them as a conflicting duality is one way to go about it, but Hunger might also benefit from escaping the framework of yin vs yang, beginning vs ending, tyrant vs hero, good vs evil etc. Not sure how exactly, but one of the Accursed's titles is 'the sword by which all stories would end'. It might be just referring to the fact that he ends all power debates in this verse, but it could also have more meanings.
Not sure how much of a connection to the original Odyssial remains, but he could have something of a grudge against the Fair Folk? So 'unraveling stories' could be literal here, and findross' effects have reminded me of Fae and storytelling on more than one occasion. Maybe there is some crazy combination of Praxis technique and Nullity that would be especially effective at dispelling the Maiden's narrative? Grasping for straws here...
4. Findross.
Speaking of findross, we could make more targeted arrangements if we knew more about its origins. Other than that Edeldross was its precursor and that Edeldross plus Pressure (plus ?) could be catalyzed into findross? Anyway, if anyone has ideas on what weaknesses something like findross could have, that would be another vector of attack. Draining it is probably pointless, but could we transform it further, changing it into a form that isn't usable by the Maiden? If the magical substance could undergo such a transformation once, maybe it could be made to happen again. It could even be another way for Gisena to distinguish herself from the Maiden!
My ideas have run dry by now, but someone else will get inspired and propose effective plans against her. I can only hope.
659 Words
Zampano
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Sure. Let it never be said that I rejected a transaction, or accepted a simple trade when a complicated one could be found instead.
In 72 hours I'll consolidate to the leading martial option.
Rihaku all but spelled out that there are some issues with the plan:
IN Hunger will need to Progress a lot further before he can act against her in any way.
Birdsie
Sharp Talons Cleave The Worthy
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If we're going with SCP-style Advancements, then Blood Halo would fit much better!
O Scarlet King,
You who are my lord, arisen,
O Crimson Ring,
Foolish Maiden now imprison!
Zampano
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@Gabriel97 I am calling your vote marker. Please vote for Blood Halo.
Strange9
hdellaverson@gmail.com
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The pact is sealed!
[X] The Forebear's Blade - Inheritance
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Are we sure that's actually the case? I agree that was a belief in AST, but I also recall there was debate on the matter- one sorceress thought it was just chance, and the nature of Sorcerous transformation as something you can just make happen with graces or sufficiently-concentrated Findross are points in favor of that.
Gisena at least seemed to believe it was the case, though I don't remember the exact chapter it was mentioned.
Only found these quotes after a quick search:
Seems to imply that acting in accordance with the Maiden's vision helps.
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Taking in some parallels:
Given there's an option for Hunger to become the Forebear in truth/power, wouldn't the Maiden have had sufficient infinite time to consolidate with Cat?
The whole I am she and she is I thing. No true separation between the two individuals because they aren't individuals anymore
To act as Cat is to act as the Maiden, thus all actions would speed up whatever maximization thing they've got going on even after they leave the daylight realm??
Given there's an option for Hunger to become the Forebear in truth/power, wouldn't the Maiden have had sufficient infinite time to consolidate with Cat?
The whole I am she and she is I thing. No true separation between the two individuals because they aren't individuals anymore
To act as Cat is to act as the Maiden, thus all actions would speed up whatever maximization thing they've got going on even after they leave the daylight realm??