Magical_Duck
The One Who Quacks
- Location
- A Pond
- Pronouns
- Duck
"Qu Quac Quack?"
A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
"Qu Quac Quack?"
Magical_Duck
The One Who Quacks
- Location
- A Pond
- Pronouns
- Duck
[X] A House Divided
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Relevant bits from Mordred
Relevant bits from the Shogun
Aobaru is aware of the Doom of the Tyrant
What the Shogun is telling Aobaru he's fighting for/What Aobaru thinks he's fighting for
Concerns about being taken seriously?
INDENTURE THREAT WARNING?
Summation: Aobaru must get his desire(Us weakened and Dien gone), be defeated in a way that preserves his pride, or Hunger must successfully talk him down. We need to remember that the Shogun is riding along with Aobaru too, and the Shogun wants the entire universe.
If things go sufficiently far south, whether by Aobaru's death somehow, or his Aura making the residents of the Human Sphere stop qualifying as human beings to trigger indenture, we have serious problems or are dead. If Dien annihilates the Human Sphere, we are dead.
Work with Dien against Aobaru: Changes the game. Tanks reconcilation prospects and makes us look like a petty bastard tyrant.
Concede that Aobaru got us and Fight Dien: May lead to reconciliation, may lead to Shogunbaru setting up his own realm in the 10% of the human sphere we don't control. May say things to the Shogun about us. I don't know. Given our typical loss aversion though I can't help but wonder if Rihaku put the best overall outcome down this route. The Shogun is hypercompetent when it comes to military matters.
Seal of Ruin Aobaru: Requires us to engage Dien and Aobaru simultaneously or give Dien time to target the Human Sphere. Maybe Aobaru will intervene and save people, they both want to help people, the Shogun fancies themself an enlightened despot. More face preserving for us vs the Shogun but possibly more degrading for Aobaru if we succeed.
Fight Aobaru seriously: Let's Dien target the Human sphere while we give Aobaru his wish. We fight him seriously. High indenture risk but reasonable odds of reconciliation I think. Tells the shogun we aren't going to hold back for sentimental reasons, even if the cosmos burns at diens hands.
This is a seriously hard decision. Just...
[x]Full Speed Ahead
Relevant bits from the Shogun
Aobaru is aware of the Doom of the Tyrant
What the Shogun is telling Aobaru he's fighting for/What Aobaru thinks he's fighting for
Concerns about being taken seriously?
INDENTURE THREAT WARNING?
Summation: Aobaru must get his desire(Us weakened and Dien gone), be defeated in a way that preserves his pride, or Hunger must successfully talk him down. We need to remember that the Shogun is riding along with Aobaru too, and the Shogun wants the entire universe.
If things go sufficiently far south, whether by Aobaru's death somehow, or his Aura making the residents of the Human Sphere stop qualifying as human beings to trigger indenture, we have serious problems or are dead. If Dien annihilates the Human Sphere, we are dead.
Work with Dien against Aobaru: Changes the game. Tanks reconcilation prospects and makes us look like a petty bastard tyrant.
Concede that Aobaru got us and Fight Dien: May lead to reconciliation, may lead to Shogunbaru setting up his own realm in the 10% of the human sphere we don't control. May say things to the Shogun about us. I don't know. Given our typical loss aversion though I can't help but wonder if Rihaku put the best overall outcome down this route. The Shogun is hypercompetent when it comes to military matters.
Seal of Ruin Aobaru: Requires us to engage Dien and Aobaru simultaneously or give Dien time to target the Human Sphere. Maybe Aobaru will intervene and save people, they both want to help people, the Shogun fancies themself an enlightened despot. More face preserving for us vs the Shogun but possibly more degrading for Aobaru if we succeed.
Fight Aobaru seriously: Let's Dien target the Human sphere while we give Aobaru his wish. We fight him seriously. High indenture risk but reasonable odds of reconciliation I think. Tells the shogun we aren't going to hold back for sentimental reasons, even if the cosmos burns at diens hands.
This is a seriously hard decision. Just...
[x]Full Speed Ahead
Last edited:
Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
So there are four relevant factors in this situation: Hunger, Dien, Aobaru and the Human Sphere. I'm counting out the Apocryphal for the short term because I think it's going to need rest after this absurdity.
Hunger: Suffers non-trivial harm to spirit or essence, might receive a pick from killing Dien
Dien: Annihilated
Aobaru: Further masters his new powers, might become too powerful for a non-lethal solution or that solution might involve serious diminishment.
The Human Sphere: Minimal damage
Hunger: Either even further harm or else allows the Human Sphere to be damaged, risking our defeat via Indenture
Dien: Risks his contingencies coming into play
Aobaru: Minimises both immediate power and future Advancement but might still allow him to escape and trouble us another day unless we proactively hunt him down. Risks the Terminator becoming a relevant factor again.
The Human Sphere: See Hunger
Hunger: Minimal personal danger, might generate a pick from subduing Aobaru
Dien: Gives him effectively free reign until Aobaru is subdued. Might generate new potential via rampant consumption or allow his various contingencies to come into play.
Aobaru: Totally subdued, no longer capable of threatening us.
The Human Sphere: Suffers serious damage from Dien, might risk destruction outright
[X] Usurpation Containment Wave
In the end, Full Speed risks us having to kill Aobaru and after this horseshit, I'd really rather not deal with more Apocryphal nonsense for a minute or two.
Hunger: Suffers non-trivial harm to spirit or essence, might receive a pick from killing Dien
Dien: Annihilated
Aobaru: Further masters his new powers, might become too powerful for a non-lethal solution or that solution might involve serious diminishment.
The Human Sphere: Minimal damage
Hunger: Either even further harm or else allows the Human Sphere to be damaged, risking our defeat via Indenture
Dien: Risks his contingencies coming into play
Aobaru: Minimises both immediate power and future Advancement but might still allow him to escape and trouble us another day unless we proactively hunt him down. Risks the Terminator becoming a relevant factor again.
The Human Sphere: See Hunger
Hunger: Minimal personal danger, might generate a pick from subduing Aobaru
Dien: Gives him effectively free reign until Aobaru is subdued. Might generate new potential via rampant consumption or allow his various contingencies to come into play.
Aobaru: Totally subdued, no longer capable of threatening us.
The Human Sphere: Suffers serious damage from Dien, might risk destruction outright
[X] Usurpation Containment Wave
In the end, Full Speed risks us having to kill Aobaru and after this horseshit, I'd really rather not deal with more Apocryphal nonsense for a minute or two.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Galaxy Brain moment. We may be able to, depending on Aobaru's level of faith in us, ally with Dien to backstab Dien. How to communicate our intent to him without Dien knowing, I have no idea. It also seems insanely risky.
But some part of me wanted to give it another look, incase all the options sucking except the one with Write-ins was something I was actually right about. Remember the tactics part associated with Joining Dien?
But some part of me wanted to give it another look, incase all the options sucking except the one with Write-ins was something I was actually right about. Remember the tactics part associated with Joining Dien?
Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I could see us taking House Divided and then focusing entirely on social tactics to talk Aobaru down. With his support, Dien should be much easier to handle even if his various schemes pay out. If nothing else, we could just convert any relevant beings in the Human Sphere into spiritual entities and put them beyond his powers like that.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Unless the Spiritual entity conversion causes indenture failure because Human Sphere.
- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
That still confuses me. Do human souls not count as humans? Pumping lungs and the like don't seem to matter as much as being, you know, alive. Do spiritual entities not count as alive or what?
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Depends on if the Geas of Indenture runs on Fate Apocrypha logic. Shirou Amakusa's plan was treated as a travesty/end of human evolution in Fate Apocrypha, turning everybody into spirits and creating Utopia IIRC.
Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well, assuming we fail to talk Aobaru down or beat him so thoroughly that his enmity is irreconcilable even with Haeliel's counselling, we could always just shove him in a prison and figure out some way of extracting his powers for our use temporarily. It's not like we need him to like us for us to get use out of his long term Apocryphal mitigation.
- Pronouns
- They
You make a convincing argument, good sir! The irony of such a scene compels me to vote.
Edited-my fickle heart has swayed in the opposite direction.
[X] Full Speed Ahead
Last edited:
So, how much of what the Shogun said is true, and how much isn't?
So the claim is that the Foremost created the Voyaging Realm, and the Elixir springs, and the Vigorflame. For some reason, they had a way to dispense one of their "finest weapons" via bathing.
The original Foremost having some sort of automated system for handing out the power is possible I suppose; the Elixir springs were time-limited, appearing then slowly fading away, so perhaps all the lesser powers were handed out to lure in possible Chosen One candidates while the spring searched for someone worthy of the Vigorflame. And it's certainly likely that the Foremost created the Voyaging Realm. And Vigorflame, which is a heroic power, is exactly the sort of thing that a Foremost Hero would create and use.
I still think the Apocryphal intervened here, but it's possible the intervention was that it messed with time to insure both the appearance of the springs and the arrival of a suitable wielder in the form of Aobaru. In that case what the Shogun says here would be at least partially true.
Once again, the Foremost are shockingly well-informed when it comes to Cursebearers. Dien mentioned traveling with the other Foremost from world to world, do that for long enough and I could see them encountering at least a few Cursebearers.
Anyways, the Shogun tries to convince Aobaru that he cannot be free unless he can prove he's more powerful than Hunger. Basically, as long as there is anyone stronger than you, anywhere, you can't be free. The Accursed might approve of this attitude, but I think most people would think this a bit much. For instance, there's nothing stopping Aobaru from carving out a kingdom in the Voyaging Realm or outside the Human sphere. He doesn't need Hunger's permission for that.
Also, what's with the obsession with carving out kingdoms? Why would anyone want to be king? Imagine actually wanting to be responsible for the lives of millions/billions/trillions of people. Such a hassle.
Recall that the Apocryphal, which is almost certainly in some way responsible for Aobaru, was called "the bane of heroes". And that there's a Foremost Caste called Heroes.
Maybe this is how new Foremost Heroes like Dien are born? Given their reckless love for battle I could easily see them needing some way to reproduce. Perhaps the Voyaging Realm was created to be a Foremost cradle?
Obvious nonsense, given the never-ending, life-threatening battles Hunger fought in that realm. I would consider any "game" where you risk dying as having "real stakes".
...
Overall, I rate Aobaru's decision making skills as being deficient but still superior to that of the thread, because if it was one of us in that position we'd probably jump for the shinies straight away and damn the consequences. At least Aobaru needed to be convinced.
The Shogun should have just opened with the power bribe. "I'll give you 50+ arete worth of advantages." Update over, RIP Hunger.
So the claim is that the Foremost created the Voyaging Realm, and the Elixir springs, and the Vigorflame. For some reason, they had a way to dispense one of their "finest weapons" via bathing.
The original Foremost having some sort of automated system for handing out the power is possible I suppose; the Elixir springs were time-limited, appearing then slowly fading away, so perhaps all the lesser powers were handed out to lure in possible Chosen One candidates while the spring searched for someone worthy of the Vigorflame. And it's certainly likely that the Foremost created the Voyaging Realm. And Vigorflame, which is a heroic power, is exactly the sort of thing that a Foremost Hero would create and use.
I still think the Apocryphal intervened here, but it's possible the intervention was that it messed with time to insure both the appearance of the springs and the arrival of a suitable wielder in the form of Aobaru. In that case what the Shogun says here would be at least partially true.
Once again, the Foremost are shockingly well-informed when it comes to Cursebearers. Dien mentioned traveling with the other Foremost from world to world, do that for long enough and I could see them encountering at least a few Cursebearers.
Anyways, the Shogun tries to convince Aobaru that he cannot be free unless he can prove he's more powerful than Hunger. Basically, as long as there is anyone stronger than you, anywhere, you can't be free. The Accursed might approve of this attitude, but I think most people would think this a bit much. For instance, there's nothing stopping Aobaru from carving out a kingdom in the Voyaging Realm or outside the Human sphere. He doesn't need Hunger's permission for that.
Also, what's with the obsession with carving out kingdoms? Why would anyone want to be king? Imagine actually wanting to be responsible for the lives of millions/billions/trillions of people. Such a hassle.
Recall that the Apocryphal, which is almost certainly in some way responsible for Aobaru, was called "the bane of heroes". And that there's a Foremost Caste called Heroes.
Maybe this is how new Foremost Heroes like Dien are born? Given their reckless love for battle I could easily see them needing some way to reproduce. Perhaps the Voyaging Realm was created to be a Foremost cradle?
Obvious nonsense, given the never-ending, life-threatening battles Hunger fought in that realm. I would consider any "game" where you risk dying as having "real stakes".
...
Overall, I rate Aobaru's decision making skills as being deficient but still superior to that of the thread, because if it was one of us in that position we'd probably jump for the shinies straight away and damn the consequences. At least Aobaru needed to be convinced.
The Shogun should have just opened with the power bribe. "I'll give you 50+ arete worth of advantages." Update over, RIP Hunger.
- Location
- US
- Location
- Louisiana
[X] A House Divided
Yeah we kinda gotta deal with Aobaru now, Dien is bad but I think with proper social arguments we can get Aobaru to assist us with anything Dien concocts. You can tell from the update he was kind of like "... why would I do that?" It was only through extreme apocryphal intervention and the skillful manipulation of the Shogun that this was possible at all. If we can push through the Shogun mental contamination and get Aobaru to yield we can focus both of their powers on containing Dien.
Yeah we kinda gotta deal with Aobaru now, Dien is bad but I think with proper social arguments we can get Aobaru to assist us with anything Dien concocts. You can tell from the update he was kind of like "... why would I do that?" It was only through extreme apocryphal intervention and the skillful manipulation of the Shogun that this was possible at all. If we can push through the Shogun mental contamination and get Aobaru to yield we can focus both of their powers on containing Dien.
- Location
- Peterborough, NH, USA
Huh. Good point Vali.
Hunger: You realize the Voyaging Realm doesn't count as part of the Human Sphere right? Why not take it over if you want to be my equal? Come talk to me after spending a year responsible for billions of lives, see how much you want to be king then. You've already got Foremost and Chosen One admin privileges, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to do that alone with this power-up.
Or, alternatively.
Hunger: You realize Dien's strength lies in roundabout methods and contingencies right? Do you actually think might alone will let you carry the day if you succeed in weakening me? You say you learned age and treachery from me. Here's your second lesson. More power won't always carry the day, and I'm counting combat skill as power, as I of all people can attest that they're basically the same thing at high enough levels. Why do you think I got that Advancement to give you all a Rank immediately below my own? Sure, it was meant to bolster Gisena and protect Adorie in particular, but ignoring any emotional attachments, I protect them because they have specializations I don't. Pooling disparate skillsets, ones that you lack, is the entire point of civilization!
My Soul Evocation is a counter to Dien by virtue of always having an answer, through sheer versatility, and can you honestly say you see me tossing aside Gisena just because I might be able to replicate Nullity's effects with Archmage's Domains? Your empowered Vigorflame is potent, don't get me wrong, but what will you do if he, for example, takes a page from your book and absorbs the Arcanist, then uses his newfound prowess in manipulating metaphysics to weaken the barrier between the Astral and physical realms? He already exists in numerous higher and lower dimensions, and your Shogun side should know that Dien would do anything to win, just as it would do anything to rule. Exuding your Element to reinforce that barrier would leave you personally weaker, and threaten to destroy this reality entirely, leaving me to try and fight Dien while you kept him from leveraging bolstered Rank against us, with the ticking clock of Geas failure by way of destroyed universe hanging over the both of us, since you live here. You are the hammer to my scalpel, despite your greater martial skill. You could destroy his current avatar, but can you handle his contingencies? Perhaps with sufficient skill, but giving the Surgeon time to plan or grow is only a little less of a bad idea than the Arcanist or Spider, and you are much more suited to combat than bolstering effects post-fusion.
Hunger: You realize the Voyaging Realm doesn't count as part of the Human Sphere right? Why not take it over if you want to be my equal? Come talk to me after spending a year responsible for billions of lives, see how much you want to be king then. You've already got Foremost and Chosen One admin privileges, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to do that alone with this power-up.
Or, alternatively.
Hunger: You realize Dien's strength lies in roundabout methods and contingencies right? Do you actually think might alone will let you carry the day if you succeed in weakening me? You say you learned age and treachery from me. Here's your second lesson. More power won't always carry the day, and I'm counting combat skill as power, as I of all people can attest that they're basically the same thing at high enough levels. Why do you think I got that Advancement to give you all a Rank immediately below my own? Sure, it was meant to bolster Gisena and protect Adorie in particular, but ignoring any emotional attachments, I protect them because they have specializations I don't. Pooling disparate skillsets, ones that you lack, is the entire point of civilization!
My Soul Evocation is a counter to Dien by virtue of always having an answer, through sheer versatility, and can you honestly say you see me tossing aside Gisena just because I might be able to replicate Nullity's effects with Archmage's Domains? Your empowered Vigorflame is potent, don't get me wrong, but what will you do if he, for example, takes a page from your book and absorbs the Arcanist, then uses his newfound prowess in manipulating metaphysics to weaken the barrier between the Astral and physical realms? He already exists in numerous higher and lower dimensions, and your Shogun side should know that Dien would do anything to win, just as it would do anything to rule. Exuding your Element to reinforce that barrier would leave you personally weaker, and threaten to destroy this reality entirely, leaving me to try and fight Dien while you kept him from leveraging bolstered Rank against us, with the ticking clock of Geas failure by way of destroyed universe hanging over the both of us, since you live here. You are the hammer to my scalpel, despite your greater martial skill. You could destroy his current avatar, but can you handle his contingencies? Perhaps with sufficient skill, but giving the Surgeon time to plan or grow is only a little less of a bad idea than the Arcanist or Spider, and you are much more suited to combat than bolstering effects post-fusion.
Last edited:
ImperatorV
The Laughing One
- Location
- The Voyaging Realm
I don't like this mono-focus on one option. It's not a Rihaku quest unless the outcome is in doubt to the last hour.
[X] Full Speed Ahead
[X] Full Speed Ahead
Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Y'know, it's a shame Hunger can't just like... leave. I'd bet if Hunger disappeared and Aobaru had the choice between stopping Dien and spending his time searching the entirety of the observable universe, he might pick the former. Even with the Shogun influencing his priorities, you can't exactly dominate the universe if there's no universe left to dominate!
Man we already expended Refinement of War and lost Nova's arm. This is getting pretty spicy.
I guess the easiest way to get Shogun on our side is to offer him endless multiversal conquest. Which would mean leaving Adorie behind but you know, it is what it is.
[X] Full Speed Ahead
Just take the L I guess.
I guess the easiest way to get Shogun on our side is to offer him endless multiversal conquest. Which would mean leaving Adorie behind but you know, it is what it is.
[X] Full Speed Ahead
Just take the L I guess.
Fayhem
Definitely not an escaped SCP
- Location
- At large
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Full Speed Ahead
-[X] Argument for Aobaru: "You say your only chance is treachery - but you're not betraying me, not really. You're betraying the billions of people whose lives you're prepared to discard because you value them less than your chance at glory. Who did you learn THAT from? It's not a hero's choice. You say you learned this kind of stratagem from me, but when Procyon came to attack Nilfel, I put myself between the enemy and the innocent civilians, even at tremendous personal risk, even though I could have vastly enhanced my odds of victory by allowing him free rein for a time. You're doing the opposite - you're using my unwillingness to accept mass civilian casualties to protect yourself. What do you seek, to claim your destiny in truth? Know this, Aobaru - even if you win like this, a hero isn't what you'll be. I'm not ignoring your attacks because I don't see you as a threat; you're a greater threat to me personally than Dien is. I'm ignoring your attacks because I'm worthy to rule, and you aren't. Beating me in a fight can't change that."
Hopefully this is a valid write-in. I figure we can spare enough attention to talk to the boy even while fighting, what with all our ridiculousness.
-[X] Argument for Aobaru: "You say your only chance is treachery - but you're not betraying me, not really. You're betraying the billions of people whose lives you're prepared to discard because you value them less than your chance at glory. Who did you learn THAT from? It's not a hero's choice. You say you learned this kind of stratagem from me, but when Procyon came to attack Nilfel, I put myself between the enemy and the innocent civilians, even at tremendous personal risk, even though I could have vastly enhanced my odds of victory by allowing him free rein for a time. You're doing the opposite - you're using my unwillingness to accept mass civilian casualties to protect yourself. What do you seek, to claim your destiny in truth? Know this, Aobaru - even if you win like this, a hero isn't what you'll be. I'm not ignoring your attacks because I don't see you as a threat; you're a greater threat to me personally than Dien is. I'm ignoring your attacks because I'm worthy to rule, and you aren't. Beating me in a fight can't change that."
Hopefully this is a valid write-in. I figure we can spare enough attention to talk to the boy even while fighting, what with all our ridiculousness.
Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Y'know, it's a shame Hunger can't just like... leave. I'd bet if Hunger disappeared and Aobaru had the choice between stopping Dien and spending his time searching the entirety of the observable universe, he might pick the former. Even with the Shogun influencing his priorities, you can't exactly dominate the universe if there's no universe left to dominate!
