[X] Make For Civilization
[X] +0.5 Arete

Because right, we didn't take the ability that lets us have a Hunting Compass.

And honestly, outside of all the cons and pros being discussed for going into civilisation, the one thing that came to me throughout the day was:

What Would Liefang Do? Half our build practically relies on socialising, and actually having a base of operations for the time being to scale and recuperate would be a lot better than hoping we can find another fishing spot.
 
Hm... you don't have Scent of Prey, but you did take the Rank boost instead, which means you can more safely combat the monsters you do encounter, and makes it slightly more likely that you'll have favorable encounters. I wouldn't say any of the options are truly bad, though Temple is certainly... a more all-in decision.
 
This is just straight up bad faith. Being warned we didn't take an Arete option that would optimize for it doesn't remotely mean it's explicitly shit.
In fact, it's explicitly a good option:
It's not as though we needed Scent to force the world into coughing up an appropriate monster to steal healing powers from. It becomes less efficient than it would be if we had Scent but then lot's of options are less efficient than they would be if we had the perfect tradeoffs. Make for Civilization isn't as efficient as it would be if we'd taken some form of Tyrant mitigation, much in the same way the Temple isn't as good as it could be because we allowed Versh to get damaged and didn't hunt down Ber, meaning anyone or anything we leave outside is in serious danger.

Meanwhile, in reality, what Hunt actually states that the risk to reward ratio involved is good, probably better than Make for Civilization. You using the word "explicitly" doesn't actually change the text of the option, y'know?
Alright, let me do Questing 101 because this is apparently not obvious.

Each option has absolute value. This value tends to be mostly similar. For example, a sword that cuts through everything and spear that cuts through everything are mostly of same utility. Then there is relevant value - if you are swordsman sword that can cut through everything would be much more valuable than spear than can do the same despite both having similar absolute value. We at the same page?

Alright, we have three options - Moon, Hunt and Civ. Of those three Moon is the one that has highest absolute value as it is both result of reward and is time limited, while other two can be done at any point(provided that we are in voyaging realm). Hunt and Civ have similar absolute value in so far that you can do them at any point of time.

Now, Hunger benefits for battles the most, and rando monsters are easiest and most morally acceptable targets. However, we didn't pick murder blender option(which was a thing we offered and which we explicitly turned down), we choose hybrid option that put a ton of shit into social - which Civ makes use of and which Hunt makes absolutely no use of. Not picking murder blender option and then trying to murder blender anyway is just pointless, which is why we were getting fucked last few updates and why we had to buy bunch of inefficient options just to survive. Additionally:
You do have a considerable amount of Arete that could be expended at a spending point to improve your chances! Power compounds upon power, after all. And Hunting is not as efficient as it would be with Scent of Prey.
Scent was, again, something that was offered and that we turned down. You turned down both combat build and tracking power, and still want to do gameplay that those wanted to do anyway?

Hunt is a shit option because it does things our build doesn't excel at. We can go and kill monsters. And we will have to bleed Arete along the way because that's simply not a thing we are good at. We refused to pick El Stats. We refused to pick Scent. We refused to pick Force Unto. You can't refuse to pick all the choices that enable certain gameplay then pick that gameplay anyway. That just doesn't work.

Tl'dr Hunt is a shit option don't pick it
 
Tl'dr Hunt is a shit option don't pick it
I wouldn't say any of the options are truly bad, though Temple is certainly... a more all-in decision.

Hunt isn't a bad option, and honestly I want to read more giant monster fights. It would be more controlled if we had scent because then we could probably search for specific things we want, but even without scent it's a good choice.
 
However, we didn't pick murder blender option(which was a thing we offered and which we explicitly turned down), we choose hybrid option that put a ton of shit into social - which Civ makes use of and which Hunt makes absolutely no use of.

We put like two choices into social options, both of which were at least equally relevant to combat. To say we've put a "ton of shit" into social is just counterfactual. I really don't need a lecture from someone who is misrepresenting and/or misreading the options involved here.

You turned down both combat build and tracking power, and still want to do gameplay that those wanted to do anyway?

You turned down the Tyrant Mitigation and ally empowerment and want to do social gameplay or party adventuring anyway? No option is maximally efficient with all of the choices we've made so far, that's just the nature of questing. To say that this inefficiency makes an option irredeemably bad while entirely ignoring the existence of other inefficiencies is kinda silly, y'know?
 
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Jesus fuck, not having Scent doesn't make Hunt shit. It's explicitly better rewards-wise than make for Civilization. Don't fall for this bullshit.

So I guess you come from bizzaro world where we didn't had to burn last two votes just to survive.
Yes, money would have been very helpful in catching that fish, right. Don't say "money could buy something helpful" because being stronger would have been even more helpful.
And same argument could be made against Hunt as it uses same mechanics to find relevant beasts - indeed, people who vote Moon could decide to make such argument. Not someone arguing for Hunt. Especially not someone arguing for Hunt, as Hunt is explicitly shit option as we lack Scent.
Jesus fuck, you are accusing me of "distracted by all the cool things we could get" while going "but think of what high risk could get us!".

Look, let me put this simple. Hunt is a shit option. Picking it shows clear lack of basic understanding of how value of options works. Hunt is shit because thing that makes it good(Scent) is not there, while other options have things that make them good(focus on social and one-time offer/being a reward). Picking a Hunt is objectively a bad thing to do. There is nothing to discuss there.

You have no real plan. Your idea of plan is, in essence, "lets do same thing we were doing so far and hope that it will work out this time, somehow". Before even thinking about Hunt, take some time and do explain the thread why this wouldn't end up in another disaster where were close to rolling for survival.

Meanwhile, idea behind Civ seeks to make maximum use of everything we have(instead of trying to play gameplay we didn't pick for) to obtain a clearly defined goal. We use our Charisma. We use Gisena. We use Letrizia's technology. We use our power to gain money. Then we use all of that to buy short term power which allows us to save Arete towards some goal. Simple, easy, uses our strengths.
Where the fuck did this "we don't have Scent, therefore it's shit" come from. We didn't need Scent for healing, why the fuck would it make our break the option here? It explicit offers better rewards for risks than Civ. What is there to argue?

What put us in such a troublesome situation isn't going hunting or not going hunting, but the thread picking several risky options in close succession. Given Doom of the Tyrant, going to civilization doesn't ameliorate the risk of that at all.

And that is not a plan. You are just listing shit we can do. Depending on what Civ we encounter, none of that might even matter. Conversely, we can always rely on having stuff to kill.

Now, Hunger benefits for battles the most, and rando monsters are easiest and most morally acceptable targets. However, we didn't pick murder blender option(which was a thing we offered and which we explicitly turned down), we choose hybrid option that put a ton of shit into social - which Civ makes use of and which Hunt makes absolutely no use of. Not picking murder blender option and then trying to murder blender anyway is just pointless, which is why we were getting fucked last few updates and why we had to buy bunch of inefficient options just to survive. Additionally:
Again, we were in that situation because we made several risky decisions in a row. Power would have made those decisions less risky, but we don't actually need power to avoid being put in the same situation. It's a false equivalence.

Scent was, again, something that was offered and that we turned down. You turned down both combat build and tracking power, and still want to do gameplay that those wanted to do anyway?

Hunt is a shit option because it does things our build doesn't excel at. We can go and kill monsters. And we will have to bleed Arete along the way because that's simply not a thing we are good at. We refused to pick El Stats. We refused to pick Scent. We refused to pick Force Unto. You can't refuse to pick all the choices that enable certain gameplay then pick that gameplay anyway. That just doesn't work.
Again, the biggest asset we actually have is our Progression. You can't say that the option that makes uses of it the most doesn't actually play to our strengths.

We picked all those votes in a completely different context as to now, unless you foresaw facing an enemy that threatens to outscale us in the short term. That doesn't make does options a mistake, it just means we didn't have enough context. Now that we do, we can prioritize gaining strength, something Hunt does the most reliably.
 
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The fact that we made bad build choices afterward doesn't change the fact that one of our strongest advantages, Hunger, explicitly privileges power gain through battle, and heavily nerfs experience from all other sources severely. And it also doesn't change that we took the curse of the Tyrant, which means we will explode as soon as anyone attempts to enforce some sort of rule upon us, and that we have no way to fix that at the moment.
 
Tl'dr Hunt is a shit option don't pick it
You are contradicting the QM. Again.

Just accept that the way this world works means we will, even without Scent, run into lots of monsters anyway. Because that's just how these things go. Hell, we can probably buy scent next pick, even.

Well, now it's between the "stupid-risky" option and the "gets us very little" option.
 
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Hunt isn't a bad option, and honestly I want to read more giant monster fights. It would be more controlled if we had scent because then we could probably search for specific things we want, but even without scent it's a good choice.
I mean, if "we are no good at it given our build" and "we have tried that and almost ended up rolling for survive" are not good enough arguments to make people to reconsider Hunt, nothing really will. If people believe in "me see high reward me pick" there is not much I can do to stop them.
We put like two choices into social options, both of which were at least equally relevant to combat. To say we've put a "ton of shit" into social is just counterfactual.
We put two most relevant power votes in social, yes.
You turned down the Tyrant Mitigation and ally empowerment and want to do social gameplay or high risk taking anyway? No option is maximally efficient with all of the choices we've made so far, that's just the nature of questing. To say that this inefficiency makes an option irredeemably bad while entirely ignoring the existence of other inefficiencies is kinda silly, y'know?
Decimator Mitigation was picked especially with having to rule in mind. The other was Apocrypha.

Needless to say, Curse Mitigation is nowhere nearly as relevant to focus of our build as two most build defining votes we had so far(so first power vote and 7AP expenditure).
And that is not a plan. You are just listing shit we can do. Depending on what Civ we encounter, none of that might even matter. Conversely, we can always rely on having stuff to kill.
I'm sorry, list of steps we need to take to reach the goal is not a plan? What?

But, by all means, do show the thread how an actual plan looks like. We'll wait.
Hunger, explicitly privileges power gain through battle,
a) We have other ways to advance, most notably Arete
b) Hunger advances through any "real effort" not just combat
c) There is nothing stopping you from fighting when we are in Civ, either against armies or monsters
d) Your advancement doesn't matter if you are just spending it to survive wounds gained in process rather than building yourself up in organized manner
You are contradicting the QM. Again.

Just accept that the way this world works means we will, even without Scent, run into lots of monsters anyway. Because that's just how these things go. Hell, we can probably buy scent next pick, even.
Or we could not double down on doing another build after we committed to ours, and actually use our current resources to the fullest to gain the most out of Voyaging Realm, allowing us to be as efficient as possible once we need to integrate in galactic society?
 
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Wow, Make for Civ has made a real comeback! Very interesting. Given argument and omake power it's probably above Temple now.

One thing you guys may want to consider is the shape of your future advancement. Philosopher's Wreath and Stranglethorn are both examples of options you want to acquire as soon as possible. Stranglethorn makes future Rank advancements more powerful and Establishment needs time to work, while Philosopher's Wreath obviously benefits from prep time in advancing both your and Gisena's magic systems.

Of the two, Wreath offers more versatility (you can take Sorcery immediately for a notable power-up, and long-term Gisena can develop lots more capabilities, or you can just let Gisena develop while you hunt for a system that suits you), while Stranglethorn offers more raw power. Their risk profile is different as well - killing a monster capable of granting the Stranglethorn would be an epically dangerous task, while Wreath is much more approachable but costs Arete.
 
Or we could not double down on doing another build after we committed to ours, and actually use our current resources to the fullest to gain the most out of Voyaging Realm, allowing us to be as efficient as possible once we need to integrate in galactic society?
So... exactly what you aren't doing?

Sure, hunt doesn't use our charisma. But we've been building specifically for it. It's how our entire decimator mitigation strategy works at this point in time. Are you intentionally ignoring that or what?
 
I'm sorry, list of steps we need to take to reach the goal is not a plan? What?

But, by all means, do show the thread how an actual plan looks like. We'll wait.
You were not listing a list of step, Wolfy. "Use Charisma, use Gisena, use Letrizia" is not a plan. I could as easily say we use Rank to Hunt, use the fish meat as bait, use the meat of what we kill as more bait, etc. They are certainly things that enhance the option, but plans they are not.

Also fuck, build votes are not Geasa put on questers. We can prioritize different things based of different situations; indeed, we must do that to survive. Right now, we must prioritize becoming more powerful, and hunt as a higher chance of that than Civ.
 
[X] Temple of the False Moon
[X] +1 pick
during next Experience spend

Go hard or go home. This way we can get an FB pick when shit inevitably goes sideways in the temple, but it's a limited time opportunity with extreme rewards. So of course I want to poke the mystery dungeon with a stick and see what bites. Better to pick a fight than have the Apocryphal Curse pick one for us.
 
While I utterly love Philosopher's Wreath, Stranglethorn has two massive advantages. One, it really really helps with our primary objective for the next few millennia, conquering the Human Sphere. Two, it has super high synergy with our chosen 25-pointer, Once and Future.

For those reasons, I think Stranglethorn is the best thing we could possibly get, even if it's dangerous to fight something strong enough to produce it.
 
[X] Temple of the False Moon
[X] +1 pick
during next Experience spend

Go hard or go home. This way we can get an FB pick when shit inevitably goes sideways in the temple, but it's a limited time opportunity with extreme rewards. So of course I want to poke the mystery dungeon with a stick and see what bites. Better to pick a fight than have the Apocryphal Curse pick one for us.
Why are you assuming it is not going to do both? You cannot defeat the apocryphal curse by making things interesting yourself. It takes that as a challenge.

While I utterly love Philosopher's Wreath, Stranglethorn has two massive advantages. One, it really really helps with our primary objective for the next few millennia, conquering the Human Sphere. Two, it has super high synergy with our chosen 25-pointer, Once and Future.

For those reasons, I think Stranglethorn is the best thing we could possibly get, even if it's dangerous to fight something strong enough to produce it.
Of course it is. It's also probably beyond us to get something worth 4 picks, even with the +1 pick option.
 
So... exactly what you aren't doing?

Sure, hunt doesn't use our charisma. But we've been building specifically for it. It's how our entire decimator mitigation strategy works at this point in time. Are you intentionally ignoring that or what?
Despite what people like to think, "y-you too" is not a clever argument.

Hunt is not looking out for getting Sated target; you will notice that no one makes that argument and that's for reason. It seeks to maximize our growth through Hunger procs, not grab Sated. Meanwhile, Civ quite explicitly use our current Hunger mitigation:
[ ] Make For Civilization - Your Rank having been augmented by recent efforts, you can navigate the Voyaging Realm nearly as well as Verschlengorge himself. Though the Tyrant's Doom afflicts you still, at least your Decimation is absent. Morally it's a good idea to take care of any civilized business in this window. Logistically, civilization confers the power of multitudes to solve your problems. Perhaps there are new magics you could acquire, items of power to equip Gisena and Letrizia with (your arsenal being full), even supplies to repair the Armament?
Though the Tyrant's Doom afflicts you still, at least your Decimation is absent.
So yeah, that's thing.
You were not listing a list of step
Indeed, that list of steps I've listed was not a list of steps.

I'm noticing that you have yet to put forward any actual plan. Could it be that you don't have any?
 
Hunt is not looking out for getting Sated target; you will notice that no one makes that argument and that's for reason. It seeks to maximize our growth, not grab Sated. Meanwhile, Civ quite explicitly use our Hunger mitigation:
That is not what I said in any sense. I said we already are committed to a build to look for worthy targets. Which is exactly what hunt is, but less specific. It was a counterargument to your counterfactual insistence that our build doesn't support hunt.

I'm noticing that you have yet to put forward any actual plan. Could it be that you don't have any?
More information is needed to plan. The problem is that plans are much more important for the temple or civ votes than for hunting. Hunting can be automated by using Hunger's rank and skill.
 
Why are you assuming it is not going to do both? You cannot defeat the apocryphal curse by making things interesting yourself. It takes that as a challenge.
Because two weeks of Apocryphal mitigation was listed as a Temple bonus?

Also I just wanna know what's inside, isn't anybody else curious? We never did the Tomb of the Netherine (sp?) last quest and unopened mystery boxes bug the shit out of me. I'm a completionist, sue me.
 
Because two weeks of Apocryphal mitigation was listed as a Temple bonus?

Also I just wanna know what's inside, isn't anybody else curious? We never did the Tomb of the Netherine (sp?) last quest and unopened mystery boxes bug the shit out of me. I'm a completionist, sue me.
You can't really be a completionist. It's impossible to do everything. If we go to the temple we don't meet the local civilizations, nor do we find out what monsters exist around. The temple does not complete any more than either of the other picks.
 
While I utterly love Philosopher's Wreath, Stranglethorn has two massive advantages. One, it really really helps with our primary objective for the next few millennia, conquering the Human Sphere. Two, it has super high synergy with our chosen 25-pointer, Once and Future.

Stranglethorn does have excellent synergy with Once and Future, though it doesn't affect Once and Future itself (as the +1 bonus is applied externally). Still, the 20% Rank growth bonus is amazing regardless.

I wouldn't say Establishment helps so much with conquering the Human Sphere as it does ruling it, though the +Rank and Might buffs certainly do help with conquest. The Agi penalty could be an issue if you choose to pilot, especially if you have a maneuver focused style. But that can be compensated for by taking more Echoes or +Rank.

Of course it is. It's also probably beyond us to get something worth 4 picks, even with the +1 pick option.

Mm, a 3-pick enemy isn't that hard to handle, you could probably do so with acceptable levels of risk if you went in prepared. A 3-pick enemy that would actually yield Stranglethorn as an option is the real problem, as most enemies that could do that are 4-pick innately.

Hunt is not looking out for getting Sated target; you will notice that no one makes that argument and that's for reason. It seeks to maximize our growth through Hunger procs, not grab Sated. Meanwhile, Civ quite explicitly use our current Hunger mitigation:

Yup! Though Veschlengorge is presumably still draining the populace...
 
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Tactical vote switch! I continue to believe the temple is excessively risky.
[X] Make For Civilization
[X] +1 pick during next Experience spend
 
You can't really be a completionist. It's impossible to do everything. If we go to the temple we don't meet the local civilizations, nor do we find out what monsters exist around. The temple does not complete any more than either of the other picks.
Yeah, but we don't know what civs/monsters we'll encounter whereas the temple's right there in front of us and it's now or never. I acknowledge that this isn't like, a particularly rational preference or anything? I just want to see a damned cool dungeon. The message goes back a few updates, seems like Rihaku's had it in mind for a while, we need to scale hard anyway. Why not frontload the risks? Also it's free Arete.
 
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