A Simple Transaction I

Redshirt Army · Dec 20, 2020

Aabcehmu said:
We don't actually know what it's going to be, IIRC?

Yep, which is why I'm guessing.

Hmm, Evanescence?

Aabcehmu · Dec 20, 2020

IIRC one of the ones that seemed fairly in-theme was Aventurescence.

BrainInAJar · Dec 20, 2020

Zampano said:
Would you pay 3P9A for Pearlescence?

And I think Lunar Coronet would be 2P9A.

Given our plan to tour the Human Realm and bait (?) Armament fights, I think it'll be a tough sell to invest in nation-scale building projects like Lunar Coronet. Thread wants to hit robots with our sword. Pearlescence is an easier sell tbh, but it's been crippled by revealing the blurb in an early episode before the power creep really set in

Pearlecence and Lunar Coronet would cost the same actually. And I would buy Lunar Coronet for 40% All Stats and basically permanent 100% All Stats to our Companions due to the merging of Bloodbuffing and Edeldrosss boosting; it's a benefit that's going to pay itself back through Grace and Sign research boosts, so I think it would be very worth it.

Pearlecence depends on what exactly is meant by "scales with the user"; whether it just counts the "virtual exp" that goes into determining picks or, with any luck, our overall power level, or if it works in another way we are not privy to. Nonetheless, it could very well be worth it, especially since Iridescence already makes the Evening Sky's protection apply to magic resistance. I do think it could be a great pick up, depending.

Lealope · Dec 20, 2020

Pearlesence would be pretty good if we had any kind of Protection based stat converter. It's neat even without that but unless we run into an anti-ruin enemy (which is very possible!) it just doesn't have that much luster compared to some of the alternatives.I think we kinda just have to wait for a Pillars run where we've got an awkward amount of Arete such that we don't mind dumping it in Exalted Spirit and Iridescence. Maybe once the multiplier ends.

Prose_Piranha · Dec 20, 2020

Hey, new reader here. Still working my way through the backlog on Reader mode but I have two questions:

1) What's the discord link? Even the one on the most recent threadmark seems to have expired.
2) Way back in A Fire Woken (Post#29,561), Sovereignty won the vote which seems to be a mix of Reckoner and Silver of Evening. I can find the Silver of Evening easily but as the Reckoner is also Hunger's pseudonym it's hard to find a reference to any pick that held the same time. Does anyone remember or can find what that's referencing or am I reading the post wrong. Is that a choice that only granted a Rank increase and Silver was gained sometime before that.

RedV · Dec 21, 2020

Prose_Piranha said:
2) Way back in A Fire Woken (Post#29,561), Sovereignty won the vote which seems to be a mix of Reckoner and Silver of Evening. I can find the Silver of Evening easily but as the Reckoner is also Hunger's pseudonym it's hard to find a reference to any pick that held the same time. Does anyone remember or can find what that's referencing or am I reading the post wrong. Is that a choice that only granted a Rank increase and Silver was gained sometime before that.

It's a combo build that spent Arete on Silver and the feat. Feats are one off purchases which seem to be available after Hunger does something important and give direct rank bonus. Since that was a one-off we probably didn't get any blurbs.

Prose_Piranha · Dec 21, 2020

RedV said:
It's a combo build that spent Arete on Silver and the feat. Feats are one off purchases which seem to be available after Hunger does something important and give direct rank bonus. Since that was a one-off we probably didn't get any blurbs.

Gotcha. From context I should have gotten that but I've been binging this story for the past few days so my brain is a little fried.

Talace · Dec 21, 2020

Aabcehmu said:
IIRC one of the ones that seemed fairly in-theme was Aventurescence.

We've also got Adularescence and Labradorescence as possibilities

Prose_Piranha said:
1) What's the discord link? Even the one on the most recent threadmark seems to have expired.

This should work.

Wolfy · Dec 21, 2020

Zampano said:
Would you pay 3P9A for Pearlescence?

And I think Lunar Coronet would be 2P9A.

Given our plan to tour the Human Realm and bait (?) Armament fights, I think it'll be a tough sell to invest in nation-scale building projects like Lunar Coronet. Thread wants to hit robots with our sword. Pearlescence is an easier sell tbh, but it's been crippled by revealing the blurb in an early episode before the power creep really set in

Lunar Coronet gives us All Stats and improves Elementalism of our allies massively(we know that it would give Letrizia +1 Rank and then there is always Aobaru). It is very good.

Pittauro · Dec 21, 2020

Rihaku said:
The Marshal slain, Hunger pressed his blade against the dull blue surface of the Inner Ring itself. The substance of the barrier was heavy but ductile, like hyperdense rubber, and resisted the force of his cut, even regrowing parts sheared away. With one leg he anchored himself against the dome and began to saw away in earnest, the blue of his blade-edge and the power of Ruin slowly eroding its resistance.

Where the unveiled Inner Ring met the outside world, a howling torrent of air rushed free, heat and fury as to hurl a normal man from the opening entirely.

With his superhuman constitution Hunger was barely bothered. It did not appear to be a specific defense mechanism, merely the property of some disequilibrium between the Inner and Middle Rings.

pretty sturdy barrier, it didn't immediately give to cut and ruin.

Rihaku said:
At last a man-sized passage was carved open, and he quickly leapt through, the wound in the barrier sealing shut behind him. Inside it was day, the sky within nearly the opposite of the star-shrouded night he had walked in under. Hunger blinked away the glare of their false sun and took in his surroundings. This was a vast and orderly space, countless rows of precision-crafted towers marching to the horizon, their walls inset with runes, interiors aglow with faint blue light. Shops and residences, offices and farms, all were contained within the neatly-arranged structure of this city-spanning grid.

...so mundane! It's just a normal country after all, at least in its appearance.

Rihaku said:
He took off, moving at a pace invisible to the human eye, headed directly for the Temple's center. The power of his Ring had absorbed some measure of the old marshal's fearsome grit, amplifying the force of Hunger's presence alongside the power of his form. The bow-wave of his commands left the common citizens thunderstruck, helpless but to answer his questions despite the obvious intent.

It became clear that the Immortals maintained at least a half-strength guard of the "Treasure" at all times. If they were each substantially above the Marshal he'd slain, then a direct assault would be unfeasible. However, Inner Ring society as a whole was in disarray following the Call's cessation - star-forges across the Temple had to be re-calibrated by a small army of engineers, while investigators dashed frantically about, futily attempting to ascertain the cause behind their "Treasure's" drastic shift in attitude. As for the military forces the Inner Temple, who were divided unequally among the Noble Houses, many were halfway to each other's throats among the chaos and uncertainty. It was every House for itself until the dust settled, but Hunger's arrival presaged a storm.

Poor common citizens. I mean, what would OUR reaction be if we were to meet this level of supernatural charisma? We're far beyond normal humans by now, in any sense.

Actually in retrospect I'm surprised Letrizia can still deal with us. I suppose she's both a bit used to it, and exceptional on her own merits.

Also I might have underestimated the chaos from the Ring's last hurrah.

Rihaku said:
He moved to harvest what power he could from worthy opponents before he challenged the Immortals. Perhaps along the way he would find some allies of opportunity by exploiting the fault lines in their society; surely there were factions disgruntled by the absolute rule of the current leadership?

there ALWAYS are. it's just a matter of "are they organized" and "do they have anything to offer"?

Rihaku said:
Ideally he could defeat the Immortals in detail while half were still scattered, then bait the Ring's remaining guardians into splitting their forces before he executed the decisive strike. Gisena's presence would be critical in suppressing the presumably mighty Soul Evocations of the Immortals themselves, so he had several hours still to ply his deadly trade.

Gisena is truly an incredible anti-mage support. I'm still annoyed we didn't give her reneissance woman though

Rihaku said:
The Houses of the Nobility were obvious to the naked eye, each an artistic masterpiece, frequently of towering scale, their grandeur unbound by the strict orderly lines that contained the common folk. Opulent gardens, personal lakes, or even snow-dusted cliffs surrounded their sprawling estates, within which sheltered mighty families with Marshals and High Marshals in their collective employ. Presented with such obvious targets, Hunger could not help but feast. Before he attacked he offered his terms: submit to his dominion and accept the Imprisoned Ring's departure, or be destroyed.

To his surprise, a few marginalized Houses - including one of substantial influence - actually agreed to raise the banner of rebellion alongside him. The others he put to the sword; surrendering civilians spared and remanded to the custody of his allies. Things went swimmingly, Hunger himself constantly one step ahead of the Inner Temple's Marshals; he reaped a healthy bounty from House security forces and counter-ambushed the Marshals when he was finished. Unfortunately the Immortals had some swifter form of communication and withdrew quickly from the outlying estates, concentrated within the Innermost Temple where they could not be picked off piecemeal.

eh, there will always be opportunists, idealists, and/or cowards.

You know, all things considered I'm surprised that in such a society buying more lifespan isn't allowed. Or maybe it is, after all we only have a few documents' words about it. For all we know the lottery here has a lifespan prize, or you can get bonus years as reward for important services to the government..

Rihaku said:
Larissa Alynne was by far the most influential of the nobles that now sheltered under his banner; her House was primarily motivated by their hatred of the current ruling faction, but she herself had taken to the cause with nearly unseemly valor.

..the cause.

yeah, sure. Is that how they call it nowadays?

Rihaku said:
Among mortals she might have been considered beautiful, with rich black locks framing a heart-shaped face, but even her striking eyes of emerald green seemed utterly pedestrian compared to Gisena's own. Longtime exposure to the Sorceress' superhuman beauty had utterly inured him against the mundane.

Undeterred, Larissa pressed against him as they surveyed a map of the situation, her eyes wide and doting.

I can't wait to see her reaction once she meets Gisena and realizes just how outmatched she is

Rihaku said:
Hunger grimaced. This particular noblewoman had been won over by his superhuman presence; her assistance was invaluable, but her advances unfortunate. It gave him no pleasure to take advantage of an unrequited infatuation for logistical aid, especially when he'd lectured Letrizia for similar acts in the Sovereignty. Still, the lives of over nine million relative innocents were on the line. He knew well that the the Imprisoned Ring cared not one whit for the welfare of its torturers, but Hunger the man could hardly allow those merely born into this society to die preventable deaths.

"When I remove the Ring, the Dimensional Rift that contains the Inner Temple will destabilize," he said gruffly, detaching his arm from Larissa's grasp. "Before that happens, your forces need to evacuate as many of the civilians as is practical. We have a few hours still before my allies get here. That should be more than enough time for your mightier Soul Evokers to open the way. Organize a steady but efficient evacuation leveraging the superhuman abilities of your troops, and we should be able to extract the vast majority of non-combatants before hostilities begin."

Honestly, just how many lives is a ring's wellbeing worth?

No, I mean, seriously. Not all lives are equal, and a Ring is not a person.. but is there a possible equivalence?

Ignoring that, it's nice that Hunger is at least trying to reduce casualties. It doesn't justify what he's doing, but if he also stays around to ennoble the people (and maybe grant permanent blood buffs if he can, though I think they're technically the same thing) before going away on balance it's not actually that bad. Long term it might actually be better. After all the Temple had a cap on their pop, they won't have one once Hunger does his thing.

With chaos, opportunities. It will be interesting to see what state will this society be in once we leave it.

Rihaku said:
"Of course, dear, it's well within the power of my House," Larissa said, batting her eyelashes at him. "But I'm more concerned for your personal safety! Those tedious Immortals could gang up on you while my personal Marshals are deployed afield."

"Unlikely," he shook his head. "They don't have a good grasp of my capabilities and overall power, knowing only that I've slain every foe presented so far. If they move out in force, it's possible I could evade their net and strike at the Ring directly. Thus they must maintain the majority of their strength at the Ring itself. From what you've told me, many of the Immortals dislike one another. None will be eager to volunteer for an expeditionary force against an enemy of unknown strength - not while their rivals stay behind in relative safety.."

Also you underestimate our powers!

Rihaku said:
"Hm..." Larissa pursed her lips. "You truly are a masterful strategist, my lord. Now more than ever I believe our victory is inevitable! If you'd like to draw out a fraction of their forces, however, I have a suggestion. You'd do well to strike at what they care most."

She laid a ruby-painted fingernail against one spot on the map. "House Verachen. Home to the extended families of two Immortals. There's not enough space in the Innermost Temple for their clans to accompany them. We could seize their precious grandchildren and great-grandchildren and hold them hostage to provoke a response."

He closed his eyes. On the one hand, emotional anguish of this magnitude was trivial compared to the aeons-long hollowing that the Imprisoned Ring had been subjected to. Were it absolutely necessary, perhaps he might consider a bluff in that vein, but to actually carry out such a sentence was abhorrent. The Tyrant at times had forced him into such compromises, but the power of Progression had allowed him to rise above measures like that.

There were those who said that power corrupted. They were not wrong, but the obverse face of that saying simply went unobserved: sufficient power, impunity, could also prevent corruption. Strength enough not to rely on unsavory means was the freedom to do 'that which feels right' instead of always 'that which was optimal.'

So, basically, become powerful enough that you don't NEED to resort to corrupt and unsavory means? I suppose that fits Hunger pretty well actually.

While the suggestion was distasteful, I won't begrudge her for it. All possibilities should ALWAYS be considered in war. Sometimes they're necessary, sometime we can afford NOT to resort to them, like this time.

Rihaku said:
"That won't be necessary," he finally replied. "We'll take the Inner Ring in its entirely and encircle them conventionally. If they try to break out, the forces guarding the Ring will be depleted. Continue the evacuation. Once my companions arrive, we'll mount a direct assault with the entirety of your forces as well as all our allied Houses."

"As you wish, my lord," Larissa demurred, lowering her eyes. "Your heart is truly too noble for such tactics. I feel embarrassed even to have suggested them; it was a slight against your power. Forgive me my overzealous support. I wish only for you to prevail, regardless of the cost!"

...Damn, I'm actually a bit sorry for her. Gisena wil crush her spirit so bad!

Rihaku said:
Hunger cleared his throat. "Fine. Keep in mind that I won't countenance such means going forward. How goes the diplomatic front? Have our overtures to the reluctant Houses landed at all?"

"Very much so, my lord!" Larissa said happily. "You needn't worry, I'll keep those foul harridans and dirty old men far from your august presence. After witnessing your power, more and more are beginning to fall in line. They understand that times are changing and that the nobility must change with them. At this point only the Core Houses are still recalcitrant. We're unlikely break them until the Immortals fall. Worry not, our allied forces will be more than sufficient the evacuate the great majority of the Inner Ring before sundown - or sunrise, I suppose, in the world Outside. I'm ever so excited to witness it with you!"

"Survival is one matter. But those who would accompany me must earn their place."

"Oh, of course! House Alynne will do its utmost to be deserving of that honor!"

---

so, so sorry for her. She REALLY thinks she has a chance!

Rihaku said:
[X] Larissa + Weapon-Defeating Stance has won.

With Alynne's assistance, civilians should be mostly evacuated by the time Gisena arrives. In that event, what will be the offensive strategy?

wait, WEAPON defeating? I'm a bit surprised there.

Also, shouldn't there be one more pick? where did it go?

eh, It will probably be mentioned later, or I'll go back and find it in a previous post.

Rihaku said:
[ ] Scorched Earth - The Ultimate Emanation of a High Sorceress represents a power of Nullity far beyond even what Gisena demonstrated against the Groundskeeper. By shrouding himself in a comprehensive shell of Edeldross, Hunger can retain the majority of his powers in the wake of such an attack, though the Evening Sky will likely be fully depleted as well. Still, his enemies will likely be in no state to resist him for a few crucial instants, allowing him to cut down a substantial fraction of their number while they are relegated to mortality. Whether it will be enough to rescue the Ring is another matter. [+1 Arete]

*A highly effective strategy; all you need to do is get Gisena safely into position while Hunger is shielded, Aeira can very much assist with the former.
*There may be Immortals with non-supernatural speed and strength, though it seems unlikely that such would be remotely capable of matching Hunger's magical augmentations.
*Of greater concern is those Immortals who might possess some level of defense against the Nullity itself, though they will likely experience at least a partial severing of their capabilities given Gisena's new power.
*Knocks Gisena unconscious and weakens her for several days following. Could be risky in the medium-term with the Apocryphal Curse spinning up again.
*Accelerates the rate of dimensional collapse. May further weaken the Imprisoned Ring, setting back the potential benefits it can grant its Ringbearer.

Admittedly effective,but the last two lines make me reluctant to actually take it. We ARE very close to Apocryphal's return, the ring is our big reward (Our precious), and we ARE trying to minimize casualties..

Rihaku said:
[ ] Full Frontal - A conventional frontal attack with Hunger, Gisena, and the allied forces. A challenging fight to be certain, though a clean victory here means an uncomplicated aftermath with a liberated Ring. Hunger will focus their combined efforts on the weakest Immortal first and try to slay his way up the ladder, while allied forces attempt to distract the Immortals and prevent them from bringing their combined might to bear against Hunger himself. Given that they are encircled and pinned to the Ring's location, this is more practical than it would usually be; even a Marshal can seize a wholly unguarded Ring. [+1 pick]

*A decently effective strategy, though with lower win% than Scorched Earth
*Even if defeated, death is not always the outcome. Retreat is possible given your control of the territory.
*Face your enemies head-on and overcome them with the sheer might of your Cut and the broken power of Nullity.
*If successful, prepares you well for the Apocryphal Curse.

Sadly we already have 2 stances, so there's no point in taking a third one.. well, not much of one at least. We CAN trade one stance for another, possibly choosing the most suited to each situation, but it's still far from being an optimal arete expenditure.

I think I favour it over Schorched Earth though, seeing what the costs and risks associated to that one are.

Rihaku said:
[ ] A Thousand Cuts - A Ring of Power is nigh-indestructible. All the infrastructure around it, and its guardians themselves - not so. Bleed them by darting into range, hurling a full-strength blade wind into the Innermost Temple, then swiftly darting out of range. From your intelligence reports, the number of Immortals capable of countering this strategy can be numbered on the fingers of a single hand, whereas you can attack from any angle. Slowly whittle down their fortifications while consolidating power in the meantime. You'll have plenty of downtime to work on developing additional psuedo-Graces to increase your power, and if they actually sally then their forces will be divided and can be defeated piecemeal. [-2 Arete]

*Very high native chance of success, but...
*Very slow. May verge into Apocryphal Curse reactivation territory, which can complicate matters.
*Arete penalty for taking unnecessarily long to rescue the Imprisoned Ring
*May get the chance to develop a psuedo-Grace or work on Praxis in downtime.
*Slow pace means all civilians can be evacuated without fuss, though food supplies and general discontent may become an issue.
*Possibility of forcing the enemies to surrender, allowing for a diplomatic solution.

mh.. risky and time consuming, but it might work. the arete price is acceptable, and if the Immortals see they're completely outmatched we DO have a chance of forcing a surrender, especially if we explain our ennobling plan.

Not sure which I prefer of the two, but I'd avoid Gisena limit break.

643 words

Sara · Dec 21, 2020

Wolfy said:
Lunar Coronet gives us All Stats and improves Elementalism of our allies massively(we know that it would give Letrizia +1 Rank and then there is always Aobaru). It is very good.

Yeah, had Fallen Star not been part of Sharkey's wish I probably would have gone for rounding out our build this vote.

Sharkey_smt · Dec 21, 2020

Sara said:
Yeah, had Fallen Star not been part of Sharkey's wish I probably would have gone for rounding out our build this vote.

...it was not. The wish was only for RoB.

Wolfy · Dec 21, 2020

With recent changes and purchases, I decided to go back and have a look on EFB tier list.

In short:

S: Sword in the Stone, Once and Future II
A: Super Juggernaut Undead Chimera, Ruling Ring
B: Elixir, King's Companions, Refinement of Purpose
C: Imperial Praxis, Heaven's Tomb, Refinement of Battle
D: Outer Darkness, Cold Light of Vengeance
E: Dead But Dreaming

Man, a lot has changed, huh? Acquisition of (doubled) RoB and Companions changed our build by a decent bit, and we have newcomers in Exalted Battle Array and November Sky. With all said and done, I guess new tierlist would be something like:

S: Super Juggernaut Undead Chimera, Ruling Ring
A: Exalted Battle Array, Once and Future II
B: Elixir, Refinement of Purpose, Sword in the Stone
C: Outer Darkness, November Sky, Essence Ring
D: Heaven's Tomb, Cold Light of Vengeance, Imperial Praxis
E: Dead But Dreaming

S Rank

SJUC: Man, this EFB just keeps of growing in power. It works amazingly well with Companions, it benefits a lot from Rank % we got and it provides us +150% Str for our Ruin. Great value all around. The only reason not to get this is because we want to benefit from Rank gain more before actually getting it. It also gives us precious DA spots
Ruling Ring: You know it, you love it. There a lot of people who want this, and its just pretty good. We'd love improved Pressure, and combination of Progression++ and Pills means a ton of Might for our Ruin

A Rank

EBA: EBA is just so cool. It does a lot of powerful things - giving us a lot of precious Artifact slots and allowing us ability to collect Armaments and fuse them. We likely want to get this at some point, even if 3 pick makes it somewhat risky
OaF II: Coming down from S tier, mostly because I'm not sure if we want to pick this over stuff that is much more reliable. Well, I'm sure we won't hate it if we get it

B Rank

Elixir: Still gives Apo mitigation so it's good. More importantly, we have seen how good Gisena is at researching Graces, which means there is a lot of potential for Elixir there. And since we are already planning on supporting her, might as well get few strong graces for ourselves. Who knows how much Attack Speed lies here? Memes aside, I've actually strongly considered to swap this and EBA
Refinement of Purpose: It's pretty decent, actually. Getting RoP would double our immediate Ruin power, so we should strongly consider getting it. Besides, +100 Agi is hard to say no to
SitS: Talk about fall from the grace. While SitS is still crazy good, we did turn it down like four times by now, so there is clearly little appetite for it. I suppose people don't find its activation reliable enough.

C Rank

November Sky: It's fine I suppose. It is very unexciting, but it does directly slow our Agi issues and Mental Stability is always nice. Stats are good too. I don't actually see us picking this one up, but it is pretty decent
Essence Ring: Man. While Essence Ring is very strong, it's also hilariously expensive, both in Arete and in picks. Getting it would require some effort, and it is mostly potential rather than power, making it's acquisition even more difficult. Still an amazing pick that works incredibly well with our build
Outer Darkness: Up from D, as +150% Might is much more relevant now that Ruin is not useless, and our allies would become even more relevant with shared defense

D Rank

Heaven's Tomb: Down from C, as Prot is generally weaker now that Str is doing same thing better. Inventory utility is still there, however
Cold Light of Vengeance: It's still there
Imperial Praxis: It exists

E Rank

Dead But Dreaming: Still the worst EFB

So, whats your opinion? What EFBs would you rate higher or lower? Which ones do you want to get? Remember to use same 2/2/3/3/3/1 profile, so if you rate something higher you gotta rate something lower too!

TooSlow · Dec 21, 2020

Wolfy said:
Heaven's Tomb: Down from C, as Prot is generally weaker now that Str is doing same thing better. Inventory utility is still there, however

We chose the Silver of Evening upgrade so we don't actually get Protection from it.

GenericName · Dec 21, 2020

Wolfy said:
With recent changes and purchases, I decided to go back and have a look on EFB tier list.

In short:

Man, a lot has changed, huh? Acquisition of (doubled) RoB and Companions changed our build by a decent bit, and we have newcomers in Exalted Battle Array and November Sky. With all said and done, I guess new tierlist would be something like:

S Rank

SJUC: Man, this EFB just keeps of growing in power. It works amazingly well with Companions, it benefits a lot from Rank % we got and it provides us +150% Str for our Ruin. Great value all around. The only reason not to get this is because we want to benefit from Rank gain more before actually getting it. It also gives us precious DA spots

Ruling Ring: You know it, you love it. There a lot of people who want this, and its just pretty good. We'd love improved Pressure, and combination of Progression++ and Pills means a ton of Might for our Ruin

A Rank

EBA: EBA is just so cool. It does a lot of powerful things - giving us a lot of precious Artifact slots and allowing us ability to collect Armaments and fuse them. We likely want to get this at some point, even if 3 pick makes it somewhat risky

OaF II: Coming down from S tier, mostly because I'm not sure if we want to pick this over stuff that is much more reliable. Well, I'm sure we won't hate it if we get it

B Rank

Elixir: Still gives Apo mitigation so it's good. More importantly, we have seen how good Gisena is at researching Graces, which means there is a lot of potential for Elixir there. And since we are already planning on supporting her, might as well get few strong graces for ourselves. Who knows how much Attack Speed lies here? Memes aside, I've actually strongly considered to swap this and EBA

Refinement of Purpose: It's pretty decent, actually. Getting RoP would double our immediate Ruin power, so we should strongly consider getting it. Besides, +100 Agi is hard to say no to

SitS: Talk about fall from the grace. While SitS is still crazy good, we did turn it down like four times by now, so there is clearly little appetite for it. I suppose people don't find its activation reliable enough.

C Rank

November Sky: It's fine I suppose. It is very unexciting, but it does directly slow our Agi issues and Mental Stability is always nice. Stats are good too. I don't actually see us picking this one up, but it is pretty decent

Essence Ring: Man. While Essence Ring is very strong, it's also hilariously expensive, both in Arete and in picks. Getting it would require some effort, and it is mostly potential rather than power, making it's acquisition even more difficult. Still an amazing pick that works incredibly well with our build

Outer Darkness: Up from D, as +150% Might is much more relevant now that Ruin is not useless, and our allies would become even more relevant with shared defense

D Rank

Heaven's Tomb: Down from C, as Prot is generally weaker now that Str is doing same thing better. Inventory utility is still there, however

Cold Light of Vengeance: It's still there

Imperial Praxis: It exists

E Rank

Dead But Dreaming: Still the worst EFB

So, whats your opinion? What EFBs would you rate higher or lower? Which ones do you want to get? Remember to use same 2/2/3/3/3/1 profile, so if you rate something higher you gotta rate something lower too!

EBA will now and forever be an S tier pick in my mind to the point where I would even put it over ruling ring. My salt levels at refusing it rise with every passing day, and if the day does come when this EFB is offered again I will pour every ounce of my effort into crusading for it.

Wolfy · Dec 21, 2020

Also, I want to shill for Refinement of Purpose for a bit. Remember, this is what it does:

Refinement of Purpose [1 + 7 Praxis picks]

The stars could yield, the sky could yield, the Walls could yield, the world could yield, but it was not within him to yield.

++++++++++++++++++++Willpower, +300% to the value of all Willpower +s. Praxis endurance now scales directly with Willpower if that would be better for the practitioner.

In Hunger's case, this increases his current Praxis endurance by half again, though note that this techniques with exponentiating costs, such as Artful Thorn, may not yield extra invocations.

Note that we also got a lot of Willpower from Oath of Winter, making this even better. How much better? Well, right now, our current Willpower and physical stats look like this:

Strength: 55 (+210% value) = 170 + Will = 227
Constitution: 51 (+210% value) = 158 + Will = 215
Agility: 61 (+280% value) = 232 + Will = 289
Willpower: 22 (+160% value) = 57

Now, lets plug RoP Willpower into that equation, giving us +20 Willpower and +300% to the value:

Strength: 55 (+210% value) = 170 + Will = 405
Constitution: 51 (+210% value) = 158 + Will = 393
Agility: 61 (+280% value) = 232 + Will = 467
Willpower: 42 (+460% value) = 235

As you can see, our total Agi is slightly more than doubled, our Str is increased by almost +150% and Con is increased even more than that. That's a lot of stats and a lot of power. Slightly less as we are about to get a couple of Echoes and doesn't take Companions in account, but still extremely major increase in our speed and Ruin.

What this means is that Refinement of Purpose has an unique value where it is extremely efficient if we get it during this month, but becomes progressively worse as we acquire more stats. Still, we should seriously consider getting it right now, as it gives us pretty sizable increase in power, and then we also get buffed Praxis casting pool and ~250 Willpower, which should hopefully have some practical use.

And sure, SJUC is still better in terms of pure power, but if we want to leave SJUC to marinate getting RoP instead of OaF II is a possibility.

Lealope · Dec 21, 2020

Rihaku said:
Another false positive. Its powers depleted, the corpse of this 'Antediluvian' Brujah was simply a body once more. Would he have to face Cain himself to procure what he sought? That would be an interesting contest, but one for another day.

Odyssial's splintered ascendancy had buried itself across the tapestry of All Creations, its far-flung scattering locked betwixt seals of fate and time. Yet even the Vampiric Master of Time had yielded no clues to its location. If the Shard was here, it was not in this moment; and for all the might of Ulyssian's divination, it did not suffice to challenge the highest wiles of his prior self.

Watch as it turns out that the Shard is actually distributed across all the Hunters in existence, acting as their source of power. Or better yet, in the hands of some gigamage like the Unnamed.

Wolfy · Dec 21, 2020

Alright, lets talk about Ruin. Now, we kinda talked about Ruin math and so on discord, and I think we have it fully figured out. First, lets copy stats from my previous post:
Current

Strength: 55 (+210% value) = 170 + Will = 227

Willpower: 22 (+160% value) = 57

RoP

Strength: 55 (+210% value) = 170 + Will = 405

Willpower: 42 (+460% value) = 235

We will need those for our math. Before we start, this is how Ruin is currently calculated - Str * RoB * Ruin. Those, in turn, are calculated like this:

Str: Base Str*Str Mod + Base Will+Will Mod
RoB: It's just RoB
Ruin: Ruin Mod(ADS)*Damage Amp(Winter's King)

You can see our current stats above. RoB is currently 14, while Ruin is currently 5*3.5 = 17.5. So, with that in mind our current Ruin would be:

227*14*17.5 = 55.6k

Note that we will get a couple more Echos right via Pillars farming. Now, let us see how this changes as we introduce various Advancements.

Base+RoP: This increases stats as per above - 405*14*17.5=99.2k - 78% increase
Base+Maw: Maw adds +200% to Ruin, increasing total multiplier to 24.5 - 227*14*24.5 = 77,8k - 40% increase
Base+SJUC: This increases our Str by additional 150%, bringing it to 310 - 310*14*17.5 = 76k - 37% increase
Base+Arisen Blood: This just doubles our Damage Amp, which doubles our Ruin - 227*14*30 - 95.3k - 71% increase
Base+RoB step: RoB grows by 6 per step, so after the first step, we'd have - 227*20*17.5 = 79.5k - 42% increase

This clearly shows value of various Advancements in terms of Ruin. Now, lets consider taking RoP, Maw, AB, SJUC and getting ROB step along the way:

Base+RoP+Maw+SJUC+AB+RoN - 488*20*42 = 410k - 740% increase

And there you have it folks. This is Ruin build - how it looks like, what Advancements it uses, how effective they are and so on. One thing we are missing is Threefold style stat boots, which would multiply everything else and bring our Ruin to 1 million. Then you add in RR, Pillars and some time and you slowly get to tens of millions of Ruin.

E: Also, we do have ISH boosts for all of this, but no one knows how those work so 🤷‍♀️

OctarineShrike · Dec 21, 2020

So. I had an insight for Haeliel Ordinalism Tutoring that takes Rihaku's CYOA into account. Ambitionwise it's risky. In terms of Wealth Creation Value...

Earth Ordinalism lets seems like it would let us make mundane Jade.

A Simple Transaction I Original

The Furthermost Reaches Somehow or another, you've ended up here. My sympathies. This is a place of great opportunity, especially for the formerly mundane, but all power comes at a price. There are Realms of embodied myth, whose winds are a sterling caress of vivacious joy, whose sunbeams...

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

By chance or by circumstance, you have inherited eight pieces of common Copper, three coins of mythic Platinum, and a single obol of priceless Jade.

The Gardens of Enoch: Terrascape Academy Original

A couple things - There are four types of activities possible with the Elements Form: 1. Brute Creation - Attacks and walls made of a generic form of the element, like iron or rock. You cannot really specify the form besides stuff like choosing soil or rock for Earth. The stuff is an arcane...

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

4 - True Creation - allows you to make specific substances within the purview of your element mediated by your Specialist Form rank and Reductions taken. The objects created are real.

Reduction imparts very substantial bonuses to Shaping and True Creation especially. You will not be able to make gemstones or Jade as a normal Elementalist until you buy more Ordinals or achieve a significantly higher Skill level than the Reducer did. If you are going for Nightmare or think it likely that Nightmare will win, it is possible that the 8th Ordinal will be the last you take in Elements. That is not to say that Elementalist is weak - Avatar characters get along fine with basically just Shaping - but if you want True Creation it is very risky to assume you will be able to do so profitably as an Elementalist that stops at Ordinal 8 with no Supreme bonus. There is a reason Elementalists typically pick up conjure.

The Gardens of Enoch: Terrascape Academy Original

To Rise Anew “What would you have of me?” Arthur asked, even as a new awareness slowly began to percolate through his body. It felt like his entire frame had been cast into sharp relief. He was waking from a dream, breaking the surface of the sea after a lifetime in its depths. Perhaps he was...

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

[ ] The Siege Dragon - Earth and Fire, a useful combination that allows for the control of liquids in the form of magma/lava. Subterranean movement, powerful offensive and defensive options, and the Vitalism synergies of the Earth element are all available. Access to the toughness of ceramics and jade makes Earth not inferior to Metal in terms of armor, and superior in terms of Vitalism. Plus, it suits Arthur's name.

If we can figure out how to make... "Mythic Jade"? "Non-Mundane Jade"? Unsure what a good term is for this at the moment, we'd have something huge to feed our cloak with.

Sara · Dec 21, 2020

Sharkey_smt said:
...it was not. The wish was only for RoB.

Wait, so we're not only able to pick up Flight from the praxis book and the Lyre we got and the RoB training were doing?

Oops. I guess I just assumed because their both Praxis techniques. <.< Well, atleast it's still a decent advancement.

HoratioVonBecker · Dec 21, 2020

Wolfy said:
With recent changes and purchases, I decided to go back and have a look on EFB tier list.

In short:

Man, a lot has changed, huh? Acquisition of (doubled) RoB and Companions changed our build by a decent bit, and we have newcomers in Exalted Battle Array and November Sky. With all said and done, I guess new tierlist would be something like:

S Rank

SJUC: Man, this EFB just keeps of growing in power. It works amazingly well with Companions, it benefits a lot from Rank % we got and it provides us +150% Str for our Ruin. Great value all around. The only reason not to get this is because we want to benefit from Rank gain more before actually getting it. It also gives us precious DA spots

Ruling Ring: You know it, you love it. There a lot of people who want this, and its just pretty good. We'd love improved Pressure, and combination of Progression++ and Pills means a ton of Might for our Ruin

A Rank

EBA: EBA is just so cool. It does a lot of powerful things - giving us a lot of precious Artifact slots and allowing us ability to collect Armaments and fuse them. We likely want to get this at some point, even if 3 pick makes it somewhat risky

OaF II: Coming down from S tier, mostly because I'm not sure if we want to pick this over stuff that is much more reliable. Well, I'm sure we won't hate it if we get it

B Rank

Elixir: Still gives Apo mitigation so it's good. More importantly, we have seen how good Gisena is at researching Graces, which means there is a lot of potential for Elixir there. And since we are already planning on supporting her, might as well get few strong graces for ourselves. Who knows how much Attack Speed lies here? Memes aside, I've actually strongly considered to swap this and EBA

Refinement of Purpose: It's pretty decent, actually. Getting RoP would double our immediate Ruin power, so we should strongly consider getting it. Besides, +100 Agi is hard to say no to

SitS: Talk about fall from the grace. While SitS is still crazy good, we did turn it down like four times by now, so there is clearly little appetite for it. I suppose people don't find its activation reliable enough.

C Rank

November Sky: It's fine I suppose. It is very unexciting, but it does directly slow our Agi issues and Mental Stability is always nice. Stats are good too. I don't actually see us picking this one up, but it is pretty decent

Essence Ring: Man. While Essence Ring is very strong, it's also hilariously expensive, both in Arete and in picks. Getting it would require some effort, and it is mostly potential rather than power, making it's acquisition even more difficult. Still an amazing pick that works incredibly well with our build

Outer Darkness: Up from D, as +150% Might is much more relevant now that Ruin is not useless, and our allies would become even more relevant with shared defense

D Rank

Heaven's Tomb: Down from C, as Prot is generally weaker now that Str is doing same thing better. Inventory utility is still there, however

Cold Light of Vengeance: It's still there

Imperial Praxis: It exists

E Rank

Dead But Dreaming: Still the worst EFB

So, whats your opinion? What EFBs would you rate higher or lower? Which ones do you want to get? Remember to use same 2/2/3/3/3/1 profile, so if you rate something higher you gotta rate something lower too!

I would guess Elixer has been combined with Total Eclipse, actually. Not sure how those work together - Gisena already has Total Eclipse, and Total Eclipse has been more-or-less tripled by absorbing the Opalescent Tower - but my suspicion is that some combination of the Opalescent Tower and the Silver Of Evening means Total Eclipse, Elixer, and a third, maybe star-themed, -dross are all granted by the same EFB.
I wouldn't mind getting Azure Moon at this point, by the way.

Tyrant_Rayne · Dec 21, 2020

Wolfy said:
So, whats your opinion? What EFBs would you rate higher or lower? Which ones do you want to get? Remember to use same 2/2/3/3/3/1 profile, so if you rate something higher you gotta rate something lower too!

Personally I'd switch EBA and elixir. EBA isn't bad, in fact it has a lot of value. The problem is that it has too much value. 3 more panoply slots is a lot of potential power... if we can properly use them. We can barely get the Arete for our current artifact advancements, adding 3 more would just dilute our limited Arete further. EBA would be better to get in the far future once we've exhausted most of the easy advancements of our current artifacts.

Elixir on the other hand has a lot of value that is relatively easy to obtain in comparison. Gisena can reliably create at least 2 major workings every month. Her creating Elixir alternatives for us should be relatively easy once she figures out how. Literally all we have to do to benefit from Elixir is sit back and relax, with maybe helping Gisena bit from time to time. Compared to our other ways of gaining power this is vastly more easy. Honestly I'm debating if this is even better than SJUC or RR.

ilbgar123 · Dec 21, 2020

Conjured Blade said:
So. I had an insight for Haeliel Ordinalism Tutoring that takes Rihaku's CYOA into account. Ambitionwise it's risky. In terms of Wealth Creation Value...

Earth Ordinalism lets seems like it would let us make mundane Jade.

A Simple Transaction I Original

The Furthermost Reaches Somehow or another, you've ended up here. My sympathies. This is a place of great opportunity, especially for the formerly mundane, but all power comes at a price. There are Realms of embodied myth, whose winds are a sterling caress of vivacious joy, whose sunbeams...

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

The Gardens of Enoch: Terrascape Academy Original

A couple things - There are four types of activities possible with the Elements Form: 1. Brute Creation - Attacks and walls made of a generic form of the element, like iron or rock. You cannot really specify the form besides stuff like choosing soil or rock for Earth. The stuff is an arcane...

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

The Gardens of Enoch: Terrascape Academy Original

To Rise Anew “What would you have of me?” Arthur asked, even as a new awareness slowly began to percolate through his body. It felt like his entire frame had been cast into sharp relief. He was waking from a dream, breaking the surface of the sea after a lifetime in its depths. Perhaps he was...

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

If we can figure out how to make... "Mythic Jade"? "Non-Mundane Jade"? Unsure what a good term is for this at the moment, we'd have something huge to feed our cloak with.

Gonna be honest, I don't actually know much about Ordinalism, so I'm not sure I'm qualified to comment on Hunger's affinity for the Cardinals. Which is why I'm going to ~~shill~~ pontificate on the potential of my Omakeverse's characters in that regard.

I suspect Gold Color Magic will help some, and my Omakeverse Party is due to hit 7 or so characters, so at least one of them ought to have Earth Magic of some kind, even if Flower is associated more with Ice and Darkness. Then again, Earth has associations with Fire, but also with Darkness, so it's not impossible to leverage an Earth Cardinal, I think. Ten Thousand should help with advancing it too, since if what I've pieced together is correct Ordinals are somewhere between Colors and Verses in terms of domains and advancement. Which is to say, advancing them is a mix of meditating on them and doing things that fall under their domains. Fortune advances best when you meditate on Fortune, but also spend some time gambling and the like, is what I mean, though actually using the Cardinal also works for this purpose. A bit like how Imaginary Elements get stronger with actual use, but absorbing and studying compatible powers can also give you a big boost due to synergies. Do I have it right?

Wolfy · Dec 21, 2020

Tyrant_Rayne said:
Personally I'd switch EBA and elixir. EBA isn't bad, in fact it has a lot of value. The problem is that it has too much value. 3 more panoply slots is a lot of potential power... if we can properly use them. We can barely get the Arete for our current artifact advancements, adding 3 more would just dilute our limited Arete further. EBA would be better to get in the far future once we've exhausted most of the easy advancements of our current artifacts.

Elixir on the other hand has a lot of value that is relatively easy to obtain in comparison. Gisena can reliably create at least 2 major workings every month. Her creating Elixir alternatives for us should be relatively easy once she figures out how. Literally all we have to do to benefit from Elixir is sit back and relax, with maybe helping Gisena bit from time to time. Compared to our other ways of gaining power this is vastly more easy. Honestly I'm debating if this is even better than SJUC or RR.

One thing to note, however, is that Elixir doesn't generate value, it merely redistributes it from Gisena to Hunger. Now, the right Grace would multiply our overall power(Auspice Temporal being the obvious example), sure, but it would also slow down Gisena's own speed towards power singularity. At some point she will create Sanctum, get in and temporally accelerate it bajillion times, and since she's not a Cursebearer she doesn't need to care about shitty Curse interactions so she can just keep accelerating. The sooner that moment happens the better, and Elixir more or less works by delaying it in order to empower Hunger. Efficiently, given our power, but it still doesn't generate value on its own, unlike RR.

That being said, I completely missed the fact that Elixir is only 18 Arete, which would be enough for me to swap it and EBA out.

ilbgar123 · Dec 21, 2020

Wolfy said:
One thing to note, however, is that Elixir doesn't generate value, it merely redistributes it from Gisena to Hunger. Now, the right Grace would multiply our overall power(Auspice Temporal being the obvious example), sure, but it would also slow down Gisena's own speed towards power singularity. At some point she will create Sanctum, get in and temporally accelerate it bajillion times, and since she's not a Cursebearer she doesn't need to care about shitty Curse interactions so she can just keep accelerating. The sooner that moment happens the better, and Elixir more or less works by delaying it in order to empower Hunger. Efficiently, given our power, but it still doesn't generate value on its own, unlike RR.

That being said, I completely missed the fact that Elixir is only 18 Arete, which would be enough for me to swap it and EBA out.

Mental Apex and Sealing Protocol I should do a lot to get her there. Mental Apex makes her smarter, meaning her research and artifice improve, and SP I is a booster to all of her Graces, including Temporal and Sanctum. I would be unsurprised if making Sorceresses of the girls had benefits to her research as well, as having direct access to people with Graces she doesn't have would likely accelerate her research quite a bit, at least in regards to those Graces, which should have at least some synergy. Especially if Letrizia's lets her leverage her Rank better, as is basically guaranteed.

A Simple Transaction I

Cannon Fodder

Confusion as a Natural State of Being

Not yet invincible

Refuelling

It must be raining somewhere else!

Not yet invincible

Avatar of Mandos

Imperfectly Aligned

Probably Not Evil… Maybe