A Simple Transaction I
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
- Original
HoratioVonBecker
Imperfectly Aligned
- Location
- Louisiana
Ok I step away for a few days and we're spending 50 Arete. It's not that I don't see the blatant power of the option, I'm honestly just more intrigued by the other two characters than the super power angel. But if Arete miners wanna go to work specifically for the power play then I'm not gonna vote against their hard earned currency. It's also not as gloriously shiny as something like a personal EFB for hunger but a supremely powerful being having a vested interest in our survival is pretty cool too. Ah well, when the accursed comes knocking with a personal favor I guess it'd be crazy to not take the biggest option possible. In regards to the other two options, I think they both sound super fun. A permanent companion, with curses built to make him unlikeable, but with a sharp mind and a powerful drive. Plus extra apocryphal procs for INTERESTING TIMES. Or a frequent companion who is boastful and cocky, but with a good amount of personal power and progression to back it up some. Someone who takes risks so blatantly it might actually make hunger go ok that's too far. Honestly whatever option wins I'll be pretty ok with it, but the angel is my least favorite option of the three.
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
These are what I would go for.
Unless rezzing Catherine has major bonuses.
So here's the list of Synthesis posts that got a Rihaku reaction.
Most of the posts are pretty long so it's not clear what Rihaku was reacting to, but the second one is pretty short. It's likely that "What happens if we try sanctifying pure edeldross with a blood donation from Adorie" is what triggered the reaction.
Edeldross that is protected from diminishment and no longer fades away is not edeldross anymore, it's not liminal gloss if it sticks around in broad daylight. Maybe it becomes Elixirdross?
Regardless, I'm confident that her blood will be needed. Gisena speculated that Adorie was a warranty mechanism for the realm of myth. A backup meant to be used to fix any problems that might arise in the future.
...
It's also notable the deep mines are mining raw Myth-infused platinum, meaning if you leave platinum sitting around long enough in a high myth area it naturally accumulates myth.
Do myth concentrations vary? Following greater concentrations of myth until you reach the most mythical point seems a rather simple way to find something of interest. Or we could see if our cloak has anything else it's interested in devouring.
...
Hunger mentions that the Mythwell has probably run dry, but his cloak is still refilling its power over time. Is it drawing that power from an already existing well? From Hunger himself, his actions and his nature? Does it possess some fraction of the mythwell's nature, allowing it to generate a trickle of power?
Either way, the fact that throwing coins into his cloak ACTUALLY WORKED definitely proves that his cloak is a mythwell that is at least partially functional.
Normally a tower is not a well, but just as a well plunges deep into the earth to draw water, a tower rears high into the sky to touch the heavens. Both extend as far as possible into their element. Perhaps instead of absorbing a tower of earth, what we need to absorb is a well of earth. A pit, a mine, a depth.
...
Thanks to Arthur, we know that Ordinal Spiral is a helix, with chrysopoeia as its other half. Perhaps the spiral extends not just upwards but downwards as well, and this descent has its own alphabet and its own ordinals. Taking the descending route also reaches the heart of magic, but instead of becoming an angel you become a demon, and things are slightly different. Arthur did have the choice of taking a special evil-themed blade; perhaps if he'd descended instead of ascending all the Ordinals would be like that. Rihaku hinted at the possibility of evil Ordinal mages stronger than Haeliel, maybe they descended?
And then there was that sword from the first Seram quest, the sword that did the opposite of what chrysopoeia does and drew Control downwards towards death. Perhaps it drew from the inverted Ordinal Spiral?
Or maybe not, and the 0 ordinal is just a basic foundation with no secrets hidden beneath. As Terrascape showed, ascending the Ordinal Spiral accumulates amoral power and nothing else. Becoming an angel could easily be a Haeliel-specific thing.
Most of the posts are pretty long so it's not clear what Rihaku was reacting to, but the second one is pretty short. It's likely that "What happens if we try sanctifying pure edeldross with a blood donation from Adorie" is what triggered the reaction.
Edeldross that is protected from diminishment and no longer fades away is not edeldross anymore, it's not liminal gloss if it sticks around in broad daylight. Maybe it becomes Elixirdross?
Regardless, I'm confident that her blood will be needed. Gisena speculated that Adorie was a warranty mechanism for the realm of myth. A backup meant to be used to fix any problems that might arise in the future.
...
It's also notable the deep mines are mining raw Myth-infused platinum, meaning if you leave platinum sitting around long enough in a high myth area it naturally accumulates myth.
Do myth concentrations vary? Following greater concentrations of myth until you reach the most mythical point seems a rather simple way to find something of interest. Or we could see if our cloak has anything else it's interested in devouring.
...
Hunger mentions that the Mythwell has probably run dry, but his cloak is still refilling its power over time. Is it drawing that power from an already existing well? From Hunger himself, his actions and his nature? Does it possess some fraction of the mythwell's nature, allowing it to generate a trickle of power?
Either way, the fact that throwing coins into his cloak ACTUALLY WORKED definitely proves that his cloak is a mythwell that is at least partially functional.
Normally a tower is not a well, but just as a well plunges deep into the earth to draw water, a tower rears high into the sky to touch the heavens. Both extend as far as possible into their element. Perhaps instead of absorbing a tower of earth, what we need to absorb is a well of earth. A pit, a mine, a depth.
...
Thanks to Arthur, we know that Ordinal Spiral is a helix, with chrysopoeia as its other half. Perhaps the spiral extends not just upwards but downwards as well, and this descent has its own alphabet and its own ordinals. Taking the descending route also reaches the heart of magic, but instead of becoming an angel you become a demon, and things are slightly different. Arthur did have the choice of taking a special evil-themed blade; perhaps if he'd descended instead of ascending all the Ordinals would be like that. Rihaku hinted at the possibility of evil Ordinal mages stronger than Haeliel, maybe they descended?
And then there was that sword from the first Seram quest, the sword that did the opposite of what chrysopoeia does and drew Control downwards towards death. Perhaps it drew from the inverted Ordinal Spiral?
Or maybe not, and the 0 ordinal is just a basic foundation with no secrets hidden beneath. As Terrascape showed, ascending the Ordinal Spiral accumulates amoral power and nothing else. Becoming an angel could easily be a Haeliel-specific thing.
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I feel strongly that we shouldn't bring back Catherine.
Gisena is already fulfilling that role in the narrative and we've already got too many characters already, and voters always keep voting for more. We don't have the time or space to explore what Catherine means to Hunger.
As for rationalizing why Hunger won't bring her back (yet), there are plenty of ways to do it. He's too traumatized. He wants to forget that time in his life. He's told himself he won't raise her until he can actually keep her safe. He can't bear to face that he failed to save her.
I'd prefer if raising her wasn't even an option since I like what that says about Hunger's characterization better, but oh well.
Of course all that's at least somewhat irrelevant since we don't have resurrection magic anyways.
Gisena is already fulfilling that role in the narrative and we've already got too many characters already, and voters always keep voting for more. We don't have the time or space to explore what Catherine means to Hunger.
As for rationalizing why Hunger won't bring her back (yet), there are plenty of ways to do it. He's too traumatized. He wants to forget that time in his life. He's told himself he won't raise her until he can actually keep her safe. He can't bear to face that he failed to save her.
I'd prefer if raising her wasn't even an option since I like what that says about Hunger's characterization better, but oh well.
Of course all that's at least somewhat irrelevant since we don't have resurrection magic anyways.
Tyrant_Rayne
Probably Not Evil… Maybe
- Location
- Canada
Would Hunger even be aware of the benefits we give up?
Now that this is within Arete reach...
[X] The Seraph of Heroism, Haeliel [Basic, 50 Arete]
[X] The Seraph of Heroism, Haeliel [Basic, 50 Arete]
Or we could wait for the Apocrypha and get a True Wish that we use to immediately get the upgraded version of this:
It doesn't decisively solve the Apocrypha like a Defensive version but its a True Wish to augment our powers. Combine that with Pillars and it will massively boost our progress again in a short time. If we don't like the odds against the interesting times then we can just fall back to using the Defensive version instead.
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- Location
- Italy
First, a note: I'm in favour the Moon Temple first and foremost, mostly because it's time limited, but civilization is a close second.
Except... what's stopping us from reaching Civilization AFTER the temple?
Well, other than Apocryphal obviously, but that's always a risk, and the curse should actually sleep for a bit after it, so...
We might even get a chance to sell some of the temple treasures we don't need!
...not in the temple? Are you trying to make me change my mind?!
If that's the case know that it most definitely might work!
...For a moment I was tempted to say "CULTIVATION!", but then I realized that it would have to be a system HUNGER met.
Well, not counting systems we could meet in the future I think that right now there are only two possible picks. Maybe only one, depending on just how much we need to know about them.
1)The gamer powers of "Ber". They might actually synergize pretty well with our exp-based growth.
2)Gisena's powers. My one doubt here is: would we get access to Nullity, or to the graces? If graces, how many coalescences? And just of what quality? Certainly becoming a sorcerer is tempting. It would even boosts Gisena's growth!
Generally speaking the value of this pick heavily depends on the specific system chosen, and I expect it would unlock options aimed at strenghtening this advancement in the future too.
Also there's all the mental +s!
You know, I actually don't like this that much.
I mean, sure, it's strong. I just don't like it. I also already spoke at lenght about staying a cripple, so I likely wouldn't vote for Einhander, which is definitely the better option from a purely stat-based standpoint.
A comparison with the previous option is admittedly unfair, after all that one is a 2 pick 7 arete, but still.
Also I actually think I like Unshattered more than this, and that's the one other 3 pick I can remember.
there was another one too... what was it... Rain something..
here it is. the "we get stronger the more we get wonded" + "I'll take your wounds for myself" option. I think I like this one more than Ruinous Valour too.
this one is interesting. A new mechanics/limitation with this "Defining Advancement" thing, both immediate power and more potential, helps with most time-consuming tasks...
I'm not sure If I'd take it rather than two double picks though. It would heavily depend on the context, arete costs, and similar things.
It's certainly better than basically any 0 arete pick I can think of, but as Arete is ALWAYS a factor...
Except... what's stopping us from reaching Civilization AFTER the temple?
Well, other than Apocryphal obviously, but that's always a risk, and the curse should actually sleep for a bit after it, so...
We might even get a chance to sell some of the temple treasures we don't need!
...not in the temple? Are you trying to make me change my mind?!
If that's the case know that it most definitely might work!
...For a moment I was tempted to say "CULTIVATION!", but then I realized that it would have to be a system HUNGER met.
Well, not counting systems we could meet in the future I think that right now there are only two possible picks. Maybe only one, depending on just how much we need to know about them.
1)The gamer powers of "Ber". They might actually synergize pretty well with our exp-based growth.
2)Gisena's powers. My one doubt here is: would we get access to Nullity, or to the graces? If graces, how many coalescences? And just of what quality? Certainly becoming a sorcerer is tempting. It would even boosts Gisena's growth!
Generally speaking the value of this pick heavily depends on the specific system chosen, and I expect it would unlock options aimed at strenghtening this advancement in the future too.
Also there's all the mental +s!
You know, I actually don't like this that much.
I mean, sure, it's strong. I just don't like it. I also already spoke at lenght about staying a cripple, so I likely wouldn't vote for Einhander, which is definitely the better option from a purely stat-based standpoint.
A comparison with the previous option is admittedly unfair, after all that one is a 2 pick 7 arete, but still.
Also I actually think I like Unshattered more than this, and that's the one other 3 pick I can remember.
there was another one too... what was it... Rain something..
here it is. the "we get stronger the more we get wonded" + "I'll take your wounds for myself" option. I think I like this one more than Ruinous Valour too.
this one is interesting. A new mechanics/limitation with this "Defining Advancement" thing, both immediate power and more potential, helps with most time-consuming tasks...
I'm not sure If I'd take it rather than two double picks though. It would heavily depend on the context, arete costs, and similar things.
It's certainly better than basically any 0 arete pick I can think of, but as Arete is ALWAYS a factor...
440 words. I had another one in me right now apparently
I think character-wise, it'd be pretty weird for Hunger to not even want to resurrect Catherine. Even at the cost of his power, his memories, his identity and his very self, he held onto her image and her final words - words that allowed him to overcome the Tyrant, words from which he still draws the uttermost measure of his strength.
To not commit to bringing back his dearest companion when the opportunity to do so is presented before him, seems like a grave disservice to Hunger's character and essence as a Hero.
It's same argument that made a choice of Freedom without Three Wishes make little character-sense; if Hunger had the opportunity, even if it were to be at the cost of power, he would certainly give everything to resurrect his dead wife. And here, we don't even have the excuse of immediate trauma or lack of power as a reason to not do it as we would have had during the decision between Freedom and Vengeance, because we would be giving up on Catherine's resurrection for purely meta reasons.
Hunger is in a position of relative strength, if not total security, and has endless horizons of potential open to him with numerous untapped sources of power at every corner. And a mere "16 Arete" is too much to spend on resurrecting his dead wife? A feat so absurd as to be thought impossible within the scope of the quest?
Honestly, with Haeliel as our sponsor, a literal Seraph of Heroism, and not doing the heroic thing of finally managing to recover Hunger's most treasured person... it's just completely bizarre to think about.
To not commit to bringing back his dearest companion when the opportunity to do so is presented before him, seems like a grave disservice to Hunger's character and essence as a Hero.
It's same argument that made a choice of Freedom without Three Wishes make little character-sense; if Hunger had the opportunity, even if it were to be at the cost of power, he would certainly give everything to resurrect his dead wife. And here, we don't even have the excuse of immediate trauma or lack of power as a reason to not do it as we would have had during the decision between Freedom and Vengeance, because we would be giving up on Catherine's resurrection for purely meta reasons.
Hunger is in a position of relative strength, if not total security, and has endless horizons of potential open to him with numerous untapped sources of power at every corner. And a mere "16 Arete" is too much to spend on resurrecting his dead wife? A feat so absurd as to be thought impossible within the scope of the quest?
Honestly, with Haeliel as our sponsor, a literal Seraph of Heroism, and not doing the heroic thing of finally managing to recover Hunger's most treasured person... it's just completely bizarre to think about.
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
It doesn't resurrect his dead wife. It gives us permission to do so, eventually, when we have the capacity.
The simple fact is that Hunger chose Vengeance and the power to achieve it over Freedom and his family as payment for taking up the burdens of a Curse. From the Simple Transaction itself and every chapter thereafter, Hunger has been moving onwards and upwards away from the trauma in his past. Only when he is capable of protecting his wife and their unborn child will it make sense to pursue resurrection. Right now we'd do nothing but paint a target on her back (if we even had the capacity to revive her, which we don't).
((And on a meta level: I don't have any particular connection to his wife, the main quest's narrative would not be particularly changed by the addition of a Rank 7 companion, and wordcount is already spread thin for non-build updates.))
Strange9
hdellaverson@gmail.com
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
To be fair, Hunger already had the opportunity to bring back Catherine. He chose to pursue The Vendetta instead -- it would in no way shock me if Hunger chose to pursue greater temporal power in the interests of bringing about that promised day that tiniest bit sooner at the expense of the resurrection.
Moreover, it's notable that only one companion can be brought back. perhaps Hunger simply refuses to bring one back until he can bring them all back (if he's even aware of this choice at all, of course).
- Location
- Europe
It's worth keeping in mind that
1. Hungers wife sacrificing herself had a meaningful affect on the battle against the Tyrant and that dude was fucking strong.
2. Getting access to her will almost certainly get Hunger access to some measure of advancement regarding her as well.
3. Finally, I expect a fuck load of mental wellness points if he gets the chance to bring her back. Optimally I'd be aiming to get her back during the Pillars proc so as to maximise mental wellbeing and minimize the effect curses and external negatives have on their meeting.
1. Hungers wife sacrificing herself had a meaningful affect on the battle against the Tyrant and that dude was fucking strong.
2. Getting access to her will almost certainly get Hunger access to some measure of advancement regarding her as well.
3. Finally, I expect a fuck load of mental wellness points if he gets the chance to bring her back. Optimally I'd be aiming to get her back during the Pillars proc so as to maximise mental wellbeing and minimize the effect curses and external negatives have on their meeting.
Reasonable enough. However, I'd like to point out that while acting under the threat of the Apocryphal Curse, there is no possibility Hunger will ever be able to totally protect any of his companions anyway. As he grows more powerful and engages with increasingly dangerous threats, the risk on their part simply increases and that is absolutely unavoidable given the power-scale that the Rihakuverse operates under. Not even a High Cursebearer - or the Accursed himself - can be rid of a Curse entirely, so planning around somehow achieving a state of 'Enough Power' seems flawed.
While I'm all for riding on that power grind train til the end of time (and possibly beyond that), it probably isn't really applicable to Hunger's circumstances and his overall ambition to avenge himself on the cosmos. Given that he will have companions anyway, I'd rather reunite him with the person most important to him now while we have the opportunity. Particularly, it's important to resurrect Catherine while Hunger remains recognizably... well, human probably isn't applicable anymore, but himself, I guess. He's already adopted a new name, become so absurdly powerful as to trivialize the decade of struggle in his second world, taken upon the Doom of the Tyrant and he will no doubt continue to change endlessly as his infinite Progression alters his existence.
At least bringing back Catherine now allows her to be part of that process. And if we ever intend to have her as a companion during Hunger's journey, rather than a prize attained after finally butchering the Hidden Ones, it's probably best to start early. If we manage to res her now, she can probably benefit and grow in strength alongside Hunger.
Remember, in the course of 2 months, Gisena ascended to a status equal or surpassing the Maiden while Letrizia has acquired a power unheard of in the Human Sphere. That's not even considering the effects Hunger's presence has had on Aeira and Aobaru. Certainly, their achievements was born from their own genius but Hunger was probably a powerful enabler. Should we ever pursue the path of upgrading our companions, which seems to be something the thread particularly wants, I don't doubt that Catherine could attain a measure of relevant power and utility. Would cleave well to the second portion of the Forebear's title as well - Forebear of Dynasties. While I'm still a proponent of personal power above all, there is something to be said about the power of friendship and its potential benefits.
Also, yeah, we still have to create a resurrection power but Graces are a fairly easy way of acquiring such an ability or Haeliel can just teach Vindicate to Gisena and in a couple of weeks (more likely days), Gisena will probably acquire usable resurrection as a magical effect. I don't think difficulty of resurrection is a huge concern, given the viable options already available and the sheer amount of resources which could be used for it.
Catherine's resurrection is easily the most interesting effect Haeliel could give us in a narrative sense, so I'm not nearly as keen on the other bonuses on offer - though Hero Explosion is super fun. And on a meta level, we probably get some degree of access to possible Forebear lore (?) since Catherine is his descendant. But yeah, I support resurrection for character reasons, not meta reasons.
I voted Vengeance for both the aesthetic and power, but now we get to bring in the most important part of Freedom, so I'd kinda like Hunger to both get his cake and eat it too.
Rihaku
The Internet
The preview for the Fifth Empyreal Sign vote is now up on Patreon for Precursor tier and above! This vote will be posted tonight, possibly alongside the Synthesis votes. You may wish to evaluate your Arete spending prioritization in light of all these efforts bearing fruit at once! There are some interesting effects coming up, why not consider Daylian or the Wolber Force?
Especially since it sounds like there's a modest disagreement on what benefits exactly Haeliel's sponsorship would actually yield! One must always weight the probability of getting what one truly wants, given that a vote is resolved in one's favor...
I am curious as to the results of a hypothetical Resurrect Catherine vote, however. Given the immense opportunity costs involved, and the already sizeable cast of allied characters, would Catherine's supporters be able to pull off the only thing that matters?
Especially since it sounds like there's a modest disagreement on what benefits exactly Haeliel's sponsorship would actually yield! One must always weight the probability of getting what one truly wants, given that a vote is resolved in one's favor...
I am curious as to the results of a hypothetical Resurrect Catherine vote, however. Given the immense opportunity costs involved, and the already sizeable cast of allied characters, would Catherine's supporters be able to pull off the only thing that matters?
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
For those who may have forgotten this word of Rihaku/ maybe Devils Advocacy/maybe Doom of Mandos style warning.
forums.sufficientvelocity.com
In the worst case scenario(My plan didn't work or my plan would cost Arete to make it happen), arete spending or using rerolls may be necessary.
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Daylian solves the problem of sourcing myth in spades if we can get some Lazulite from him but throws whether or not we still get picks into question depending on how we mix it with the mundane platinum.
Wolber may have useful advice but how long will it take for us to be able to listen to him? Then again, that achievement on Hunger's part may mean picks are still possible.
Haeliel would solve the problem if we were willing to spend our wish on it but us getting picks for that becomes highly unlikely because how many people here would be willing to spend the wish on that? And then we don't have enough Arete and end up spending rerolls unless we manage an Omakestorm or something.
A Simple Transaction I Original
Synthesis may indeed be possible... but are you willing to pay the price, in Arete or potential re-rolls, to actually succeed?
forums.sufficientvelocity.com
In the worst case scenario(My plan didn't work or my plan would cost Arete to make it happen), arete spending or using rerolls may be necessary.
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Daylian solves the problem of sourcing myth in spades if we can get some Lazulite from him but throws whether or not we still get picks into question depending on how we mix it with the mundane platinum.
Wolber may have useful advice but how long will it take for us to be able to listen to him? Then again, that achievement on Hunger's part may mean picks are still possible.
Haeliel would solve the problem if we were willing to spend our wish on it but us getting picks for that becomes highly unlikely because how many people here would be willing to spend the wish on that? And then we don't have enough Arete and end up spending rerolls unless we manage an Omakestorm or something.
- Location
- Pindorama
Screw the Realm of Myth; this is this and that is that. I'm not giving up my Seraph Says segments.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
I expect it'd be more like those conversations Dresden periodically had with the Archangel Uriel in some of the later Dresden Files books and Short Stories.