What we actually need to do is mine enough to we can get Pillars and Elder Sign, obviously. It's just 6 Arete of effort away! I might have something tomorrow, but no promises. Someone should also convince @Sharkey_smt to drop his omake reserves; he won't be needing them for anything else anymore! How convenient.
 
[X] Once and Future II [25 Arete, 2 picks]
[X] Foremost Blade
[12 Arete]

Probably hopeless to stop the Pillars train and for good reason but I'd like to at least push a little bit for Once and Future II. The first one is what made our Rank so massively disproportionate to our stats but this is likely the best way to fix that. God knows how good Once and Future III will end up being, let alone IV.
 
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[X] Artemisinin

This has good synergy with Fisher King. The Fisher King discount option is tempting but arete seems more common than mitigation opportunities. Foremost blade is good and given enough time we could probably get it down to any 2-pick encounter being sufficient, but between the high Arete cost and the absurd risk inherent in 4 pick fights I'm against it. There are safer ways to get what we want.

[X] Serendipity

I said this previously in regards to a Promise Kept, but I'm almost always in favor of options that explicitly make the story more interesting. Also it's kinda amusing what it implies about the Apocryphal.

[X] Pillars of Creation

I want to read about Hunger having actual downtime and I think this is the only way it'll ever happen. Also I love secret magical dimensions and this one sounds really cool. It seems the Realm of Evening isn't something Hunger is creating, it's some already existing place that he is going to. So who made it, the Foremost/Forebear? Will we find any secret lore there? Is there anyone else able to access this place? Is that name, "Pillars of Creation", literal, will we get to see the underlying structure of this reality? I'd love to get answers to all these things.

Hopefully we manage to generate enough arete but if not I'll probably stick with just the pillars.
 
Hey so Pillars is most likely going to win. Assuming we don't get enough Arete for elder sign what 1 pick advancement do you guys most want to go along with it?
 
[X] Artemisinin
[X] Direct Mitigation
[X] Pillars of Creation
oaf2 is tempting but would probably also murder chance of getting high pick-based stuff for a significant while
 
Fanwork#600 words

Wings of Horn and Silk (posted in full since it was only just over 500 words anyway)

Formflow, as Ruby had decided to call it, had been all that they had hoped it would be, though the burning hunger which initializing the formflow thread had provoked was more painful than they imagined. Fortunately, with formflow optimizing their body's resource consumption, they were able to find enough food to take the edge off and continue training without spending too much time or attracting any attention.

Developing dreamsilk spinnerets had been much less painful, though they were less immediately useful as well. The dreamsilk of this world was vibrant green, strong, flexible, and abundant, which carried ontological implications which Ruby had already mostly figured from the initial Outside observation combined with their experiences inside. Still, they're at least able to fashion some clothing that won't get ripped to tatters whenever they exert their strength, which they've frankly missed. They weren't a tailor and didn't see the point in researching the skill right now, so a simple chiton would do.

Silkflow, however, immediately allowed for them to take on shapes that they couldn't have hoped to fuel under the malignancy of the Flagrant Affliction without it. By creating a scaffold of keratin and stringing it with dreamsilk, they created essentially a puppet body, which was of course massively weaker and slower than a more robust form but also vastly more efficient, which considering the sheer speed of transformation which formflow allowed, was a trade Ruby was happy to make. It felt wasteful to simply discard the dreamsilk when it was no longer needed, but it would dissolve back into the liminal substance of the world eventually and attempting to digest it themself would be a waste of time and resources.

Regardless, flying through the sky of this strange world on wings of horn and silk was a strange experience. Ruby could recall flying on wings before, after he had first graduated from the Edifice. He had wandered the waking world for a long while, before a fateful encounter with one of the founding members of the Collaboration set him down the path to eventually becoming Ruby. He had flown then, often, it was easily his favorite mode of travel. Flying now was...utterly different, if Ruby was honest, but somehow still contained the echoes of the past. Their wings now only barely qualified as alive, but the dreaming sensors which lined their informatic shadow meant that they were as sensitive an organ as his had ever been.

Ruby's reminiscing was cut short when a flying creature tore through their flight-puppet. It was simple to form another one, smaller and more robustly fleshed to allow for faster maneuvering, and while they adjusted their course they briefly scanned the attacker in the dream. Some sort of snake-bat-thing, Ruby would almost be tempted to call it a dragon if it possessed any real power, but even a casual inspection made it clear that it was merely a quick and territorial creature which knew not who it struck at, so a lesser name was called for. Maybe a wyvern.

Choose an approach.

<> Fly. It would be charitable to say that Ruby is 'fleeing' considering the sheer power disparity between them and the wyvern, but ultimately, it's just an animal. It's cruel to kill it for making a mistake which its mind is too simple to realize, and more importantly Ruby doesn't need to waste time taking down measly prey.

<> Fight. Killing the wyvern easily is well within Ruby's ability, and it might be nice to have some red meat as a snack before scoping out the nearby terrain for any interesting destinations. Ruby can't consume it instantly, however, and while their scan indicates the wyvern is a solitary creature, taking a moment to slay and eat it could attract attention. Small chance of further encounter, with heightened chance of elite encounter.

-e

<- Prev | Next ->
 
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<X> Fight. Killing the wyvern easily is well within Ruby's ability, and it might be nice to have some red meat as a snack before scoping out the nearby terrain for any interesting destinations. Ruby can't consume it instantly, however, and while their scan indicates the wyvern is a solitary creature, taking a moment to slay and eat it could attract attention. Small chance of further encounter, with heightened chance of elite encounter.

Snack time with a chance of dinner.
 
[X] Pillars of Creation
[X] Elder Sign


Both.

-e
<X> Fight. Killing the wyvern easily is well within Ruby's ability, and it might be nice to have some red meat as a snack before scoping out the nearby terrain for any interesting destinations. Ruby can't consume it instantly, however, and while their scan indicates the wyvern is a solitary creature, taking a moment to slay and eat it could attract attention. Small chance of further encounter, with heightened chance of elite encounter.

Snack time with a chance of dinner.
You don't know for certain that the potential encounter to follow is necessarily something Ruby would want to eat!
 
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I'm surprised the SORD gang hasn't arisen to champion OaF II... you guys may be sorely underestimating Hunger's need for strength if reckless decision-making continues into the Human Sphere plotline...

If you want, you guys can write in Accelerate Sign (4th) in conjunction with Elder Sign, that would get you into a position to start research on the 5th Sign immediately! Just think of the utility!

The Fisher King discount should be 8 Arete, 1 pick for a total remaining cost of 4 Arete, 1 pick. Note that if all territories are under your control it essentially acts as free total Decimator's mitigation at the cost of some bodily curses and barren crops / infertility... an enormous boon for timeskips where maintaining Huntress' Moon may be extremely impractical!
 
The Fisher King discount should be 8 Arete, 1 pick for a total remaining cost of 4 Arete, 1 pick. Note that if all territories are under your control it essentially acts as free total Decimator's mitigation at the cost of some bodily curses and barren crops / infertility... an enormous boon for timeskips where maintaining Huntress' Moon may be extremely impractical!
Would Hunger be incapable of completing the purchase of Fisher King during a timeskip?
 
Ok. I reread Elder Sign. It looks like the lack of Hunger Penalty only applies to the Odd Numbered Signs. However, it's been established given the Existence of Bring to Heel and the Elder Sign advancement that signs are upgradable. The only question is what it takes to make that happen. So we can apply the Ring of Hunger to our efforts to improve Nightmare Flight and Supreme Enclosure. We're going to need Adorie or a sign hastening to unlock our 4th Sign. But we can apply the Ring of Hunger to unlocking and upgrading our fifth sign. And fifth signs are ludicrously overpowered doozies with costs. Imagine armor of Midnight at double conceptual potency.

Fifth Sign: Armor of Midnight [Evening Sky] - The Cloak of Sky is the heavens and all their intervening vastness unfurled, yet that which was the Shroud of Evening has not forgotten the form of its predecessor. He who dons the Armor of Midnight becomes nigh-invincible to harm or ill, for the aegis of his panoply is as vast and unconquerable as the universal void.

Returns now the Evening Sky - not merely of twilight, but of all darkness, king!


Casting time: 10 minutes
Duration: 8 hours
Cooldown: 1 week
Reagents: If below Rank 11, burn .1 Rank, otherwise burn .01 Rank.

The wielder is nigh-invincible. Treat his Protection as effectively infinite for purposes of defending against any form of harm incapable of destroying the entire universe, otherwise treat his Protection as increased by one thousand. Non-damaging hostile conditions and unwanted esoteric conditions have their impact mitigated by three orders of magnitude or by a degree appropriate to the effect if it had attempted to target all interplanetary space within the entire universe, whichever mitigation is greater. This grants effective Stage II mitigation of all Curses while active. Returns the appearance of the Cloak of Sky to that of the Evening Sky while active; the disguise function of Skyveil may not be used for the duration.

I guess infinite times 2 is infinite unless this unlocks a cardinal escalation of infinity. It probably gives us 2000 additional protection against universe busters. Three orders of magnitude for nondamaging hostile conditions and unwanted esoteric conditions. Hostile conditions would currently be divided by 1000 assuming I understand right. Doubling this is like dividing by 2000. So esoteric effects either get diluted by the size of the universe(Or whatever this means with conceptual potency doubling) or divided by 2000, whichever is better for us. This may lead to stage 2+ Curse mitigation while active. And we haven't even seen the other options for the fifth sign. It's basically 8 hours of invulnerability against anything short of a universebuster.

10^0 = 1 10^1 = 10, 10^2 = 100, 10^3 = 1000

Given the Word of Rihaku that we can buy a hastened sign here, I'm changing my vote.


[x]Fisher King
[x]Direct Mitigation
[x]Elder Sign
[x]Hasten 4th Sign
 
Argument for Artemisinin and Golden Hour
807 Words

After thinking a while longer, I'm going to change my vote. Brain told me that Pillars is only accessible during "plausible" acquisition points, which I believe will be less frequent once we leave the Realm of Myth. With that stipulation in place, its priority shoots way up. If I believe that we are guaranteed one pick in the next two weeks, then the Fisher King advancement is no more pressing than Pillars is.

[X] Artemisinin
[X] Golden Hour
[X] Elder Sign
[X] Pillars of Eternity

This vote requires the generation of about 6 Arete before Aabcehmu's multiplier comes into effect. I am mildly optimistic about hitting this target. The discussion modifier is high and I have some fan-content that's ready to be published. I might be able to get some mining in tomorrow night, as well. So it's worth a shot, at least.

I think that Pillars voters should consider this build as well!

Artemisinin extends the duration of our Huntress' Moon mitigation, which is important because Hunger is going to live through about 75% more waking hours than before. Without Artemisinin or Fisher King active, Hunger's subjects (who do not accompany him to the Realm of Evening) will see him need two Fishing Trips per lunar month to prevent Decimating the Realm of Evening. Activating one or more of these duration multipliers will close off a major weakness of Hunger's style of rulership. Specifically, each Hunting Trip is an opportunity for things to go wrong while Hunger is unavailable. Minimizing "time away from the office" due to the Decimator's Affliction amounts to indirect Apocryphal mitigation, imo.

Apocryphal mitigation is really important right now because Apocrypha-chan gets a major bonus from Pillars of Eternity. Consider the time period of a lunar month: at baseline there are 28 days available. We have 17.5% direct mitigation of the curse, so right now we face 23.1 "days worth" of Apocryphal power every month. With pillars adding 21 days at 1/3 power to every month, that's an additional 7 "days worth" of Apocryphal power every month. Getting Pillars without any Apocryphal Mitigation would've increased its power by roughly 30%.

Direct mitigation of the Apocryphal curse changes our mitigation to 27.5%. That's 20.3 "days worth" of Apocryphal power every month in the real world, plus 7 days from our time in the Realm of Evening. An 18.2% increase in net "days worth" of power for the Apocryphal Curse.

Golden Hour reduces the rate of accumulation of Apocryphal power by one eighth: 12.5%. Reducing the rate at which power accumulates still limits the Curse's budget of "days worth" of power. It would end up with ~20.12 "days worth" plus the 7 days in the Realm of Evening. This leaves us with a 17.8% increase in Apocryphal power compared to before we had Pillars.

Serendipity leaves the budget alone, but redirects "up to" 1 in 7 curse activations to be favorable to us. Say the true rate is 1 in 8 events. Then we could treat favorable events as simply lost power, and the Curse would experience a 14% increase in effectiveness between Pillars + Serendipity. But if we treat favorable events as setbacks for the Apocryphal curse (each with 1/2 of the magnitude of a normal negative event) then Pillars plus Serendipity leaves Apocrypha chan with only +5.9% available budget in terms of "days worth" of power.

Now, obviously these numbers aren't particularly exact. The difference between 17.8% and 18.2% is absolutely not going to show up in the narrative. And, the AC operates outside of time and causality and can ignore all these limitations if they will be "interesting." So the only concrete conclusion I have to offer is that Direct Mitigation and Golden Hour are roughly equivalent, while Serendipity will be considerably more effective in terms of easing the difficulties we face by Apocrypha-chan.

However, I think there's a strong argument to be made that Golden Bloom is more synergistic with our Huntress' Moon mitigation than Direct Mitigation is. Pressuring the Curse to activate less frequently will also leave us injured less frequently. Since we will have access to the Realm of Evening, nearly any injury can be erased or overcome, assuming we survive it. But our access to the Realm of Evening is limited. It is better to take a perilous fight (at 17.5% mitigation) once per month than to take several serious fights (at 27.5% mitigation) every couple weeks.




TL;DR:
  • Artemisinin is indirect Apocryphal Mitigation
  • Serendipity is unambiguously more powerful than the other two Apocryphal mitigation options, but the high price tag makes it hard to swallow.
  • Realm of Evening is better when used to recover from infrequent perilous Apocryphal fights under Golden Hour, compared to the more frequent but slightly less serious Apocryphal fights we can expect with direct mitigation.
 
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My issue with Forebear Blade is that getting in now is sort of pointless? Like, the rationale is that it provides perfect mitigation and that, thanks to Artemisinin, we know that we can eventually reduce difficulty of fight until we make it sustainable. But, if that's the case, why not get Artemisinin now and enjoy it's benefits and then get Forebear Blade once we have enough difficulty reduction to make it relevant?

I just don't see a reason to get it over Artemisinin.
Imagine armor of Midnight at double conceptual potency.
Battle Rank is much more relevant here, actually. With SitS, we'd be at Rank 11.5 when casting it, so we'd be paying 0.01 Rank rather than 0.1. That would make armor vastly more spammable.
 
I wonder if the Realm of Evening will resemble the inside of the Temple?

They called the moon the "anchor of the world itself". They were probably mining the moon for power, as evidenced by the way the Temple seemed to clutch at the moon with its spires. And the power they stole created a place of vast and extraordinary comfort.

From the Sayings of Plerion:
No False Moon is this, but the anchor of the world itself! Come now into mine grasp, that my descedents may flourish evermore.

Now look at the Realm of Evening. The option that gets us there is called "Pillars of Creation", implying that same connection to the fundamental nature of the world as the anchor of the world. And it's a location of extraordinary comfort.

Both Temple and Realm of EVening grant longevity. Both are tied to the moon; the realm of evening can only be accessed once per lunar cycle, and the Temple of the Moon was obsessed with the moon. Odd, isn't it, that the ring whose domains are Truth, Artifice, and Mind was at the heart of a Temple devoted to the moon? It's almost like the Ring was an afterthought, just a tool they used to get at the real prize, which was some of that opulence and comfort in the Realm of Evening.

Hunger normally can't take anything from the Realm of Evening, as per Pillars, but perhaps by studying what the Temple did we might figure out a few tricks. The Temple used the Ring in order to steal the comfort and life-extension of the Realm of Evening and bring it into reality, perhaps we can do the same.

Perhaps the reason the Temple was pressurized was because it was directly connected to the Realm of Evening, where the air is denser. Soul Evocation faded if they left the Temple. That's not a power they stole from the Ring, it's a power they stole from the Realm of Evening, another sign of the lunar connection they somehow created via the Ring's artifice.

Also note that Hunger doesn't belong in the Realm of Evening. Pillars of Creation mentions "stealing" away into the Realm of Evening, where Hunger and his companions are "interlopers".

There was some speculation on this at the time, but I don't recall it being discussed much.

There might indeed be some relation between the Evening Sky and the False Moon. Remember, a big thing that the Moonslavers get out of their ring is Soul Evocation, which the Evening Sky can also grant, and the upgrade that grants it is called Azure Moon...

Scratch that, there is 100% some relation between the two. Too many things add up.

So many questions.
-Is the air in the Realm of Evening similar to the air in the Temple?
-Does the Ring know or remember anything about this?
-Can we steal artifacts into the world like the Temple did?
-Who actually belongs in the Realm of Evening? Is this someone's home? Imagine if we found a fishing rod beside a pond, right next to the Forebear's tomb...
-We got the cloak of evening from an Apocryphal encounter, was she leading us here?
-The Realm of Evening should have a moon, perhaps even an Azure Moon. We need to see it. Perhaps with a bit of bathing in the moon-light we can unlock Soul Evocation. Of course our Soul Evocation will fade outside the Realm of Evening, but we'll be back to renew it for 21 days every month so I'm not concerned.
-Imagine if we spent a full month in the Realm of Evening. Would there be any bonus for that?

523 words
 
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  • Serendipity is unambiguously more powerful than the other two Apocryphal mitigation options, but the high price tag makes it hard to swallow.
Really? Like, one thing to note is that every mitigation consumes a precious mitigation slot - as such, spending Arete to make it more valuable is pretty efficient.

As for Serendipity itself, 1/7 good events means reducing overall power of Apo to 5/7 as good and bad negate, so that's 28% reduction, plus some Accursed Favor on top of that. That's pretty decent if we get enough Arete. Plus you get memes. It's quite nice.
 
@Zampano I'm convinced. Depending on Arete situation I may switch to Pillars but hastening our 4th sign is quite tempting.


[X]Artemisinin
[x]Golden Hour
[x]Elder Sign
[x]Accelerate Sign (4th)
 
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[X] Artemisinin
[X] Direct Mitigation
[X] Elder Sign
[X] Pillars of Eternity

I'm choosing to believe in the greed, which means definitely more content from me tomorrow.
 
[X] Artemisinin
[X] Golden Hour
[X] Pillars of Creation
[X] Elder Sign


I have entered the zampwagon.
 
I think I'm starting to sour on the notion of a pillars switch. This doesn't address the possibility we encounter Aobaru's terminator in less than 2 weeks. We can hasten our 4th sign for 7 arete to potentially get another power option and hit the ground running on the fifth sign for an even bigger power or utility option, whatever precisely the description of the Hasten Signs Blurb means.

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

A Simple Transaction I Original

I'm surprised the SORD gang hasn't arisen to champion OaF II... you guys may be sorely underestimating Hunger's need for strength if reckless decision-making continues into the Human Sphere plotline... If you want, you guys can write in Accelerate Sign (4th) in conjunction with Elder Sign, that...
If you want, you guys can write in Accelerate Sign (4th) in conjunction with Elder Sign, that would get you into a position to start research on the 5th Sign immediately! Just think of the utility!

[ ] Hasten Signs [19 Arete] - Hunger will hasten his acquisition of the Fourth and Fifth Empyreal Signs from the Cloak of Sky. This has the potential to grant immense power and capability, or access to a versatile effect somewhat greater in utility than the Second and Third Signs.
 
Really? Like, one thing to note is that every mitigation consumes a precious mitigation slot - as such, spending Arete to make it more valuable is pretty efficient.

As for Serendipity itself, 1/7 good events means reducing overall power of Apo to 5/7 as good and bad negate, so that's 28% reduction, plus some Accursed Favor on top of that. That's pretty decent if we get enough Arete. Plus you get memes. It's quite nice.
Pendantry: When accounting for good events' ability to negate bad events, remember that the blurb says the "benefits are usually not that amazing". I take that to mean that a positive Apocryphal event will not fully counteract the effects of a normal event. Say that a positive event negates 1/2 of a negative event. That's still ~20% mitigation!

I'd estimate that the bulk of the option's power comes from the ability to fully negate an intended negative effect. The positive effects seem like they are going to be modest, most of the time.


I won't dispute your efficiency argument. Trouble is that I'm not sure we have time to grind 24 more Arete and there's not really a loud contingent of A Promise Kept voters who are desperate to relitigate Trinity. So it seems like the votes aren't there.
 
I think I'm starting to sour on the notion of a pillars switch. This doesn't address the possibility we encounter Aobaru's terminator in less than 2 weeks. We can hasten our 4th sign for 7 arete to potentially get another power option and hit the ground running on the fifth sign for an even bigger power or utility option, whatever precisely the description of the Hasten Signs Blurb means.

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

A Simple Transaction I Original

I'm surprised the SORD gang hasn't arisen to champion OaF II... you guys may be sorely underestimating Hunger's need for strength if reckless decision-making continues into the Human Sphere plotline... If you want, you guys can write in Accelerate Sign (4th) in conjunction with Elder Sign, that...
I mean, if you worry about terminator then Elder Sign is a shit choice and we should get SitS into OaF II. It's not an argument against Pillars alone.

Making sure that we get next Pillars window is absolutely crucial for our Hunger Sated. Plus, we might unlock Pathway too, which would allow us to sleep in Pillars every night, allowing us to massively mitigate Apo for minimal cost.
Pendantry: When accounting for good events' ability to negate bad events, remember that the blurb says the "benefits are usually not that amazing". I take that to mean that a positive Apocryphal event will not fully counteract the effects of a normal event. Say that a positive event negates 1/2 of a negative event. That's still ~20% mitigation!

I'd estimate that the bulk of the option's power comes from the ability to fully negate an intended negative effect. The positive effects seem like they are going to be modest, most of the time.
Yeah, but consider that due to nature of Hunger's power, good effects will accumulate value over time. I do consider them slightly better than negative effects even if they have lesser absolute value in vacuum.
 
I mean, if you worry about terminator then Elder Sign is a shit choice and we should get SitS into OaF II. It's not an argument against Pillars alone.

Making sure that we get next Pillars window is absolutely crucial for our Hunger Sated. Plus, we might unlock Pathway too, which would allow us to sleep in Pillars every night, allowing us to massively mitigate Apo for minimal cost.

Yeah, but consider that due to nature of Hunger's power, good effects will accumulate value over time. I do consider them slightly better than negative effects even if they have lesser absolute value in vacuum.
We take OAF II we're as prepared for round 1 with the terminator as we can be. If the terminator escapes though, we're boned due to pick starvation and no venues of scaling. It's great but it seems like tunnelvisioning on one goal at the expense of the others.
 
[X] Artemisinin
[X] Direct Mitigation
[X] Pillars of Creation
[X] Opalescence


This seems like the most straightforward choice to me. Gisena needs materials for Artificing, we've got stacks on stacks of unique reagents. Our kids feeling the effects of Decimation? Anagathic peaches, baby. Punctured soul got us down? Good thing the effects of items inside remain, baby. We've got so many things we need to do that Pillars does well.

I'm also pretty sure that we could scrounge up a fight that nets us Passion or War, so there's that.
 
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