ganonso
Compulsive Quest Starter
- Location
- PACA France
Nobody is hurt yet it's just an image to say "never". Except if you want a Silmaril that is. Which is possible.
A Light from the Shadow (Tolkien CKII)
- Thread starter ganonso
- Start date
Nobody is hurt yet it's just an image to say "never". Except if you want a Silmaril that is. Which is possible.
- Location
- Reno
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[x] The Taverns of the Third Circle
- Location
- Germany
Even mentioning it in any kind of promise seems to be bad luck.
- Location
- The World
And here we see the most blatant derailment of Tolkien's actual depictions. Because god forbid the main bulwark against the Shadow be the shining, morally strong jewel that Tolkien made it. God forbid you let good men be good men and powerful men be self-mastered and strong-willed enough to stay true to the Good and Noble ways. God forbid you let Gondor be Gondor where even mere stewards can get even results against Sauron through the fricking palantir.
You basically turned Gondor into Umbar. My suspension of disbelief is gone. Unless Morianor suddenly became the most unreliable narrator on the face of Tolkien fanfiction, which is almost as bad.
Hollywood taught you well indeed. You are a true follower of the Peter Jackson school, bleeding the nobility and courage and truth and honor out of the few in this universe that managed to hang onto the noble virtues through blood, sweat and tears. Just like Jackson made Frodo turn on Sam because drama. Just like he turned Merry from the best-read and wise hobbit alive into a kid. Just like he turned Pippin from a brave hero capable of singlehandedly seeing himself and Merry out of their kidnapping into comic relief. Just like he turned Aragorn from a determined war hero too old for self-deprecation into a poor, unconfident love-struck vagrant in need of a strong woman to decide his life's choices. Just like he made Gandalf into a contrary old man that doesn't know basic strategy and advises Theoden to do everything opposite from what he does in the books. Just like he turned Faramir into Boromir's even more weak-willed charicature instead of someone who deduced the ring's existence and shrugged off any temptation for it from the moment he laid eyes on the hobbits.
Gondor is the inheritor of the best of humanity. Because yes, Numenor was the best of humanity even before the Valar uplifted them on account of it being literally the best they could do after the shitshow that had just happened in Middle Earth. Numenor was a net benefit to Arda before Sauron undermined it, and even afterwards if you weigh all the scales. Not this charicature of the fake British colonialism lie being peddled by fake news media today. Numenor was Atlantis and the world was no lesser for the few trees they chopped down. I don't see you going after the ship-happy elves who chopped up so many more trees than the men did and continue to do so to this day.
I could go on about this for ages, but I hope I made my point.
You basically turned Gondor into Umbar. My suspension of disbelief is gone. Unless Morianor suddenly became the most unreliable narrator on the face of Tolkien fanfiction, which is almost as bad.
Hollywood taught you well indeed. You are a true follower of the Peter Jackson school, bleeding the nobility and courage and truth and honor out of the few in this universe that managed to hang onto the noble virtues through blood, sweat and tears. Just like Jackson made Frodo turn on Sam because drama. Just like he turned Merry from the best-read and wise hobbit alive into a kid. Just like he turned Pippin from a brave hero capable of singlehandedly seeing himself and Merry out of their kidnapping into comic relief. Just like he turned Aragorn from a determined war hero too old for self-deprecation into a poor, unconfident love-struck vagrant in need of a strong woman to decide his life's choices. Just like he made Gandalf into a contrary old man that doesn't know basic strategy and advises Theoden to do everything opposite from what he does in the books. Just like he turned Faramir into Boromir's even more weak-willed charicature instead of someone who deduced the ring's existence and shrugged off any temptation for it from the moment he laid eyes on the hobbits.
Gondor is the inheritor of the best of humanity. Because yes, Numenor was the best of humanity even before the Valar uplifted them on account of it being literally the best they could do after the shitshow that had just happened in Middle Earth. Numenor was a net benefit to Arda before Sauron undermined it, and even afterwards if you weigh all the scales. Not this charicature of the fake British colonialism lie being peddled by fake news media today. Numenor was Atlantis and the world was no lesser for the few trees they chopped down. I don't see you going after the ship-happy elves who chopped up so many more trees than the men did and continue to do so to this day.
I could go on about this for ages, but I hope I made my point.
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- Location
- ferreries
You do realise that at one point Gondor descended into civil war simply because the heir aparent was the son of a woman that didn't have numenorian blood right? Like, thats Tolkien written canon.
Gondors history is a long one, it has both it's bright moments of heroism and righteosness and it's dark moments of bigotry and elitism, among much else.
Just because ganonso decided to shine a light upon the later doesn't sudenly make this into an insult of all things Tolkien wrote.
Honestly, you're really overreacting.
Also, "Numenor was a net benefit to Arda"? I'm going to asume you haven't read much of the canonical texts about late second age Numenor, because that mess started long before Sauron managed to get the ear of the king. He only exacerbated an already bad situation.
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[x] The Taverns of the Third Circle: Yes Gondor has its underbelly just like all society. You doubted that but then you saw the Elves of Rivendell singing and well… You thought Elves were meant to be temperate before being corrected by Elrond and Galadriel. The perspective of the common man is interesting because it seems so less important for those in power. Also your healing of Palantir has allowed you to understand a bit about Man's desire to escape the world.
- Location
- The World
No I am not overreacting. Even near the literal end of LOTR Book 3 barely anyone had anything truly bad to say about Denethor or the stewards lineage, not because of muh intrigue or muh tyranny but because they literally had nothing bad to say. You bring up a civil war as argument for 'muh long history' and then undercut your own argument by not realising that the civil war you mentioned was won by the non-racialists and there was no tyranny in the aftermath. The bullet was dodged and the Umbar path avoided.
The entire point of Gondor is that it has NOT 'fallen under the Shadow.' There is NO decadent court and there is NO seedy underbelly in Gondor, making Morianor's whole inner monologue invalid along with even one of the voting options at least.
What next, will we find out that Umbar refugees are only allowed as part of a plot to shatter or even genocide the south somehow? Why, Gondor might just be aiming to get their hands on a ring of power of their own. Or oh! Maybe Dol Amroth plans to murder everyone in the Steward lineage and possibly Arnor as well in order to usurp the Kingdom of Gondor because Elvish blood is superior and deserves all the things, that would be a riot.
Ganonso is NOT "shining a light" and I am not overreacting.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
Is "White Power" meant to be titled that?
[X] The Archives of the White Power: Full of lore and loremasters. They risk to be a little crowded as some of the Wise' priorities are delving the Council that refused the crown of Gondor to Arvedui. Still it is perhaps the most furnished mortal library you can access. (The Archives of Khazad-Dum will be opened to you the day you find a Silmaril according to the loremasters of the Dwarves)
[X] The Archives of the White Power: Full of lore and loremasters. They risk to be a little crowded as some of the Wise' priorities are delving the Council that refused the crown of Gondor to Arvedui. Still it is perhaps the most furnished mortal library you can access. (The Archives of Khazad-Dum will be opened to you the day you find a Silmaril according to the loremasters of the Dwarves)
KnightDisciple
Brotherhood. Unity. Peace.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
[x] The Taverns of the Third Circle: Yes Gondor has its underbelly just like all society. You doubted that but then you saw the Elves of Rivendell singing and well… You thought Elves were meant to be temperate before being corrected by Elrond and Galadriel. The perspective of the common man is interesting because it seems so less important for those in power. Also your healing of Palantir has allowed you to understand a bit about Man's desire to escape the world.
- Location
- ferreries
So, apparently all good guys must be flawless paragons of virtue, and if they have even the slightest flaw it's a sign that the author is writting them like villains, good to know.
Now, you bring up the fact that the non radicals won the Kin-strife as if that means Gondor must be an absolutute "good guy" without any grey thown into it. Now, a little history lesson then, and remember this is all Tolkien written canon:
Eldacar, born of Gondorian father and a woman of the Northmen of Rhovanion, succeeded his father in 1432, that same year a revolt ocurred because many Gondorians saw Eldacar as a halfbreed who had no right to rule. The leader of this revolt was a distant relative of Eldacar named Castamir, who was the Lord of Ships at the time.
Five years later, in 1437 Castamir wins this civil war, kills Eldacar's son and heir, and forces Eldacar to run away to his mother's family in Rhovanion in search of asylum.
Ten years later, the cruel reign of Castamir triggers a peasant revolt and Eldacar siezes the moment, invading Gondor at the head of a Northmen army and ultimately regaining his throne in the "Battle of the Crossings of Erui".
Yeah, I can feel that Gondorian righteousness when a faction that is basically a proto-King's men 2.0 is able to usurp the throne and is only defeated thanks to foreign intervention.
Yes, Eldacar did eventualy retake his throne, that however doesn't mean that the underlying issues that caused the civil war magically disapeared. Chief among them being Gondorian elitism and a belief in the importance of Numenorian pure blood.
Now, all of this doesn't make Gondor "the bad guys" like you seem to believe ganonso is writting them, it does however make them flawed.
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ganonso
Compulsive Quest Starter
- Location
- PACA France
Nope it's a typo even if an interesting one compared to the issues we're talking about
. I'm not going to convince anyone who doesn't want to be convinced but even in the LOTR , Gondor is not a shining beacon of morality. Denethor, while not as stupidly antagonistic as in the movies, remains someone who misses the bigger picture of the war against Sauron.
Faramir is nice but he is the guy who introduces Frodo to the whole 'Men of the West, Middle Men, Men of Darkness" nonsense who when you consider the Dunlendings are Edain is not even followed coherently by Gondor.
There is totally an undercurrent of bigotry in Gondor and you see it in its ruling family. And it's coherent when you look at the division of the northen kingdom. Gondor is not an heroic untarnished faction because in Tolkien nobody is. If you look at the First Age all Elves Kingdoms are critized by the text for one thing or another, generally because they turn their siege mentality against those they were meant to help.
As for Numenor. The troubles began well before Sauron. IMHO I would put the beginnng of the Shadow with the tale of Aldarion and Enrendis. Yes it's just normal people failing a normal marriage but that's the point I think. Aldarion is already as petty and vain as any normal guy (don't get me wrong Erendis has her share of issues with the situation too). Then Ancalimë outright renunces sending aid to Gil-Galad proving a tendency to isolationism who degenerated into full blown colonialism. (Tollkien was at this point pumping the Plato Atlantis for the main narrative arc).
I mean if we look at the protagonist factions of the Legendarium
- Doriath refuses to participate in many of the battles against Angband because Thingol refuses to hel the Sons of Féanor
- The Sons of Féanor are the Sons of Féanor and alternate between passive-agressive and outright villainous behaviour
- Gondolin and Nargothrond decides at different moments to close their borders even to those pursueud by Morgoth' hatred. Then their leaders decide to ignore divine commands and trust in the invicibility of their forces
- Numenor is the Downfallen in many ways and Sauron does not enter the picture before Ar-Pharazon. They already descended into blasphemy at this stage.
- Gondor has the Kin-Strife, retakes a colonial empire with the Ship-Kings. Denethor is thinking only of his kingdom as evidenced by Gandalf discussion with him at the beginning of Return of the King (the bit where Gandalf basicallys says he is also a Steward but for the entire world )
- Arnor divided well before there was a rumor of the Witch King in the region.
That doesn't mean they are not heroic. That doesn't mean these are not forces of good in the world. Yet they are not perfect and I think it's Tolkien's point just as martial victory against Morgoth and Sauron was never to be possible without divine intervention. Arda is a fallen world where perfection by nature cannot exist so no one is innocent.
Also I find funny to hear I'm influenced by Hollywood when the big blockbuster way of doing things is to up the moral manicheism to max. I've read way more fanfics where the Kin Strife or Numenor Fall are outright commanded by Sauron than the reverse.
- Location
- The World
They do have flaws. They are insufficiently mighty to handle Sauron without divine help, they had a fair few leaders more honorable or foolish than with good sense, and they can lust for power with the best of them.
That's more than enough "flaws".
There's flaws and then there's corruption and degeneracy. Since you don't seem to see the difference between them and have decided to change Middle Earth into some strange fanfiction about Gondor being watered down Westeros (Instead of something like The Acceptable Sacrifice by Larner, if you really can't help yourself and MUST swap Tolkien's own work for watered down fanfic because being the underdog and weak to power lust are not already flaws enough), I shall recuse myself from this topic and the quest entirely.Nope it's a typo even if an interesting one compared to the issues we're talking about
I'm not going to convince anyone who doesn't want to be convinced but even in the LOTR , Gondor is not a shining beacon of morality. Denethor, while not as stupidly antagonistic as in the movies, remains someone who misses the bigger picture of the war against Sauron.
Faramir is nice but he is the guy who introduces Frodo to the whole 'Men of the West, Middle Men, Men of Darkness" nonsense who when you consider the Dunlendings are Edain is not even followed coherently by Gondor.
There is totally an undercurrent of bigotry in Gondor and you see it in its ruling family. And it's coherent when you look at the division of the northen kingdom. Gondor is not an heroic untarnished faction because in Tolkien nobody is. If you look at the First Age all Elves Kingdoms are critized by the text for one thing or another, generally because they turn their siege mentality against those they were meant to help.
As for Numenor. The troubles began well before Sauron. IMHO I would put the beginnng of the Shadow with the tale of Aldarion and Enrendis. Yes it's just normal people failing a normal marriage but that's the point I think. Aldarion is already as petty and vain as any normal guy (don't get me wrong Erendis has her share of issues with the situation too). Then Ancalimë outright renunces sending aid to Gil-Galad proving a tendency to isolationism who degenerated into full blown colonialism. (Tollkien was at this point pumping the Plato Atlantis for the main narrative arc).
I mean if we look at the protagonist factions of the Legendarium
- Doriath refuses to participate in many of the battles against Angband because Thingol refuses to hel the Sons of Féanor
- The Sons of Féanor are the Sons of Féanor and alternate between passive-agressive and outright villainous behaviour
- Gondolin and Nargothrond decides at different moments to close their borders even to those pursueud by Morgoth' hatred. Then their leaders decide to ignore divine commands and trust in the invicibility of their forces
- Numenor is the Downfallen in many ways and Sauron does not enter the picture before Ar-Pharazon. They already descended into blasphemy at this stage.
- Gondor has the Kin-Strife, retakes a colonial empire with the Ship-Kings. Denethor is thinking only of his kingdom as evidenced by Gandalf discussion with him at the beginning of Return of the King (the bit where Gandalf basicallys says he is also a Steward but for the entire world )
- Arnor divided well before there was a rumor of the Witch King in the region.
That doesn't mean they are not heroic. That doesn't mean these are not forces of good in the world. Yet they are not perfect and I think it's Tolkien's point just as martial victory against Morgoth and Sauron was never to be possible without divine intervention. Arda is a fallen world where perfection by nature cannot exist so no one is innocent.
Also I find funny to hear I'm influenced by Hollywood when the big blockbuster way of doing things is to up the moral manicheism to max. I've read way more fanfics where the Kin Strife or Numenor Fall are outright commanded by Sauron than the reverse.
Gondor has flaws, not corruption and degeneracy, no matter what Numenor and the early elves were like. One civilization does not justify you literally changing another because "muh flaws." If there were a decadent court, there would have been accession problems in Book 3. If there were a seedy underbelly, there would have been a thieves guild, spy plots, betrayal from within and possibly plague in Book 3 because of slums and cesspools that Tolkien most definitely did NOT put in Gondor. Gondor was the legacy of the GOOD parts of Numenor that didn't go down the drain, Sauron or not.
Have fun with Westeros 2.0. Out of respect for Tolkien, who was man enough to let Good be Good and write a human kingdom that WAS the paragon of virtue you and @Shador seem to think isn't already humanised and flawed enough to exist, I shall no longer participate in this quest. I will instead remove myself along with my disappointment in what could have been a good tribute to him.
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- Location
- Anchorage, Alaska
were going to do better...and find two of them and show it to the dwarves...and then we will find the archeives. Because you NEVER tempt fate in this setting, OR bet against the Valar...or perhaps if Illuvtar decides to muck with things.
- Location
- ferreries
Again, this falls a bit flat when I can simply open my copies of Lotr and the Silmarillion and read how you're wrong. Anyway, I can see that you're not going to listen to any argument, no matter how well researched or what evidence I provide you, that Gondor wasn't the perfect kingdom you seem to believe it was, so goodbye.
@ganonso , I dearly hope that this incident hasn't robbed you of your motivation because this is one of my favorite quests on this site.
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ganonso
Compulsive Quest Starter
- Location
- PACA France
Gives me the motivation to make a cross-over between the Legendarium and Westeros except the House of Elendil (where one of Isildur's councilors outright proposes Isildur seizes the Iron Throne because the Edain are superior) and the Lion Roars have that covered.
Perhaps with Turin Turambar . He is a dragon-slaying incestous dickhead so he would feel right at home.
Or perhaps another interpretation of the Lannisters. There are things in the Lion Roars I rather dislike after all. But they are a good faction to showcase the moral difference between ASOIF and Middle-Earth
- Location
- Titan
In perfect fairness to Turin, I don't think anyone who had a life like him would end up much better than him.
[X] The Archives of the White Power: Full of lore and loremasters. They risk to be a little crowded as some of the Wise' priorities are delving the Council that refused the crown of Gondor to Arvedui. Still it is perhaps the most furnished mortal library you can access. (The Archives of Khazad-Dum will be opened to you the day you find a Silmaril according to the loremasters of the Dwarves)
[X] The Archives of the White Power: Full of lore and loremasters. They risk to be a little crowded as some of the Wise' priorities are delving the Council that refused the crown of Gondor to Arvedui. Still it is perhaps the most furnished mortal library you can access. (The Archives of Khazad-Dum will be opened to you the day you find a Silmaril according to the loremasters of the Dwarves)
always_confused
Perpetually unwanted
- Location
- SEA
[x] The Taverns of the Third Circle
- Location
- Texas
[x] The Taverns of the Third Circle
Let's face it, we aren't as smart as Saruman or clever as Gandalf. But what we have better then any of them is our empathy, to see the suffering of others and find ways to help as best he can. I think he can learn as much with the common man as he could in the White Tower.
That, and if anyone deserves to try afew pints, it's our wounded wizard.
Let's face it, we aren't as smart as Saruman or clever as Gandalf. But what we have better then any of them is our empathy, to see the suffering of others and find ways to help as best he can. I think he can learn as much with the common man as he could in the White Tower.
That, and if anyone deserves to try afew pints, it's our wounded wizard.