A Golden Island To The West — California ISOT from 2018 to 1850
- Thread starter Instant Sunrise
- Start date
- Original 19th Century Supernatural
- Location
- los angeles
Great story you have .when you get a chance read mine.
Flectarn
Uphold Kali Akuno Thought
- Location
- Queen City of the Ohio
useful:
Torching the Modern-Day Library of Alexandria
“Somewhere at Google there is a database containing 25 million books and nobody is allowed to read them.”
www.theatlantic.com
How Google Book Search Got Lost | Backchannel
Google Books was the company’s first moonshot. But 15 years later, the project is stuck in low-Earth orbit.
- Location
- California
Even igbnoring that, the US might not want it. Because by 1860 in the OTL, Oregon's population was 52,465. in this, there re likely more Californian's up there by 1855, due to the higher tech, and closer range. Oregon has a lot of natural resources, farming and logging alike (and however much CA may want to avoid it, yes, you'll need some level of logging, albeit far more controlled).
Let's say that oh, 150K Californians and associated gruops move up there by 1859.
150K people who are flaming, psychotic abolitionists and race equalists by downtime standards. They also believe in equal rights for women, and oh, any number of other horrifying things.
If the US makes Oregon a state, they have a band of radicals with congressional seats and representation that will keep growing, because these people are backed by CA tech, founding a new state that is really attractive to people.
Now, they could declare that these liberals aren't Americans, having come from CA and thus are intruders on American soil and order them out.
But that's... not going to go well, because by 1859, CA is going to have most of its affairs' in order and still be the most powerful political, military and economic force on the planet. Unless complete lunatics are in DC, they'll know that a fight is just a no go.
They could punt. Keep it a territory--but that territory is just going to get bigger, more powerful, and more loyal to CA.
Or they could sell it to CA, for money or tech assistance.
The thing is, the only option the US government has is the ones California offers them.
- Location
- California
I think you'd have two different levels. For one thing, a lot of what modern medical schools teach can't be used by the downtime people--knowing how to read or use an MRI doesn't help if there aren't any MRI's.
So I think you'll have two basic layers.
The first one will be limited--and it's pretty much what you expect from a modern medical school. It's not just set up to teach doctors, but likely to also provide the training those doctors would need to set up schools back home.
The second is likely to be much faster, more like a community college, designed to provide basic trainig. remember compared to what you get in the 1800s, this is likely to be "oh holy shit" levels of training, but it'd be focused on providing end services to the needy, likely without too much in the way of dependence on advanced technology.
Think of it as an updated and CA version of the Barefoot Doctors.
The importance of understanding that the US isn't the technological titan CA remembers really cannot be overstated. The era of science immigraiton is just starting, and well, I don't think they're going to be going to America at this point. Every bright fellow is going to want to head to CA, land of miracles, and learn what they can to return to their homes--or just become rich.
The South would be more important for a bunch of very logical reasons.
1. Most Americans think south when they think slavery.. that's just a fact.
2. In California, there are millions of pure ro mixed-race African Americans. Millions of voters. At this point, the vast majority of them would have living ancestors working as slaves. Politically, culturally, and demographically, far more Californians have an immediate reason to be focused on the South.
3. The South is all about slavery. Yes, you have Peons in Mexico and slave raids among various tribes, but the south, by teh 1850s, has oriented it's whole culture around the defense and promotion of slavery. Morally, they're odious, pragmatically, they're not going to be a good neighbor.
4. We know from the OTL, that the south didn't give up slavery willingly, plunged the continent into its worst war in history, and then, before the bodies were cold, started engaging in internal resistance and terrorism until they regained control, and it wasn't until over a century later that the civil rights revolution sort of undid that damage. But the US was still unfucking what the south had fucked all the way up until the event.
5. Last--the South is loud and proud about it. In the OTL, they went out of their way to throw it up in the union's face, complete to enforcing the greatest intrusion (up until the Civil war) on states rights on every state, and they were pretty damned arrogant about it. I doubt they'd be any different with CA.
All those add up to a CA that is going to be hostile to all forms of slavery, but is going to see Southern slavery as their primary ideological and political threat.
Edit: which makes one wonder how hostile the South will be to any attempts at transcontinental railroads.
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- Location
- Rotting in port
The Californian uptime Mexicans might be just as motivated on ending the peonage in Mexico as the Whites are against the South's slavery. Then again, since Mexico is friendly with Cali and wants to court them into moving and helping to uplift the country they have better leverage to implement such impacting political changes in a more or less peaceful manner.
- Location
- Philippines
I mean, anyway to prevent being becoming a problematic nation with drug cartels, mass shootings, and a relatively corrupt government would be a step up on their book and if it means having to follow California's guidelines during their effort of modernization, so be it.
Or it will become completely broken apart as Santa Anna fights for power, now having information on every single political enemy, and an obedient enough government to try kill them all off. And the same opportunity goes to his opposition.
Ambition and opportunism backed by hindsight,are a strong factor in whatever anyone there does.
Bingo. It is going to be vastly less difficult to promote Anti-Peonage bills in DF than it would be to get DC at this point to throw the book at the Particular Institution. I will not pretend that various Hacendados will not take umbrage but the reform parties have more leverage with the 'would you rather deal with the yanquis' card.
And unless they are on the functional borderlands where dealing with DC is an option, the various Amerindians have even fewer options than to play ball with Sacramento by making nice with the neighbors that will.
IIRC, the timing is such that he is already out of power and likely to be pensioned off somewhere.
- Location
- Philippines
The La Reforma would likely become more radical though, hopefully without causing the civil war that happened in otl.
He's in Exile actually as Cali makes its transition, but a few years later he would be invited back to become president again. His personal image and prestige shouldn't be underestimated.
His supporters can use him ,and the reforms his opposition wanted to use, including returning church confiscated holdings as a means of creating immense tension between parties.
Enough to trigger a home war.
Edit.
Mexico in that time is unstable, regardless of who holds the reins.
Bridging a gap in economy and political views for a country of that size is just not possible without some serious shaking.
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- Location
- Rotting in port
That's why I said that maybe it could be done in a "more or less peaceful manner."
The Hacendados won't take it easily, but if the central government has enough support from uptimers it should be able to remove their ability to gather actual force before defanging them socially.
Otherwise, the uptimer Mexicans are fully aware of how corrupt the nation would become if allowed to proceed under the current feudal status quo, will be very vocal about it, have all that uptimer experience in managing a propaganda campaign... and there was a good reason why the communists had such an easy time in third world nations.
If it comes to civil war they shouldn't be too adverse to turn a blind eye to some "French Revolution" (i.e. it was absolutely not our idea, wouldn't a pole and a piece of wall do the job well enough, this is utterly barbaric wink wink) measures on their pseudo-nobility, and they'd make sure the land owners were made fully aware of this. Facing them with the spectre of Mme. la Guillotine immigrating to Mexico should make them more amenable to political changes.
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Deathstroke
Fixing the reality again...
Forget about returning to thier homes, a good number of the downtime medical students, especially ones from the Anglosphere, are intelligent enough to realize that Cali is advanced enough to double thier average life expectancy. The life expectancy for 1850s citizens were in low 30s!
It would be one of reasons that some downtime students would change thier minds and stay at California and its territories after graduation. Just like students from Africa and Asia during pre-Event often go for a path of green card after graduation in order to remain in the US or Canada, and in this situation, the California would seem a paradise to them once they spend time there and adapt to modern society.
- Location
- DC area
That life expectancy was primarily due to childhood mortality. Take a hundred twenty-year-olds in 1855, and a hundred in 2015, and the average life expectancy isn't really going to be that different.
- Location
- The Old Dominion
Yes a critical thing when looking at life expediencies of the past be it the 19th century, the middle ages or ancient times, those is those low life expectancy numbers include child and infant deaths as well as deaths in or after childbirth which mess with the numbers a lot because a lot of people died in childbirth, as infants or before they ever even reached two years of age.
Yeah, but that's the big problem.
"With Cali's support" translates to "Outside meddling of California -WHO IS A COUNTRY- in internal affairs of another country"
Also the issue of "moving wealthy people and land owners from power".
This is all the trigger sentences you need to turn away every other downtime state against you.
Cali can either keep its "Shining city on a hill" status to slowly do things and change the world, or lose it and trudge through global diplomacy like every other country. With all the consequences.
- Location
- California
And? That's how things are done in the 18th century. The powerful do what they will to the weak. It won't turn downtime states against California, because California is simply behaving like they do. The idea that there's some "magic bar" against interfering in your directly, have a border with you, neighbors, in order to have a friendly neighbor would be met with peals of laughter.
California can't not meddle. The very first time a group of conservative land owners get a history book and start going on a murder spree against everyone in La Reforma, or La Reforma gets some books on mass political movements, California has intervened. California can either refuse to do anything to shape the outcome, which very likely ends up with Santa Ana in power, only know he's cribbing from how uptime dictatorships did things, or La Reforma managing to take him and the land owners down, only they're also cribbing from uptime notes of how Mao say, dealt with domestic opposition, or they can try to shape it themselves.
So maintaining the "shining city on the hill" has a very good possibility of ending up with Stalinist Mexico or Nazi Mexico, because nobody is going to be fighting with 19th century dogmas--they'll get all those books and leapfrog to the 20th century. Wait five years and you'll find that the landlords are policing their debt peons with repeating, smokeless powder rifles bought from Britain, while La Reforma is (if it's survived), equipped with AK-47 knock offs from friendly Mexican Americans in California. And no matter who wins, they'll hate the people who decided it was more important to keep their hands clean then to help.
- Location
- Rotting in port
What Fabius said. Also, I was speaking of the uptimer Mexicans (including second and third generations), who were being actively courted by the Mexican government to move South and help uplift the nation. At no point did I even mention California in the post.
That these uptimer Mexicans could, and likely would, request assistance from California if the situation started going out of control doesn't mean that the Californian government is actively meddling.
Cali has plenty on its plate already, but in such circumstances they would have to intervene if only because a civil war or a failed state on their Southern border would be even more dangerous.
That these uptimer Mexicans could, and likely would, request assistance from California if the situation started going out of control doesn't mean that the Californian government is actively meddling.
Cali has plenty on its plate already, but in such circumstances they would have to intervene if only because a civil war or a failed state on their Southern border would be even more dangerous.
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- Location
- California
Also, note that if you're entering a formal relationship with another nation, it isn't interference to say: yeah, we have some requirements.
Hell, take a look at the Copenhagen Criteria. Now a defensive and economic relationship probably won't require the same degree of concern, but it's not out of line to say: Yeah, we're the most powerful nation in the world, and we'd like a few concessions on human rights, especially when they are, compared to what OTL America demanded, extraordinarily minor ones.
And as ocean sailor says--what happens when some of the uptimer Mexicans, who were brought in to uplift mexico, start putting pressure on the central government to outlaw the practice, or start poaching peasants?
It's also important to note that debt peonage got worse after independence, so it's still a work in progress in 1850, which is there's more room for some to oppose it, and others to adopt--even among the Hacienda's it's likely you would see some agreeing to give up or modify their relationship with the debt peons, in return for greater access to CA tech and assistance.
Hell, take a look at the Copenhagen Criteria. Now a defensive and economic relationship probably won't require the same degree of concern, but it's not out of line to say: Yeah, we're the most powerful nation in the world, and we'd like a few concessions on human rights, especially when they are, compared to what OTL America demanded, extraordinarily minor ones.
And as ocean sailor says--what happens when some of the uptimer Mexicans, who were brought in to uplift mexico, start putting pressure on the central government to outlaw the practice, or start poaching peasants?
It's also important to note that debt peonage got worse after independence, so it's still a work in progress in 1850, which is there's more room for some to oppose it, and others to adopt--even among the Hacienda's it's likely you would see some agreeing to give up or modify their relationship with the debt peons, in return for greater access to CA tech and assistance.
- Location
- Rotting in port
Indeed, you catch more bees with honey than with vinegar.
While there would be some landlords who'd refuse any curtailing of their "rights" out of principle, most would accept the change of status quo if offered access to productivity-enhancing and labour saving technologies (and people trained in their use) such as pesticides and tractors. This would not only limit any losses from the abolition of peonage but probably even increase their profits - and open the Cali markets to them, which is as important if not more than simply increasing productivity lest the excessive offer causes the prices to fall (which they will anyway, at least somewhat).
I imagine that whomever chooses to be cantankerous against progress will soon be going the way of the dodo as good dinosaurs should, or be put down like rabid dogs when they try to reverse their failing profitability by force.
While there would be some landlords who'd refuse any curtailing of their "rights" out of principle, most would accept the change of status quo if offered access to productivity-enhancing and labour saving technologies (and people trained in their use) such as pesticides and tractors. This would not only limit any losses from the abolition of peonage but probably even increase their profits - and open the Cali markets to them, which is as important if not more than simply increasing productivity lest the excessive offer causes the prices to fall (which they will anyway, at least somewhat).
I imagine that whomever chooses to be cantankerous against progress will soon be going the way of the dodo as good dinosaurs should, or be put down like rabid dogs when they try to reverse their failing profitability by force.
As mentioned, there is not that much of a life-expectancy boost aside from much less of a disease environment. However a lot of students (especially those from 'certain backgrounds') would be rather tempted to stay.
Which is why heavy use of carrots and being up-front about formal treaty provisions would have to be a given. And even then use of lobbyists/propaganda is the probable go-to step.
- Location
- Rotting in port
As part of the USA, California needed permission from Washington to as much as arrange for emergency food imports right after the transition; now, having more or less assured food safety and declared independence, they are free to negotiate treaties as they like. They could for instance limit imports from Mexico to certified peon-free suppliers, limit technological sales and other forms of support until Mexico enacts basic human rights legislation, etc.
They not only don't need to do anything on the internal front, it could even be counterproductive since the uptime Mexicans themselves will be politically active.
In this I don't mean just those with college education, almost every uptime rural worker that moves South will also be a vector disseminating modern values, down to that former gang members (of which I believe there would be plenty, with the collapse of their drug networks and radical societal changes, and many even have military training) would be appalled at the landowners' complete disregard for basic dignity - even pre-event sweatshops wouldn't compare. If anything, the former criminals would have to be convinced not to start hunting down planters and setting themselves as local feudal protectors.
Lobbying and propaganda from the Calis would be unnecessary when the uptime Mexicans themselves would be pressuring the government and conducting outright agitprop and psyops on the peasants and the landowners, respectively.
- Location
- The Old Dominion
From what t I recall during the Potato famine various US states like South Carolina and Pennsylvania(which were also the two US states providing the most aid) as well as native tribes under US control and private groups provided aid to Ireland all without the authority and official permission of the US government with no problem from the US government of the time.
Deathstroke
Fixing the reality again...
California has a workaround to the beef shortage issues as they have Impossible Foods headquarters and thier own plants which are based in Cali. Their production capability is enough to supply the most of US's national restaurant chains like McDonald, White Castle, Burger, and more. I figure that Californians would be happy to accept Impossible Foods' plant-based beef products as an alternative to real beef... well except steak. Coming up with an alternative to steak is a tall order.
Impossible Foods are currently work on plant-based 'chicken' and 'pork' products as a part of thier strategy to catch up with thier main rival, Beyond Meat who are already making a headway into two areas.
Beyond Meat is based in California's Los Angeles area as well.
Impossible Foods are currently work on plant-based 'chicken' and 'pork' products as a part of thier strategy to catch up with thier main rival, Beyond Meat who are already making a headway into two areas.
Beyond Meat is based in California's Los Angeles area as well.
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