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A Golden Island To The West — California ISOT from 2018 to 1850

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kaazmiz said:
Or use a Chrysanthemum flower as a symbol, as its meaning as a gift is of friendship, support and enduring life.
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Unfortunately for our purposes the Chrysanthemum Throne is the royal seat of Japan, meaning that it shouldn't be used for the strictly neutral Red Something.

Perhaps an ouroboros? It's one of the oldest symbols of renewal that exist; it's also a snake, so it has the snake's medical associations too. Bit of a mouthful though. Maybe a circle? I can't recall any religions or countries using a circle as a symbol so it should be okay on that front, plus it's immediately obvious and recognizable.
 
kaazmiz said:
A round smiley face with a syringe then?
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Caprica12 said:
That may be the unofficial uptimer symbol. Or a meme.
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Or a stethoscope. I know that's more ubiquitous with 'medical care' for uptimers, but it would likely catch on quickly, especially as doctors/prospective doctors start applying to attend CA medical schools.

Which. Holy shit, the amount of student visa applications I just realised the CA government is going to have to sort through...
 
Teaching students is one of many "exports" a country can do. Though something like medical studies... I have no idea how many of them Cali's universities could welcome, while still catering to their own needs.
 
kaazmiz said:
Teaching students is one of many "exports" a country can do. Though something like medical studies... I have no idea how many of them Cali's universities could welcome, while still catering to their own needs.
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Well, there are going to be far fewer US applicants than previous years. To say nothing of 'developing world' applications, as I don't think India or China quite have the infrastructure at this time to support sending tons of applications, let alone students, to CA. On the other hand, I imagine a lot of downtimer doctors may apply to learn (though unfortunately not all -- the amount of resistance germ theory is likely to face, let alone the idea of comprehensive sanitation measures...)
 
Marlowe310811 said:
Well, there are going to be far fewer US applicants than previous years. To say nothing of 'developing world' applications, as I don't think India or China quite have the infrastructure at this time to support sending tons of applications, let alone students, to CA. On the other hand, I imagine a lot of downtimer doctors may apply to learn (though unfortunately not all -- the amount of resistance germ theory is likely to face, let alone the idea of comprehensive sanitation measures...)
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Would Japan be a possible candidate? They do have a history of importing western knowledge and if I read the previous chapters correctly, the shogunate ban on leaving and entering Japan had been relaxed.

There is also the consideration that the various Japanese domains might privately send people to cali in order to gain an advantage domestically...

EDIT, an example of the domains sending people west independently OTL would be the Choshu five
 
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Marlowe310811 said:
the amount of resistance germ theory is likely to face, let alone the idea of comprehensive sanitation measures...
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Very little, I'd suspect. While there might be resistance to Cali's progressive politics, in matters of science whatever they say is likely go be accepted at face value. After all, they do manage to have cities inhabited by several millions without suffering rampant epidemics, and smallpox was extinct in their timeline.

Sure, there will be some resistance, but that'll come mainly from holdouts who refuse to believe that the Earth is indeed round. For the most part I believe that people will find rumours and unsubstantiated news such as 'Cali put a constellation of tiny moons around the planet to guide mariners' outlandish but at least ponder on their credibility before maybe dismissing them; however if the Calis themselves actually come out with an information campaign people would likely pay attention.
 
It was not until 1870s, the modern American medical education system started to emerge with Johns Hopkins Medical School being the model by which all other medical schools were measured. The downtime medical students would even realize this as they will discover that the Cali's medical education will offer a lot more of education and unmatched quality of instruction, far beyond what the downtime schools could dream providing even if you're very wealthy.

Before that, all medical schools in 1850s were entirely proprietary which relied on apprenticeship traditions, but the quality of instruction was very atrocious even compared to 20th century. The only requirement of graduation was your ability to pay the fees!

From: Medical Education | Encyclopedia.com

Though the first schools were created with lofty ambitions, the quality of instruction at the proprietary schools rapidly deteriorated, even based on the standards of the day. Entrance requirements were nonexistent other than the ability to pay the fees. Disciplinary problems arising from outrageous student behavior were commonplace. The standard course of instruction in the mid-nineteenth century consisted of two four-month terms of lectures during the winter, with the second term identical to the first. The curriculum generally consisted of seven courses: anatomy; physiology and pathology; materia medica, therapeutics, and pharmacy; chemistry and medical jurisprudence; theory and practice of medicine; principles and practice of surgery; and obstetrics and the diseases of women and children. Instruction was wholly didactic: seven or eight hours of lectures a day, supplemented by textbook reading. Laboratory work was sparse, and even in the clinical subjects, no opportunity to work with patients was provided. Examinations were brief and superficial; virtually the only requirement for graduation was the ability to pay the fees. Students who wished a rigorous medical education had to supplement what they learned in medical school in other ways, such as through enrollment at non-degree-granting extramural private schools, study in Europe, or work in hospitals as "house pupils."
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I've been wondering how this TL would be different if a California from a dystopian world were ISOTed back to 1850 instead. The Republic of California from Rumsfeldia, California from the Anglo/American Nazi War universe, etc.

In the case of those two California would probably consider it a moral imperative to invade and occupy the South.
 
AYC said:
I've been wondering how this TL would be different if a California from a dystopian world were ISOTed back to 1850 instead. The Republic of California from Rumsfeldia, California from the Anglo/American Nazi War universe, etc.

In the case of those two California would probably consider it a moral imperative to invade and occupy the South.
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If it were the CA from Rumsfeldia they'd likely consider it an imperative morally (and in terms of long-term global survival) to smother the far-right in the crib, religious & economic extremism alike. Good Lord, tha CA from Rumsfeldia could get ISOTed into this CA's place in 2018 and find that situation utopian by comparison
 
I found 1853 map, and I used the Photoshop to put highly visible dots of the settlements /towns/forts in the West. They were founded before the Event.

One downtime town/settlement existed when Cali created the Jefferson County. I presume that Port Oxford got annexed by Cali and got upgraded to a reasonable modern standard.

 
Deathstroke said:
I presume that Port Oxford got annexed by Cali and got upgraded to a reasonable modern standard.
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One state cannot take land of another no? And if Cali does secede, than those westernmost states remain part of USA.

Edit. I'm not entirely sure about the timing, but there were supposed to be some small trade posts made by Russians on the west coast too. Albeit, usually seasonal in nature.
 
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kaazmiz said:
One state cannot take land of another no? And if Cali does secede, than those westernmost states remain part of USA.

Edit. I'm not entirely sure about the timing, but there were supposed to be some small trade posts made by Russians on the west coast too. Albeit, usually seasonal in nature.
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Oregon isn't a state quite yet (IRL became a state 1859). And also, that isn't quite so clear cut as there have been border disputes and such in the past.
 
kaazmiz said:
One state cannot take land of another no? And if Cali does secede, than those westernmost states remain part of USA.

Edit. I'm not entirely sure about the timing, but there were supposed to be some small trade posts made by Russians on the west coast too. Albeit, usually seasonal in nature.
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Also, who's to say that land belongs to Washington? I would say the natives that already live in the area have a greater say. And with a powerful ally, they could take back all that land.
 
From what I recall though the northwest native tribes in the US and british northwest were slavers and not just slavers but slavers that apparently actively conducted slave raids as far south as downtime California. Not exactly the best allies to have if you are putting forth how opposed to slavery you are.
 
kaazmiz said:
One state cannot take land of another no? And if Cali does secede, than those westernmost states remain part of USA.

Edit. I'm not entirely sure about the timing, but there were supposed to be some small trade posts made by Russians on the west coast too. Albeit, usually seasonal in nature.
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Formal annexxation plans aforethought? Maybe not barring alliance/protectorate links with the natives DC tries to ignore.

That said, CA is far closer to and is a far more important in every possible way for any white settlements than whoever is running things on the other side of the continental divide. Subtle hints from the latter will take priority over edicts from the former where there is conflict.

Alane1 said:
From what I recall though the northwest native tribes in the US and british northwest were slavers and not just slavers but slavers that apparently actively conducted slave raids as far south as downtime California. Not exactly the best allies to have if you are putting forth how opposed to slavery you are.
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*sigh* :rolleyes2:

Does anyone here even imagine a WATO where inter-tribal aggression and Mexican peonage get a pass? Seriously?
 
htgriffin said:
Perhaps so, but there is a difference between 'Something Sacramento is trying to quash' and 'Something Sacramento ignores out of hypocritical Anti-Southron bias'.
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I dont see them ignoring it. I can see them allowing it out of ignorance, though. Or, maybe, some sort of transition period clause in the WATO tready meant to allow for a more organised deconstruction of those systems.
 
Crazael said:
I dont see them ignoring it. I can see them allowing it out of ignorance, though. Or, maybe, some sort of transition period clause in the WATO tready meant to allow for a more organised deconstruction of those systems.
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Sure, but that's...

The argument at hand isn't really about the practices of slavery among Native Americans in the northwest, or slavery in Utah or indentured servitude/peonage in Mexico, etc. These things aren't being brought up as historical issues that need to be confronted in an in-universe context[1], they're used as zingers to "demonstrate" the hypocrisy of the Californians (or more accurately, the people in the thread) who're champing at the bit to polish off American chattel slavery. This whole argument is a series of whataboutisms with the punchline of "y u bully South?" And honestly it's getting a little tiresome.

There. I said it.


[1] If they are brought up, I expect Instant Sunrise and their crew on the Discord will handle it as well as they usually do.
 
Marlowe310811 said:
Good Lord, tha CA from Rumsfeldia could get ISOTed into this CA's place in 2018 and find that situation utopian by comparison
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Wrong. The Rums!California would go hyper paranoid. They would be re-witnessing the Gumbo back story to Rumsfeldia.

AYC said:
California from the Anglo/American Nazi War universe, etc.
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Sure. If you want them to instantly, and without asking any questions, nuke central Europe till anything is dead from either vaporization or fallout? Sure. I live there but if it makes you happy?
Really. FUCK. THE. AANW and it's author's fanboyism for the excessive militarism and jingoism of the War-on-Terror years.
 
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A picture I regret I cannot draw and regret all the more that I cannot draw in the manner of mid-19th century illustrations:

A woman of means racing onto a train/bus in order to attend a theater showing in her fancy dress... one far wider and more rigid than recommended.

Some are scowling at their watches. Others are glaring quite openly at her. At least one downtimer in a sensible walking skirt is visibly mortified by association, and then there is the one visibly pulling bolt cutters out of a shopping bag from Lowes (ETA: Yes, all are women).
 
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I can see Cali feminists ranting about corsets and criolines being the patriarchal mindset limiting even women's bodies so they can't so much as breathe, bend, sit, or move fast, and comparing them to genital mutilation and Chinese feet binding.

I guess that ITTL they might be going out of fashion sooner than OTL.
 
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Ocean Sailor said:
I can see Cali feminists ranting about corsets and criolines being the patriarchal mindset limiting even women's bodies so they can't so much as breathe, bend, sit, or move fast, and comparing them to genital mutilation and Chinese feet binding.

I guess that ITTL they might be going out of fashion sooner than OTL.
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Few would be willing to call such fashions as bad as FGM, but it is a given that the Rational Dress Movement will have a lot of cheerleaders and anyone trotting out the "at least it is not like Those Heathen Things" excuses will not be taken seriously at all.
 
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