A Golden Island To The West — California ISOT from 2018 to 1850

You know, that bit bothers me. How the hell are these people getting to California? Like, no amount of money would be worth the length of that journey or the hassle.
Remember that there are regularly scheduled flights between Camp Springs and California, which has drastically shorted the time it takes to get to California and brought down the cost compared to downtime methods.
 
Remember that there are regularly scheduled flights between Camp Springs and California, which has drastically shorted the time it takes to get to California and brought down the cost compared to downtime methods.

I'd love to see the interview at the LAPD.

"You...Flew here. Faster and higher than anyone had ever gone before. You landed in a city so big that on a horse, you could literally spend days crossing it. You saw the most common people walking around with devices that allowed them to talk to anyone else in the city. Doors that opened by themselves, more people than you've ever seen in any city in America.
And you... Thought just snatching someone off the street would be a good idea? That was your plan?"
 
Remember that there are regularly scheduled flights between Camp Springs and California, which has drastically shorted the time it takes to get to California and brought down the cost compared to downtime methods.
Regularly scheduled small plane flights. So no one at the gate is doing any sort of basic checks on a person? And how do they expect to get back even?

I'd love to see the interview at the LAPD.

"You...Flew here. Faster and higher than anyone had ever gone before. You landed in a city so big that on a horse, you could literally spend days crossing it. You saw the most common people walking around with devices that allowed them to talk to anyone else in the city. Doors that opened by themselves, more people than you've ever seen in any city in America.
And you... Thought just snatching someone off the street would be a good idea? That was your plan?"
This too. This really feels like it is falling into that pit of Every Bad Guy is Evil And Stupid And Dumb And Smells Funny And Etc...
At this rate, I have expect the Civil War to end in a day, as every Confederate soldier accidentally shoots themselves in the face.
 
Yeah that does bother me a bit well given it would take a number of months of hard travel across harsh terrain and mountains to get to California by land and that is if they plan their journey to avoid being caught by a early snow in the Rockies or it might take even longer if they are forced to wait for winter and it would be even longer by sea and that is just to get to California.

Remember that there are regularly scheduled flights between Camp Springs and California, which has drastically shorted the time it takes to get to California and brought down the cost compared to downtime methods.

Yeah but these are people who'd likely know after the first few failed attempts that plane travel likely isn't going to be a safe method for them and they are far less more likely to have far quicker success going after targets in the downtime united states than California which means they would more actually get paid and actually make a profit.

Slave, peon and servant hunters were doing such things because they made money doing so and its honestly hard to think how even the stupider ones would think they would make money going after such hard to get targets when there were much easier picking closer to home.
 
To be fair, Serra2, there have been honestly to god examples of people being just that stupid. Because the alternative can be to admit that the very ideas you base your entire life on are both false and doomed to extinction.

Edit: I mean, this guy could have been the one really dumb one, but it won't matter because he'd be the one everyone would talk about.
 
Regularly scheduled small plane flights. So no one at the gate is doing any sort of basic checks on a person? And how do they expect to get back even?
The security screening is focused on weapons brought aboard the cabin in a continuation of the post-9/11 style security screening.

What there's a good number of people advocating is for California Airlines to do a background screening system like uptime El Al uses, however this is considered to take up too much time.

Circumstances can always change though.
 
The security screening is focused on weapons brought aboard the cabin in a continuation of the post-9/11 style security screening.

What there's a good number of people advocating is for California Airlines to do a background screening system like uptime El Al uses, however this is considered to take up too much time.

Circumstances can always change though.
Also probably prohibitive in terms of material to do a background screening with. Background checks like El Al- or even uptime employers and government agencies - relies on uptime recordkeeping and communication to work - a background check on a non-historically-recorded downtimer is much less feasible than on an uptimer with a well-tracked paper trail.
 
How are these slave hunters affording flights anyway? That's what, 200 odd years worth of inflation to contend with?

You're not going to be able to get a flight for the price of an 1800s stagecoach trip using downtime American dollars.

Seems more likely to me that any downtimer on those flights are there by invitation or extreme discounts as personal favors rather than actually being able to afford the actual ticket.
 
Last edited:
How are these slave hunters affording flights anyway? That's what, 200 odd years worth of inflation to contend with?

You're not going to be able to get a flight for the price of an 1800s stagecoach trip using downtime American dollars.

Seems more likely to me that any downtimer on those flights are there by invitation or extreme discounts as personal favors rather than actually being able to afford the actual ticket.

Assuming that California-US trade is going on, there's almost certainly some sort of forex between USD and Future USD going on that adjusts for inflation. Given that California knows what the historical rate of inflation roughly was, it wouldn't be too hard to set an initial number and see how things diverge from there.
 
Also the most common and trusted currency during this time were coins which in the US which ranged from double eagles($20), Eagles($10), half eagles($5) and quarter eagles($2.50) made from 90 percent pure gold, half dimes(.5), dimes(.10), quarters,(.25) half dollars(.50) and dollars($1) made from ninety percent pure silver and the half cent and cent made from pure copper.
 
I am pretty certain most slave catchers this stubborn would prefer to come in via boat.

I'd love to see the interview at the LAPD.

"You...Flew here. Faster and higher than anyone had ever gone before. You landed in a city so big that on a horse, you could literally spend days crossing it. You saw the most common people walking around with devices that allowed them to talk to anyone else in the city. Doors that opened by themselves, more people than you've ever seen in any city in America.
And you... Thought just snatching someone off the street would be a good idea? That was your plan?"
More to the point, like I said earlier, the smart ones are the ones that give up the chase at Camp Springs or once the runaway is traced to a 'steamer' that made it out of port.

Getting to CA means a lot of ideology at work even if a particular runaway rather than someone to kidnap and pass off as one is the target.
 
Something I've been wondering- what is downtimers reaction to social media?
 
I'd love to see the interview at the LAPD.

"You...Flew here. Faster and higher than anyone had ever gone before. You landed in a city so big that on a horse, you could literally spend days crossing it. You saw the most common people walking around with devices that allowed them to talk to anyone else in the city. Doors that opened by themselves, more people than you've ever seen in any city in America.
And you... Thought just snatching someone off the street would be a good idea? That was your plan?"

The slave catcher would have a really bad day if they put him into one of holding cells full of the gangbangers or criminals with a lengthy record before the interrogation.

EDITED

It get progressively worse when the California Bureau of Investigation get involved even if it's an attempted kidnapping, they will interrogate him thoroughly to determine if he have any support from uptimer alt-righters or white supremacists and who in the downtime US hired him to catch a fugitive. They have highly persuasive methods to make him talk, thus unintentionally helping them on thier ant-slave catching efforts.

The Camp Spring's airport would have high resolution cameras aimed at the gates, which could be used to a biometric database of slave catchers and downtimers. They could make the detained slave catcher to pick up faces even unidentified slave catchers among the face recognition database, and once identified they could prevent slave catchers who haven't traveled to the CA before enter the airport.
 
Last edited:
Also the most common and trusted currency during this time were coins which in the US which ranged from double eagles($20), Eagles($10), half eagles($5) and quarter eagles($2.50) made from 90 percent pure gold, half dimes(.5), dimes(.10), quarters,(.25) half dollars(.50) and dollars($1) made from ninety percent pure silver and the half cent and cent made from pure copper.
Checking, at uptime gold prices, that's over $1400 for the 0.9675 ounces of gold in a double eagle - a 70,000% inflation rate, as compared to about a 30,000% nominal inflation rate in the same time.

Exciting times to be an economist!
 
Checking, at uptime gold prices, that's over $1400 for the 0.9675 ounces of gold in a double eagle - a 70,000% inflation rate, as compared to about a 30,000% nominal inflation rate in the same time.

Exciting times to be an economist!
Of course, with most of the former uptime economy vanished, it's hard to predict what's actually going to happen to the price of gold in the future, with the downtime economy having less supply of everything on the one hand but also a substantially lower value of gold relative to either silver (16:1 or so, compared to about 70:1 at the time of the event) or any other asset.

Combine that with all of California's mineral resources being restored by the event, and due to the initially high price it being the most likely form in which people try to do currency exchange in the short term, I'd expect the price of gold in the California market to drop rather quickly.
 
Also on top of the existing mines in the west and east new primary and secondary sources of silver, gold and copper that weren't known to be there in the 1850 along with other metals and minerals would be revealed by up time knowledge which likely wouldn't be hard for people to get their hands on so, odds are there some people already have in the few years since the transition who planning to exploit said information.
 
Regularly scheduled small plane flights. So no one at the gate is doing any sort of basic checks on a person? And how do they expect to get back even?
It's quite likely that catchers take a boat from CSA to Mexico, wagon across to the Pacific, and then take a boat up to California.
The road back would likely be in reverse. All in it could take 2-3 weeks for a lightly packed traveler, both ways.

OTL Mexico did not have a railroad till 1870~
 
Also on top of the existing mines in the west and east new primary and secondary sources of silver, gold and copper that weren't known to be there in the 1850 along with other metals and minerals would be revealed by up time knowledge which likely wouldn't be hard for people to get their hands on so, odds are there some people already have in the few years since the transition who planning to exploit said information.

the Comstock load has yet to be discovered. Not to mention, modern CA mining techniques will retrieve far more gold and silver than they got in the OTL.
Historically in fact, the biggest "gold rush" was actually the period after the development of processes like Gold Cyanidation which allowed a vast amount of previously unrecoverable gold and silver to be profitably extracted from tailings mounds.
 
Yeah there is likely going to be a mining booms on both halves of the continent between the newly known deposits and being able to better use the old mines and materials coming out of them.
 
It's quite likely that catchers take a boat from CSA to Mexico, wagon across to the Pacific, and then take a boat up to California.
The road back would likely be in reverse. All in it could take 2-3 weeks for a lightly packed traveler, both ways.

OTL Mexico did not have a railroad till 1870~

Problem is, that's a lot of effort, especially when you consider the danger, and difficulty of getting someone back through territory that is very hostile to slavers, and this is even ignoring the "by the way, the peole with the magic flying machines don't like you." The only way I could see it happening woudl be an active attempt at PR--see, CA is dangerous to our property.
 
Stop: Stop
stop
So, hello folks. I have some infractions to hand out.

@Fabius Maximus this post is not okay.
You must be a real fan of General Plan Ost.
Confront the argument and do not attack the poster with claims that they like nazi extermination plans, or in fact any personal attacks at all. Your ability to post in the thread has been removed for a week and you have been given 25 points.

Bullets.

What, you expect some high-minded, mealy-mouthed ideal response? Salvers are unworthy of existence, let alone mercy. In real life, the problem with the south is that they were allowed to fester and reorganize after the war, spreading their vile stupidity and hate across the nation and into the halls of power, infecting the US with their vile filth to this very day. The only way to prevent another century of terror and murder at their hands is to break them completely and utterly.

They are not your fellow citizens, they are not your fellow man, they are not even your fellow people. They and all they represent are the enemy.
Dehumanizing people, be they humans, aliens, others or what have you like this is something you know not to do. Your ability to post in the thread has been removed permanently and you have received 50 points.

This is literally the one of most retarded statements I have ever heard on this forum. Just because a powerful country says you can't do something or sets a president doesn't mean some two bit authoritarian country isn't going to blatantly spit in the face of it. Every country of this time is somewhat authoritarian as soon as they have a military advantage over the other they will produce and stockpile it and eventually use it. Even the US of today had shit that it declares illegal just because you don't use it doesn't mean they won't use it. Also the whole letting the natives have their own territories bothers me a bit, mainly because A) it wasn't their land to begin with since most of those natives are more than likely from the east and drove or are driving out the originals and B) this is a problem shown in the weirmar republic you can't take a people with no Republican tradition and force them to form a republic, it just doesn't work. You are setting up a people to be taken advantage of. Plus eventually California's neighbors will advance to the point where technology doesn't guarantee victory at this point I don't see the American continent succeeding, they are dooming the rest of the Americas to basically turn into the South America of our time. Sometimes just staying within your borders is the right thing to do.

Oh and @Mashadarof402 you are ignoring that Afghanistan had a far different culture, a religious motive to resist as well as weapons that allows a single person in an urban environment to destroy valuable armor and material. The America of 1850 barely has decent rifles. A single man can not damage an AFV and a they speak the same language and share a common culture with their would be occupiers.

Idk just some shower thoughts I guess.
The use of retarded as an insult against another user is not acceptable in any way, shape or form. Your ability to post in the thread has been removed for a week and you have been given 25 points.

My point was more that you're assuming that Californian intervention would be unsolicited and/or unwelcome. Depending on who is President and when this (inevitably) happens, it's entirely conceivable that a coalition force would be appealing and indeed sought after by the downtimer Union government. A point of comparison I'd use is 1990s Kuwait: if you're in a nasty fight with an enemy completely dismissive of your humanity and rights, and there's another country out there, with a big damn stick called US VII Corps and the 101st Airborne, with a vested interest in helping you out. Are you going to call them invaders and tell them to get out, or welcome their offered aid with open arms?

Also, I would love to sit in on that 'treason' pre-trial hearing, given how Cass, the South and the downtime Democratic Party at large are operating under the position (and legal fiction) that California is still part of the Union. How, then, could a US government that asked for and received Californian aid, be accused of treason, if California is part of those United States? Any judge not completely bent/bought off is going to have a fun time making pro-slaver lawyers squirm against their own prior arguments. Not to mention that 'treason' has very specific legal grounds (which is why it's rarely used against anyone) and it would be exceptionally rich of Southern (possibly Confederate) lawyers or plantiffs trying to argue that the US government was treasonous in actions taken against them, the actual fucking traitors.

Here's my question, to you and everyone else pooh-poohing the idea of invasion/occupation under whatever conditions/duration necessary:

What else have you got?

I'm not, in fact, giddy or chomping at the bit to murder a couple million people, irredeemable slavers/sympathisers or not, nor do I love the idea of having to either occupy Dixie (likely for decades) or commit de facto war crimes in order to force them to get the picture. I would be happy to take that off the table, if you have anything viable that will end slavery and smother Jim Crow in its cradle without invasion/occupation. But if you don't, then all you're doing is the "but who's gonna pay for it? hehe gotcha!!1!" routine, and to that (besides total derision) I have one question in return: "what price tag, then, do you consider acceptable to liberate 3 million Americans in chains, in life-threatening conditions? Exactly how little effort are you willing to put forward for 3 million of your countrymen & ancestors?"

We're willing to spend all kinds of money and manpower to invade Grenada over 600-some students, or to pull off daring-to-insane capers to rescue 52 Americans from Tehran -- what exactly is different about these Americans?
Moral outrage does not produce a healthy economy nor does it produce disposable soldiers that you can discard and no one will care.

Living in the real world requires that you acknowledge that sometimes you don't have any good options and have to pick the one that sucks least.

Fighting off the US army attempting to force California to bow to it? Easy. Occupying the US, enacting regime change and a program of cultural indoctrination? Much, much harder.

Oh sure, there'll always be populists who promise that it can be done, that it should be done. They never talk about what it'd cost or if it's even feasible. That's how you get the likes of Maduro, Duterte and Trump with all the entirely foreseeable dumpster fire that results.

You'd think people would wise up eventually.

As for what else have I got? Why, the simplest option of all. Economic victory. The slave states tried to expand their practice and force the North to accept it because they were losing economically as the North developed. Their influence would invariably dwindle to the point where they'd be a junior partner in the state. Some saw the writing on the wall, even if they took the stupid option to try and redress it.

So for California, the more pragmatic option would be to simply make chattel slavery so uneconomical, combined with being completely hostile to any attempts to spread it into California's sphere of influence, that the institution will starve over time even as more blacks flee to less slave friendly territories. How would that development take shape? Largely by developing and competing in the markets that allowed plantation owners to live well. Cotton and other crops. Undercut their product and work out exclusivity contracts so that the slavers simply can't find markets to sell their goods. The long term goal would be to ruin the slave states financially and politically, forcing them to pick between reforming into something more palatable and thus being susceptible to Californian influence (investment and the like), or spend what remains in some futile last gasp spate of violence that'll get rebuffed.

It's a very rough plan, but it's certainly more feasible than the regime change idea. And as an added benefit, is actually more helpful to improving California's economic situation.



Grenada's toppling was made easy due to the fact that the then government came to power in a coup after disputing election results, which made it unpopular to say the least. The embassy rescue is also a low cost investment with strictly defined goals and a very short 'lifespan'.

Contrast instead the occupation of Afghanistan, Iraq and older conflicts where the United States was not seen as a legitimate or benevolent force e.g. Vietnam. A Californian occupation of the rest of the continental US would be very much viewed as illegitimate by the population.

And in all of these cases, America still had access to their vast markets and well developed economies. Economies that simply don't exist in this ISOTed California. There's no external markets to sell to (no one can afford it), no existing globalized supply chains of raw to finished goods. Everything they need to sustain a 21st century economy that wasn't there at the time has to now be developed locally from scratch. I mean things were so bad that you had diabetes patients dying from lack of availability of insulin shots, an otherwise cheap and ubiquitous treatment.

Let us also not forget that armies are expensive, and running them even more so. How many tens of millions of dollars does an expeditionary force consume in a single day of occupation? It's not small. Ergo, California doesn't have anywhere near the economic clout OTL America has to sustain invasions and occupations like in the not-so-old days. On the military side, there's also the fact that California alone has nowhere near the numbers of military personnel to actually run the occupation of the rest of the continent, cut off as they are from every other military installation and force that existed in the time that was. It'd be stretched so thin that Rumsfield's 'lean army' going into Iraq would look to be a tyrannid horde by comparison numberwise. And fixing that means a draft. Guess how well that'd go?

Oh, and it also bears mentioning that this is a California that, like OTL, has experienced two invasions and occupations of foreign states they were told were evil, that they would be uplifting and making better by force of arms. That sentiment sure didn't age very well did it?

As for the 'we'? Who is this 'we'? How about instead I look at you.

Are you willing to give up a significant portion of your income and/or die for this fight? To financially support and stay on the front lines for decades against a restive population who views you as an existential threat to them and their way of life?

Are you?

If the answer to any of that is no, why the hell do you think a vast majority of these other Californians would answer differently?

Moral outrage is easy. Doing something about it and eating the cost? Something else entirely.
As for you two @Marlowe310811 and @Mashadarof402 there comes a point in an argument where continuing to get heated about it passes over the point of civility. You both have passed that point. Your abilities to post in the thread has been removed for a week and you have each been given 25 points.

@Fabius Maximus
That is seriously not okay, and borders on a personal attack. I have half a mind to report you for it. Keep it civil.
@SaltyWaffles You can in fact tell someone something they said is not okay and saying they should stop is also most definitely okay. What is not okay is openly threatening to report them. If you feel the need to report them, do so and leave it at that. This is your staff notice for getting too close to Rule 5.

With that all done there are some statements I need to make. I have seen a concerning group of undercurrents related to the dehumanization of slavers. Slavers and what they do is terrible and it makes them terrible people. But they are still people and dehumanization of them as in Highlord's post most explicitly and prominently is not okay. This is a story written on a web forum for entertainment.

And it is written on a web forum whose mission statement is Rule 0. The relevant section is quoted here:
We are enormously proud that Sufficient Velocity has grown into the vibrant and thriving global community that it is today. We intend to continue along the path that we conceived in April of 2014: to make Sufficient Velocity a welcoming, inclusive and open space, which encourages creativity, friendly discussion, and robust and honest debate.

Any user, such as myself or anyone randomly selected should be able to walk into any thread they wish and not be repulsed by reading gross Rule 2 breaking revenge fantasies or other issues.

Now, if one wishes to appeal my decisions one may do so through the Appeals subforum. I would highly suggest reading the procedures we have in place surrounding Appeals, following them is what will get your appeal heard properly and in a timely manner.

Have a great day.
 
Problem is, that's a lot of effort, especially when you consider the danger, and difficulty of getting someone back through territory that is very hostile to slavers, and this is even ignoring the "by the way, the peole with the magic flying machines don't like you." The only way I could see it happening woudl be an active attempt at PR--see, CA is dangerous to our property.
Slavery is illegal in Mexico.

I would to add an important point regarding the downtime relations between the ordinary citizens of US and Mexico: And also Mexican-American War was so recent, the travelers from the downtime US are likely to experience tensions from the Mexican locals as they traveled through the land. Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was supposed to promise U.S. citizenship to all Mexican citizens living in the territory of the Mexican Cession if they choose to become US citizen, and yet Mexicans living in the annexed territories faced a loss of civil and political rights as they were not given full citizenship till 1930!

The Mexicans in the Mexico have already heard how thier own people on the US side were treated despite the fact the treaty was signed years ago. They were aware of it before the Event, and that kind of treatment rubbed them in a wrong way.
 
Last edited:
Slavery is illegal in Mexico.

The problem with this, as in OTL CA, is that slavery is really only STARTING to die off globally, which means if the slave did not escape for a period of time, a web of agreements protected the status provided the owner had the relevant paperwork. Slavery was officially illegal in OTL CA as well (except for the Natives, which were functionally told to bend over and take it until the 1870s state constitutional draft and related Supreme Court cases), but there was a case where a slave rebelled stating "I was brought into California, where slavery is illegal, therefore I am free," the state of Illinois (if I remember correctly), another anti-slave state, said, basically, "Nope, still a slave."

This doesn't even count how someone representing themselves as a bounty hunter could have poster bills stating that their quarry was a fugitive from justice for literally ANY other reason and the Mexicans would likely say "Just another damn American, don't care," assuming they didn't accept a bribe to look the other way. That said, SLAVE hunting, as opposed to fugitive hunting, would be just too much work for the promised pay if it had to be done in UT CA. Fugitive hunters could likely wander into the nearest law enforcement office and get an official escort, if necessary.

Do remember, though, that this is a time period that was relatively infamous for people being a bandit one day, then being sheriff in a different township the next with open borders always an option, so your mileage may vary on the level of protection a given slave hunter gets.
 
I'd love to see the interview at the LAPD.

"You...Flew here. Faster and higher than anyone had ever gone before. You landed in a city so big that on a horse, you could literally spend days crossing it. You saw the most common people walking around with devices that allowed them to talk to anyone else in the city. Doors that opened by themselves, more people than you've ever seen in any city in America.
And you... Thought just snatching someone off the street would be a good idea? That was your plan?"

"And even if you did snatch him off the street, how were you expecting to get him back?
 
Back
Top