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A Golden Island To The West — California ISOT from 2018 to 1850

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I was thinking... there are a few ways the Californian government could gain a major advantage against the pro-slavery senators and congressmen in Washington DC. All they do is could spy on them with 21st century techniques like using laser microphone on thier offices to eavesdropping on thier conversations or make political gifts to these politicians as a diplomatic goodwill but actually carry a hidden listening device.

That way, they could quietly pass information to certain staunch abolitionist politicians in the DC without actually disclosing thier spying methods.

If they are willing to use even more dirtier way... say they could smear these politicians by using professionally done deep fake pictures of them intimately being with another member of same sex (Preferably one of thier backers namely high profile slave owners) and distribute them as posters through out the DC. That might ruin thier reputation among thier peers back home, given the Southern mentality about these issues back in 1850s.
 
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htgriffin said:
Mind you, the severity of the sentence for what boils down to a shootout during a rescue mission is likely to be far less severe than attempted takeovers and/or slaughter of noncombatants.
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That's fine, but the issue remains that while its a "rescue mission" for one side, for the other its theft of property and murder of government officials.
It's really alright from a moral standpoint, but it does make a diplomatic kerfuffle ,and creates a very bad precedence for future relations with everyone.
Cali is trying to be the shining beacon, and guide towards a better future. Showing everyone that you can do whatever you wan't so long as you are the "stronger" state is going to backfire spectacularly the moment they lose their status of superior, or they can't intervene for whatever reason.
 
Fabius Maximus said:
You're having people throw stuff at you or show up at your house so you need a police escort. (fun fact, demonstration on a sidewalk is protected speech).
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Jesus fucking Christ, stop assuming everyone in California is as much 'honor before reason' as you are. Do you really think a substantial number of people are going to want to murder slavers, rather than approach the geopolitical situation carefully so they can free the most slaves?
 
Deathstroke said:
I was thinking... there are a few ways the Californian government could gain a major advantage against the pro-slavery senators and congressmen in Washington DC. All they do is could spy on them with 21st century techniques like using laser microphone on thier offices to eavesdropping on thier conversations or make political gifts to these politicians as a diplomatic goodwill but actually carry a hidden listening device.

That way, they could quietly pass information to certain staunch abolitionist politicians in the DC without actually disclosing thier spying methods.

If they are willing to use even more dirtier way... say they could smear these politicians by using professionally done deep fake pictures of them intimately being with another member of same sex (Preferably one of thier backers namely high profile slave owners) and distribute them as posters through out the DC. That might ruin thier reputation among thier peers back home, given the Southern mentality about these issues back in 1850s.
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You've got an even better possibility. Find politicians with family members who are ill. Cure them. don't put a pricetag on it. Blackmail is good. A guy bouncing his baby daughter on his lap, remembering that she's here because of CA? That's golden.

Now the listening plan has benefits, but it has one major disadvantage--the South wasn't concealing anything. They never did the "of course we don't support X" (we totally support X). Slavery was loud and proud in terms of support and abolitionists were very quiet.

Another route is to start targeting the Middle Class--the South didn't have a big middle class, which is why so many people talk about the "Pine Barrens poor" in the run up to the Civil War. In fact, the South, ignoring the racism, was far more classist then the North. That often gets ignored because of Racism, but the Southern oligarchy was no more interested in sharing power with poor and middle class whites than they were blacks. Pumping money into the middle class, say opening banks in the South (banks backed by CA and under CA laws, so they're less likely to go boom then OTL banks), starts to pull the financial and material power of the planter class away, especially since Planters, being focused on slaves and land, didn't have a lot of liquid wealth, and in fact in many cases tended to be in debt.

Mind you, this is long term, and at some point it requires you to pull the monopoly of force* away from the planter class, but it's a major weakness they have.

*Granted, this is an in for military forces in the South-- have your new middle class hire "Security contractors" to protect them from planter bullyboys. There were more than a few cases in the south where the planter class violently put down attempts to get out from under them. Hard to do if you have a security force standing by the polls that are hired solely for the purpose of protecting the sanctity of the polling station.
 
Mal-3 said:
From the top:
  1. Buying slaves is a mug's game, as in order for it to be effective you have to at least in theory be able to buy every slave, and that will never happen. All this accomplishes is pumping money into the slave economy while perpetuating the system.
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As a note, this is, in the RW a very big point of contention when it comes to campaigners against human trafficking. It has been suggested, and is denounced for the very reason you suggested. There's also the fact that whether or not you intend to free them, purchasing someone would make you complicit in the crime.

THAT BEING SAID. There are a few differences.
1. The South has a limited number of slaves. The slave trade is by and large dead at this point. So, if you purchaes a lot of blacks, you depress the supply, raising the cost and thus lead hopefully to better treatment of the remaining slaves.
This was an explicit goal of the British slave trade abolitionists, that reducing the supply improves treatment.

2. you divide the planter class. As I said, the planter class is money poor. Poorer planters might take the option to sell the slaves, and get out of their money trap. That reduces their numbers, and power.

Now, I don't think it's a good idea. IF you buy slaves, even to free them, you are at some level condoning and participating in slavery. But, the fellow on the other side can make his own argument that this is good on both a short and long-term basis.

I'd also expect that you'd see a fair number of Californians contributing to charities that did this, because there were RL cases of abolitionist groups doing just that.
 
Captain Carrot said:
Jesus fucking Christ, stop assuming everyone in California is as much 'honor before reason' as you are. Do you really think a substantial number of people are going to want to murder slavers, rather than approach the geopolitical situation carefully so they can free the most slaves?
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Short version? YES.
Long version: I don't know if you're genuinely missing the point or being deliberately obtuse, but people don't want to negotiate with slavers. There'll be people like you, sure, who say "I don't want to, but it's the practical & responsible thing to do". But there will be a lot more people who say "They'll be lucky to just catch a bullet. My first instinct is to flog them to death, make my point brutally clear. And there's not a jury in CA that will convict me." These people want slavers/ex-future Klansmen dead, and a life sentence seems like a fair trade, if any DA could find a jury that would convict them.

It doesn't matter what the law says, what practicality says, what realism or geopolitics say. People will do this, unless the state is very clearly taking steps to pre-empt them in their efforts. "You wanna liberate the South? Us, too! Sign up with us and get three hots and a cot for your trouble." Basically anything short of that will see filibusters whether you like them or not.

Also, unless I am drastically misunderstanding the way the thread's being run, the QM has marked Flav's stuff as canon. It's a done deal. It happens in this reality. So, again, unless I am wildly misinterpreting things, the matter seems to be settled. Find a different bone to gnaw on, please? This has been going on for pages and nobody is convincing anyone on the opposing side.
 
Yeah last as of the last chapter there is apparently a boycott the south legislative works but only of the south and so buying from slavers in lets say India, Egypt and the middle east is perfectly fine for California businesses at at the moment likely because its not on peoples mind, the same with the very brutal peonage system in the rest of the southwest and mexico or the active slavery and slave trading of blacks and native Americans going on in Utah.

Still that might change once people start realizing what is going on in their backyard which will likely put the California government in a awkward position in relation to that.
 
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There is another way the Californians would seriously mess up the DC's pro-slavery politicians psychologically and they could simply reveal their actual date of OTL death publicly. Most of them will not able to perform thier duty as elected politicians effectively when thier minds are heavily weighted with thoughts of thier own inevitable death. This psychological warfare tactic might be useful as these politicians would't able to advance the pro-slavery agendas as much as they did in the OTL.

With a quick glance at the representatives for 1855, you could see that a significant number of the politicians from Southern states passed away in one or two decades.

Depression is a hell of drug once it get ahold of you.

Fabius Maximus said:
You've got an even better possibility. Find politicians with family members who are ill. Cure them. don't put a pricetag on it. Blackmail is good. A guy bouncing his baby daughter on his lap, remembering that she's here because of CA? That's golden.
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That would work. The children of the pro-slavery politicians would become susceptible to influence from California once they are flown and stayed to one of CA's top hospitals, and at that age, they will immediately notice that amenities found in a private patient room would be a whole league ahead of typical 19th century mansion. Air conditioning, comfortable adjustable bed, television, colorful children books, and an access to gaming systems. The government could throw in a visit to the Disneyland and Universal Studios Hollywood. They might become more receptive to the California when growing up.

They also could quietly arrange their wives who are accompanying thier sick children or family members to meet carefully selected Californian businesswomen. The downtime women would be utterly shocked that thier counterparts have far more rights and privileges than them, and these Californian businesswomen led thier companies that spanned across the entire globe before the Event. They would feel like a politician's trophy to be paraded around at the parties or meetings when the uptime women were doing much more and achieved accomplishments that would be impossible during pre-Event 1850s and before.
 
Marlowe310811 said:
The CSEA bit is what I meant, and it's in Informational.
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The post you quoted was commenting on Fabius' depiction/arguments about how Californian juries/politics would react to the filibustering in his other piece that's in Apocrypha rather than an argument over information presented in the CSES piece. Amusingly the CSES piece itself contradicts Fabius' claims that no jury would convict for filibustering, as it states that despite popular support for Direct Action the official position is still that filibustering and other forms of outright violence are not the way to go - which wouldn't happen without a significant subgroup that doesn't agree with Direct Action.
 
Deathstroke said:
I was thinking... there are a few ways the Californian government could gain a major advantage against the pro-slavery senators and congressmen in Washington DC. All they do is could spy on them with 21st century techniques like using laser microphone on thier offices to eavesdropping on thier conversations or make political gifts to these politicians as a diplomatic goodwill but actually carry a hidden listening device.

That way, they could quietly pass information to certain staunch abolitionist politicians in the DC without actually disclosing thier spying methods.

If they are willing to use even more dirtier way... say they could smear these politicians by using professionally done deep fake pictures of them intimately being with another member of same sex (Preferably one of thier backers namely high profile slave owners) and distribute them as posters through out the DC. That might ruin thier reputation among thier peers back home, given the Southern mentality about these issues back in 1850s.
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LETS USE HOMOPHOBIA TO DEFEAT RACISM!!-the plan

i like it,lets support it
 
Japan in World War II had 200000 sex slaves, killed 580000 people by germ warfare and human experimentation, and killed from 3-14 million people total.

Yet a large chunk of modern opinion says that bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes and acts of evil by the USA the likes of which are intolerable. And I suspect that this opinion is more common in California.

So I'm not convinced that the death and devastation needed to fight the USA or the Confederates will be tolerated by California either. Yes, it's to save people who are closer to us than the victims of the Imperial Japanese, but it's also an attack on people who are closer to us than the Imperial Japanese.
 
arromdee said:
Yet a large chunk of modern opinion says that bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes and acts of evil by the USA the likes of which are intolerable. And I suspect that this opinion is more common in California.
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It's considered a war crime because it was a deliberate killing of civilians, by deployment of a weapon designed specifically to destroy an entire urban area regardless of its actual strategic or industrial worth.
Even by standards of the time it was a terror bombing, but victors don't get judged.

Please merge the double post.
 
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kaazmiz said:
Please merge the double post.
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It's just two users with similar avatars/usernames, not a double post.

arromdee said:
Japan in World War II had 200000 sex slaves, killed 580000 people by germ warfare and human experimentation, and killed from 3-14 million people total.

Yet a large chunk of modern opinion says that bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes and acts of evil by the USA the likes of which are intolerable. And I suspect that this opinion is more common in California.
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War Crimes are specifically detailed things, and whether some other party committed a war crime or other atrocity has pretty much no bearing on whether a particular action is considered a war crime. No matter how many times your opponent's troops falsely surrender and then keep fighting it's still a war crime to accept their surrender and then execute a bunch of those prisoners of war.
 
arromdee said:
Japan in World War II had 200000 sex slaves, killed 580000 people by germ warfare and human experimentation, and killed from 3-14 million people total.

Yet a large chunk of modern opinion says that bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes and acts of evil by the USA the likes of which are intolerable. And I suspect that this opinion is more common in California.

So I'm not convinced that the death and devastation needed to fight the USA or the Confederates will be tolerated by California either. Yes, it's to save people who are closer to us than the victims of the Imperial Japanese, but it's also an attack on people who are closer to us than the Imperial Japanese.
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@arromdee you sound interested in the historiography of Hiroshima and Nagasaki but having some misconceptions about it.

I wouldn't mind continuing the discussion with you and others in that thread.
 
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Knocking on Heaven’s Gate
  • Sidestory
    • Dropping by to post a [rather disturbing] extra about Heaven's Gate. The site is still maintained by two surviving members IOTL - since the suicides happened near San Diego and they don't identify themselves it's not much of a leap to say they live in CA.

    ---

    The Next Level

    Survivors of California Suicide Cult Speak With Tribune Reporters

    The New York Tribune - July 12, 1852

    Reporters of the Tribune have spoken to two surviving members of a religious cult based in California. This cult, named Heaven's Gate, was founded in 1975 and ended in the ritual suicide of 39 of its members in March of 1997, including the founder, Marshall Applewhite. Californians at the time and at present agree Applewhite likely suffered an illness of the mind, and present day adherents are nonexistent. However, this reporter exchanged correspondence with two surviving members of the cult. The pair identify as husband and wife, though both chose not to give their names. Curiously, the information site used by the group on California's Internet is maintained by them, unchanged in appearance since the 1997 mass suicide (and thus possessing an archaic aesthetic when compared to contemporary sites).

    As with any thoughts of a madman, the ideology of the cult was complex and is not of import. Like any contemporary claiming to be a prophet, Applewhite possessed unrivalled charisma and oratory skills, explaining the number of adherents. It is sufficient to say that he claimed a comet (named Hale-Bopp) passing by Earth during the year of the suicide would take the believers to the "Next Level" on a space-based vehicle. This "Next Level" is distinct from the afterlife of Scripture, with emphasis on the evolution of human beings into pure creatures of space - free of sexual or carnal desires. In extreme commitment to sexual purity, Applewhite and seven other men underwent surgery to become eunuchs.

    Despite the apparent conclusion of this belief system with the deaths of almost all members, first-hand accounts and explanations of it may be obtained by contacting the two survivors, tasked by the departed with remaining behind to educate the world about Heaven's Gate. As the location of the suicide is a home in San Diego, both were in California at the time of the Event and will answer any questions to those who correspond with them. The Event itself has been explained in terms of Heaven's Gate doctrine, quoted as follows:

    "Planet Earth was recycled in 2018. California was only spared because our friends, those who ascended to the Next Level, were able to send it back in time. People have mocked us in the past and they have the right do that, but I hope they realize that Earth was destroyed and we were right. California is special to the Next Level because it is where the true believers left their vehicles and returned home. So now we're back to before Earth was recycled - a second chance only possible because of the fulfillment of our promise."

    The Tribune notes that all correspondence was polite and of a professional nature. When asked about new proselytes, it was countered that the world of 1852 is not yet ready to ascend to the Next Level.
     
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  • Sidestory
    • AYC said:
    Dropping by to post a [rather disturbing] extra about Heaven's Gate. The site is still maintained by two surviving members IOTL - since the suicides happened near San Diego and they don't identify themselves it's not much of a leap to say they live in CA.

    ---

    The Next Level

    Survivors of California Suicide Cult Speak With Tribune Reporters

    The New York Tribune - July 12, 1852

    Reporters of the Tribune have spoken to two surviving members of a religious cult based in California. This cult, named Heaven's Gate, was founded in 1975 and ended in the ritual suicide of 39 of its members in March of 1997, including the founder, Marshall Applewhite. Californians at the time and at present agree Applewhite likely suffered an illness of the mind, and present day adherents are nonexistent. However, this reporter exchanged correspondence with two surviving members of the cult. The pair identify as husband and wife, though both chose not to give their names. Curiously, the information site used by the group on California's Internet is maintained by them, unchanged in appearance since the 1997 mass suicide (and thus possessing an archaic aesthetic when compared to contemporary sites).

    As with any thoughts of a madman, the ideology of the cult was complex and is not of import. Like any contemporary claiming to be a prophet, Applewhite possessed unrivalled charisma and oratory skills, explaining the number of adherents. It is sufficient to say that he claimed a comet (named Hale-Bopp) passing by Earth during the year of the suicide would take the believers to the "Next Level" on a space-based vehicle. This "Next Level" is distinct from the afterlife of Scripture, with emphasis on the evolution of human beings into pure creatures of space - free of sexual or carnal desires. In extreme commitment to sexual purity, Applewhite and seven other men underwent surgery to become eunuchs.

    Despite the apparent conclusion of this belief system with the deaths of almost all members, first-hand accounts and explanations of it may be obtained by contacting the two survivors, tasked by the departed with remaining behind to educate the world about Heaven's Gate. As the location of the suicide is a home in San Diego, both were in California at the time of the Event and will answer any questions to those who correspond with them. The Event itself has been explained in terms of Heaven's Gate doctrine, quoted as follows:

    "Planet Earth was recycled in 2018. California was only spared because our friends, those who ascended to the Next Level, were able to send it back in time. People have mocked us in the past and they have the right do that, but I hope they realize that Earth was destroyed and we were right. California is special to the Next Level because it is where the true believers left their vehicles and returned home. So now we're back to before Earth was recycled - a second chance only possible because of the fulfillment of our promise."

    The Tribune notes that all correspondence was polite and of a professional nature. When asked about new proselytes, it was countered that the world of 1852 is not yet ready to ascend to the Next Level.
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    Huh, you know, the Event will prevent most of the Millennium doomsday nonsense, as well as the 2012 believers - but as Nov 6, 2018 gets closer there will be people running around expecting Cali to be sent back in time again or something. You couldn't even really prove them wrong until after the anniversary.
     
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