A year is fair. This will allow people to get used to and take time to take stock of the situation.
The Coalition will need this time to learn from each other. Likes, dislikes, cultures, basically get everyone on the same page.
A Flame of Hope in the Grim Darkness (A 40k/Multicross Quest)
- Thread starter BobTheNinja
- Start date
- Crossover Sci-Fi Fantasy
A year is fair. This will allow people to get used to and take time to take stock of the situation.
The Coalition will need this time to learn from each other. Likes, dislikes, cultures, basically get everyone on the same page.
Dark_River49
Randomly Generated Gremlin, Writes Walls of Text
- Location
- Somewhere in Sufficient Velocity
So, @BobTheNinja , How many updates would you say we have to fix our shit before the Imperium/Eldar/Chaos/other Galactic powers come knocking?
BobTheNinja
Sword of Possibility
- Location
- Multiverse Sector Texas
Brand new star nations don't just happen overnight. It's going to take a lot of negotiation and political processing to get there. I said as much when I gave you the vote options.
That said, the constituent nations will still be able to do cooperative research and construction programs, it just won't be as fast or efficient until the federal framework is finished.
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BobTheNinja
Sword of Possibility
- Location
- Multiverse Sector Texas
Unless you get really unlucky, you're probably looking at around 20 updates, which would be about 6 months of in-game time per update. I was originally going to go with 3 months per update, but that seems like it would take way too long.
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- Location
- colombia
a big issue with representative democracy is campaigning times (the time where candidates do their proposals to get voted/elected)
i dont mind them at the local level but at the high end scale we cant afford several months campaigns while the galaxy burns
i like the idea of recycling elements from the soviet council systems
a council elects a representative,the representatives can vote for a leaders/representative of the entire nation from a pool of skilled enough candidates
the chosen leader is done through random ballot but a confirmation vote is done so everyone agrees this appointed leader is acceptable for everyone,keep upper leadership election done through this fast appointment method but highly accountable to the councils that appointed them (similar to how a CEO is held by the investor board)
we must be a social (that prioritizes overall wellfare of citizens and society) state under the rule of law
on more local level ,let everyone have their own unique governments with the following conditions
>they must follow basic laws of the constitution
>they must have some sort of accountability to citizenry (the governed have to consent to the government and have mechanism to express and measure said consent) ideally democratic-esque (reccomended but not obligatory)
>they must choose a representative for the parlament
StarSingerBlue
Zenryoku Zenkai !
- Location
- The City of Lights
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I knew a nation wouldn't just sprout overnight, and a year is actually pretty short in comparison to real life, it's just that I'd hadn't properly thought about how it would hamper stuff until then and kinda thought that ROB would descend from the sky to smooth things over. Oh well, that should teach me about relying on sort-of-divine intervention.
My idea for the council of representatives is that in peacetime they have limited powers, acting more like ministers and don't actually decide on laws and bills, just propose them before the citizens vote on them, but are given more power during wartime or times of crisis, a bit like implementing martial law. Elections are suspended during times of crisis, although citizens can call up a popular vote (a bit like a cross-between a referendum and a petition) if they feel the council is going overboard and abusing its powers.
Or we could just have an Athens-style direct e-democracy, where every citizen is in charge of voting in laws and proposing said laws.
Also, how do you define "skilled-enough candidates" ? Will there be a "stuff politicians need to know test" they take ? Who will be in charge of that ?
Spart117MC
Amateur human
- Location
- Cali
Yeah, I'm against any form of limited democracy. The potential for abuse there is astronomical. The point isn't to become a second Imperium, the Coalition is here to establish a better society and one that suspends rights because it is a time of crisis isn't such a society.
This is 40K, there will never not be a crisis. Better to build a society that will be free and operate regularly despite it being under threat rather than one that is going to go to all lengths to ensure its survival even if it means oppressing the citizenry during one. The latter already exists. It's called the Imperium of Man.
This is 40K, there will never not be a crisis. Better to build a society that will be free and operate regularly despite it being under threat rather than one that is going to go to all lengths to ensure its survival even if it means oppressing the citizenry during one. The latter already exists. It's called the Imperium of Man.
- Location
- colombia
yeah exactly that, i expect a economic minister to have at least experiences related to the field prior taking the position
the test design could be done through third party institutions (designed by college and institutions working in unison)
is pretty much what we already do for judges in many parts of the world
is 40k,war time might as well be every second of the stay
i would like to have a president,but treat him more like a manager,he is hired/appointed by the council to crunch numbers and enact the laws and projects,but he can be recalled/dismissed for any reason at any moment,with elections being taken in a rather quickly manner (skilled enough candidate pool,random ballot,confirmation vote,a public functionary),no big promises on campaign,no ability to increases chance of getting chosen (random ballot),a appointed bureaucrat that can be replaced at any moment in quick manner
the council representatives are chosen/appointed by each local government (be it planet,country etc) and can be recalled by them at any momment
mainly parlamentary democracy than a presidential one
the law making process tho i like the idea of making use of e-democracy,i would like representatives being able to propose laws as well citizenry
but citizenry getting the final say on what passes and what doesnt
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StarSingerBlue
Zenryoku Zenkai !
- Location
- The City of Lights
- Pronouns
- They/Them
The popular vote as a form of protest against the council going too far was meant to act as a modicum of checks and balances, but it would probably not be enough, all things considered.
I just wanted to avoid stuff like what happened to the Diasporex, when they were under massive attack from the Imperium but had problems rallying quickly enough because they had no central leader, instead having a democratic system of governance.
The idea of sticking to our ideals of democracy and equality through thick and thin is a noble one, and will probably help create a sense of national cohesion.
The test as a way to ensure decent rulers who actually know what they're doing, isn't a bad one, but I have a feeling that at some point, a populist is going to rise up and decry the tests as elitist and alienating the working man (who is, of course, opposed to those weak-livered liberal intellectuals) and who-needs-to-know-that-stuff-anyway-don't you-know-my-IQ-is-super-high.
Even though "it might fail at some point" is a self-defeating excuse and I'd rather not have people incapable of spelling the word potato occupying the high offices of whatever we decide the Coalition is going to be called, I fear we might end up like the Weimar Republic if things start going pear-shaped.
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Spart117MC
Amateur human
- Location
- Cali
The Diasporex didn't die because it's a democracy, it died because it was written into 30K and the Imperium of Man needs to kill anything that isn't it. It's no more an indication of the fragility of democracy than BattleTech only having Neo-Feudal superpowers.
The writers killed it.
The writers killed it.
- Location
- colombia
representative democracy (with political parties and election times with big speeches),isnt neither the only kind of democracy nor the end be all of government styles
StarSingerBlue
Zenryoku Zenkai !
- Location
- The City of Lights
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Well, the writers said that democracy was part of what made the Diasporex weak compared to the Imperium regardless of how little that fact has to do with reality (fascist societies such as the Imperium are for the most part horribly corrupt and quite bad at getting things done compared to democracies), it's just that I don't want us to make a society where everything collapses because of a catastrophe and some dictator uses that to build a powerbase and take control.
Also, we are not setting up any system resembling the United States's Electoral College. Tis a silly idea.
Also, we are not setting up any system resembling the United States's Electoral College. Tis a silly idea.
Spart117MC
Amateur human
- Location
- Cali
Are you seriously advocating in favor of a government where democracy is limited and only people that meet arbitrarily decided criteria are permitted to vote and enter office and that they are better?
StarSingerBlue
Zenryoku Zenkai !
- Location
- The City of Lights
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Well, I guess there's always direct democracy, where people directly decide on laws instead of through representatives, like Athens had or some parts of Switzerland still have. Some sci-fi series have e-democracies, which are basically direct democracies but through the internet instead of everyone meeting up in a place.
- Location
- colombia
no,im not?
voting is done by citizens (as law are supposed to pass by referendum),whats limited is who can be a functionary/representative (who can be minister,president,judge etc) for certain positions (minister of economy are chosen from the pool of representatives that have a background related to that field)
wich isnt specially shocking,as you know,expecting your doctor to go to medical school of some kind or your ttruck driver to have taken driving courses
the skill ceiling needed to be able to be electable for this positions should vary depending on position (merely run of the mill lawmaker should only need having finished school and have served in local government before being chosen as representative)
from the pool of this "skilled enough" people in the council,you choose by random ballot and then have a referendum for confirmation
the random ballot is intended to get rid of campaigning and politicking to get into a position
is supposed to be appointment of functionaries by ballot that can be recalled/dismissed by citizens
i repeat
representative democracy isnt the end be all of governments
Spart117MC
Amateur human
- Location
- Cali
What you're describing is a meritocracy and I'm still not sold on it.
- Location
- colombia
i mean,you do you,im not trying to convince you personally merely pointing that direct democracy and a parlamentary focus (lawmakers having far more power than executive leadership like the president),is far from being a limited democracy
tho always feel free t suggest your ideas on how should the government be structured
Narsauce
The Crucible Shitlord
- Location
- Here, there and everywhere
Eh, all forms of Government have problems. Direct Democracies have a problem with catering to the majority while never taking into account the wants/needs of the minority if the two sides are opposed. In our current case, the NUN has the highest population, bar none, and makes up more than half of our population total. Direct democracy would effectively make it such that the NUN is the decider of everything in any "First Past the Post" kind of voting system, which direct democracies typically are, usually majority plus one.
I think after we establish everything and finally go into the wider galaxy, we should find as much tech from ANYWHERE and reverse engineer them.
Especially Necron and Imperium tech.
I'm sure Imperium tech will be easier to study than Necron tech tho.
Although we might get hunted down by Mechanicus Skiitari.
Especially Necron and Imperium tech.
I'm sure Imperium tech will be easier to study than Necron tech tho.
Although we might get hunted down by Mechanicus Skiitari.
BobTheNinja
Sword of Possibility
- Location
- Multiverse Sector Texas
From what I remember, the Diasporex was actually kicking the Imperial Navy's ass for a while thanks to their advanced space warfare tactics, and only got taken down for good once the Imperium found a strategic weakness to exploit, that being their reliance on stationary refueling facilities for their nomadic fleets.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
You mean to tell me that 40k has an explicitly nomadic society, born in the engine room as it were, that hasn't figured out underway replenishment?
- Location
- Poland
With the Federal option winning Chaldea has the option of becoming a federal organisation instead of joining one of the other factions.
While I support the idea of a democracy for the federal level of the Coalition there is one problem for all kinds, whereby it's a representative, parliamentary or direct one. The FTL comms available are utter shit. To my knowledge none of the factions we brought along have an actual proper FTL network like you would see in Star Wars with the Holonet and which would be needed for a properly functioning democracy with billions and trillions of citizens spread across thousands of light years in the future. It may work for now but we also need to think about the future.
Additionally once the Coalition expands to those heights I mentioned earlier it may become a case of too many cooks in the kitchen, paralysing designs by the virtue of too many people pulling in too many directions at once.
And none of the 40k faction have the tech for that either. One of the biggest reasons for why the Imperium is so hands off with its individual member worlds is because Astropathic messages are both really slow and really unreliable.
BobTheNinja
Sword of Possibility
- Location
- Multiverse Sector Texas
This isn't really true? The Vanguard and their allies in Destiny do have FTL communications, otherwise Zavala and other leaders wouldn't be able to talk to Guardian fireteams in real time across the Sol system. And Macross does have Fold communication technology as well, albeit with some limitations imposed by Fold faults and other spatial anomalies.
Spart117MC
Amateur human
- Location
- Cali
Homeworld also has interstellar FTL comms, in fact one of the missions from the first game involves gaining access to a comms relay so that a character can send a message to their allies via it.
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- Location
- colombia
you need a viable population with a sense of identity for that,how many people has chaldea?,even a modern day village outnumbers them
is almost inevitable for them to assimilated,is the logical path
avaible to the imperium
destiny has FTL comms,macross does too,as well homeworld
we arent using astropaths
thats why we choose the federal option,to leave local governments deal with self admnistration,with the big scale decisions proposed and polished by the council parlament,citizens job is vote yes/no
another big advantage of parlamentary systems is that they are highly gridlock resistant thanks to the ability to recall representatives (new representatives means repeating the same gridlock is unlikely),snap votings,dissolutions of parlament etc
many mechanisms for esentially re-setting the situation
in many ways im taking inspiration from anglo parlaments (uk and australian),the athenian democracy by ballot,and the swiss direct democracy