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A Backwards Grin (Pokemon) (Mawile SI)

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Flairina said:
The question is whether or not TMs even exist in the anime-verse, as we've never seen them in the main series. If Paul isn't using TMs however, then he's clearly teaching his Pokemon TM-only moves through some other method anyways, so it's likely he has some way of going about teaching moves regardless.
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It's an interesting topic, certainly. As said, at the very least, it is a matter of accomplishing the same results simply through different means when the anime is compared to the games. The absence of TM's in the anime is also only a non-positive, not actually going against the existence of TM's, so there's ample room for them to just be considered something that indeed simply isn't on-screen as a legitimate explanation for something that does rather imply a need for justification; Pokemon also has some pretty surreal and altogether idiosyncratic technology, too, especially where pokemon are concerned, so it does fit in perfectly well enough. It also, though, has some further implications when considered through the perspective of greater realism, because TM-like moves are indeed present, and a lack of game mechanics means that all TM's could well be much more available than the largely single-use as the are for a player, instead perhaps being more like they seem to be for gym leaders where their corresponding TM's are found across their teams. Some TM's can be purchased without limit in-game, but only a select few; in a story medium instead of game medium, though, who knows, maybe maybe someone rich enough might be able to outfit a whole team with a favourite move.

A further consideration on TM's though, they might have some sort of regulation, which could further blend together medium styles; maybe TM's can indeed outright be manufactured, but a player might not get many in multiples for TM's in general just not being terribly accessible for someone in the player's position. It could also cast a contrast with Gym Leaders, who indeed are prominent figures in society as both recognised leaders of sorts and authority figures carrying responsibilities, plus they are outright intended to help develop other trainers too, so them maybe having greater access through one means or another might make a good deal of sense. Gym Leaders might even be involved in the process of making the TM's, too, for that matter, which brings up an intriguing point in and of itself.

How are TM's or whatever their actual analogue is made? In-universe, all of the information we can take for granted had to be discovered, and people learn new things about pokemon every day, so maybe there's some sort of interesting process by which new moves are discovered and made available.

They then pull out salt, and that gets eaten too, while Mawile!me is just enjoying the meal.
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Another curiosity, pokemon taste preferences are something that comes up in-universe no small amount. What does a Mawile like to eat, and what does this particular example of the type like to eat? Thus far, eating has mostly just been something of a bland, literally tasteless chore than something enjoyable, but pokemon taste preferences and ideal nutritional guidelines are Serious Business in the world of Pokemon, refined to a science with a serious industry and applied practice behind it. In-game, flavours correlate to pokemon natures, but that's a game mechanic... unless maybe it isn't? Or maybe it isn't just a game mechanic? Who knows, maybe another Mawile might be encountered who indeed has quite different preferences even if possessed of the same dietary needs. Just as well, though, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if there are particular berries adored by Mawile, which might make a tasty treat at some point in the story... assuming that the mouth that can taste is used, anyway.

Now I'm half wondering if there's going to be some wacky scheme with Team Rocket trying to kidnap an unfairly insightful special Mawile and trying to use "enough" food to placate their target in what is actually something of a scam going the other way. I don't envy whoever foots the bill trying to sate this thing's appetite with ever more deluxe poffins, or whatever, especially since even the undesirable ones can still just go down the hatch of the second mouth... which incidentally might well be faced directly towards the hapless fools spying behind their quarry in all its snappy toothiness.

I'm not sure if Ash has ever had to deal with a scenario like that exactly, but I can imagine what his reaction would be - throwing himself directly into the fray in an attempt to stop anyone from getting hurt. Which he'll likely manage to emerge from mostly unscathed, despite all logic insisting he shouldn't.
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*remembers watching Pokemon: The First Movie the first time as a kid* Nope, no, that way lies Pikachu crying. Can't have that. I mean, yeah, he'll somehow inevitably get better every single time, but still. I guess that just means that that Ursaring will have to be eaten by surprise before that can happen, otherwise it'll mean having to go through some huge affair to track down Jirachi or something, and that just sounds like such a hassle. Truly, eating problems away is the answer.

True... to a degree. However, aside from a certain other issue, something that I think a lot of people may be forgetting is just how much space there is between cities in the anime (as would naturally make sense). Keep in mind that in the games, a route from one of the starting towns to the next might take maybe half a minute to pass through, assuming no battles occur to interrupt you. In the anime however, the same route will take days, if not weeks to pass through, and generally isn't even a straight line. This is Route 202 in the games, while THIS is a small section of it in the anime. The rest of it includes fields, hills, and multiple forests, including the one Mawile!me has been stuck in for a week. It's crucial to remember that outside the context of the games, the regions are in fact regions, large enough that they take people many months to fully explore/cross on foot.

...now add on that you're two feet tall and have a giant set of paperweights attached to your head, and perhaps the problem with the idea of "just leave and walk your way to the nearest city" begins to become more apparent.
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It's close enough that the prospect of Ash turning around and heading back to Professor Rowan should that kind of scenario play out might be viable, at least, more of a side mission than a full-on quest in its own right as might be the case if things had happened elsewhere. It does bring up an interesting idea, though, because scale is both important and perhaps rather odd. The world of Pokemon is supposed to be something of a parallel to Japan, but how well do distances correlate? Too, how do the days themselves factor? Time is also kind of weird here, with the days being acknowledge to maybe be shorter, but ambiguous in that regard, so the distance of "a few days' travel" might vary dramatically. Unless the scale is really, really big, though, it also could have some interesting implications for the actual effectiveness of less mundane means of transportation, because even a big flying pokemon traveling at something of a realistic pace compared to a normal bird of maybe thirty to forty kilometers per hour or so might get around pretty well, and literal outright teleportation is a thing too. Travel over the seas might be somewhat tricky though; even if the distances do correlate analogously to real-world Japan, other pokemon might make travel time not actually based on distance much. Latios and Latias could probably show up basically anywhere in short order, though; being able to go supersonic has its perks.

That said, crossing any distance could be a daunting prospect. I don't think the comparative level differences of the local pokemon by particular area is actually a thing here, outside of game mechanics, because you might indeed have the likes of a great big Ursaring firing off freaking Hyper Beams just a short ways into the journey. Good luck getting far without plot armour or Pokemon-God's backing if you're counting entirely on one lonesome pokemon practically fresh from its egg.
 
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I always assumed TMs were a series of movies where some professional move tutor explains how to learn a move in a really easy to learn way. Kinda like that Teachy TV thing in FRLG.

I just rationalized them breaking as being out of print for a long time and subsequently rare and in really bad condition.

It's the only way I could personally see using a CD to teach a living creature a move.

HMs didn't break in my mind because they were newer, made after the show was canceled on the hosts own money.

And now none of them break so I guess the show was rebooted!

That's all just my personal headcanon though.
 
Flairina said:
The question is whether or not TMs even exist in the anime-verse, as we've never seen them in the main series. If Paul isn't using TMs however, then he's clearly teaching his Pokemon TM-only moves through some other method anyways, so it's likely he has some way of going about teaching moves regardless.
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I'm not sure how representative Ash' pikachu is for the possibilties normal pokémon have, but: Iron Tail. Learned it by repeatedly hitting a rock with his tail, if I remember correctly (it's been like 15 years since I've seen that episode).
 
SilverShadows said:
I always assumed TMs were a series of movies where some professional move tutor explains how to learn a move in a really easy to learn way. Kinda like that Teachy TV thing in FRLG.

I just rationalized them breaking as being out of print for a long time and subsequently rare and in really bad condition.

It's the only way I could personally see using a CD to teach a living creature a move.

HMs didn't break in my mind because they were newer, made after the show was canceled on the hosts own money.

And now none of them break so I guess the show was rebooted!

That's all just my personal headcanon though.
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This is now my headcanon too. I claim it.
 
I think that, for my own preferences, it would be nice to see some differentiation between T.M. moves and level moves, just to keep some flavour and variance to the movelists. Perhaps level moves could be sort-of inevitable if you just keep training while T.M. moves require special effort and you largely need to be deliberately trying to attain them in order to learn them? Maybe it could be a permanent distinction? Even after they are learned, they may still require specific focus and effort while level moves would be natural and more a matter of just extending into one's familiarity. Like, maybe after a while Fairy Wind will just be a thing that Mawile can do, while Flash Cannon might forever be something that requires careful aim. Like the difference between Building simila piles of dust along a tabletop, compared to calculating precise dosages mathematically.
 
Saint of Witches said:
TMs take various forms, from CDs, to floppy discs, to small boxes/machines, to scrolls, to bangles. The only explanation is that they somehow contain the "essence" of a move. I don't know what that means, but I don't see a bangle popping out a view screen, either.
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I'm judging based on the games where since gen 3 they have always been depicted as CDs.

I can't recall if gen 1 or 2 had any kind of depiction of them in the manuals.

I never really played the TCG so I don't know if they were ever shown there. And I actively avoid the Pokemon Special side of things since I just don't like that interpretation of the setting.

Regardless, like I said that was just my own personal headcanon. Based on nothing more than every time I've encountered TMs in a visible form they've been CDs.
 
Flairina said:
And magic! Like, actual magic according to its pokedex entries, not just moves pretending to be magic. Maybe one of them is where Lily picked it up from.
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MismagiuSI: "Hocus pocus, your voice is now gone"
Paul: "!"
MismagiuSI: "Blissful silence at last"


Alternativly...

MismagiuSI: "If you don't learn to be nicer i'm teleporting you home without your stuff"

Paul ignores the warning

MismagiuSI: "Well, i warned you"

Paul Vanishes, leaving his loot behind.

MismagiuSI picks up the bag of pokeballs

"Guess i'm the trainer now"
 
As far as TM's go, for Hyphen I took the laser emitting properties Pokeballs possess and the CD shape of the items in the game to it's logical conclusion, and had TM's be physical discs that you could scan with the pokeball, that would, in whatever manner one would like, teach the pokemon inside the move. This damages the CD into utter ruin.
 
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Dermonster said:
As far as TM's go, for Hyphen I took the laser emitting properties Pokeballs possess and the CD shape of the items in the game to it's logical conclusion, and had TM's be physical discs that you could scan with the pokeball, that would, in whatever manner one would like, teach the pokemon inside the move. This damages the CD into utter ruin.
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The technological implications behind the Pokeball really are quite impressive when considered in detail. We have a commonplace item that just for starters has an interesting ability to smoothly scale in size somehow, and when actually used, it performs some kind of exotic conversion of the target in question to store them in a completely alternate state, and a highly convenient state at that. A Pokeball is able to provide detailed realtime information on its inhabitant to the linked Pokedex, while also providing some sort of attractive environment for the pokemon inside, and the overall system is highly variable for the base being frequently tailored to better suit particular factors. A recurring feature, however, is a method by which caught pokemon are made incompatible with the capture system in much the same way as humans are, or at least unless considerable effort is taken to work around this restriction. Curiously, though, at least in the anime, being inside of a pokeball does not at all seem to induce isolation. Further noteworthy aspects of the Pokeball also include the possibility for them to somehow be transferred over a network, suggesting that they might apply similar conversion technology to themselves in addition to the pokemon within them, and the staple Pokemon Center is able to interact with pokemon within their Pokeballs quite easily, if unfortunately not quite as conveniently in the anime as with game mechanics.

To that end, the idea that a Pokeball might somehow scan a device intended to be compatible with the Pokeball design and use it to do something to the pokemon within it sounds quite realistic, really. Granted, this is also a setting for which the technology pertaining to pokemon might just as well have the disk itself possess the means to interface with a pokemon to literally just upload its content straight to a pokemon—which could also explain its single use if it has to convert itself—but it fits the setting as something kinda normal by local standards, really. It also has some interesting implications for the similar but not identical HM's, too, though.

HM's provide the same results as TM's except the former is reusable. HM's also, however, teach very particular moves, which may be a significant factor. A TM might teach a pokemon any given move, but an HM provides a very practical tool for a trainer on their journey, and I think that might make the difference. As far as world-building goes for in-universe considerations, I have to wonder if any TM move might theoretically be possible to have as an HM and vice versa, but generally simply not be practical enough to be considered worth it; production costs seems like it could be a legitimate explanation, with TM's not exactly being cheap in their own right, but the similar technology to the Pokeball making it manageable well enough for the needs, whilst the comparatively vastly greater, regular demand of some moves makes that price simply too high to shell out all the time, thus prompting a product that goes to the extra lengths to indeed be reusable and be far more expensive than the already somewhat pricey TM's because of that, but overall be worth it as a considerable net savings... not that the wallet will appreciate that fact at first. I wonder if, say, the Officer Jenny army might have an HM of Flamethrower for the great big Growlithe pack, or something, basically the "bulk economy" version of TM35.
 
TacitSoliloquy said:
HM's provide the same results as TM's except the former is reusable. HM's also, however, teach very particular moves, which may be a significant factor. A TM might teach a pokemon any given move, but an HM provides a very practical tool for a trainer on their journey, and I think that might make the difference. As far as world-building goes for in-universe considerations, I have to wonder if any TM move might theoretically be possible to have as an HM and vice versa, but generally simply not be practical enough to be considered worth it; production costs seems like it could be a legitimate explanation, with TM's not exactly being cheap in their own right, but the similar technology to the Pokeball making it manageable well enough for the needs, whilst the comparatively vastly greater, regular demand of some moves makes that price simply too high to shell out all the time, thus prompting a product that goes to the extra lengths to indeed be reusable and be far more expensive than the already somewhat pricey TM's because of that, but overall be worth it as a considerable net savings... not that the wallet will appreciate that fact at first. I wonder if, say, the Officer Jenny army might have an HM of Flamethrower for the great big Growlithe pack, or something, basically the "bulk economy" version of TM35.
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so what would this mean after tms became reusable? did the term hm just become a branding thing, with all tms actually being hms due to hms becoming cheaper to produce?
 
OffBrandANON said:
so what would this mean after tms became reusable? did the term hm just become a branding thing, with all tms actually being hms due to hms becoming cheaper to produce?
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Either that, or TMs were a new technology with teething issues that once resolved were cheaper/easier to make/better than the older and more reliable HMs, thus rendering them obsolete.
 
OffBrandANON said:
so what would this mean after tms became reusable? did the term hm just become a branding thing, with all tms actually being hms due to hms becoming cheaper to produce?
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Honestly, I like the idea that TMs became reusable because Silph Co. (or whoever makes the things) previously basically had copy protection on the things which deleted the data after use, and as of Gen V, someone broke that copy protection around the same time that Silph's patent for the TM expired, leading to generic, reusable TMs flooding the market, causing Silph to just start making them without said copy protection in order to stay competitive. This would mean HMs were a premium product that Silph would sell prior to the patent expiring. Admittedly, this doesn't explain the Gen 3 remakes, beyond the possibility that TMs were invented earlier in that version of the Pokemon universe.
 
OffBrandANON said:
so what would this mean after tms became reusable? did the term hm just become a branding thing, with all tms actually being hms due to hms becoming cheaper to produce?
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I could see it maybe being a matter of development over time, with the HM creation process perhaps simply being refined over time after its initial inception to become cheap enough to indeed make "original" TM's obsolete much like some older analogues to the Pokeball. Classification might remain the same due to socio-political factors, though, with preexisting cultural concerns just keeping the same names because of bureaucratic or market inertia. If the official Pokemon League already has a tradition of several particular moves being made available as convenient field aids, and with those perhaps having some sort of regulation behind them tied to a user account's gym badges, then lumping the TM's and HM's together might well come across as simply nonsensical and confusing for the overall system, for the HM's being a distinct category for more reasons than just their reusability.

The topic is definitely something that could be of great interest for our main character here, though. She has a desire to become stronger, and good moves could certainly be of great aid to that end. Paul also certainly appears to have some means of providing non-standard moves for his pokemon and a willingness to employ such means for efficient effect, so it could well come up soon; Brick Break, for example, really is an excellent move to have on hand early on. She may not necessarily stay with Paul, or actually stick around with him for very long, but it might be long enough regardless for him to think carefully about how to make her a better combatant and do something about it, which further could result in her getting very curious on the topic. Generally speaking, she probably has a much better idea than most people in-universe as to the ideal theoretical potential of a Mawile, so she might start making plans should more viscerally personal implications of her new circumstances really impact her. That's the sort of thing that could well make the difference between her and a more ordinary Mawile; Mawile isn't really an especially impressive pokemon, honestly, but one with her mind might be a different matter entirely.
 
Dermonster said:
As far as TM's go, for Hyphen I took the laser emitting properties Pokeballs possess and the CD shape of the items in the game to it's logical conclusion, and had TM's be physical discs that you could scan with the pokeball, that would, in whatever manner one would like, teach the pokemon inside the move. This damages the CD into utter ruin.
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I keep thinking that there's probably this back alley dude making made bank with a CD burner.
 
of course, one thing that could really change alot of this speculation on tms, is the mystery dungeon games.
 
TacitSoliloquy said:
Mawile isn't really an especially impressive pokemon, honestly, but one with her mind might be a different matter entirely.
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There's also the fact that in the anime stats and stuff are more guidelines then hard rules. Would you say a Bellsprout is a nimble league level threat? No, but the anime disagrees. Can you order your pokemon to spin while using a projectile move to form a counter? No, but the anime disagrees.

Mawile being kinda trash in game means nothing to effort, strategy, and gimmicks.
 
KnownParadox said:
Mawile being kinda trash in game means nothing to effort, strategy, and gimmicks.
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True, but even Pikagod(Pikami? Pika-me?) had to really work to defeat a raichu. Evolution is a big deal. I would prefer to be using Spin To Win as a Charizard than as a Charmancer. Mawile isn't going to be lifting weights like a macho nor zipping around like a Starly. There are ways around this, lifting with her jaw and rocket-jumping for example, but I still wouldn't match it against having the traits innately, and doubly so trying to face someone who has better stats and is also Anime Cheating with gay abandon.
 
Aunty Shi Ping said:
True, but even Pikagod(Pikami? Pika-me?) had to really work to defeat a raichu. Evolution is a big deal. I would prefer to be using Spin To Win as a Charizard than as a Charmancer. Mawile isn't going to be lifting weights like a macho nor zipping around like a Starly. There are ways around this, lifting with her jaw and rocket-jumping for example, but I still wouldn't match it against having the traits innately, and doubly so trying to face someone who has better stats and is also Anime Cheating with gay abandon.
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As a bipedal creature with fingers, and a brain capable of making the most out of them, I wouldn't underestimate a Mawile that isn't bound by the limits of the medium. She may be at a disadvantage in direct combat against a top-ish tier opponent but that doesn't prevent her from being a damn nightmare. She is more or less a human being that may as well be made out of iron, who is naturally inclined to act as a particularly ruthless assassin, and who can probably one hit kill anything she can catch flat footed that isn't cosplaying as a kaiju.

I wouldn't discount a human being who can slice through a tree. Even if there are plenty of living siege weapons on the field.

We're just looking more at a horror movie serial killer archetype.
 
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Aunty Shi Ping said:
True, but even Pikagod(Pikami? Pika-me?) had to really work to defeat a raichu. Evolution is a big deal. I would prefer to be using Spin To Win as a Charizard than as a Charmancer. Mawile isn't going to be lifting weights like a macho nor zipping around like a Starly. There are ways around this, lifting with her jaw and rocket-jumping for example, but I still wouldn't match it against having the traits innately, and doubly so trying to face someone who has better stats and is also Anime Cheating with gay abandon.
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I really like the idea of a charmancer. Like a pyromancer that does a great Chicago-style steak.
 
HotaruSama said:
Honestly, I like the idea that TMs became reusable because Silph Co. (or whoever makes the things) previously basically had copy protection on the things which deleted the data after use, and as of Gen V, someone broke that copy protection around the same time that Silph's patent for the TM expired, leading to generic, reusable TMs flooding the market, causing Silph to just start making them without said copy protection in order to stay competitive. This would mean HMs were a premium product that Silph would sell prior to the patent expiring. Admittedly, this doesn't explain the Gen 3 remakes, beyond the possibility that TMs were invented earlier in that version of the Pokemon universe.
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Then what about the TRs then? A second attempt at copyrighting TMs? Or would it be the nostalgia revival of single use TMs.
 
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