[x] Who are we to reprimand the Peuketii for doing as we asked and finding us food? Woe to the Lucani for ranging out of their territory for grazing, they have paid the price. Let us feast now and then return home with peace of mind and full stomach.
The moratorium also allows times for user motions to be put forward instead of part way through the voting period which can get messy. I do think that the 24 hr period should be for major votes.
And a moratorium solves none of these problems. All it does it push them 24 hours down the road. It does not prevent the exact same thing happening a day later: people voting and considering their part done. Knowing that no voting is possible until a full day later in fact causes the exact problem it supposedly solves: people skipping until that time has elapsed and only then returning to the thread to vote.
I'm not entirely sure why you seem to think the two situations are the same. In the case where there is no moratorium, the discussion has not been allowed to mature and people jump on whatever bandwagon they deem best at the time and then leave the thread until the next update. Because of the lack of discussion, the choice is often ill-thought out and a result of knee-jerk emotional response. When cooler heads managee to prevail in the discussion, it's often too late because of these early voters. This does not happen to the same extentwith the moratorium. Here, the same kind of people might not participate or even read the discussion during the moratorium but they will be influenced by what other people who have read the discussion vote for because they're looking for a bandwagon. Thus, you mitigate the problem of a bandwagon by creating a space for discussion before any bandwagoning can occur.
Now, whether that moratorium should be 24 hours long or not is another discussion. I think it depends on the severity of the vote. The current vote probably didn't need a 24 hour voting moratorium. I imagine a 12 or even 6 hour moratorium would've been enough.
We have a new feature: Thread alerts. When someone posts in a thread after the last time you read it, it puts an alert in the top corner of your dashboard, informing there are new posts to read. Thus, you can be alerted to new votes, arguments, and read them to become informed as to what people have said in the meantime.
As opposed to a moratorium, which causes even more panicked bandwagons at the last moment since 24 hours has been wasted with no votes. As I pointed out, the argument for a moratorium makes no sense if votes are not permanently locked in. There is no benefit to a moratorium that allowing concurrent voting does not also enjoy, with additional benefits.
And a moratorium solves none of these problems. All it does it push them 24 hours down the road. It does not prevent the exact same thing happening a day later: people voting and considering their part done. Knowing that no voting is possible until a full day later in fact causes the exact problem it supposedly solves: people skipping until that time has elapsed and only then returning to the thread to vote.
Except that is meaningless if you have to multiple pages of posts coming within an hour of the update. That is the time period we want to avoid voting in. These are fire and forget votes. They are not exactly going to keep checking back every five minutes for new alerts or they would not be fire and forget votes.
Lolwut. Where are you getting that having a 24 hour moratorium will cause even more panic? How on earth does that make sense?
It solves exactly all of those problems as the issue has been reviewed by many of the people involved in this quest and can thus start an informed bandwagon rather than the panicky bandwagon.
If you wish to skip the discussion that takes place in the moratorium, that is your prerogative, but I can assure that the majority of the people voting will check through it. Especially with so many people doing attractive IC speeches for or against certain votes.
I'm not entirely sure why you seem to think the two situations are the same. In the case where there is no moratorium, the discussion has not been allowed to mature and people jump on whatever bandwagon they deem best at the time and then leave the thread until the next update. Because of the lack of discussion, the choice is often ill-thought out and a result of knee-jerk emotional response. When cooler heads managee to prevail in the discussion, it's often too late because of these early voters. This does not happen to the same extentwith the moratorium. Here, the same kind of people might not participate or even read the discussion during the moratorium but they will be influenced by what other people who have read the discussion vote for because they're looking for a bandwagon. Thus, you mitigate the problem of a bandwagon by creating a space for discussion before any bandwagoning can occur.
Now, whether that moratorium should be 24 hours long or not is another discussion. I think it depends on the severity of the vote. The current vote probably didn't need a 24 hour voting moratorium. I imagine a 12 or even 6 hour moratorium would've been enough.
You really think that the majority of voters actually reads that discussion? Because I have my doubts regarding that. I at least tend in most cases to at best skim over it if not skip it completely since I simply don't have the time or interest to spend half on hour or more reading several pages filled with often circular discussions... A moratorium simply means I come when the update is posted, leave the thread and come back once the vote is open - Only when I have a lot of free time and a vested interest in what is happening do I spend any meaningful time in the thread during it.
So we need a moratorium to block people from missing things in the rush after an update.... that you assure 'that the majority of the people voting will check through' anyway. Gotcha.
In any case, we do need to get those stone walls up ASAP, since we have a lot of enemies and may have made a few more with the sheep.
Here, the same kind of people might not participate or even read the discussion during the moratorium but they will be influenced by what other people who have read the discussion vote for because they're looking for a bandwagon. Thus, you mitigate the problem of a bandwagon by creating a space for discussion before any bandwagoning can occur.
My point wasn't that these kinds of voters will spend the time necessary in order to make an informed decision though I do believe that more will do so. It was that a 24-hour moratorium will allow other people to discuss things and often come to a general consensus (or bandwagon) which the uninformed will also jump on. Thus mitigating(not removing) the problem of early bandwagons.
You really think that the majority of voters actually reads that discussion? Because I have my doubts regarding that. I at least tend in most cases to at best skim over it if not skip it completely since I simply don't have the time or interest to spend half on hour or more reading several pages filled with often circular discussions... A moratorium simply means I come when the update is posted, leave the thread and come back once the vote is open - Only when I have a lot of free time and a vested interest in what is happening do I spend any meaningful time in the thread during it.
So we need a moratorium to block people from missing things in the rush after an update.... that you assure 'that the majority of the people voting will check through' anyway. Gotcha.
It works out in Sage quests where more than 5 pages can easily go through within the first hour in discussion. Points and agreements made in that time are what the bandwagon follows. Pretty much every time.
More than anything it allows the people who actively follow and participate in the thread more say in what gets pushed through or not and stops the shiny bandwagon that happens when you just let people vote out of the gate.
I mean look at American Elections. Do you think there is no point in allowing campaigning for candidates and that once they are decided we should immediately vote? You say that this is not the same since there is not only one vote, but with 24 hour voting periods and differing time zones. It kinda is for a lot of people.
Now, whether that moratorium should be 24 hours long or not is another discussion. I think it depends on the severity of the vote. The current vote probably didn't need a 24 hour voting moratorium. I imagine a 12 or even 6 hour moratorium would've been enough.
[X] Who are we to reprimand the Peuketii for doing as we asked and finding us food? Woe to the Lucani for ranging out of their territory for grazing, they have paid the price. Let us feast now and then return home with peace of mind and full stomach.
[X] Who are we to reprimand the Peuketii for doing as we asked and finding us food? Woe to the Lucani for ranging out of their territory for grazing, they have paid the price. Let us feast now and then return home with peace of mind and full stomach.
[X] Who are we to reprimand the Peuketii for doing as we asked and finding us food? Woe to the Lucani for ranging out of their territory for grazing, they have paid the price. Let us feast now and then return home with peace of mind and full stomach.
[X] Who are we to reprimand the Peuketii for doing as we asked and finding us food? Woe to the Lucani for ranging out of their territory for grazing, they have paid the price. Let us feast now and then return home with peace of mind and full stomach.
The people of Eretria made their decision loud and clear, and with such powerful unanimity that the atmosphere was thick with hungry anticipation. Along among the citizens were a few hoplites who warned of impending trouble and evil from accepting the feast, and the consistent challenge of Drako, who refused his share in the feast and instead offered it to his friends and companions instead. When asked why he would not eat, Drako explained that he had failed to convince the ekklesia "so terribly" that he did not deserve a cut of the meat; instead he would take the bones and throw them over his shoulder to emphasize his burden in this decision. This was honored, and soon a pile of sheep bones began to collect around Drako. Others, who interpreted a religious meaning to the pile, assumed this was some kind of important offering and began to pile even more bones.
All the while Drako stood impassive and statuesque, until he was almost entirely covered in sheep bones from the citizens. He would stay, under a pile of bones up to his shoulders, for a full night before they left the plateau. Many citizens came to see him and others spoke of his great piety, but Pydamon said that it was nothing of the sort, but the petulance of the defeated. Nevertheless, he knew he had lost that battle, and Drako had turned his defeat into a myth of the "Man of Bones"; many citizens came to see him among the bones and nodded solemnly at his determination.
In the meantime, however, most of the citizens simply enjoyed their mutton. It was a delicious flock; first they shaved the wool, then slaughtered the sheep at their leisure. Amid the pleasant rapture of the feast, there was a short bout of athletic games (such as throwing uprooted stones from Azetion's city wall at idols from its temple), dancing, and merriment. Pydamon took the wool and offered it to the Gods as material for the city in a series of woven artworks that would be beautiful to hang in the temple of the Divine Marriage. Herodion made a speech to the citizens emphasizing their endurance in the face of a long campaign season and the dreadful things they had faced in the pursuit of fighting Azetion, included the thirst that accompanied warring in the arid Hills of Murgia.
Four fat sheep were selected and brought before the altar, whereupon Pydamon slaughtered them in turn and distributed the meat to the most destitute members of the army; the poor rowers and psilloi, the metics, and the most honorable who had served as riders to find food. The feast, all told, lasted one week, while they fed on the sheep and enjoyed themselves. Finally, it was time for them to go home, and soon it was as if the city itself was on the move; tents uprooted, circumvellation wall knocked down, banners removed and shields hoisted onto backs. Herodion and Pydamon decided to appoint a few of the citizens as drum-players, and fashioned drums from the skins of the sheep; then they had a few of the young boys beat the drums as the army was on the march. Singing accompanied the drums, and the army went almost as a chorus back to Eretria. This singing had grown increasingly popular among the soldiers; Herodion said he had seen it in Illyria, where the women would sometimes accompany the warriors and sing ballads to them on campaign. Whether or not that was true, he argued, it was good for the citizens to sing as they went, and the drums added order to the proceedings.
Now the Peuketii rode beside them. King Harpos, the most notable man among the Peuketii, hoisted Sannape's banner of the Green Sun as a woven flag and waved it with his riders at the head of the column, meeting with Herodion and speaking to him as the march back continued. The Peuketii continued to camp with the Greeks (though in a separate camp nearby at their insistence) for three days, until the coastal plain was in sight. Then Harpos said his goodbyes, and remarked that it was unfortunate that the Canosans could not make it; indeed, Atthelon and the Peuketii city of Canosa were nowhere to be seen and had not answered the marshaling call beyond a perfunctory dozen riders. It was believed that they saw the elevation of Harpos as a major snub and thus did maintained distance, although this was only speculation that Kallias the xenoparakletor shared with the camp as they neared the city.
Finally they arrived. The walls were filled to the brim with women and children, old men and merchants, all clamoring for the return of the army to Eretria. It had been the longest campaign season since their arrival, and many wanted simply to settle home and take a very long nap. As it was, news from abroad did not fill their sleep with pleasant dreams. To the northwest, the Eretrian rival Arpus scored an enormous victory against the Frentani, a tribe of Samnites. Not only did he drive them out of the valley where the city of Teanum had previously sat (before the Frentani invaded), but he settled a new fortress city, Drionis, in its place. His prestige unrivaled among the Iapygians, King Arpus has sent a token gift to the Eretrians, a single feathered helmet of the Frentani with a cracked top, showing his domination over them. For the citizens of Eretria, it was both a blessing and a curse; it reminded them that should the Lucani arrive they could be beaten, but it also mean that Arpus, who had been battling against the Frentani for years, was no longer preoccupied.
Two events gave the Eretrians some peace of mind, at the least. The completion of the stone camp, stalled due to the campaign but now finished, allowed for the construction of a stone wall that could finally afford the city real security, and to top it off a breakthrough was made in digging an underwater spring. The tunnel was completed and shored up, and the city now had an independent water source in the case of a siege; in addition to the grain storehouse, it would be enough to hold out for at least two years if blockaded at land and sea.
Turning away from matters of defense, there was at least one more thorny problem the city had to solve. Although years of warfare and the actions of Eretria had depopulated the Peuketii lands, they were rapidly recouping their losses in the peace, especially as some Peuketii who had fled into Messapii and Dauni lands returned home. With that in mind, the Peuketii cities had an eye towards land-hunger, or at least denying the ambition of their rivals. The Canosans and Sannapians, who despised each other as rivals for the largest and most important Peuketii city, both wanted a share of the former land of Azetion. The Canosans, knowing that they would not be able to argue for a larger share, simply suggested that the principle of equality of land ownership between themselves and the Sannapians (that had been maintained after the sack of Murgia, another Peuketii city) needed to stand.
Harpos, for his part, came to the walls of Eretria, and although he did not request entrance, orated from the plain below the city to the citizens who came to see him. He praised Eretria, said it had fought well against him, and that he had in turn worked hard for the city by providing it with sheep. Now, however, he needed the majority of the lands of Azetion as a bulwark against the Lucani. He would take the ruins of the fortress of Azetion and recycle its stones to bring a new fort nearby, calling it Erodia in honor of Herodion, to serve as the first line of defense against any Lucani invasion, and he would do it out of his own treasury. To do that, however, he needed the majority of the land around Azetion, which was non-contigious to Canosa anyways. If they wanted equality, he argued, they ought to bring their horses to ride for Eretria in equal numbers to him. The matter was put to the ekklesia in an open vote; Drako gave no comment as he was sick at the time after spending a cold late summer night covered in bones, and Herodion was for rewarding Harpos for a job well done. Antipater, for his part, thought the whole matter was obscene and that the Peuketii are too crafty for their own good, recommending to everyone that no matter their decision they ought not to trust any sweet words coming from the mouths of their former enemies.
---
King Harpos, the Peuketii ruler of Sannape, is a major subject of Eretria. During the campaign against the rebellious city of Azetion, Harpos' contributions were valuable not only in his help in finding the flock of sheep but in his hunting down of serfs and screening of the Eretrian army as it marched. He has asked that his contributions be acknowledged by Eretria granting him the majority of the land around Azetion so that he can construct a fort, Erodia, there to act as a protection against any Lucani invasion. For their part, the Peuketii city of Canosa contributed almost nothing to the campaign, but has appealed through representatives that Eretria has equally distributed land among the Peuketii in the past and they should not stop now. It is up to Eretria on whether or not they should give Harpos the lion's share or maintain equality, even if Canosa does not have any land connection to the plateau around Azetion. The smallest Peuketii city, Rhyps, wants nothing to do with the matter and does not want anymore land. How should Eretria distribute the land?
[] Provide an equal amount of land around Azetion to both Harpos and the Canosans to maintain the principle of equality between the Peuketii cities. What is loyalty among barbaroi? They cannot be trusted with such a power imbalance.
[] Provide more land to Harpos so that he may build his fortress. He has proven himself a good and loyal subject, and if we do not reward good and loyal subjects, what kind of masters are we? A dog who is beaten when he is good and given treats when he is bad is not useful to anyone.
Voting is immediately open, and will close tomorrow at 8 PM EST.
New Buildings Constructed: Stone Camp [Resources, Tier II], Underwater Spring [Siege Defense, Tier II] New Buildings Unlocked: Stone Walls [Fortifications, Tier III] (It's Tier III but I'll allow it), Stone Theater [Entertainment, Tier II]
Population & Military
Eretria Eskhata
Population: 31,801 (3.5% growth per turn) Triremes: 10 Total Raisable Levy: 3,450 men Hoplites: 1,925 Men Sacred Ekdromoi: 500 Men Cavalry: 375 Men Kleos Exoria: 50 Men Psilloi: 600 Men Maximum Levy: 3,600 men
1 unit of Metals from Kymai (-10 talents per turn due to tax)
1 unit of Metals from Canosa (-6 talents per turn due to tax)
Exports
2 units of Smoked Anchovies to Taras (+20 talents a turn)
1 unit of Lumber to Greece (+10 talents a turn)
1 unit of Grain to Athens (+7 talents a turn)
Modifiers
Weights and Measures: 10% Trade Bonus Agora: 25% Trade Bonus
I know that we need to maintain balance but I'm kinda leaning towards giving the land to Harpos in the hope that it encourages the Canosans to step up their game. Plus I think that if we give no reward for good service we won't be getting any.
Edit: Still don't trust the fuckers though. Any of them.
(Besides maybe Rhyps because they're too much in the line of fire to make the plotting worth it.)
[X] Provide more land to Harpos so that he may build his fortress. He has proven himself a good and loyal subject, and if we do not reward good and loyal subjects, what kind of masters are we? A dog who is beaten when he is good and given treats when he is bad is not useful to anyone. But a good sheepdog should continue to herd sheep, and it is moot that Harpos provide us a token of his respect from the flocks he will raise on the new land, as his overlords.
He's been loyal to us, might as well reward the man.
[X] Provide more land to Harpos so that he may build his fortress. He has proven himself a good and loyal subject, and if we do not reward good and loyal subjects, what kind of masters are we? A dog who is beaten when he is good and given treats when he is bad is not useful to anyone.
We've already gave the Lucani a Casus Belli against us, right now we need a defense from their predations. While I worry at the growing power of Sannapee, and would rather divide the land between the two. I recognize the defensive realities of our position. Also, we need to show our grace to one who has helped, and show that we reward those Barbaroi who show loyalty.
[X] Provide more land to Harpos so that he may build his fortress. He has proven himself a good and loyal subject, and if we do not reward good and loyal subjects, what kind of masters are we? A dog who is beaten when he is good and given treats when he is bad is not useful to anyone.
[X] Provide more land to Harpos so that he may build his fortress. He has proven himself a good and loyal subject, and if we do not reward good and loyal subjects, what kind of masters are we? A dog who is beaten when he is good and given treats when he is bad is not useful to anyone.
We need to get on that Stone Wall as the next thing. I don't want SURPRISE LUCANI REVENGE to suddenly burn the city down.
[X] Provide more land to Harpos so that he may build his fortress. He has proven himself a good and loyal subject, and if we do not reward good and loyal subjects, what kind of masters are we? A dog who is beaten when he is good and given treats when he is bad is not useful to anyone.
[X] Provide more land to Harpos so that he may build his fortress. He has proven himself a good and loyal subject, and if we do not reward good and loyal subjects, what kind of masters are we? A dog who is beaten when he is good and given treats when he is bad is not useful to anyone.
[X] Provide an equal amount of land around Azetion to both Harpos and the Canosans to maintain the principle of equality between the Peuketii cities. What is loyalty among barbaroi? They cannot be trusted with such a power imbalance.
Skantarios the Hoplite says:
"I distrust Harpos. He skulks about our city, braying his song to all who would hear- is that not suspicious, in and of itself? Ought we reward him for the poison he whispers into the ears of our people, so that we might mistaken a barely-caged wolf for a loyal dog? Harpos showed us no great loyalty in these past few days. His actions- and our acceptance of them- have only sown future grief between our people and the Lucani, or so great Drako has indicated, and I am of like mind as he.
Loyalty from a barbaroi is a farce, and the wisest course of action is to keep them turned against themselves. If we trust Harpos, and elevate him above the Canosans, we will surely come to regret it. "
