So, I had a thought on another thread, I wanted to repeat somewhere for more general World of Darkness discussion: If Vampires, Werewolves, Spirits, Ghosts, etc are not affected by Paradox or Consensus Reality in any way, does that mean the only thing that's truly, objectively real in the World of Darkness is monsters?

Paradox is human-only

Cats, Dogs, Trees, and etc do not experience paradox

It is more accurate to say that Monsters do not experience paradox because they have stopped being human.
 
Paradox is human-only

Cats, Dogs, Trees, and etc do not experience paradox

It is more accurate to say that Monsters do not experience paradox because they have stopped being human.
This isn't true--certain monsters do experience Paradox, in the form of Disbelief. This is why unicorns, dragons, and the like can only survive in special reality zones or in the Umbra. They were driven from their former homes by weaponized disbelief. Interestingly, in addition to Fera, vampires, spirits, hunters, mummies, et cetera, M20 says that aliens are not subject to Disbelief either.

Anyway, my hypothesis is that the Consensus is an artificial construct, created as part of an evil plot. For most of history it did not exist, and it has gradually been strengthening and affecting more things over time. My reasoning:

1. Creating Consensus distracts mages from actually doing the hard work of improving the world materially, in favor of just trying to convert people to their ideology. For instance, if Consensus is potent, you don't need to reduce carbon emissions to stop global warming. You just need to convince people that global warming doesn't exist.
2. There are alternative routes to magic, such as sorcery. Mages like to explain these as "mythic threads," but this makes no sense. If they are established enough in the Consensus that an ordinary person can do them, mages should be able to do them as well, just like how a mage can use a cell phone. Instead, they can't. If a mage tries, despite doing the exact same thing as a sorcerer, their magic incurs Paradox. There are no rules for sorcery interacting with reality zones, despite the fact that if they're mythic threads they should. Furthermore, there are rules in M20 Sorcerer for creating new sorcerous paths, and "convince people that it's possible" isn't part of it. Several paths do not bear any resemblance to anything from folklore either; what folklore is there about transferring storms from the underworld to the world of the living to calm ghosts?
3. The Time of Judgment scenario focusing on Nephandi tried to emphasize that there are no simple answers and anything that appears to be a simple answer is actually a trap. While changing people's minds is hard, "if we all agree, we can will utopia into existence" is still much easier than the work of actually constructing a better society from the ground up.
4. Aliens aren't affected by Consensus (the book suggests that their vulnerabilities may be the effects of Consensus, but it's a possibility at most). While some may argue that this is because people sort of believe in them, by that logic they should suffer ill effects in reality zones where people don't believe in them, and aliens with clearly supernatural abilities should probably receive some sort of penalty. Creatures such as Bigfoot are affected by Consensus despite a large number of people believing in them too. It makes more sense if, being outsiders, Consensus just hasn't had time to affect aliens.
5. Consensus is suspiciously good at genocide. Countless intelligent species have been driven extinct or nearly extinct or driven from their homes because of it, and it allows one civilization to make another civilization's basis for existence cease to exist. Consensus often gets seen as a potentially liberating thing in Mage... but should such a terrible weapon exist?
 
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You know one take on W5 I saw is an answer to a question by WtE's main author:


View: https://www.tumblr.com/songoftrillium/759662928540614656/so-if-you-received-a-pitch-to-write-a-w5-adventure?source=share

Even the 'twisted upbringing flaw' reflects exactly that: a Garou who was only offered a highly distorted view of the Garou and needs to undergo extensive deprogramming.

Playing with the 'unreality' idea of the W5 universe crossing over to WtE, there's a Pentex version of Werewolf: the Apocalypse they put out that almost hilariously features a lot of aspects of the w5 verse. Imagine a game setting where Pentex did, in fact, release their version of Werewolf (Lycanthrope: the Rapture). Canonically it was never released, but maybe in an alt universe iIt became a household name like D&D. Suddenly, you have a fuckton of Lost Cubs who believe that game world is real and begin reaching out to work with the makers (the 'fuck everyone' elders of w5) who are looking to trap the players in increasingly amoral missions until it becomes imperative for the player characters to go 'no fucking way' and start looking around themselves with the intention to see through the ruse (and you'd have to work with the players that they expect the subversion.)

In short W5 is a Pentax psi op and having the players trying to educate the misguided pups is a vable idea for a game.

To paraphrase someone from the Onyx Path Forums, W5's message can be interpreted as "the current situation is the fault of the radicals--so the only solution is to kill the radicals, because while they mean well, they're too stupid."

To be fair I'd actually saw a W5 game at least try to frame the issue with more nuance by presenting it as a balancing act for a garou as they desire for violent action and the wisdom to know when they should strike, also they basically replaced W5's two doom bars with Forsaken 2e's Harmony bar.

Yeah, I did a big overhaul of the morality system too, replaced the two trackers with a single one, hope, which at one end leaves the garou complacent and unable to imagine a better world, while the other end describes iconoclastic and zealous Garou who can't imagine leaving the world as it is


Said game is here: @zedalpha in Werewolf: the Apocalypse community

You just have to look in the comments. Unforutartly some of them have been deleted but there's still some interesting stuff in this variant of the W5 setting.
 
It's not just you, on either count. W5 is also weird regarding the Cult of Fenris, because while they're low-key bigoted in the published source material and the development process had them going full Nazi and wiping out Younger Brother (because two Native American tribes was "too many," apparently), W5 repeatedly indicates their real problem is that they're "too radical." While W5 presents the Cult of Fenris as often being white supremacists, they're supposed to not all be white supremacists. But as a group they're supposed to be lost to hauglosk, which is basically when Garou get too angry and get too zealous and start believing that the "ends justify the means."

The problem is that what they're too zealous about is... stopping the end of the world. And "too zealous" seems to mean "they'll blow up a pipeline." W5 seems to want you to care about saving the planet, but not enough to actually do anything about it. To paraphrase someone from the Onyx Path Forums, W5's message can be interpreted as "the current situation is the fault of the radicals--so the only solution is to kill the radicals, because while they mean well, they're too stupid."

(This was someone defending W5, by the way.)

W5 seems to present eco-fascism (which is what the Cult of Fenris seems to be intended to be) as "environmentalists who care too much." And unlike dedicating yourself to a force of corruption, you can't come back from caring too much. And it's not clear what Garou who aren't in the Cult actually should be doing to prevent destruction... W5 seems to want Garou to act like mundane environmental activists who lobby politicians and stuff, but that's not really working well IRL and Garou can't contribute much to these causes that mundane humans can't. It's a fundamentally ridiculous set-up that seems more driven by the creator's dislike of radical politics and W:tA than anything else. Garou are really good at direct action and the game has had them do stuff more clever and complex than "murder blend random loggers" for decades. Let them do that. Give me Garou sneaking into pipeline construction sites and sabotaging machinery while purifying tainted water; starting PCs can do that.

This is probably why, among Werewolf: the Apocalypse fans, W5 has been rejected even by people who were looking forward to it because they were hoping it would fix the many things that did not age well since the 1990s. Instead, most people have said, "Hmm, maybe we should go back to Revised."
Damn - I thought it was just an overreaction to the rise of the far right.... But it turns out it's a message of reformism and conformism. This is the worst thing that's ever happened to the World of Darkness.... even taking into account the Spawn of Belial. And Assamites - in fact, if you have a basic understanding of Islam. The fact is that Islam (like Judaism) prohibits the consumption of human blood. Of course, in the Islamic legal field there is a "Principle of Necessity", which allows followers to consume haram food for the sake of survival - but the cult of vampire-diabrilists contradicts all conceivable forms of Islam. Okay, there are still setites... But I like the old version more than the new edition, so it's the lesser of two evils. But even this is better than the new edition of Werewolves.
 
Damn - I thought it was just an overreaction to the rise of the far right.... But it turns out it's a message of reformism and conformism.

Yeah I think W5 is basically what Pentex views the garou as a bunch of reactionary activists who dear intrude on our problems with out dated methods that's too brutish for our "enlightened civilization".

Which is why I think the whole thing is a psi-op and possbily even WoD's version of the S3 plan.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKl6WjfDqYA

Also this part of the reason why WtE's author actually started this project. They don't like what W5 represents and decided to write this project as an alterative.



View: https://songoftrillium.tumblr.com/post/740386433281425408/the-release-of-werewolf-the-apocalypse-5th

The release of Werewolf: the Apocalypse 5th Edition has evoked a sense of urgent inspiration in me. I found the news inspiring because it marks the launch of a new product that rings so close to the original game in which its new premises instantly evoke a lost-world setting perfect for new players to uncover through revelation. And with it, a sense of urgency that a large chunk of the game's horror pathos and cultural representation will be lost in lieu of chronicles centered around direct action, high entertainment, and transactional resolution.

First and foremost, I applaud the efforts of anyone wanting to excise Werewolf: the Apocalypse, and it's fandom, of it's toxic player base that has festered far too long. Anyone taking that on isn't blind to something that is both wonderful and incredibly problematic, and it requires a collaborative effort to address meaningfully. It means being willing to internalize hard and profoundly uncomfortable truths.

When I look at the prior editions, I consider its inherent value and feel that the things that made the original editions of Werewolf so special to me don't entirely align with a large portion of it's old player base. This is not for those players. In some ways my aim with this is small, with the understanding my target audience is also small, and this space exists for them.
 
Yeah I think W5 is basically what Pentex views the garou as a bunch of reactionary activists who dear intrude on our problems with out dated methods that's too brutish for our "enlightened civilization".

Which is why I think the whole thing is a psi-op and possbily even WoD's version of the S3 plan.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKl6WjfDqYA

Also this part of the reason why WtE's author actually started this project. They don't like what W5 represents and decided to write this project as an alterative.



View: https://songoftrillium.tumblr.com/post/740386433281425408/the-release-of-werewolf-the-apocalypse-5th

Frankly speaking, I don't quite like the wording chosen by the author - it's better to hide your desire for revision (even if it's outright deceit), otherwise you can prematurely scare away the established base. Or create a product that is not related but inspired.
 
I mean, I genuinely wonder who is out there buying W5 products at all. It must appeal to someone but I confess I don't really get the appeal of a version of WtA that hates everything about WtA.
 
It's a new edition so people unfamiliar with the game line pick it up, mostly. Especially with Hunter: the Parenting driving more people towards WoD and Paradox's push to market their products. I'm on the White Wolf subreddit and we get a lot of people asking about the system or setting who have clearly never played Werewolf: the Apocalypse before. There are also a very small number of people who are familiar with the game line, hated it, and tried W5. Or at least I presume they tried W5; mostly they show up in arguments about how it's good that W5 downplayed animal born or made the Get all evil or got rid of Kinfolk.
 
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To be fair I did see some people genuinely liking w5. Like the session I found on tumblr:

@zedalpha in Werewolf: the Apocalypse community

So my W5 campaign has gone on for ten sessions now and my players are having a blast. I'm managing (so far) to make this more of a sequel to the good ol' legacy lore than a shitty reboot of it. The o…

Granted that's after they heavily modified the mancanics and lore. Like I've already mentioned how they've stole Forsaken 2e harmony bar

For example this version of W5 actually did include ties into the past editions and do provide an explanation for why things got so bad.

See apparently the state of umbra in W5 is explained as the result of a combo of wyrm apparently or at lest some aspect of it took advantage of the chaous caused by the week of nightmares to escape the weavers prison to run amok in the umbra and the garou enacting a rite to cut off parts of the umbra to ensure that the wyrm doesn't completely take over the umbra

The Malady isn't just climate change, though the Garou of my chronicle have come to use the term to mean that; it's the Umbra breaking into the nightmarish WtF-style eternal spirit wirlds that it is in W5. Lore-wise, this is tied into the Week of Nightmares. The final battle talked about in Shattered Nation--the one where Jonas Albrecht broke the Silver Crown over Zyzhak's head and shattered the nation--happened around the same time or just before a few packs of Garou performed some kind of 'doomsday rite' that broke the Umbra and largely cut the material world off from it.

Of course a rite as far-reaching as that won't have some major side effects which really screwed up all the tribes...

Spirit pacts lost their power. Garou lost their Gnosis, or most of it. Umbral realms dissolved and reformed at random. Spirit hierarchies shattered. Moon bridges collapsed. Garou stuck in the umbra either never came out or came out far away from where they went in, scattering the tribes far from their ancestral lands.

*That* was The Malady.

Some Tribes lost access to their Patron Spirits and found new ones (namely the Black Furies, Glass Walkers, and Get of Fenris, who became the Blazing Hearts then eventually went back to being the Cult of Fenris). Very few Garou had their First Changes, and most of the ones who did went kinda mad.

Basically not did all the tribes lost the logistical support network but some tribe actually lost access to they Patron Spirits except for the Get who managed to recontact it which backfired horribly.

The Cult of Fenris came about after the Blazing Hearts--whose 'interim' patron was Wildfire--performed a rite to recontact their old patron. Great Fenris's unbridled rage, self-hatred, isolation, madness, and sense of survivor's guilt in the age of Apocalypse spread through his former Tribe, turning them into the Hauglosk-afflicted fascist bastards present in W5.

Though I'd imagine that some of the Get retain the Blazing Hearts identity to avoid they former patron's madness, which is also a neat way to make sure that a players Get characters isn't rendered unplayable.

Not to mention the matter of kinfolks.

The upshot of all that is that being a Garou isn't hereditary any longer; Kinfolk aren't any more. Nobody is immune to Delirium.

So yeah the final side effect of the rite is that becoming a garou is unmoored from bloodlines. Effectively rendering kinfolks nonexistent in this version of W5.

Hell the comment suggest that there's no frist changes for a period after the ritural and the players are one of the first garou to change in decacdes.
 
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Much like how the Hannibal TV series is a game of changeling, I believe that the fast and the furious series is a mage game from the perspective of non-mages
 
Any way here' s a fun tidbit of WtE lore.


And the Text:
To say the tribe is made up of feminists is like
saying the ocean is made up of drops of water. The tribe
itself has been philosophizing about feminism and the
role of women in the world since before humanity
stopped using stone tools. It is the living breathing
essence of feminism, and as such, has three opinions
for every single member. Each Fury, regardless of sex or
gender, refers to themselves as women and socially uses
she/her pronouns; hence the phrase 'All Furies are
Women'.
This is an extension of living their
philosophies and inherently challenges any patriarchal
assumptions of those who come into contact with
them, putting their mission at the forefront of their
very being

And yes in WtE a non crinos born male could join the black fury now as long as they adopt feminine pronouns and identity thanks to the Freebooters coming into power within the tribe.
 
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