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It Belongs to a Museum

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Broccoliccoli said:
The flavor of Aelsabrim's Patron path is the Citadel turning from a literal citadel into an actual colony, so her agenda would likely tie into supporting that.
History could totally fit, for example, since what she's building is very much a mirror of ancient glories for the elves. Cathai or Ind could also fit, since the colony would stand to profit massively from an increased interest in goods from that direction. Or maybe something focused on the mysterious magical side of Lustria, to tempt further investments into the colony from the nerds.
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Then of course is her animal shipping company—the museum could act as a form of advertisement for her. "Purchase from Fallenstar Express Animal Couriers and you too could be the owner of one of the fine creatures on display at Pahtsekhen's museum".
 
@Boney, specifically in regards to the land that'd become Solland, could the Imperial Tribes have pushed Belthani out because of religious reasons? The Imperial Tribes had Taal and Rhya, while the Belthani had a direct competitor in Ahalt.

(Incidentally, this'd mean the modern day Vaults humans could be Ahalt-worshippers, possibly participating in the grobkul for religious reasons.)
 
Broccoliccoli said:
The flavor of Aelsabrim's Patron path is the Citadel turning from a literal citadel into an actual colony, so her agenda would likely tie into supporting that.
History could totally fit, for example, since what she's building is very much a mirror of ancient glories for the elves. Cathai or Ind could also fit, since the colony would stand to profit massively from an increased interest in goods from that direction. Or maybe something focused on the mysterious magical side of Lustria, to tempt further investments into the colony from the nerds.
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She seemed quite upset by the idea that elven souls could be stranded here, so as her grief fades and she starts to empathize with others who have gone through the same thing, I could imagine her wanting to construct a proper Necropolis. A place for local elven souls to reside in, and gather their strength for the difficult journey back to Ulthuan.

Burial Architecture, Death (Shyish) Magic, and Nehekhara would also make sense as potential patron interests, if that becomes a project in her colony.
 
Andres said:
@Boney, specifically in regards to the land that'd become Solland, could the Imperial Tribes have pushed Belthani out because of religious reasons? The Imperial Tribes had Taal and Rhya, while the Belthani had a direct competitor in Ahalt.

(Incidentally, this'd mean the modern day Vaults humans could be Ahalt-worshippers, possibly participating in the grobkul for religious reasons.)
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Where are you seeing that the Belthani worshipped Ahalt? Tome of Salvation at least says it was the Menogoths (founders of Solland).

Even assuming that was the case though, the Cults of Taal and Rhya are specifically mentioned to have killed the Priests of Ahalt, not his followers. As Boney said, new converts are more useful than corpses.
 
Andres said:
@Boney, specifically in regards to the land that'd become Solland, could the Imperial Tribes have pushed Belthani out because of religious reasons? The Imperial Tribes had Taal and Rhya, while the Belthani had a direct competitor in Ahalt.

(Incidentally, this'd mean the modern day Vaults humans could be Ahalt-worshippers, possibly participating in the grobkul for religious reasons.)
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It's not impossible, but that's not normally how tribal polytheism thinks. Pantheons have plenty of room for overlapping spheres, and they might jostle for supremacy but it normally doesn't leap straight to genocide. The Taalites and the Rhyans aren't trying to wipe each other out. It's a lot easier to make it work than it is to exterminate an entire people. Taal is the God of the Untamed Wilds and Rhya is the Goddess of Nature's Bounty. Ulric is the God of Savage War while Myrmidia is the Goddess of Strategic War. Concepts are flexible and letting a new God in doesn't mean you have to split the concept in half, it means the concept grows from the added complexity and new perspectives.
 
Boney said:
It's not impossible, but that's not normally how tribal polytheism thinks. Pantheons have plenty of room for overlapping spheres, and they might jostle for supremacy but it normally doesn't leap straight to genocide. The Taalites and the Rhyans aren't trying to wipe each other out. It's a lot easier to make it work than it is to exterminate an entire people. Taal is the God of the Untamed Wilds and Rhya is the Goddess of Nature's Bounty. Ulric is the God of Savage War while Myrmidia is the Goddess of Strategic War. Concepts are flexible and letting a new God in doesn't mean you have to split the concept in half, it means the concept grows from the added complexity and new perspectives.
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To add a real example, Ancient Greeks had two gods of war in real life (Ares and Athena, savage and strategic war like the WH example posted above) and several of their other gods have been on and off gods of war depending on the city and era as well.
 
[X] [STAFF] Lie of Aenarion

[X] [AELSA] Governor

Ah, an elf teenager receptive to the words of a well proven teacher.

We're totally making a new supervillain
 
[X] [STAFF] Stranded Valkyrie
[X] [STAFF] Black Lion

More knowledge about Lustria is very useful for our exhibits, especially potential knowledge about the Old Ones. We've got a lot of jungle beasts, so expanding the information we have on them is very important.

[X] [AELSA] Princess

I want those salvage rights. There's not much more to it than that. We've got a crew of undead that can salvage wrecks and sunken cities, so this plays to our strengths.
 
Mopman43 said:
Where are you seeing that the Belthani worshipped Ahalt? Tome of Salvation at least says it was the Menogoths (founders of Solland).

Even assuming that was the case though, the Cults of Taal and Rhya are specifically mentioned to have killed the Priests of Ahalt, not his followers. As Boney said, new converts are more useful than corpses.
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Tome of Salvation has Hieronymous of Nuln saying that some scholars believe Ahalt was the Menogoths' patron, but that it (among other tribal patron theories) were guesswork at best. As for its veracity, I think it's dubious. If Ahalt was the Menogoths' patron, then who was killing his priests? Religious minorities within the Menogoths? A different tribe entirely? Did the Cult of Taal and Rhya overtake Ahalt in popularity within the Menogoths and then persecute the Cult of Ahalt?

Also, regarding who the Taalites and Rhyans killed, WFRP 2e: Sigmar's Heirs page 100:
In the early years, priests of Taal and Rhya, who were determined to unify the faiths, hunted Ahalt's worshippers. Eventually even the most zealous of these priests gave up the hunt, convinced that Ahalt's worshippers were no more.
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They hunted worshippers, not just priests, though Hieronymous' writeup in Tome of Salvation does say that Ahalt's "priesthood was slaughtered by Taal's cult for not submitting to it".

Boney said:
It's not impossible, but that's not normally how tribal polytheism thinks. Pantheons have plenty of room for overlapping spheres, and they might jostle for supremacy but it normally doesn't leap straight to genocide. The Taalites and the Rhyans aren't trying to wipe each other out. It's a lot easier to make it work than it is to exterminate an entire people. Taal is the God of the Untamed Wilds and Rhya is the Goddess of Nature's Bounty. Ulric is the God of Savage War while Myrmidia is the Goddess of Strategic War. Concepts are flexible and letting a new God in doesn't mean you have to split the concept in half, it means the concept grows from the added complexity and new perspectives.
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So that means either 2e was providing less than optimal lore, or there was something abnormal going on. The Cult of Taal and Rhya engaged in genocide here where they didn't with other gods, and the reason is a mystery. I doubt it's because the Cult of Ahalt was too evil given that Sigmar's Heirs say he only got this evil because of the persecution.
 
Andres said:
So that means either 2e was providing less than optimal lore, or there was something abnormal going on. The Cult of Taal and Rhya engaged in genocide here where they didn't with other gods, and the reason is a mystery. I doubt it's because the Cult of Ahalt was too evil given that Sigmar's Heirs say he only got this evil because of the persecution.
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"One of these ancient gods, Ahalt the Drinker, was a spirit of the hunt and fertility who hid himself away with just a few worshippers to sustain him rather than submit to the authority of Taal and Rhya."

Definitely something abnormal. That's not a normal reaction to the arrival of new gods. The strictures of the Cult of Ahalt also speak of some sort of betrayal, the known history between the Cults don't have anything that could reasonably be described that way.
 
Could be a turn in the general consensus on rites and rituals and how the tribes viewed them. This is speculation and I may be misunderstanding the timeline here but Ahalt could have coexisted with the other gods in the early part of their time when more...violent ceremonies were acceptable and when the turn happened. Some cults accepted it phasing out these practices while some didnt it and became proscribed.
 
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Whynot09 said:
Could be a turn in the general consensus on rites and rituals and how the tribes viewed them. This is speculation and I may be misunderstanding the timeline here but Ahalt could have coexisted with the other gods in the early part of their time when more...violent ceremonies were acceptable and when the turn happened. Some cults accepted it phasing out these practices while some didnt it and became proscribed.
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That, and perhaps as time went on, certain gods' spheres were simply no longer things that society held dear anymore. Such as with Gunndred, God of Cattle Rustling (and blackmail, more recently), who could well have held a venerated place among the tribes of the Reik Basin prior to unification by Sigmar, but fell out of favour as it was deemed that stealing your neighbours' livestock and mutilating their drovers and shepherds was not conducive to them showing up for the next battle to help you repel an Orc warband.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
That, and perhaps as time went on, certain gods' spheres were simply no longer things that society held dear anymore. Such as with Gunndred, God of Cattle Rustling (and blackmail, more recently), who could well have held a venerated place among the tribes of the Reik Basin prior to unification by Sigmar, but fell out of favour as it was deemed that stealing your neighbours' livestock and mutilating their drovers and shepherds was not conducive to them showing up for the next battle to help you repel an Orc warband.
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I wonder if that was the case for Guvaur. Given the bull-iconography and general bull related decriptors seems possible that Guvaur was the patron-god of the Udoses. Though if that's true, then I wonder how He got reduced in status from the patron-god of a major tribe to a minor god.
 
[X] [STAFF] Lie of Aenarion

New student get. Bahr and Ibn are both old enough to look after themselves. Time to take a fresh pupil.

[X] [AELSA] Businesswoman

This one's just practicality. More exhibits for the Lustrian Wing! More skeletons for the dioramas!
 
Boney said:
"One of these ancient gods, Ahalt the Drinker, was a spirit of the hunt and fertility who hid himself away with just a few worshippers to sustain him rather than submit to the authority of Taal and Rhya."

Definitely something abnormal. That's not a normal reaction to the arrival of new gods. The strictures of the Cult of Ahalt also speak of some sort of betrayal, the known history between the Cults don't have anything that could reasonably be described that way.
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WFRP 4e: Deft Steps Light Fingers page 78 lists a few holy books of Taal. One of them is Rites of the Ancient Grove:
Rites of the Ancient Grove — The ritual descriptions recorded in this volume are a matter of some controversy in the cult. They were first set down by scribes in Talabheim and subsequently copied by hand for many generations. Many Taalites believe that rites should never be documented in writing but passed on by verbal tradition. Some forbidden copies include secretive rites which only the priests themselves attend. An apocryphal version has a whole chapter of rituals for Ahalt.
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This could be a hint about that "betrayal". Instead of or in addition to that, maybe it has something to do with this from SIgmar's Heirs p101:
The cult originated along the banks of the Upper Soll, around which grew the lost Grand Province of Solland. From there it has spread west into Wissenland and east as far as the borders of Sylvania. Never numerous, its members are hidden among the general populace in the towns, villages, and rural farmsteads of the far south of the Empire. A recent witch trial in Talabheim, however, had several people burned for crimes strongly resembling the worship of Ahalt, suggesting it is spreading north.
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You have a book first scribed in Talabheim with an apocryphal version that includes Ahalt, and also a recent witch trial in Talabheim.

The other thing of note DSLF introduces is "Arch-Druids of Ahalt". What's perhaps noteworthy is that neither Taal nor Rhya have druids despite being nature gods - priests, hierarchs, green watchers, but nothing called "druid". This is despite the idea of druids having existed in close proximity - Earth Mother druids existed until Teclis, and presumably there were druids of Ishernos, who's commonly believed to be an antecedent of Taal and Rhya. Maybe it's something to do with magic? The word "druid" doesn't necessarily mean magician, but it could be implying it.
 
thamuzz said:

View: https://youtu.be/AVNhKdFjr6g?si=aZShwXaa9nsUXXvC
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Eh... sort of? She definitely exists in this quest, since we could have recruited her for our museum. But the Total Warhammer 'continuity' isn't generally canonical to the Boneyverse. This can be considered a good thing, because it means that Teclis hasn't already picked our island as the first target for his expeditionary army of battlemages from Ulthuan, to serve as a foothold for the rest of his planned operations in Lustria.
 
Blackshard said:
Eh... sort of? She definitely exists in this quest, since we could have recruited her for our museum. But the Total Warhammer 'continuity' isn't generally canonical to the Boneyverse. This can be considered a good thing, because it means that Teclis hasn't already picked our island as the first target for his expeditionary army of battlemages from Ulthuan, to serve as a foothold for the rest of his planned operations in Lustria.
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Sounds like we lost the chance to have a very useful patron.
Or have we....
Boney said:
[ ] [STAFF] Lie of Aenarion
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Blackshard said:
Eh... sort of? She definitely exists in this quest, since we could have recruited her for our museum. But the Total Warhammer 'continuity' isn't generally canonical to the Boneyverse. This can be considered a good thing, because it means that Teclis hasn't already picked our island as the first target for his expeditionary army of battlemages from Ulthuan, to serve as a foothold for the rest of his planned operations in Lustria.
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A lot of people, places, units, etc, from/emphasized in Total Warhammer are often grabbed to use by Boney, just not necessarily what they're actually doing at that moment.

I mean, the Tide of Skjold that we hired are also from TW. So is Luthor's ship being 'The Dread Abyssal'.
 
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