Army of Liberty: a Fantasy Revolutionary Warfare Quest

Photomajig said:

Army of the Centre Morale decreased by -3 (-2 from Defeat, -1 from Standard Lost), now 1.

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Say, I'm not sure if it really matters, but shouldn't the Army of the Centre have lost another point of Morale from one of their units (the 75th Elven Artillery) Surrendering? Unless that's also been changed.

That would put their Morale all the way down to 0 instead of 1.

Pinniped said:

This is again the part I do not understand, and why I asked the QM for some clarification on why/if defending the Southern bank is not easier than the Northern bank . Because by my math, 10k troops could very well be able to hold a river crossing against 40k troops, since crossing rivers while actively under fire is extremely risky and costly. What prevents us from attacking the enemy once the first 10k of their troops are crossing, caught with their figurative pants down?

However, I do admit I might be missing something here? Maybe the river is shallow enough that crossing it away from the main crossing is not too difficult?

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I... don't think that's how it works? Like, I get why you'd think that, but I don't know if it particularly works that way in the 18th century.

As far as it goes, I presume unless the enemy is incompetent, the first people across would be scouts to make sure things are safe, and then they would come in with others. So us lying waiting for an ambush seems like it'd be instantly detected and then they'd just initiate a race to the next major crossing, a race they almost certainly would win with a head-start where we need to figure out if they're bluffing or not (because pretending to march one way, and then doubling back WOULD be clever) or so on, giving them the ability to then ford with hours or even as much as a day of time to manage it easily enough.

Like, you talk about "accepting the possibility of losing" and all, but also assume that we can just effortlessly 100% always move to perfectly counter an enemy that knows they can pin us down at the river and shank us in the back at a strategic level.

Chimeraguard said:

Say, I'm not sure if it really matters, but shouldn't the Army of the Centre have lost another point of Morale from one of their units (the 75th Elven Artillery) Surrendering? Unless that's also been changed.

That would put their Morale all the way down to 0 instead of 1.

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While it probably doesn't matter, it would be funny if that somehow tripped something.

If defending the river crossing isn't a big defensive advantage, what is the reason for spending time to go up to the river?

[X] March for the Raoille. Daurstein was only the first step of your grand plan. Norn is wide open for the taking. You'll march north, seize the bridge over the Raoille, and...
-[X] And hold the north bank. You'll establish a position on the north bank of the river, seizing perhaps the most important strategic crossing of the front. You can make it hell for the Nornish Army to try and reclaim their beloved natural barrier. The Convention's orders were not to operate north of the Raoille, but they'll have to understand the strategic necessity of a position on the far side. 5 days. 2 Army Actions allowed.

[X] Handle it yourself. The Fifth killed them, so the Fifth can clean them up, too. The men might grumble, but there's no risk of more elves escaping your pickets. Army of the Centre may recover fewer elven Casualties. Army Morale falls by 1. Opinion of Arné and Raka Durand in the local region may improve.

[x] Allow the burials.
[x] Dig in at Daurstein.

The Laurent said:

I... don't think that's how it works? Like, I get why you'd think that, but I don't know if it particularly works that way in the 18th century.

As far as it goes, I presume unless the enemy is incompetent, the first people across would be scouts to make sure things are safe, and then they would come in with others. So us lying waiting for an ambush seems like it'd be instantly detected and then they'd just initiate a race to the next major crossing, a race they almost certainly would win with a head-start where we need to figure out if they're bluffing or not (because pretending to march one way, and then doubling back WOULD be clever) or so on, giving them the ability to then ford with hours or even as much as a day of time to manage it easily enough.

Like, you talk about "accepting the possibility of losing" and all, but also assume that we can just effortlessly 100% always move to perfectly counter an enemy that knows they can pin us down at the river and shank us in the back at a strategic level.



While it probably doesn't matter, it would be funny if that somehow tripped something.

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The goal isn't to ambush them, but also their army is not going to be notably faster than ours. If they find us at one crossing and decide to move to another, we can move parallel to them and still attack them while they are crossing, unless we just have a total cock-up of scouting. Maybe we dont have prepared positions but they're still the ones with their boots in the mud.

Nerdorama said:

The goal isn't to ambush them, but also their army is not going to be notably faster than ours. If they find us at one crossing and decide to move to another, we can move parallel to them and still attack them while they are crossing, unless we just have a total cock-up of scouting. Maybe we dont have prepared positions but they're still the ones with their boots in the mud.

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I thought Drill had a narrative connection with how fast an army can be pushed? Am I just making that up? I might be, to be honest, though I know that Drill effects positive and negative effects on March.

Pinniped said:

Because by my math, 10k troops could very well be able to hold a river crossing against 40k troops, since crossing rivers while actively under fire is extremely risky and costly.

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Not sure on that math. Napoleon forced the bridge at Lodi with 15,000 men against the defending 10,000 men strong Austrian rearguard.

Likewise Kilmaine's Advanced Guard of 6,000 men took the bridge at Borghetto despite some 3,000 defenders.

The Laurent said:

I thought Drill had a narrative connection with how fast an army can be pushed? Am I just making that up? I might be, to be honest, though I know that Drill effects positive and negative effects on March.

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If there is one it's buried in two dozen pages of rules discussion that I'm not reading, so that's a QM question. All that said, it's certainly possible that they could get positive events, or sacrifice drill or bodies in a forced march, to try and outrun us, but I don't think you are quite grasping the massive undertaking that is getting tens of thousands of men, horses, and pounds of gunpowder across a major river without a bridge. This isn't a simple days work you can rush through and expect to have a coherent army on the other side.

The Laurent said:

As far as it goes, I presume unless the enemy is incompetent, the first people across would be scouts to make sure things are safe, and then they would come in with others. So us lying waiting for an ambush seems like it'd be instantly detected and then they'd just initiate a race to the next major crossing, a race they almost certainly would win with a head-start where we need to figure out if they're bluffing or not (because pretending to march one way, and then doubling back WOULD be clever) or so on, giving them the ability to then ford with hours or even as much as a day of time to manage it easily enough.

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The Laurent said:

Like, you talk about "accepting the possibility of losing" and all, but also assume that we can just effortlessly 100% always move to perfectly counter an enemy that knows they can pin us down at the river and shank us in the back at a strategic level.

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Oh I agree, a competent enemy would never attempt to force a crossing with our army in scouting range, unless they outnumber us very heavily. Which is exactly why I want to take positions at the Southern Bank, forcing them to go the long way around is a win in my book.

This is because it does feel to me like you are underestimating how slow and costly them going offroad to find another river crossing would be. That kind of maneuver with an army is not risk-free, not with us nearby. Unless they leave a strong blocking force on the road it would allow us to cross the river, move north and cut their supply lines while they are looking for the river crossing.

Nerdorama said:

The goal isn't to ambush them, but also their army is not going to be notably faster than ours. If they find us at one crossing and decide to move to another, we can move parallel to them and still attack them while they are crossing, unless we just have a total cock-up of scouting. Maybe we dont have prepared positions but they're still the ones with their boots in the mud.

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To be fair, I do think Nornish well-drilled armies have been mentioned to usually move faster than ours. But I still think such a move would leave Engelsburg and their supply lines too exposed.

What I'd expect to happen is that they would see us at the crossing, and decide to wait for reinforcements which may be a long time coming. The Convention can give us new orders or sue for peace in the meantime.

It's s worth noting that the curvature of the Raoille works against us if marching to the other crossing. The path we would have to take is significantly longer than as the crow flies because we're on the convex side. And they can use highways, while we'd be making an overland march. If they chose to go that way, getting there quick enough to take up positions and prevent a crossing entirely would be very difficult.

Pinniped said:

This is again the part I do not understand, and why I asked the QM for some clarification on why/if defending the Southern bank is not easier than the Northern bank . Because by my math, 10k troops could very well be able to hold a river crossing against 40k troops, since crossing rivers while actively under fire is extremely risky and costly. What prevents us from attacking the enemy once the first 10k of their troops are crossing, caught with their figurative pants down?

However, I do admit I might be missing something here? Maybe the river is shallow enough that crossing it away from the main crossing is not too difficult?

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Crossing a bridge is very dangerous yeah but if it's as bad as a 4 to 1 advantage, they probably could just ram assault columns down the span until something breaks. "We have reserves "

More seriously, a contested crossing is an ugly thing but it's not like the enemy would have zero options. If the Raoille was a minor river they could exchange musket fire with us across it and use their weight of numbers that way. As it's a Rhine-like big strategic river, though, it's probably wide enough to prevent that. But they'd definitely be able to use their artillery at the very least. Its effect would be weakened by fortifications but they could keep up a pre-attack softening bombardment for basically as long as they've got ammo. And you can't concentrate the entire defending army's musket fire on the bridge, there's just not enough room to fit everybody in front of it, so some charges will get through and have to be repulsed up close.

That's a big part of why I'm so hesitant about leaving Guillory to defend on his own. A bridge battle could potentially swing on a handful of 1v1-ish melee engagements deciding whether the attackers can break through and start deploying on the other side or not, and while Guillory doesn't seem to be a clown, he only has Trained infantry to rely on in those pivotal moments.

To be fair though, yeah, a bridge is still a very solid defensive position. You see a lot of them taken in the historical record in part because the ones that couldn't be taken weren't attacked. A lot of bridge battles were just rearguard actions where the bridge was a convenient place for a much smaller force to hold for a while, force the enemy to go through all the motions of deploying the army and bringing up the guns and such, just to waste a day before retreating.

The Laurent said:

If it's roughly equivalent to the IRL French Revolution, then no it isn't, not for decades, and we'd still be beyond telegraph range in the sense of having to send a letter or request to somewhere on Arne soil in order to get it passed along.

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Fun fact: yeah, the electric telegraph is still a long ways away, but the original device called the telegraph - the semaphore or optical telegraph - was invented a few years into the Revolution and used extensively by the French revolutionary governments + Napoleon himself.

Dutch said:

Not sure on that math. Napoleon forced the bridge at Lodi with 15,000 men against the defending 10,000 men strong Austrian rearguard.

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Eeh, not sure if that applies here, since based on my admittedly quick Wikipedia reading:
1. There were little defenses in place since the Austrian's were retreating across the river
2. The Austrians were exhausted and hungry due to a forced march and lack of supplies.
3. Napoleon's cavalry did cross the river at another location, threatening the Austrian flank.

NSchwerte said:

If defending the river crossing isn't a big defensive advantage, what is the reason for spending time to go up to the river?

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Just the things I can think of at the top of my head?

• Threaten the Army of the Center into uselessness. Forcing it to either stay cooped up in Engelsburg or retreat even further.
• Allow for us to apply the strategy of the central position regarding reinforcements coming down from the Waldpfad, with Guillory screening Trotha.
• At the same time. We sever enemy communications and supply from using the Waldpfad.
• Allows us to raid into the north bank of the Raoille in preparation for the rest of the campaign season. The less resources Norn's professionals have at their disposal the better.
• We provide Norn with a significant obstacle they need to deal with. Rather than allowing them to freely prepare to cross the river and devise an attack plan on Daurstein or Antreville (which we would have to guess at like we had to with the Armies of the West and Center), the bridgehead is dangerous and needs to be eliminated before more of our armies flood the gap. That makes the enemy more predictable for us.
• A better jumping-off point for either the next offensive or securing III. Army's flank.

Alright, here is what the vote tally is looking like. Looks like heading to the Raoille river and holding the North bank is winning by one vote.

[X] Handle it yourself. The Fifth killed them, so the Fifth can clean them up, too. The men might grumble, but there's no risk of more elves escaping your pickets. Army of the Centre may recover fewer elven Casualties. Army Morale falls by 1. Opinion of Arné and Raka Durand in the local region may improve.

[X] Handle it yourself. The Fifth killed them, so the Fifth can clean them up, too. The men might grumble, but there's no risk of more elves escaping your pickets. Army of the Centre may recover fewer elven Casualties. Army Morale falls by 1. Opinion of Arné and Raka Durand in the local region may improve.

[X] March for the Raoille. Daurstein was only the first step of your grand plan. Norn is wide open for the taking. You'll march north, seize the bridge over the Raoille, and...
-[X] And hold the north bank. You'll establish a position on the north bank of the river, seizing perhaps the most important strategic crossing of the front. You can make it hell for the Nornish Army to try and reclaim their beloved natural barrier. The Convention's orders were not to operate north of the Raoille, but they'll have to understand the strategic necessity of a position on the far side. 5 days. 2 Army Actions allowed.

[X] March for the Raoille. Daurstein was only the first step of your grand plan. Norn is wide open for the taking. You'll march north, seize the bridge over the Raoille, and...
-[X] And hold the south bank. You'll establish a position on the south bank of the river, daring the Nornish Army to come and try it. It's a good position to hold back any potential Nornish attack, and keeps the Convention happy with you. 4-5 days. 2 Army Actions allowed.

[X] March for the Raoille. Daurstein was only the first step of your grand plan. Norn is wide open for the taking. You'll march north, seize the bridge over the Raoille, and...
-[X] And hold the north bank. You'll establish a position on the north bank of the river, seizing perhaps the most important strategic crossing of the front. You can make it hell for the Nornish Army to try and reclaim their beloved natural barrier. The Convention's orders were not to operate north of the Raoille, but they'll have to understand the strategic necessity of a position on the far side. 5 days. 2 Army Actions allowed.

[X] Allow the burials. It is the done thing. It's not a matter of debate. Army of the Centre may recover more elven Casualties.

[x] Allow the burials. It is the done thing. It's not a matter of debate. Army of the Centre may recover more elven Casualties.

Don't want to evaporate our morale since that's directly linked to us being able to perform well, and so long as we're operating on foreign territory and there's no clear exit we're pursuing would like to also have the benefit of public opinion.

Sure, they get some elves back but like… a few of them, and they're ones we already proved ourselves able to kill. If we get free popularity for butchering these guys and letting them stand up then let's happily do it as many times as they'll come back for more.

Btw has the punchcard been invented

[X] Handle it yourself. The Fifth killed them, so the Fifth can clean them up, too. The men might grumble, but there's no risk of more elves escaping your pickets. Army of the Centre may recover fewer elven Casualties. Army Morale falls by 1. Opinion of Arné and Raka Durand in the local region may improve.

[X] March for the Raoille. Daurstein was only the first step of your grand plan. Norn is wide open for the taking. You'll march north, seize the bridge over the Raoille, and...
-[X] And hold the south bank. You'll establish a position on the south bank of the river, daring the Nornish Army to come and try it. It's a good position to hold back any potential Nornish attack, and keeps the Convention happy with you. 4-5 days. 2 Army Actions allowed.

The strategic benefit of the north bank is great but the diplomatic consideration is risky.

[X] March for the Raoille. Daurstein was only the first step of your grand plan. Norn is wide open for the taking. You'll march north, seize the bridge over the Raoille, and...
-[X] And hold the north bank. You'll establish a position on the north bank of the river, seizing perhaps the most important strategic crossing of the front. You can make it hell for the Nornish Army to try and reclaim their beloved natural barrier. The Convention's orders were not to operate north of the Raoille, but they'll have to understand the strategic necessity of a position on the far side. 5 days. 2 Army Actions allowed.

Red Rationalist said:

@Photomajig Question: What is the marching time for a well-drilled army between Sonneneck and the Ravoille banks? The map does make it seem a longer way than the 4-5 days we would take to go north, but Raka would presumably know the rough marching distance I am interested in.

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Perhaps 5 days? Moving through friendly territory, highly-Drilled and hungry for revenge, a Nornish army could do it in 4, perhaps even less if they push themselves, Raka can't estimate it exactly.

Pinniped said:

Huh, I did miss that. Now I am very confused since logically, the river crossing is a natural chokepoint, which does not exist on the North side. An army crossing a river was also vulnerable to attack, since it cannot set up a defensive line and has to split it's forces, with some on the North bank and some on the South bank.

Unless there is something that prevents us from setting up our defense right next to the river crossing, I do not understand how the Northern and Southern banks can be equally defensive. @Photomajig , could you elaborate on how this works?

The point about having to retreat across the river in case of a loss still holds, though. It also applies to the enemy (assuming we let them cross uncontested, which is what confuses me here...)

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There is no difference in the terrain of the field outside the river is what I meant. Yes, taking a position in the south means that the enemy will be forced to funnel through a narrow bridge to get to you, so that is a major defensive advantage. But the north bank allows you to be an active threat strategically, and if the enemy manages to dislodge you from there, they'll still have to cross the river and defeat you again on the other side (unless you suffer a total collapse and get encircled instead of organizing an orderly fighting withdrawal). It's defense in depth.

EagerListener said:

@Photomajig, when exactly is the election going to take place? And can soldiers vote by mail?

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I don't have the exact month on me now, but it's in the autumn. I'll get back to you on that. Soldiers can vote by mail for their home districts, yes, though they're unlikely to really know the candidates running.

The problem is that there is no finalized constitution to define how exactly the election will work. The Convention is supposed to do that, but they've recently gotten a bit sidetracked. One imagines it will look pretty Consular when it comes out, given the balance of power in the Convention.

@Photomajig A small thing: Our captured equipment doesn't account for the 75th Elv. Art. that surrendered. Could a surrendering artillery unit try to spike their guns, or would their guns be captured by default?

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Photomajig said:

x1 Field Artillery captured. x2 spiked Field Artillery captured (can be repaired).

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We had 3 artillery units that scattered, and one that surrendered.

Red Rationalist said:

@Photomajig A small thing: Our captured equipment doesn't account for the 75th Elv. Art. that surrendered. Could a surrendering artillery unit try to spike their guns, or would their guns be captured by default?

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We had 3 artillery units that scattered, and one that surrendered.

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They spiked their guns, the surrender doesn't factor into it. They were one of the arty that Scattered before the retcon.

[X] March for the Raoille. Daurstein was only the first step of your grand plan. Norn is wide open for the taking. You'll march north, seize the bridge over the Raoille, and...
-[X] And hold the south bank. You'll establish a position on the south bank of the river, daring the Nornish Army to come and try it. It's a good position to hold back any potential Nornish attack, and keeps the Convention happy with you. 4-5 days. 2 Army Actions allowed.