Shards of a Broken Sun [Megaten/Shugo Chara/Exalted]

Realistically, Amu's role would be whatever the playerbase wanted her to do. It is theoretically possible she could stay and listen and then the playerbase ends up voting for her to effectively stay out of it. That just seems unlikely if we're voting to stay and listen to begin with, because that would imply wanting a bigger slice of the pie in regards to Manticore.

Regardless of what Amu actually does when getting involved in this (whether in attending to the patients or actually participating in raids) it is going to take up a lot of time and mindshare. She can't gather and train allies outside if she's spending half her days in JPs facilities preparing for or dealing with the aftermath of raids on Manticore.

I feel she would be a lot more effective in the long run if she had her own group of trained friends outside JPs, that nobody knows about or expects to see coming. And those friends would certainly have a much better chance of surviving everything once the apocalypse happens, which is a general benefit to everyone.
I think Amu's under far too much scrutiny to actually stay under the radar like that, but having her own independent allies and resources would certainly be nice.

Here are most of my current thoughts on the matter, in no particular order:
  • Whatever vote wins, I don't think "fun action-adventure type story" is actually happening.
  • I would still probably be happier reading about Amu's adventures dealing with Not Manticore than I would be reading about Manticore.
  • After seeing how Saaya ended up, I don't want to leave JP's alone with the Manticore victims.
  • JP's is a valuable source of information and training resources, whether or not Amu gets involved with the Manticore issue.
  • I don't know how paying off Kana's XP debt would work, or what the limitations on that kind of thing are, and it's obviously not a spammable move, but that kind of thing is likely well beyond JP's capabilities.
  • I am unsure whether going with JP's or going independent would be better for Amu's personal access to allies and resources.
 
Another thing to keep in mind is, is that Manticore is not the only thing going on in the world. We actually have had some hints even in the vote options that there are other branches one can explore that might be significant in their own way. So if one goes all in on Manticore one can probably assume that one will lose getting in early on a fair few of those as well. So one is also trading the many currently unknown adventures that are probably out there vs more directly personally dealing with Manticore.

So there is a question of opportunity cost here, where one has to wonder how many opportunities one is losing elsewhere. Connections to potentially good to know people, other problems beyond Manticore. Being more there for Ami her little sister who might... no will get up to things in the dream world if not elsewhere. The questions on what might be going on in the wider psychic world are also not nothing. Also I can't help be at least a little concerned that to much dark stuff to quickly might not be the best for Amu's future mental development either.


I guess if one went the Manticore route one would get more opportunities in becoming really really good at mind healing though, if one wants to specialize in that particular field. As they do seem like they'll have more people with such issues to try and fix in future there.
 
Realistically, Amu's role would be whatever the playerbase wanted her to do. It is theoretically possible she could stay and listen and then the playerbase ends up voting for her to effectively stay out of it. That just seems unlikely if we're voting to stay and listen to begin with, because that would imply wanting a bigger slice of the pie in regards to Manticore.
We can't just get Amu whatever role we want. People won't go along with it. And if we try to do it anyway despite no one going along with it, that's a recipe for disaster.

You always seem to be really optimistic about what you can get characters to go along with.

Another thing to keep in mind is, is that Manticore is not the only thing going on in the world. We actually have had some hints even in the vote options that there are other branches one can explore that might be significant in their own way. So if one goes all in on Manticore one can probably assume that one will lose getting in early on a fair few of those as well. So one is also trading the many currently unknown adventures that are probably out there vs more directly personally dealing with Manticore.
I'd rather not go all in on Manticore myself. I'd prefer to be more peripherally involved. It's not clear to me if that's an option, though. This vote feels very all-or-nothing.
 
We can't just get Amu whatever role we want. People won't go along with it. And if we try to do it anyway despite no one going along with it, that's a recipe for disaster.

You always seem to be really optimistic about what you can get characters to go along with.
The exact wording used by the GM in regards to the kind of involvement Amu would have was:
With JPs involved in the Manticore case, there is essentially no chance Amu would be pulled as a combat unit unless she forces her way in.
.....Which is a pretty big indicator that Amu could, in fact, force her way in. Whether that's by attempting to directly prove herself to Hotsuin and argue for a legitimate role in the affair or, more likely, just by finding out where/when JPs plans to make its moves and showing up at the same location.

The latter is probably a lot less difficult than it should be, given Saaya's guardian is Hotsuin's left/right-hand combat woman (with the other being Kanno for research) and Saaya would probably be eager to join in and pump Sako for information on Amu's behalf. Meanwhile, Kanno herself would probably be highly interested in experimenting on Amu given the level of interest she's shown in her younger sister. It would likely not be impossible for Amu to pump Kanno for information in exchange for being her guinea pig. That's before getting to the fact that Kana is all but guaranteed to be heavily involved and anything that Kana learns is probably going to reach Amu, unless she deliberately requests not to be told.

Even if she doesn't go out of her way to get information on their plans and simply initially defaults to taking care of patients instead of being present directly in raids, she would almost certainly be talking to the casualties and victims she treats and getting information out of them - especially so if she's trying to repair mental damage, since that's direct access to their memories right there. Chances are, some of these patients are almost inevitably going to be JPs agents who got injured and some of them are going to be looser-lipped than they should be, doubly-so if they're drugged up on painkillers.

Let's not pretend there isn't a good chance one of these sessions won't end with Amu feeling like she should be doing more to prevent the casualties, as opposed to just cleaning up afterwards, and then getting a vote option to try and increase her involvement with the whole thing.
 
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.....Which is a pretty big indicator that Amu could, in fact, force her way in. Whether that's by attempting to directly prove herself to Hotsuin and argue for a legitimate role in the affair or, more likely, just by finding out where/when JPs plans to make its moves and showing up at the same location.
Could she do it? Maybe. But I'd say that falls under "recipe for disaster".

If we just show up for an op, we prove ourselves a loose cannon, a security risk, and a liability. We have no place in their battle plan or their combat doctrine. We don't know how to work with them, and they don't know how to work with us. They'll be trying to get us out of there, and if we insist, they'll be stuck trying to babysit a civilian through the whole thing.

And if someone dies because we were too much of a distraction, or if we screwed something up and they had to bail us out?

Now, Amu is powerful enough that if she and JP's did know how to work together, and trusted each other enough to work together, she'd probably be an asset to the team. But showing up to an op uninvited isn't going to lead to coordination or trust.

Let's not pretend there isn't a good chance one of these sessions won't end with Amu feeling like she should be doing more to prevent the casualties, as opposed to just cleaning up afterwards, and then getting a vote option to try and increase her involvement with the whole thing.
Sure, but we don't actually have to vote for that.
 
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Thanks go to @Nero200 for quick review, incidentally, not that there was that much to review. For everyone else—I want to stress, again, that this is voting on the tone of the quest for the foreseeable future. If you're reading, and I can see a number of people are, then you should probably vote.

No stress.

Easily resolved as a question, @Baughn is it possible to be more peripherally involved?
Technically? Physically speaking? Yes, but it would be a fine line to tread.

Amu—at thirteen, at any rate—is reasonably proactive. Less so here than in canon, but Jewel Joker aside... she's not great at proactively searching for information. Yes? Except the aforementioned failure landed Kana in her current situation, and she's consciously adjusting for it. Being thirteen, it doesn't take much work.

What I'm trying to say is, it would be difficult to keep her partially involved because Amu won't want to. The more she learns, the more she'll want to learn; and that almost inevitably lands you on the [X] SMT side of this particular vote. You'd get the darkness without whatever benefits come from it... at that point I might almost recommend you vote to go all in, instead.

If you pick the Shugo Chara side instead, then JPs might still ask for a loan of the Humpty Lock. They would not likely ask for Amu's direct help, however, because Amu is not known to be any sort of mind-healer... and isn't one, in fact; she'd be figuring it out in realtime. Which, in fairness to her, she might well pull off.

Even if she doesn't go out of her way to get information on their plans and simply initially defaults to taking care of patients instead of being present directly in raids, she would almost certainly be talking to the casualties and victims she treats and getting information out of them - especially so if she's trying to repair mental damage, since that's direct access to their memories right there. Chances are, some of these patients are almost inevitably going to be JPs agents who got injured and some of them are going to be looser-lipped than they should be, doubly-so if they're drugged up on painkillers.

Let's not pretend there isn't a good chance one of these sessions won't end with Amu feeling like she should be doing more to prevent the casualties, as opposed to just cleaning up afterwards, and then getting a vote option to try and increase her involvement with the whole thing.
She'd be hanging around. Again, she isn't known to be a mind-healer (because she isn't), but in this situation there's a lot more opportunities for her to learn.

Could she do it? Maybe. But I'd say that falls under "recipe for disaster".

If we just show up for an op, we prove ourselves a loose cannon, a security risk, and a liability. We have no place in their battle plan or their combat doctrine. We don't know how to work with them, and they don't know how to work with us. They'll be trying to get us out of there, and if we insist, they'll be stuck trying to babysit a civilian through the whole thing.
I was thinking of social 'forcing', first and foremost. If Amu insists strongly enough that she can be useful, and should go along, then... I may have a less apocalyptically focused Hotsuin here, but he's still Hotsuin. He'll likely give her a chance, and enough training to not get in the way, and would predictably be impressed. He's also in a good position to override the people who'll try to explain that a thirteen-year-old should not be doing this.
 
[X] Leave it to the adults

Gonna be honest, this is entirely because I don't want to deal with Manticore anymore. I couldn't even finish the Kana flashback chapter due to sheer dread; I'd rather just leave them to be handled offscreen.
 
Gonna be honest, this is entirely because I don't want to deal with Manticore anymore. I couldn't even finish the Kana flashback chapter due to sheer dread; I'd rather just leave them to be handled offscreen.
Valid. That is pretty much exactly why we're having this vote.

JPs is fully capable of this. There will be drawbacks, but they're all quite survivable.

(There are drawbacks to every vote. Though, ah, that flashback chapter... I still don't feel it's that bad. What's coming up in Kana's talk, however?)
 
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I can't say I'm satisfied with the options. Having to choose to stay uninformed to stay out of this is not a choice I like. And Amu knows she's burying her head in the sand here. And after seeing what happened the last time we let JP's have custody of a kid, I really don't want to leave JP's alone with a bunch of vulnerable Manticore victims. But

[X] Leave it to the adults
 
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[X] Leave it to the adults

Let's let JPs do what JPs is good at, there's an endless number of other things that can only be done before Tokyo gets destroyed. Like try to handle the whole not being a magical girl thing at school with Definitely Not Railgun and Probably Not Mental Out. :V

I'm sure some teenagers with attitude will turn up sometime fairly soon to expand Hotsuin's power base. Hopefully not his sister, tho.
 
Valid. That is pretty much exactly why we're having this vote.

JPs is fully capable of this. There will be drawbacks, but they're all quite survivable.

(There are drawbacks to every vote. Though, ah, that flashback chapter... I still don't feel it's that bad. What's coming up in Kana's talk, however?)
I'd rather deal with the drawbacks as they come, rather than keep dealing with Manticore.

The flashback chapter wasn't horrible in itself, from what I've heard, but it was trying to build tension and dread for what would happen to Kana, and... it worked too well on me, to the point where I couldn't finish it (and hence didn't directly find out that it ended before anything truly horrible happened). If what's coming up in Kana's talk is worse, then I really don't want any part of it.
 
(There are drawbacks to every vote. Though, ah, that flashback chapter... I still don't feel it's that bad. What's coming up in Kana's talk, however?)
What's coming up in that talk is going to be the nitty-gritty details that the interlude never went into and got glossed over in the post-interlude explanation.

At this point I suspect Manticore is being run by Hikawa's cult, which means not only would they have been cutting open brains/souls in regards to Asahi Nanami's personal agenda to try and fix her daughter, they were probably sacrificing them to summon demons too. Possibly also getting possessed by them, given Persona 2 had someone getting possessed by a demon as a result of a failed experiment to artificially give them a Persona.

In this scenario, we know the Velvet Room is capable of exorcising the demon and, with effort, restoring someone who has been broken from the process by gathering the shattered pieces of them from the Dreamlands (which I just realized is, in fact, the name used in Persona 2 for that particular location in the Sea of Souls) and replacing them.

I suspect Amu would want to attempt this procedure to save some of the victims if/when she finds out.

Problem is, JPs may not know it is actually possible to do this. If Amu was involved, she could likely intuitively conclude it could be done (or at least, be led in that direction player vote) based on the pieces of Yui she previously acquired and insist on attempting it, even they didn't know for certain it was possible. But if Amu doesn't get involved, it would require JPs to know it could be done and/or fall on Naoto Shirogane's group (mainly Narukami and Marie, who have direct contact with the Velvet Room) to figure it out, in order to save the victims that are savable through that method.

I assume one of the drawbacks of not going all in with Manticore is the risk of losing someone we have never met who could have been saved this way, if the Investigation Team and JPs don't realize it can be done soon enough or aren't able to successfully pull it off for whatever reason.

.....On the other hand, with or without going all-in on Manticore, we already have pieces of Yui, so that's at least one victim we can save through that method. If we ever get our own way to access the Dreamlands outside of relying on Naoto, I daresay they would make a good training ground for whatever team Amu pulls together outside of JPs.

....I dunno, would that count as still being partially involved and end up leading further down the rabbit-hole?
 
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....I dunno, would that count as still being partially involved and end up leading further down the rabbit-hole?
It's a different rabbit hole.

Neither Yui has parts that are still back at manticore, so there's no reason to go there. However, if you want to save them, then I recommend talking to Ami. She has acquaintances which can help.
 
.....On the other hand, with or without going all-in on Manticore, we already have pieces of Yui, so that's at least one victim we can save through that method. If we ever get our own way to access the Dreamlands outside of relying on Naoto, I daresay they would make a good training ground for whatever team Amu pulls together outside of JPs.
Ami's probably that access. She's on her way to Dreamwalking 3 right now, and if that's not enough to pull us through a TV, well, she's probably not stopping at 3.

It's a different rabbit hole.

Neither Yui has parts that are still back at manticore, so there's no reason to go there. However, if you want to save them, then I recommend talking to Ami. She has acquaintances which can help.
More helpful than Marie? Or just easier to convince?

And does "them" refer to Manticore victims, or the Yuis? If it refers to Manticore victims, could you elaborate on how this is a different rabbit hole? I'd like to know what kind of story direction this would lead to.
 
More helpful than Marie? Or just easier to convince?
The latter is definitely true. I can't comment on the former.

How do you see Marie? What sort of goddess is she? Yeah, I'm being Socratic, but that's my only option here.
And does "them" refer to Manticore victims, or the Yuis? If it refers to Manticore victims, could you elaborate on how this is a different rabbit hole? I'd like to know what kind of story direction this would lead to.
In this case I meant the Yuis. The manticore victims were harmed in a different way, but it's a fair guess that they can still be helped through the Dream; however, it would be a separate quest. Not to be confused with Quest.

I'll admit that's one way you could assist without getting directly involved, and maybe it would feel less like sticking your head in the sand? It's not relevant yet, however; JPs has no victims to help yet.

Hmm.

I can't say much about the contents of the plot, if you try to help the Yuis this way, but as for the tone…

Fairy tale. Ami has a particular perspective on the Dream, and that's what she'd be dragging you into. You already know she's befriended a troll…

It's a fair bet there's more of that.
 
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And does "them" refer to Manticore victims, or the Yuis? If it refers to Manticore victims, could you elaborate on how this is a different rabbit hole? I'd like to know what kind of story direction this would lead to.
Have a feeling that at this point, any other Manticore victims apart from the Scavengers (hey, the Yuis count too) are more or less Schrodinger's Victims. They don't exist yet and might not exist depending on which option gets chosen.

If we went all in on Manticore, such victims would exist likely in such a way that we have a chance to help them, with the reward for successfully doing so being information and assistance that would advance the SMT plotline, my prediction being stuff that will ultimately lead to an early jumpstart on heading off Hikawa's cult and Conception.

If we don't, they either won't exist or won't have as much juicy info to drop even if by chance (or design) we took actions along the other route that helped them. Instead of some named partially-lucid survivor that we might stumble across on a raid during the SMT route, there might only be a room of completely comatose unnamed victims after the same raid on the other route.
 
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How do you see Marie? What sort of goddess is she? Yeah, I'm being Socratic, but that's my only option here.
Former Velvet Room attendant, possibly current Velvet Room attendant? Literally Izanami by now, if the Persona 4 Golden plot went well enough? The conversation started by talking about how the Velvet Room was able to do this thing, and Marie can probably contact them, if she can't do it herself.

Doesn't really matter what I have in mind. You always seem to see things in a way that utterly baffles me.
 
Former Velvet Room attendant, possibly current Velvet Room attendant? Literally Izanami by now, if the Persona 4 Golden plot went well enough? The conversation started by talking about how the Velvet Room was able to do this thing, and Marie can probably contact them, if she can't do it herself.
In Persona 2, the Velvet Room - or, well, Igor - tells Tatsuya that they can remove a demon possessing someone, but they can't directly retrieve a person's shattered consciousness when it has been "completely severed from the body". That job has to be done by gathering up pieces within the Dreamlands, the "gates" of which Igor himself - and presumably the other occupants and attendants of the Velvet Room - didn't have the ability to open. He mentioned they could be opened by Philemon, Nyarlathotep or Persona users who have trained in the ability.

At the time, Philemon was too weak to do it, Nyarlathotep was obviously not an option and Igor warned Tatsuya that training might take too long and risk the pieces fading away before he could gather them. So Tatsuya actually ended up having to go to another veteran Persona user, someone called Chandraputra, to get him to send them there.

So Marie may or may not actually have the ability to actually go there. Being part of the Velvet Room is not guarantee since even Igor himself couldn't do it. She might, if she's on the same level as Philemon and Nyarlathetop.

We don't know for sure that Marie was how Naoto accessed the Dreamlands, that's just been an assumption so far, it could just as well have been Narukami, having trained the ability himself.
 
In Persona 2, the Velvet Room - or, well, Igor - tells Tatsuya that they can remove a demon possessing someone, but they can't directly retrieve a person's shattered consciousness when it has been "completely severed from the body". That job has to be done by gathering up pieces within the Dreamlands, the "gates" of which Igor himself - and presumably the other occupants and attendants of the Velvet Room - didn't have the ability to open. He mentioned they could be opened by Philemon, Nyarlathotep or Persona users who have trained in the ability.
Well, that undercuts a lot of the argument for Marie being able to help.

How big was the Velvet Room's involvement? It sounds like they took the demon out, but they were mostly uninvolved in gathering the pieces of the person. Did they put the pieces back together, once they had the pieces?
 
How big was the Velvet Room's involvement? It sounds like they took the demon out, but they were mostly uninvolved in gathering the pieces of the person. Did they put the pieces back together, once they had the pieces?
I think that was implied to be the case, yes.

The full line Igor says is: "If her soul were still at the stage of Persona possession, like the Joker Users, then I would still be able to do something for her. But alas, Mistress Miyashiro's psyche has been completely severed from her body." which implies that Igor could help if all the bits of her soul were there in the body, even in the case of a corrupted or out-of-control Persona. It just wasn't at the time, because the demon that took over displaced her soul and the bits got scattered across the Dreamlands.

View: https://youtu.be/aqPqQR-vWeE?t=6997
I'll admit, I am not exactly entirely familiar with Persona 2 as I only know the broad strokes of the story and haven't played the PSP version of it myself and this stuff all comes from an extra scenario that was added to the PSP version of Persona 2 Eternal Punishment, which was never officially released in English; that linked video is from a fan-patched version that used what appears to be an edited version of this translation for that portion of the script (they transplanted the Playstation version script for the rest of it).

The place called the Dreamlands is introduced by Igor as the "Kadath Mandala", with him saying that "Dreamlands" was the name that old Persona users used to call it and is the one who arranges for Chandraputra to meet with Tatsuya so he could open the gate leading there.

From what I can tell, being called the "Dreamlands" is apparently a reference to the place from H.P. Lovecraft/Cthulu Mythos and the Persona user Swami Chandraputra is seemingly the SMT version of the character by the same name from the Cthulu Mythos, down to the "silver key" he uses to open the gate and the fact he used to be known as Randolph Carter. In Persona 2, he apparently ended up as Chandraputra after a nasty run-in with Nyarlathotep and Igor calls him "a busy traveler of time-space" who apparently takes some time for Igor to get in contact with.

......Now, I know the Dumpty Key is mostly golden rather than silver and it isn't exactly covered in arabesque designs like Persona 2 describes Chandraputra's key as, but if my theory about the Chara system being backed by the Velvet Room (or Nyarlathotep) is right....
 
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