We don't, but that's mostly because we've been doing it one way for so long that it's cheaper to keep doing that. Solar Thermal in the '60s can get Isps of upwards of 600 seconds easily (I've seen 1040 s for more modern stuff, but I'm doubtful we can do that without some exotic materials). That's a significant savings when trying to launch things on interplanetary trajectories, which we want to do by the end of the decade, and I don't think our astrodynamics or solar cells are good enough for an ion burn that'll send us to Mars.
A lot of that depends on fuel choice however. The most performant designs use hydrogen, but storing hydrogen for long periods of time is not a trivial problem. Using heavier fuels makes fuel storage easier, but crashes your isp instead.
 
Helium is probably your next best propellant, followed by nitrogen. I'd say oxygen would be good but hot oxygen is nasty no matter what your engine is.
 
If we're just doing one-way trips, then it shouldn't be a problem; the engine will be running almost as soon as we reach orbit, and once it turns off, we probably won't have to restart it.

The study I read last night suggested ammonia as a storable alternative, but it comes with a loss of specific impulse. For our immediate needs (throwing things at other planets), short-term storage of hydrogen is acceptable.

[X] Plan: Looking to the Future
Operations (6+0/6) (165R)
-[X] [1 die] Construct an R-1 Beden (15R per dice, 3/35, costs 1 Build Capacity until complete)
--[X] And give it to the visitor's centre
-[X] [5 dice] Construct an R-4a Dawn (30R per dice, 0/100, costs 1 Build Capacity until complete)
--[X] And place it in stockpile
-[X] Construct a Payload
--[X] Curiosity-class Satellite (20R)
---[X] And give it to the visior's centre
--[X] Curiosity-B-class Satellite (25R)
---[X] And give it to the visior's centre

Programs (1/1) (0R+40R)
No change

Facilities (8+0/8) (245R)
-[X] [3 dice] Build a new Space Center (Singapore) (Phase 2) (35R per dice, 302/600)
-[X] [2 dice] Build a Scientific Complex (25R per dice)
--[X] Sydney Microelectronics Research Centre (AVIONICS) (235/450)
-[X] [3 dice] Tracking and Communication Station Construction (Phase 3) (30R per dice, 288/550) (3 dice, -90R)

Engineering (3+3/6) (45R+55R)
-[X] [1 die] Design/Redesign an Orbital Rocket (15R, 2 turns, 1 die locked)
--[X] Redesign (R-3)
-[X] [1 die] Lander Design Studies (15R, 4 turns, 1 die locked)
-[X] [1 die] Solar Thermal Rocketry [PHYS] (15R per dice, 0/450)

Science (3+2/5) (50R+25R)
-[X] [2 dice] Exploratory Propellant Research (Phase 3) [CHEM] (15R per dice, 167/250)
-[X] [1 die] Synthetic Aperture Radar (20R, 0/4 turns, 1 locked)

Politics (5/5) (10R)
-[X] [4 dice] Propagandize for Nuclear Power (-2PS per die) (485/???)
-[X] [1 die] Visitor Complex (10R per dice, 257/300)
 
[X] Plan A New Machine 615 R spent
-[X] Construct an R-4a Dawn (0/100) (5 die, -150R)
--[X] And Launch it x1 dice
---[X] With a Curiosity-b Science satellite x1
----[X]Into Geostationary Transfer Orbit (and return photo-capsule before attempting Geostationary insertion)
-[X] Build a Space Center (Singapore) (302/600) (3 dice, -105R)
-[X] Build a Scientific Complex
--[X] Sydney Microelectronics Research Centre (AVIONICS) (235/450) (2 dice, -50R)
-[X] Tracking and Communication Station Construction (Phase 3) (288/550) (3 dice, -90R)
-[X] Human-rated Rocketry (7/8 turns) (1 die, -20R)
-[X] Crewed Orbiting Stations (0/450) (1 die, -20)
-[X] Nuclear Power Plant Design Studies (6/8 turns) (1 die, -25R)
-[X] Impactor Designs (2/3 turns) (1 die, -10R)
-[X] Lander Design Studies (0/4 turns) (1 die, -15R)
-[X] Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators (0/2 turns) (1 die, -20R)
-[X] Exploratory Propellant Research (Phase 2) [CHEM] (167/250) (2 dice, -30R)
-[X] Very Long Range Communications (1/3 turns) (1 die, -5 R)
-[X] Transistor Computing Investigations (2/6 turns) (1 die, -20R)
-[X] Synthetic Aperture Radar (1 die, -20R)
-[X] Propagandize for Space (138/???) (4 dice, -20R)
-[X] Visitor Complex (257/300) (1 dice, -10R)


Space propaganda to coincide with the construction of our visitor complex, researching a lander design (the hateful hypergolics?) and getting started on the big obvious project that justifies any decent space program-manned orbital stations for power generation, industry, communications and weather observations!
 
@C_Z i think my question with the Solar thermal is what exactly is the longer term use case? It seems like a stopgap measure to me that would be useful if we needed to send an interplanetary probe next year or the year after, rather than an impactor.

Why shouldn't we just wait a hot second and look to ion drives which have much higher ISP?

I'd also like to see all-sky in one of these but I'm not sure how to fit it in if anyone has any ideas.
 
[X] Plan: Knocking out Obligations
- [X] Construct an R-4 Dawn - (35R per dice, 97/120, costs 1 build capacity til complete) (2 Payload Mass capacity) (2 dice)
-- [X] And launch it (1 Operations dice; specify payload)
- [X] Construct a Payload
-- [X] Curiosity-C-class Satellite (30R) (2 payload mass) (16 quarter lifetime) (1 die)
- [X] Build a new Space Center (Singapore) (3 Dice) (Phase 2 (302/600), begins construction, 1 500T pad available when complete)
- [X] Build a Scientific Complex (25R per die, opens up new research possibilities, +1d5+5 bonus in the associated field, +1 Education for the region)
-- [X] Sydney Microelectronics Research Centre (AVIONICS) (235/450) (2 Dice)
- [X] Tracking and Communication Station (30R per die, 288/550) (3 dice)
- [X] Prototype Spaceplane (0/300, 15R per dice) (3 dice)
- [X] Exploratory Propellant Research (15R per dice, 167/250, unlocks fuel mixtures and further fuel development) (Phase 2) [CHEM] (3 dice)
- [X] Very Long Range Communications (5R per turn, 1 Science dice locked, 2/3 turns) (1 die)
- [X] Propagandize for Space (5R per die) (138/???) (2 dice)
- [X] Visitor Complex (257/300, 10R per dice, +1 Politics bonus, +??) (2 dice)
- [X] Laboratory Talent Scouting - (0/150, 5R per dice, -5R per turn on completion. Gain +1 Science dice) (1 die)
 
@C_Z i think my question with the Solar thermal is what exactly is the longer term use case? It seems like a stopgap measure to me that would be useful if we needed to send an interplanetary probe next year or the year after, rather than an impactor.

Why shouldn't we just wait a hot second and look to ion drives which have much higher ISP?

I'd also like to see all-sky in one of these but I'm not sure how to fit it in if anyone has any ideas.
Solar thermal is useful for sending probes, impactors, and basically whatever we want on a high-energy trajectory after already placing it in LEO. Shot-term, that's our lunar and interplanetary probes, which will continue being a niche that this can fill basically forever; they're still occasionally brought up for that role, but nowadays we send probes so rarely that you might as well just use what you already have. It's also useful for putting stuff into GEO; you get a fair bit more up-mass than with a chemical upper stage, and unlike an ion drive, you can get the satellite there in a few weeks instead of a few months.

Ion drives have an order of magnitude lower TWR and require extremely complex burns, and the specific impulse isn't that much better for 1950s capabilities. KSP lies by making hall-effect thrusters have enough thrust to not make you go insane, but actual burns using ion drives are slow spirals outwards. The justification for solar thermal is the same as the justification for continued use of chemical vacuum stages despite us having used ion thrusters IRL. To put it into more direct KSP terms, solar thermal is like nuclear thermal but smaller and without the scary trefoils (as long as you're not too far away from the sun).

That said, it shouldn't be considered "ion drive or solar thermal", but IMO the two complement each other very well. Solar thermal's biggest development hurdle is the collector. If you already have a big mylar mirror on the spacecraft that can concentrate sunlight onto a point, why not use it first to directly propel you with a solar thermal rocket, and then direct it at a photovoltaic panel and do midcourse adjustments or station keeping with ions. This matches with irl use cases; probes like Dawn used chemical kick stages to get them going to GTO or escape trajectories and then the ion thrusters took over. Solar thermal is competing with a PAM-D.

TL;DR, you have three different propulsion types, each with their optimal niches. Chemical is great for the high-thrust burns that you need for entering LEO or doing landings. Solar thermal is great whe you're already starting in LEO and need to speed up to go somewhere. Ion is great for after that kick, when you want to make very low thrust maneuvers.
 
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[X] Plan: Looking to the Future

A lot of that depends on fuel choice however. The most performant designs use hydrogen, but storing hydrogen for long periods of time is not a trivial problem. Using heavier fuels makes fuel storage easier, but crashes your isp instead.

That's why in LEO you use the boiloof for station keeping - because you have to do it anyway so it's basically a free way to avoid doing zero boiloff while getting aln the benefits of zero boiloff.

And once you get away from LEO, it's becomes *much* easier to do zero boiloff with just possive insulation because you don't have a huge IR source (the earth's surface) taking up half the sky.

Helium is probably your next best propellant, followed by nitrogen. I'd say oxygen would be good but hot oxygen is nasty no matter what your engine is.

Honestly once you stop using chemical combustion for your heat source. Hydrogen is the only thing that makes sense.

@C_Z i think my question with the Solar thermal is what exactly is the longer term use case? It seems like a stopgap measure to me that would be useful if we needed to send an interplanetary probe next year or the year after, rather than an impactor.

Why shouldn't we just wait a hot second and look to ion drives which have much higher ISP?

Because the dirty little secret of all electri propulsion is the power source. To really get good performance from any electric thruster you need to feed it with a very high power/mass power source.
Those '30 Day To Mars VASIMR' popsci articles aren't wrong... but those performance figures depend on somehow getting a *very* high specific power energy source.

That can be a very spicy reactor coupled with a Brayton cycle energy conversion system... or you can replace the reactor with a large thin firm solar collector and use that to drive the turbines.
For electric thrusters this is very attractive because the thrust is so low that you don't need much in the way of support structure for the collector.
 
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Honestly once you stop using chemical combustion for your heat source. Hydrogen is the only thing that makes sense.

My thought was more along the lines of 'you don't have zero boiloff hydrogen storage and want something easier to hold for long durations', which all three of those are.
 
And once you get away from LEO, it's becomes *much* easier to do zero boiloff with just possive insulation because you don't have a huge IR source (the earth's surface) taking up half the sky.
Is IR radiation from the earth really a bigger problem for LEO spacecraft than IR radiation from the more distant but MUCH hotter sun? The bright side of the moon does get pretty got. I have that "citation needed" feeling right now.
Helium is probably your next best propellant, followed by nitrogen. I'd say oxygen would be good but hot oxygen is nasty no matter what your engine is.
Why would anyone use oxygen as a propellant, when it's slightly heavier than nitrogen and way more corrosive?

Also are any of our engineers entertaining the idea of a solid-at-room-temp propellant for our non-chemical rockets or is that restricted to the margins of their wildest napkin drawings? Could you e.g. have a setup where you have a bunch of separate capsules of lithium and direct the Solar Thermal onto one of them at a time? Or is there a reason that can't work?
 
Why would anyone use oxygen as a propellant, when it's slightly heavier than nitrogen and way more corrosive?
Your quote already shows my answer to that question.

Also are any of our engineers entertaining the idea of a solid-at-room-temp propellant for our non-chemical rockets or is that restricted to the margins of their wildest napkin drawings? Could you e.g. have a setup where you have a bunch of separate capsules of lithium and direct the Solar Thermal onto one of them at a time? Or is there a reason that can't work?

Nobody's thinking about that, no.
 
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Is IR radiation from the earth really a bigger problem for LEO spacecraft than IR radiation from the more distant but MUCH hotter sun? The bright side of the moon does get pretty got. I have that "citation needed" feeling right now.
Try blocking the sun with your hand while lookign it. Now try blocking the ground with your hand while looking at it :V

Also are any of our engineers entertaining the idea of a solid-at-room-temp propellant for our non-chemical rockets or is that restricted to the margins of their wildest napkin drawings? Could you e.g. have a setup where you have a bunch of separate capsules of lithium and direct the Solar Thermal onto one of them at a time? Or is there a reason that can't work?
Nobody's thinking about that, no.
What about PPTs? Those were the earliest Soviet electric thrusters (using PFTE as a propellant), and could be useful for our RCS systems soon-ish?

Re. Plan: Knocking out Obligations, why do the spaceplane now? We've got two facilities projects (wind tunnel upgrades to simulate higher velocities and reentry effects) that we can bang out in Q1/Q2 of next year that'll give us a big AERO bonus and, presumably, help with the spaceplane's design. I'm not against the spaceplane, but it seems like there's a good synergy behind doing those two projects in the first half of the year, then pushing for the spaceplane in the second half (alongside the next supersonic research stage).
 
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Vote closed
Scheduled vote count started by Shadows on Jul 20, 2024 at 1:34 PM, finished with 18 posts and 9 votes.

  • [X] Plan: Looking to the Future
    -[X] [1 die] Construct an R-1 Beden (15R per dice, 3/35, costs 1 Build Capacity until complete)
    --[X] And give it to the visitor's centre
    -[X] [5 dice] Construct an R-4a Dawn (30R per dice, 0/100, costs 1 Build Capacity until complete)
    --[X] And place it in stockpile
    -[X] Construct a Payload
    --[X] Curiosity-class Satellite (20R)
    ---[X] And give it to the visior's centre
    --[X] Curiosity-B-class Satellite (25R)
    -[X] [3 dice] Build a new Space Center (Singapore) (Phase 2) (35R per dice, 302/600)
    -[X] [2 dice] Build a Scientific Complex (25R per dice)
    --[X] Sydney Microelectronics Research Centre (AVIONICS) (235/450)
    -[X] [3 dice] Tracking and Communication Station Construction (Phase 3) (30R per dice, 288/550) (3 dice, -90R)
    -[X] [1 die] Design/Redesign an Orbital Rocket (15R, 2 turns, 1 die locked)
    --[X] Redesign (R-3)
    -[X] [1 die] Lander Design Studies (15R, 4 turns, 1 die locked)
    -[X] [1 die] Solar Thermal Rocketry [PHYS] (15R per dice, 0/450)
    -[X] [2 dice] Exploratory Propellant Research (Phase 3) [CHEM] (15R per dice, 167/250)
    -[X] [1 die] Synthetic Aperture Radar (20R, 0/4 turns, 1 locked)
    -[X] [4 dice] Propagandize for Nuclear Power (-2PS per die) (485/???)
    -[X] [1 die] Visitor Complex (10R per dice, 257/300)
    [X] Plan A New Machine 615 R spent
    -[X] Construct an R-4a Dawn (0/100) (5 die, -150R)
    --[X] And Launch it x1 dice
    ---[X] With a Curiosity-b Science satellite x1
    ----[X]Into Geostationary Transfer Orbit (and return photo-capsule before attempting Geostationary insertion)
    -[X] Build a Space Center (Singapore) (302/600) (3 dice, -105R)
    -[X] Build a Scientific Complex
    --[X] Sydney Microelectronics Research Centre (AVIONICS) (235/450) (2 dice, -50R)
    -[X] Tracking and Communication Station Construction (Phase 3) (288/550) (3 dice, -90R)
    -[X] Human-rated Rocketry (7/8 turns) (1 die, -20R)
    -[X] Crewed Orbiting Stations (0/450) (1 die, -20)
    -[X] Nuclear Power Plant Design Studies (6/8 turns) (1 die, -25R)
    -[X] Impactor Designs (2/3 turns) (1 die, -10R)
    -[X] Lander Design Studies (0/4 turns) (1 die, -15R)
    -[X] Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators (0/2 turns) (1 die, -20R)
    -[X] Exploratory Propellant Research (Phase 2) [CHEM] (167/250) (2 dice, -30R)
    -[X] Very Long Range Communications (1/3 turns) (1 die, -5 R)
    -[X] Transistor Computing Investigations (2/6 turns) (1 die, -20R)
    -[X] Synthetic Aperture Radar (1 die, -20R)
    -[X] Propagandize for Space (138/???) (4 dice, -20R)
    -[X] Visitor Complex (257/300) (1 dice, -10R)
    [X] Plan: Knocking out Obligations
    - [X] Construct an R-4 Dawn - (35R per dice, 97/120, costs 1 build capacity til complete) (2 Payload Mass capacity) (2 dice)
    -- [X] And launch it (1 Operations dice; specify payload)
    -[X] Construct a Payload
    -- [X] Curiosity-C-class Satellite (30R) (2 payload mass) (16 quarter lifetime) (1 die)
    - [X] Build a new Space Center (Singapore) (3 Dice) (Phase 2 (302/600), begins construction, 1 500T pad available when complete)
    - [X] Build a Scientific Complex (25R per die, opens up new research possibilities, +1d5+5 bonus in the associated field, +1 Education for the region)
    -- [X] Sydney Microelectronics Research Centre (AVIONICS) (235/450) (2 Dice)
    - [X] Tracking and Communication Station (30R per die, 288/550) (3 dice)
    - [X] Prototype Spaceplane (0/300, 15R per dice) (3 dice)
    - [X] Exploratory Propellant Research (15R per dice, 167/250, unlocks fuel mixtures and further fuel development) (Phase 2) [CHEM] (3 dice)
    - [X] Very Long Range Communications (5R per turn, 1 Science dice locked, 2/3 turns) (1 die)
    - [X] Propagandize for Space (5R per die) (138/???) (2 dice)
    - [X] Visitor Complex (257/300, 10R per dice, +1 Politics bonus, +??) (2 dice)
    - [X] Laboratory Talent Scouting - (0/150, 5R per dice, -5R per turn on completion. Gain +1 Science dice) (1 die)
 
And with Derpmind's tiebreaker, Looking to the Future is our winner.
Shadows threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: R-1 Construction Total: 42
42 42
Shadows threw 5 100-faced dice. Reason: R-4a Construction Total: 219
23 23 28 28 59 59 99 99 10 10
Shadows threw 3 100-faced dice. Reason: Singapore Construction Total: 104
30 30 46 46 28 28
Shadows threw 2 100-faced dice. Reason: Sydney Microelectronics Centre Total: 35
6 6 29 29
Shadows threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Solar Thermal Rocketry Total: 69
69 69
Shadows threw 2 100-faced dice. Reason: Exploratory Prop Research Total: 152
92 92 60 60
Shadows threw 5 100-faced dice. Reason: Propagandize for Nuclear Power Total: 267
4 4 71 71 67 67 45 45 80 80
Shadows threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Visitor Complex Total: 73
73 73
Shadows threw 3 100-faced dice. Reason: Tracking Stations Construction Total: 156
80 80 68 68 8 8
 
R-1 Beden: 3+3+42/35=1 R1, 13/35
R-4a Dawn: 15+219= 2R-4as, 34/100


Build a new Space Center (Singapore) (Phase 2) (35R per dice, 302+30+104=436/600)
Sydney Microelectronics Research Centre (AVIONICS) (235+20+35=290/450)
Tracking and Communication Station Construction (Phase 3) (30R per dice, 288+30+156=474/550)


Human-rated Rocketry (8/8 turns)
Nuclear Power Plant Design Studies (7/8 turns)
Impactor Designs (3/3 turns)
Solar Thermal Rocketry [PHYS] (15R per dice, 0+69+31=100/450)
Exploratory Propellant Research (Phase 3) [CHEM] (15R per dice, 167+62+152=381/250)
Very Long Range Communications (2/3 turns)
Transistor Computing Investigations (3/6 turns)
Synthetic Aperture Radar (1/4 turns)


Propagandize for Nuclear Power (-2PS per die) (485+263+40=788/???)
Visitor Complex (10R per dice, 257+10+73=340/300)
 
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