So let me get this straight, you went to merry old England and the first thing you did was find some of King Arthur's knights in dungeon from trying to un-kill him and you decided to spring them and help?
'Are you sure that strand goes there?'; 'Have you considered tying off that weave at the top instead of the bottom so it won't echo?' ; "Maybe it's worth putting less power on the down-stroke?"
There's an unneeded space before the last ";". Also I think the quotation marks indicating speech may not be needed here since they weren't used in the previous lines or the previous lines need to have them added.
Faintly as first then clearer and clearer you start seeing fingers of paler stone, crystal in the walls, jade, though it's not pure enough to extract and bring into the the world of form you know,
In "a" dungeon would sound better though I think it may not be incorrect as is.
Missing a period after people.
Again not sure if that's incorrect as is though I think you meant for there to be an "on" in between practice and how.
There's an unneeded space before the last ";". Also I think the quotation marks indicating speech may not be needed here since they weren't used in the previous lines or the previous lines need to have them added.
[X] Use both
-[X] First the Sight, to get the broader context
-[X] Then the Crown Question, to get deeper understanding
--[X] Use Occult Excellency and BSM to better understand what you see
Assuming this is clear to take* what do we want to make with it? It's Manse grade, but that's a really broad category of system. My initial reactions have all been bad ideas even if they'd be really funny.
For example, part of me wants to pop into a senior council meeting and ask if they want to hang out after school to collaborate on a super weapon project.
Just imagine the looks on their faces as we earnestly expound on the benefits of storing away a portion of all the true sunlight to touch 149,997 square kilometers of territory to fire as a death ray at the vampires.
* It doesn't belong to Porter right? It's just in his neighborhood. Stealing from your minions is bad civilization.
Generally you would want a broad shallow analysis first, to establish the wider context, and a deep narrow dive afterwards, using the data from the wider analysis to better direct / contextualize your second inquiry. The danger of doing the sight first is not insignificant, but at this point, Harry has soulgazed an infernal exaltation and the manifestation of the Primordial's World Body. I am fairly sure he's going to be ok. Still, if this is a deal breaker, I can switch the two options, I guess.
I get it, but there's a balance of risk and reward here. The comparison here is the difference in information quality/value versus the degree and likelihood of harm to Harry.
He'll perfectly recall anything he sees with the sight forever, and we have a limited ability to help him recover from serious harm. He's pretty mentally tough, but it's a concern. I don't have particular reason to believe he'll face permanent debilitation, but a sharp quality of life decrease in the short to medium term isn't nothing.
The marginal gain here for taking that risk is getting the opportunity to make a better informed crown question, which can be significant but varies wildly in value based on the context. If what we get is something very horrible but also very dead then the trauma he takes won't actually make much of a functional difference. In the case where it's safe to use the sight on we'll still get information from him too, so even if we can't use it now we can still leverage it to get more questions later.
That being the case I'm inclined to be more protective here.
Though it also occurs to me that this could be an opportunity to test some of our new charms too. Whistle up some holographic minions to inspect the place and provide context for our next steps.
Assuming this is clear to take* what do we want to make with it? It's Manse grade, but that's a really broad category of system. My initial reactions have all been bad ideas even if they'd be really funny.
For example, part of me wants to pop into a senior council meeting and ask if they want to hang out after school to collaborate on a super weapon project.
Just imagine the looks on their faces as we earnestly expound on the benefits of storing away a portion of all the true sunlight to touch 149,997 square kilometers of territory to fire as a death ray at the vampires.
* It doesn't belong to Porter right? It's just in his neighborhood. Stealing from your minions is bad civilization.
To be clear there is nothing to take, you fount a hole where a long time ago someone carved a pentagram of very high quality jade out of the wall, the question now is who and for what purpose.
1) Managing to get something most of the time is a sign of skill, but fundamentally not the same as getting what they want or actually winning a full encounter.
2) the white god doesn't intervene on stuff like that, Shiro certainly thought his time was limited.
3) Nicodemus didn't get it though, that was Mab's revenge. He'd give up his reputation, burn significant resources, and give up one of the few people he had some sort of love for to the mercies of a angry Greek God without ever getting what he lost them for.
1)I dont agree.
Thats like saying that if you invest money in a business venture, its a failure if you dont get maximum yield. Even if you turn a profit.
2) Limited =/=Limited. Survival rate post-pancreatic CA diagnosis can be anything from months to 30 years.
A medical diagnosis of terminal disease doesnt mean you are literally going to die tomorrow, and Shiro had anything from months to years of service left in him.
So no, it was a very real sacrifice, and a victory on Nicky's part to get Shirou to give himself up for torture-murder that empowered his killer.
3) Yes he did. I quote:
Valmont looked back at my brightly blazing staff in sudden understanding. Look, everybody, Dresden and Valmont are right there, see? Nowhere near the heart of the collection.
The amphitheater stage, in stark contrast to every other display in the vault, had no overwhelming riches, fantastic jewels, or precious metals. It was stark and bare, with a single block of silver-veined marble rising about four feet off the stage floor in its center. And upon the marble sat five simple objects.
An ancient wooden placard, its paint so faded that the symbols could not be recognized.
A circlet woven from thorny branches.
A clay cup.
A folded cloth.
A knife with a wooden handle and a leaf-shaped blade.
Why take one priceless holy relic when you could take five of them?
And I knew exactly what relic Nicodemus truly wanted.
I turned to Anna and mouthed, "Check it."
She nodded and hunkered down to examine the block, moving cautiously around it. Meanwhile, I extended my senses toward them, feeling carefully for any enchantments that might be protecting them.
That was a mistake. There weren't any traps on the objects, but the collective aura of power around them seared my awareness as sharply as if I'd jammed a penny in an electrical outlet. I let out a hiss and leaned back, while my thoughts blazed with the energy focused upon those artifacts-a combined aura that made the thrumming power of a roused Amoracchius seem like a low-wattage lightbulb by comparison.
Harry touched it. Michael didnt kill Nicodemus because he used it as a shield.
We dont know what he wants the Holy Grail for, but he explicitly got away with it.
Its the other artifacts, the Lance of Longinus/Spear of Destiny, the real Shroud of Turin, the Titulus Crucis over Christ's crucifix, and the Crown of Thorns, that he didnt get. The major Instruments of the Passion, basically.
Mab and Hades wouldnt have successfully baited him and Anduriel without the real deal.
EDIT
The Instruments of the Passion are central to the Dresden Files mythology, even when they arent called out as such.
The Nails were used to make the Swords. The 30 pieces of silver were used to make the Denarian Coins. The Titulus Crucis which was used to protect Mac's bar during Battle Grounds
I'm pretty sure there was a mention of some trick like this during the exchange specifically so that they couldn't try to drag him to hell after torturing him to death.
You are (mis)remembering the scene in Ghost Story where Father Forthill was unconscious and potentially dying, and an Angel of Death specifically was sent to guard him.
There was no such scene in Death Masks.
Dresden didnt even meet any angels until the end of Small Favor, when he first meets Uriel at the hospital chapel.
Anything we attempt to do to them is going to have to contend against perfect defenses on some level. The only way this is going to be anything other than a fractally stupid waste of time is if we have a workaround and use it to apply something Hell can't just reverse without spending appreciable resources.
I think a key element here is that the coins are an active impediment that render them nearly helpless without a host. They cannot exercise significant power on their own because the white god froze them in carbonite.
For good measure we also need a mote tap plan. Spam stuff they have to defend against with perfects to waste power and kill their hosts, then slap them with the time travel trap.
The position that they're all powerful entities that cannot be tricked or overcome isn't supported by the evidence and doesn't propose a viable course of action. They're powerful and dangerous, but they're also basically crippled by the intervention of the white god and their own fractured psyches.
The defender has some level of advantage here.
Punting someone through time would be shaping shit, and I am reasonably sure they have an analogue.
The Fae are implied to have some defenses in order to fight beyond the Gates without all getting mindcontrolled or turned into whatever the local equivalent of chaos spawn is.
=====
The key word there is nearly.
I dont believe its meant to immobilize them for other people to take potshots. Dresden soulgazing Rasmussen got Ursiel to punt him like a football, and I dont think anyone has the intestinal fortitude to soulgaze one.
There appears to be a line beyond which they are allowed to take action without sanction.
=====
There isnt a mote tap plan, any more than there was a mote tap plan for Primordials, or for the Unconquered Sun.
Thats not how the Fallen work in canon; thats not how any opposition has worked in this game thus far. The Fallen have functionally infinite reservoirs of power. Dresden literally had a seemingly bottomless well of Hellfire to draw on when he had Lash in his head, and that was just the introductory offer, the bait on the hook.
The way to tackle the Fallen in canon has always been to attack the human host.
Here, we are going to need a lot more data if we think we can cook up a better plan than what the Church has been doing for two millenia.
You are inventing this wholecloth. There was no indication that this was possible or plausible in the books. The miracle of resurrection was a very special thing.
You're just unfamiliar with some of the source material that Butcher draws on.
Resurrection is special, but its not a unique event in Christian mythology/theology.
Christ did it multiple times during his life to at least three people. The prophets Elijah and Elisha both did it in the Old Testament before Christ. So did Apostles Peter and Paul after Christ.
Hell, when Christ was resurrected, a lot of people were resurrected with him, went into the city and appeared to many.
You're just unfamiliar with some of the source material that Butcher draws on.
Resurrection is special, but its not a unique event in Christian mythology/theology.
Christ did it multiple times during his life to at least three people. The prophets Elijah and Elisha both did it in the Old Testament before Christ. So did Apostles Peter and Paul after Christ.
Hell, when Christ was resurrected, a lot of people were resurrected with him, went into the city and appeared to many.
To be clear there is nothing to take, you fount a hole where a long time ago someone carved a pentagram of very high quality jade out of the wall, the question now is who and for what purpose.
Yeah, this is not super clear, sorry. Still, it makes sense. Moreover, it gives us a direction to look at for manse raising - find/synthesize enough jade to plug the hole, put it where it belongs, restore essence flow.
I get it, but there's a balance of risk and reward here. The comparison here is the difference in information quality/value versus the degree and likelihood of harm to Harry.
He'll perfectly recall anything he sees with the sight forever, and we have a limited ability to help him recover from serious harm. He's pretty mentally tough, but it's a concern. I don't have particular reason to believe he'll face permanent debilitation, but a sharp quality of life decrease in the short to medium term isn't nothing.
The marginal gain here for taking that risk is getting the opportunity to make a better informed crown question, which can be significant but varies wildly in value based on the context. If what we get is something very horrible but also very dead then the trauma he takes won't actually make much of a functional difference. In the case where it's safe to use the sight on we'll still get information from him too, so even if we can't use it now we can still leverage it to get more questions later.
That being the case I'm inclined to be more protective here.
Though it also occurs to me that this could be an opportunity to test some of our new charms too. Whistle up some holographic minions to inspect the place and provide context for our next steps.
You are probably right. I am inclined to trust Harry not to make too stupid risks, and investigating absence of something is likely to be safer than investigating the presence of something, but I'll think about switching, because yeah, I understand the worry.
[X] Use both -[X] First the Sight, to get the broader context
-[X] Then the Crown Question, to get deeper understanding
--[X] Use Occult Excellency and BSM to better understand what you see
The Crown Question is safe, the Sight is NOT. And we cannot cure Derangements or mental damage.
This just risks a major ally for minimal gain.
Use the scene as the focus for the Crown question
If you want to flash the Sight willy-nilly, we learn to use it ourselves.
If you want more information, bring Lydia or Lash here some other time and have them use their own senses.
Just dont expose the squishy wizard's brainmeats to some goddamn preternatural construct of unknown age or origins.
Michael was in charge of his Grace while he was mortal. If Michael misused it, he would Fall.
That was a lot more dire than mortal peril; the only other archangel that had Fallen before was Lucifer.
Death was by comparison, a minor issue. Not trivial, but minor.
My dude, its central to Christian mythology/theology that the Son of God came down to Earth to die and be resurrected.
He literally told everyone who would listen that he would be resurrected after he died.
The death itself was still real, as was his sojourn in the land of the dead.
My dude, its literally central to Christian mythology/theology that the Son of God came down to Earth to die and be resurrected.
He literally told everyone who would listen that he would be resurrected after he died.
The death itself was still real, as was his sojourn in the land of the dead.
I don't see the relevance. The context would be different here as an Archangel who turned mortal is involved not someone who was born as a human and we do not actually know what the White God would be willing to do in such a scenario. Especially with the Heaven vs Hell war going on, there being rules for it of which we aren't entirely aware and Uriel being directly involved on some level with his every action.
Michael was in charge of his Grace while he was mortal. If Michael misused it, he would Fall.
That was a lot more dire than mortal peril; the only other archangel that had Fallen before was Lucifer.
Death was by comparison, a minor issue. Not trivial, but minor.
The Crown Question is safe, the Sight is NOT. And we cannot cure Derangements or mental damage.
This just risks a major ally for minimal gain.
Use the scene as the focus for the Crown question
If you want to flash the Sight willy-nilly, we learn to use it ourselves.
If you want more information, bring Lydia or Lash here some other time and have them use their own senses.
Just dont expose the squishy wizard's brainmeats to some goddamn preternatural construct of unknown age or origins.
The person with the Sight is Harry. He knows the risks, he knows that there are no significant stakes involved. I am trusting him to do his own threat assessment. He has been at the epicenter of a Primordial manifestation. He knows what kind of danger he might be exposing himself to. I trust him not to make such an offer in case he considered risks too high, and he's better qualified to judge them than we are.
I don't see the relevance. The context would be different here as an Archangel who turned mortal is involved not someone who was born as a human and we do not actually know what the White God would be willing to do in such a scenario. Especially with the Heaven vs Hell war going on, there being rules for it of which we aren't entirely aware and Uriel being directly involved on some level with his every action.
Christian mythology/theology is that the Son of God is an Aspect of God himself, become man and come down to Earth to share Man's fate in dying. This wasnt a completely unprecedented state of affairs.
According to Uriel? The risk that he took in Skin Game was of his Fall. It was a very real risk, and of greater import than death.
Uriel was not worried about the consequences of death. The White God could have chosen to resurrect him a la Christ, or simply let him pass on to rest like all, and had another angel take his place and continue his job.
The dude has choices, and we dont know what his decisionmaking is like.
The person with the Sight is Harry. He knows the risks, he knows that there are no significant stakes involved. I am trusting him to do his own threat assessment. He has been at the epicenter of a Primordial manifestation. He knows what kind of danger he might be exposing himself to. I trust him not to make such an offer in case he considered risks too high, and he's better qualified to judge them than we are.
If this was true, we wouldnt be voting for him.
He doesnt know the risks here, thats why we get to have a say in his choices.
And this is not true. Harry has never been at the epicenter of a Primordial manifestation; Primordials do not exist in this setting. Anymore. The closest he has ever been was when Arawn's ritual invoked a Neverborn's name, and even then he sure as fuck didnt look at it with the Sight open.
I will remind you that angels dont allow Dresden to open his Sight around them because it will damage him.
And that the Gatekeeper still flinches from his experience in seeing an Outsider with the Sight.
Canon Dresden still flinches from seeing a Naagloshii with the Sight, several years after the event.
There is serious risk involved here. For minimal gain.
[X] Use both
-[X] First the Sight, to get the broader context
-[X] Then the Crown Question, to get deeper understanding
--[X] Use Occult Excellency and BSM to better understand what you see
We can get more information this way, and if possible an ability for replication.
Christian mythology/theology is that the Son of God is an Aspect of God himself, become man and come down to Earth to share Man's fate in dying. This wasnt a completely unprecedented state of affairs.
According to Uriel? The risk that he took in Skin Game was of his Fall. It was a very real risk, and of greater import than death.
Uriel was not worried about the consequences of death. The White God could have chosen to resurrect him a la Christ, or simply let him pass on to rest like all, and had another angel take his place and continue his job.
Christ is irrelevant to the instance of Uriel's death. These situations are too different with the added context of the Heaven and Hell war which again has rules of which we aren't entirely aware of and Uriel being an Angel involved in it. Your choosing to ignore this for some reason.
Uriel saw his Fall as more important to mention than the chance of death. That doesn't at all mean he gets free resurrections on tap but your free to believe that.
If this was true, we wouldnt be voting for him.
He doesnt know the risks here, thats why we get to have a say in his choices.
And this is not true. Harry has never been at the epicenter of a Primordial manifestation; Primordials do not exist in this setting. Anymore. The closest he has ever been was when Arawn's ritual invoked a Neverborn's name, and even then he sure as fuck didnt look at it with the Sight open.
I will remind you that angels dont allow Dresden to open his Sight around them because it will damage him.
And that the Gatekeeper still flinches from his experience in seeing an Outsider with the Sight.
Canon Dresden still flinches from seeing a Naagloshii with the Sight, several years after the event.
There is serious risk involved here. For minimal gain.
"What are you...!" The words died in my throat, as the magic impinged upon the air I realized it wasn't formless at all, the patterns un it had just been written too small for me to see, but now... now from static emerged script, fractal impossibility made real that burned though the eye and the mind as it grew, expanded, breathed.
The air felt heavy and tasted of brass, the air smelled like the Charity's cookies, which I'd been lucky enough to taste only once. I'm soulgazing her... no, that's impossible, I've already....
The MAKERS did not know what they had wrought. They sought... champ... wearing gilded collars, gestalt-reflections of their own magnificence. But the Green Sun... were more... ever ant... Within them slept a greater power than the... own: the power to... nature and be REBORN. A new era is at hand. THE WHEEL TURNS.
The Sight does not work like that, some distant part of my mind says in defiance of the fact that is clearly did as my Inner Eye was blasted open by light and music, space and time.
"Essence my host, that is the Essence of one who is Becoming," I heard Lash whisper into my ear.
"Becoming what?" I asked, for once not even thinking of the implications of who I was asking.
"That which she is." There was something in her voice I had not heard before and it scared the shit out of me, awe.
Yes, this is the kind of thing that can lead to a deeper understanding of magic, mechanically a higher Arette. Hell if he keeps getting blasted with Age of Legends lore he might get a very exotic specialization out of it
Harry now has a fragment of literal Yozis holy text forever inscribed into his memory, on the plus side if he had rolled 5+ successes he would have seen 'Yozis' instead of 'MAKERS' which, because he was not actually reading text, but bearing witness to an act of cosmic significance, would have come with a vague understanding of what the Yozis were (?) mutilated world-creating titans, turned demons who became their own Hells.
This is not canon Harry anymore. He has much more experience, and likely has done much more work in order to learn how to safely see higher level beings. He is living with one, I remind you.
Pentagonal-shaped plug sounds like a pentagram.
Im getting the feeling that plug was used for building Demonreach. Especially since the person who asked for it is supposed to have lived across the water.
In which case, Im even less inclined to ask Dresden to use his Sight on it.
Thats a quick path to psychic trauma, and we really dont need Harry bedridden if the Denarians choose to make a house call soon. Especially since we have wizard trainees in town, and Peabody is next month.
VOTE [X] Use a Crown Question
-[X]Scene focus
-[X] All Things Betray + Occult Excellency + Boiling Sea Mastery
RATIONALE
ATB makes Perception + Occult rolls easier, reducing the DCs by -3.
Combined with BSM, it reduces the roll difficulty by -4DC.
Use the Crown, then Lydia, then Lash.
Thats in order of safety, and people with mental defenses.
If its safe, then we consider letting Harry use the Sight on it.
This is not canon Harry anymore. He has much more experience, and likely has done much more work in order to learn how to safely see higher level beings. He is living with one, I remind you.
I'm not sure how realistic that is. Harry is known to use the Sight when he shouldn't in canon as his need to know sometimes overcomes his sense and that also seems to be the case with Molly. He at least thought of using the Sight on her clone when there was no need.
How would he even go about "learning how to safely see higher level beings"? That doesn't sound like something a Wizard can actually do with the Sight. Either the Sight is open or it isn't there's no halfway point, either you get blasted with SAN damage or you don't.
I'm not sure how realistic that is. Harry is known to use the Sight when he shouldn't in canon as his need to know sometimes overcomes his sense and that also seems to be the case with Molly. He at least thought of using the Sight on her clone when there was no need.
How would he even go about "learning how to safely see higher level beings"? That doesn't sound like something a Wizard can actually do with the Sight. Either the Sight is open or it isn't there's no halfway point, either you get blasted with SAN damage or you don't.
We literally helped him not take san damage from looking on the inside of an exaltation. I think we also wrote him a primer but I'm going to go back to get a quote.
Christ is irrelevant to the instance of Uriel's death. These situations are too different with the added context of the Heaven and Hell war which again has rules of which we aren't entirely aware of and Uriel being an Angel involved in it. Your choosing to ignore this for some reason.
Uriel saw his Fall as more important to mention than the chance of death. That doesn't at all mean he gets free resurrections on tap but your free to believe that.
Christ is very much relevant to this.
If the Son of God was resurrected right here, then resurrection of a lesser (powerful, but lesser) angelic entity is not really an issue if the White God chose to do so. Whether he chooses to do so is His plan, which Uriel considered worth trusting.
And yes, Uriel saw the potential of a Fall as more important.
This is not canon Harry anymore. He has much more experience, and likely has done much more work in order to learn how to safely see higher level beings. He is living with one, I remind you.
No he isnt.
As late as Battle Grounds, Mac still stops Year 14 Dresden from using the Sight on him for fear of him suffering SAN damage.
The Gatekeeper himself, who literally works on the Outer Gates for the last millenium, cautions Winter Knight Dresden against using the Sight on Outsiders and still flinches at the memory of having done so.
Thats a Dresden in Year 12 of his career, after dying and coming back and surviving Mab's bootcamp.
This Dresden is still in Year 7 of the series.
He hasnt even done the personal retraining that he did in canon to handle taking on Molly as an apprentice. He's more experienced in some ways than his canon counterpart at the same point in time, but he isnt that much more experienced.
[X] Use both
-[X] First the Sight, to get the broader context
-[X] Then the Crown Question, to get deeper understanding
--[X] Use Occult Excellency and BSM to better understand what you see
No he isnt.
As late as Battle Grounds, Mac still stops Year 14 Dresden from using the Sight on him for fear of him suffering SAN damage.
The Gatekeeper himself, who literally works on the Outer Gates for the last millenium, cautions Winter Knight Dresden against using the Sight on Outsiders and still flinches at the memory of having done so.
Thats a Dresden in Year 12 of his career, after dying and coming back and surviving Mab's bootcamp.
This Dresden is still in Year 7 of the series.
He hasnt even done the personal retraining that he did in canon to handle taking on Molly as an apprentice. He's more experienced in some ways than his canon counterpart at the same point in time, but he isnt that much more experienced.
He currently has knowledge and insight that canon Dresden never gets. Like instructions on how to use the Sight safely when gazing at stuff like Exaltations.
Exaltations are some of the scariest things in the cosmos one could behold. They are the weapons made to defeat Primordials.
We literally helped him not take san damage from looking on the inside of an exaltation. I think we also wrote him a primer but I'm going to go back to get a quote.
Christ is very much relevant to this.
If the Son of God was resurrected right here, then resurrection of a lesser (powerful, but lesser) angelic entity is not really an issue if the White God chose to do so. Whether he chooses to do so is His plan, which Uriel considered worth trusting.
The only way you can say that is if you have a list of the Heaven Hell War rules what's allowed and what isn't in regards to the Angels on both sides. Again though your free to believe that he has resurrections on tap it's still conjecture.
[X] Use both
-[X] First the Sight, to get the broader context
-[X] Then the Crown Question, to get deeper understanding
--[X] Use Occult Excellency, All Things Betray and BSM to better understand what you see
I was addressing the second part of your quote I should have cut or quoted better there. Harry is prone to just using his sight however the hell he feels like it, but it's his so the only one who has a problem with it is him.
