Fanatic says what.
Guving the empror too much credit and benfit of doubt here there corax.
Good chapter
Echoes of Creation (30k/Exalted)
- Thread starter Yzarc
- Start date
- Crossover
Guving the empror too much credit and benfit of doubt here there corax.
Good chapter
Hmm. Just going back a step.
So, this poor man was possessed by a daemon. A daemon, a creature of the Chaos Gods.
Now, daemonic possession doesn't inevitably have to mean that a person's soul gets eaten and they're mutated into a chaos spawn. If a daemon chooses to play nice then none of that has to happen.
I can see why he immediately jumped topic to the other Servitor. The one that wasn't being tortured and having his soul eaten by one of his colleagues.
But seriously, we need to come up with something better than the dull blade write-in. I really don't think it addresses the hypocrisy point at all.
Are will reword, I didn't mean that. What I mean is that we made the big picture the priority so accepted the continuing harm to the servitor.
Will edit:
[X] Sometimes, there are no good choices. We can only judge between which sets of likely consequences we believe will be worse. When we make such a choice, we cannot blind ourselves to those who suffer those consequences, because down that path lies tyranny. But we also cannot let the fear of the choice prevent us making it, for the choice not to choose, or to only solve those problems in front of our eyes is to let evil win by default or on the wider scale. We should acknowledge our error here, not for our choice, for I believe that in time working with the Archmagos will save many more than we could have saved that day had we chosen differently, but for not acknowledging the continuing suffering inflicted on those men by not making them our priority.
So, this poor man was possessed by a daemon. A daemon, a creature of the Chaos Gods.
Now, daemonic possession doesn't inevitably have to mean that a person's soul gets eaten and they're mutated into a chaos spawn. If a daemon chooses to play nice then none of that has to happen.
I can see why he immediately jumped topic to the other Servitor. The one that wasn't being tortured and having his soul eaten by one of his colleagues.
But seriously, we need to come up with something better than the dull blade write-in. I really don't think it addresses the hypocrisy point at all.
Are will reword, I didn't mean that. What I mean is that we made the big picture the priority so accepted the continuing harm to the servitor.
Will edit:
[X] Sometimes, there are no good choices. We can only judge between which sets of likely consequences we believe will be worse. When we make such a choice, we cannot blind ourselves to those who suffer those consequences, because down that path lies tyranny. But we also cannot let the fear of the choice prevent us making it, for the choice not to choose, or to only solve those problems in front of our eyes is to let evil win by default or on the wider scale. We should acknowledge our error here, not for our choice, for I believe that in time working with the Archmagos will save many more than we could have saved that day had we chosen differently, but for not acknowledging the continuing suffering inflicted on those men by not making them our priority.
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- Location
- India
You can only save who are infront of you and sufferings that you are aware of. Best imply Lorgar is a human and he need to prioritize based on facts in his hand. He can always change his mind if new information change overall situation.
Thinking about it I might have been too obtuse while attempting poetic speech. This is more direct and less confusing:
[X] Sometimes, there are no good choices. We can only judge between which sets of likely consequences we believe will be worse. When we make such a choice, we cannot blind ourselves to those who suffer those consequences, because down that path lies tyranny. But we also cannot let the fear of the choice prevent us making it, for the choice not to choose, or to only solve those problems in front of our eyes is to let evil win by default or on the wider scale. We should acknowledge our error here, not for our choice, for I believe that in time working with the Archmagos will save many more than we could have saved that day had we chosen differently, but for not acknowledging the continuing suffering inflicted on those men by not making them our priority.
[X] Sometimes, there are no good choices. We can only judge between which sets of likely consequences we believe will be worse. When we make such a choice, we cannot blind ourselves to those who suffer those consequences, because down that path lies tyranny. But we also cannot let the fear of the choice prevent us making it, for the choice not to choose, or to only solve those problems in front of our eyes is to let evil win by default or on the wider scale. We should acknowledge our error here, not for our choice, for I believe that in time working with the Archmagos will save many more than we could have saved that day had we chosen differently, but for not acknowledging the continuing suffering inflicted on those men by not making them our priority.
why does this feel like the "to save one person is to turn your back upon another" from fate stay night?
can we pull a "the eye facing the fear breaking the cycle" from lobotomy corporation?
- Location
- Finland
[X] Sometimes, there are no good choices. We can only judge between which sets of likely consequences we believe will be worse. When we make such a choice, we cannot blind ourselves to those who suffer those consequences, because down that path lies tyranny. But we also cannot let the fear of the choice prevent us making it, for the choice not to choose, or to only solve those problems in front of our eyes is to let evil win by default or on the wider scale. We should acknowledge our error here, not for our choice, for I believe that in time working with the Archmagos will save many more than we could have saved that day had we chosen differently, but for not acknowledging the continuing suffering inflicted on those men by not making them our priority.
Lobcorp played a lot with necessary-or-was-it sacrifice, but you'd have to describe in greater detail which particular element you wanna lean on for inspiration
- Location
- Arcadia
Ah, philosophy is endlessly fascinating. Admittedly, one is far more interested in metaphysics and epistemology than ethics, but ethics is an intriguing branch of philosophy in its own right.
Now, since Lorgar does seem to hew towards deontological ethics, there are many sub-branches of deontology. Kant would argue about acting from duty, along with the assertion that it is the motivations of a person performing an action that make it right or wrong, not the consequences. There is the position that the highest good must be good in and of itself and good without qualification.
There is divine command theory, which is actually a set of such theories, asserting that an action is right if God decrees it to be right.
Another formulation would be Ross' deontological pluralism. Ross objected to Kant's formulation, which was monistic. For Kant, there was only one principle for the foundation, which was the categorical imperative. Ross, however, believed in the plurality of prima facie duties to assess what is right. Some would be from the individual's own previous actions, such as the duty of fidelity and the duty of reparation, essentially matters such as being honest, honoring promises, and rendering atonement for wrongs that one has previously committed. Other such duties are determined by the actions of others beyond the individual. They would include the duties of gratitude, non-injury, beneficence, self-improvement, and justice.
Of course, for pluralists, a major problem is what happens when one duty conflicts with another, causing a moral dilemma. To address the situation, Ross made a distinction between prima facie duties and absolute duties. Prima facie duties are generalized principles, and their validity should be self-evident. However, they do not take all factors of a situation into consideration. Absolute duty, however, would be specific to a given situation, taking all factors of the specific context into account. It needs to be performed on a case-by-case basis. It would be absolute duty that determines what is right and wrong.
Then, there is contemporary deontology. In this case, there would be a distinction between deontic and epistemic authority. For epistemic authority, it would be something like the relationship between teacher and student. The teacher wields epistemic authority in making declarative sentences to students. The students can presume that the declarative sentences are appropriate and reliable knowledge but are not bound to accept or obey them.
Deontic authority, on the other hand, would be more like the relationship between an employer and employee. An employee is obliged to accept an employer's order, regardless of whether the order is reliable or appropriate.
As for attempts to reconcile deontology and consequentialism, there would be Frances Kamm's "Principle of Permissible Harm". Essentially, one may cause harm to save more, but it is contingent upon the harm being an aspect or effect of the greater good itself. It goes into the trolley problem. The argument is that one would find it impermissible to harvest one person's organs to save five others, yet when it comes to the trolley problem, one would find it permissible to divert the trolley so that it only kills one person instead of five.
There is threshold deontology, which argues that rules and laws should be the framework for governance up to a certain point, regardless of adverse consequences. However, when the severity of the consequences crosses a stipulated threshold, consequentialism should be the utilized framework instead.
There would also be the attempts to assign a jurisdiction each to deontology and consequentialism.
Now, since Lorgar does seem to hew towards deontological ethics, there are many sub-branches of deontology. Kant would argue about acting from duty, along with the assertion that it is the motivations of a person performing an action that make it right or wrong, not the consequences. There is the position that the highest good must be good in and of itself and good without qualification.
There is divine command theory, which is actually a set of such theories, asserting that an action is right if God decrees it to be right.
Another formulation would be Ross' deontological pluralism. Ross objected to Kant's formulation, which was monistic. For Kant, there was only one principle for the foundation, which was the categorical imperative. Ross, however, believed in the plurality of prima facie duties to assess what is right. Some would be from the individual's own previous actions, such as the duty of fidelity and the duty of reparation, essentially matters such as being honest, honoring promises, and rendering atonement for wrongs that one has previously committed. Other such duties are determined by the actions of others beyond the individual. They would include the duties of gratitude, non-injury, beneficence, self-improvement, and justice.
Of course, for pluralists, a major problem is what happens when one duty conflicts with another, causing a moral dilemma. To address the situation, Ross made a distinction between prima facie duties and absolute duties. Prima facie duties are generalized principles, and their validity should be self-evident. However, they do not take all factors of a situation into consideration. Absolute duty, however, would be specific to a given situation, taking all factors of the specific context into account. It needs to be performed on a case-by-case basis. It would be absolute duty that determines what is right and wrong.
Then, there is contemporary deontology. In this case, there would be a distinction between deontic and epistemic authority. For epistemic authority, it would be something like the relationship between teacher and student. The teacher wields epistemic authority in making declarative sentences to students. The students can presume that the declarative sentences are appropriate and reliable knowledge but are not bound to accept or obey them.
Deontic authority, on the other hand, would be more like the relationship between an employer and employee. An employee is obliged to accept an employer's order, regardless of whether the order is reliable or appropriate.
As for attempts to reconcile deontology and consequentialism, there would be Frances Kamm's "Principle of Permissible Harm". Essentially, one may cause harm to save more, but it is contingent upon the harm being an aspect or effect of the greater good itself. It goes into the trolley problem. The argument is that one would find it impermissible to harvest one person's organs to save five others, yet when it comes to the trolley problem, one would find it permissible to divert the trolley so that it only kills one person instead of five.
There is threshold deontology, which argues that rules and laws should be the framework for governance up to a certain point, regardless of adverse consequences. However, when the severity of the consequences crosses a stipulated threshold, consequentialism should be the utilized framework instead.
There would also be the attempts to assign a jurisdiction each to deontology and consequentialism.
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- Pronouns
- ImBuda
[X] Sometimes, there are no good choices. We can only judge between which sets of likely consequences we believe will be worse. When we make such a choice, we cannot blind ourselves to those who suffer those consequences, because down that path lies tyranny. But we also cannot let the fear of the choice prevent us making it, for the choice not to choose, or to only solve those problems in front of our eyes is to let evil win by default or on the wider scale. We should acknowledge our error here, not for our choice, for I believe that in time working with the Archmagos will save many more than we could have saved that day had we chosen differently, but for not acknowledging the continuing suffering inflicted on those men by not making them our priority
- Location
- Brazil
[X] Sometimes, there are no good choices. We can only judge between which sets of likely consequences we believe will be worse. When we make such a choice, we cannot blind ourselves to those who suffer those consequences, because down that path lies tyranny. But we also cannot let the fear of the choice prevent us making it, for the choice not to choose, or to only solve those problems in front of our eyes is to let evil win by default or on the wider scale. We should acknowledge our error here, not for our choice, for I believe that in time working with the Archmagos will save many more than we could have saved that day had we chosen differently, but for not acknowledging the continuing suffering inflicted on those men by not making them our priority.
- Location
- Arcadia
Of course, it would not be suitable, but it is quite comical to imagine, in this situation, presenting the same argument as Chidi did in the midst of his breakdown. Dismiss virtue ethics, consequentialism, and deontology. The system that should be followed is nihilism. The world is empty. There is no point to anything, and you are just going to die in the end, so do whatever. In Chidi's case, it would be eating the chili filled with the peeps confection.
[X] Sometimes, there are no good choices. We can only judge between which sets of likely consequences we believe will be worse. When we make such a choice, we cannot blind ourselves to those who suffer those consequences, because down that path lies tyranny. But we also cannot let the fear of the choice prevent us making it, for the choice not to choose, or to only solve those problems in front of our eyes is to let evil win by default or on the wider scale. We should acknowledge our error here, not for our choice, for I believe that in time working with the Archmagos will save many more than we could have saved that day had we chosen differently, but for not acknowledging the continuing suffering inflicted on those men by not making them our priority.
I was tempted to make a more meta-ethical argument, but decided it would probably be a mistake, as Lorgar seems to have strong ethical priors.
We could have taken a more Socratic method, and instead ask our Lorgar to examine why Daemon Lorgar words discomforted him. What is his intuition that leads him to feel this? If it's a feeling of inconsistency, why is consistency valuable? Why should ethical judgments be universal rather than particular? Is his unhappiness at witnessing these people's suffering merely an aesthetic distaste sublimated into an ethical form, or is it really a claim to some form of 'real' moral judgment?
I mean, I'm not sure what Fan remembers from Creation, or what actually happened there, but he's for a fair claim on being the heir to the inventors of actual philosophical metaphysics, so he can make claims about the objective reality of morality because they literally made the Virtues.
I suspect this might be a very different vision quest if we knew the Four Arguments of Virtue, and even more different if we knew Cosmic Transcendence of Compassion.
Creation had very consistent moral values built into the very foundations of nature, unfortunately those values were 'The Strong to as they will and the Weak suffer what they must'. The Primordials were tyrannical assholes who deserves to be overthrown, but since they were the creator gods the Neverborn were still able to level the Great Curse on the Exalted and make it so every age would be worse and lesser than the last.
In defense of consequentialism there is a perfectly valid reason not to harvest the organs of one person to save five others and that is because you do not want generalized organ harvesting to be a thing society does, it devalues the human condition in a way that is far too easy to abuse. A lot of the more extreme and brutal consequentialist arguments fail when one considers the broader social implication of making them acceptable
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Well, we could try something like:
[] What is Compassion? And, in balance, what is Conviction? I can ask the same of Valor, and of Temperance. Is a good man one with neither a deficit nor surplus of either, one who can balance extremes of both, or something else? The true architects of reality defined the Virtues to guide their creations, but do they lead to goodness, or just greatness. In this case, as too often, there are no good choices. We can only balance the Virtues and judge between which sets of likely consequences we believe will be worse. When we make such a choice, we cannot blind ourselves to those who suffer those consequences, because down that path lies Conviction's tyranny. But we also cannot let the fear of the choice overcome our Valor and prevent us making it, for the choice not to choose, or to only solve those problems in front of our eyes is to let evil win by default or on the wider scale. We should acknowledge our error here, not for our choice, for I believe that with Temperance in time working with the Archmagos will save many more than we could have saved that day had we chosen differently, but for not having the Compassion to acknowledge the continuing suffering inflicted on those men by not making them our priority.
If we suspect the Virtues have survived as real metaphysically important cosmological constants - and there's actually a neat way they could have done, as the four Chaos gods strongly resemble Limit Breaks of the Four Virtues (Khorne - Valor, Nurgle - Compassion, Tzeentch - Conviction, Slaneesh - Temperance).
I was thinking of how to get Lorgar a decent philosophical education, and it inspired me to come up with this, with some extra options that came up along the way, which rather got away from me, and that's to exploit CCP. Possibly the most transformative option might be the one to create useful essence one servants, although creating population is a close second. The big options I can see investigating if we can create are:
- Alternative mortal teachers with very different perspectives to Fan.
- Non-humans. The Eldar could make more Eldar with their Reality Engines, which is what CCP is a (smaller scale) version of. Perhaps we could spin a Pre-Fall Eldar one out of the Aethyr. Not a very powerful one, just enough to be interesting.
- Enlightened martial arts who know the base charms for some Terrestrial Martial Arts.
- Demons with capabilities/charms we can at least loosely/specify.
- Spirits to reinforce the world soul with or broaden its themes - for example, usually worldsouls encompass nature spirits, but Colchis was a long settled centre of high tech civilisation. Perhaps some spirits with themes around that may be possible. For example, creating nascent city (well, village, at the moment) spirits or a celestial bureaucracy to manage the interaction between humans and the (super)natural world. There might be some overlap with Lorgar's exploration of the Cult Mechanicus' theology.
- Space Marines. Specifically echoes of a squad of Imperial Heralds lost in the Waro from a teleportation or Gellar Field mishap.
- Other kinds of people with peak/superhuman talents. Navigators, Psykers, people with useful genecrafted and bionic augments. These could be officers or community leaders for some of the people options below.
There's then the people option. By assumption is that people (and the retainers above) are created with a narrative, a synthetic, but personally plausible history that we weave for them which explains their presence. The kinds of options I can see being appealing are things like:
- A lost tribe of Colchis' nomads who were driven into the Wound and have wandered until we found them and lead them out.
- A military unit from DAoT Colchis that was thrown out of time by an achronal weapon until we retrieved them.
- A civilian community from DAoT Colchis that made it to the bunker and engaged a stasis lock in time to ride out the apocalypse. For extra bonus points, make it the bunker beneath a university .
- The echoes and remnants in the Warp of those who chose to die rather than kneel before the Covenant made flesh to avenge the killers of their original selves.
- A quasi-dream like apparently time warping/montage in which the tribe has generations of peace and isolation to organically grow in numbers while its members are sheltered from aging past their prime. Could work well with simultaneously Shaping the land, wealth, and other things.
- A cohort of minor machine spirits awakened within the newly forged technology the tribe has made.
- A legion of petty demons who can bind themselves to the community members as a combination of invisible friend, sounding board, emotional support demon, and if people become psykers, spell familiar, like the Thousand Sons' Tuterlaries.
In terms of other options, some things really depend on what the limits of Shaping mundane technology and architects rather than magical artifacts and manses. To take one of my precious examples, if we shaped a community that survived the end of the DAoT in a stasis locked bunker, would we need to Shape a narrative that all the technology in it was fried by the process; or could we shape a bunker with technological life support, workshops, vertical farms, shielding, cloaking, and whatever else a DAoT bunker might have to help its inhabitants survibr the aftermath of an apocalypse. If so, how many successes might it take.
In canon, the Chaos Gods dumped Lorgar into the worst known world for a Primarch. Not only was it a giant trap, but it was a giant trap where the bait was a piece of rubbish. Not bad enough to be a Deathworod that honed the population and the Primarch, not good enough to have many useful resources or infrastructure when time came to get conquering.
With CCP we can potentially change that. We can rewrite the narrative of the world. Who cares that originally there wasn't a bunker of survivors from a DAoT university that Lorgar would encounter aged six, allowing him to synthesise the spiritual wisdom of the tribes, the theology of the Cult Mechanicus, and the sophisticated philosophical development that humanity reached at their height. Now there was. Hell, say there was a 'young' Eldar slumming at the university because he enjoyed styling on human philosophers just to see what happens.
And with the way the Warp works, with possible futures, pasts, and alternate presents being accessible through it, whose to say that things we create with CCP aren't real somewhere, and we've just instantiated them into this reality. With CCP we could be reaching out into what could have been, and making it have happened. Or at least that's what we should probably say if anyone calls us on it.
It's a shame we're limited to only making ten thousand people at a time with CCP. If we could develop extension charms to it things like 'restoring' whole cities from pre-Apocalypse Colchis might be possible.
There are also potentially other options;
Depending on whether my interpretation of Wyld Shaping/CCP is correct, that it's building and telling a narrative history so convincing that it's almost real and then using essence to push it over the boundary, I wonder if Lorgar could develop Mythos powers to allow him to collaborate with Fan and magnify his efforts. As I noted above, CCP style effects exist in the setting in the form of the Eldar's Reality Engines, so doing this to/with the Warp is something local powersets can achieve. Lorgar can build incredibly convincing narratives, he has a Mythos that has tried to adapt to SWLiHN's Essence, and he has his own awakened Essence.
Another potential avenue that might help is Sorcery. Lorgar has very high Weight, so if we use VEE we may be able to grant him some form of Sorcery that would help. Perhaps something that would somehow prime the local Aethyr before we Shape it, or format it into the desired configuration before we inject the Essence to make it real so we do less of the process.
Another thought on Sorcery and Lorgar, now he has awakened Essence can he gain an Exalted style Sorcery Initiation, rather than doing sorcery the mortal way? Can we teach it to him (and to other Enlightened Essence users in future?).
The other entities that may be able to help with such Shaping are our allied spirits, particularly if we're shaping away from the Wound. They may able to do things like format parts of the local Umbra based on their memories of Colchis at the end of the DAoT, and then we can take that memory as a template to make it real.
There are some other options that the sports may be able to help us with. If they're caught the souls of any psyker-shamans I could see it being possible to use CCP to make them new bodies for the spirits to put them into.
We've already had it confirmed that we can make an artifact to help with CCP, but I also wonder if there might be forms of 'conventional' warptech that would help. Something like modified versions of Gellar Fields that could do things like temporarily freeze a partially Shaped section of the Warp while working on another section, or when a section of reality is mostly Shaped push it the rest of the way to full existence. We'd need to grant Thalassa a relevant Savant speciality for warptech, but it may be possibly bel
[X] Sometimes, there are no good choices. We can only judge between which sets of likely consequences we believe will be worse. When we make such a choice, we cannot blind ourselves to those who suffer those consequences, because down that path lies tyranny. But we also cannot let the fear of the choice prevent us making it, for the choice not to choose, or to only solve those problems in front of our eyes is to let evil win by default or on the wider scale. We should acknowledge our error here, not for our choice, for I believe that in time working with the Archmagos will save many more than we could have saved that day had we chosen differently, but for not acknowledging the continuing suffering inflicted on those men by not making them our priority.
I'm going with Alra's plan
[X] What is Compassion? And, in balance, what is Conviction? I can ask the same of Valor, and of Temperance. Is a good man one with neither a deficit nor surplus of either, one who can balance extremes of both, or something else? The true architects of reality defined the Virtues to guide their creations, but do they lead to goodness, or just greatness. In this case, as too often, there are no good choices. We can only balance the Virtues and judge between which sets of likely consequences we believe will be worse. When we make such a choice, we cannot blind ourselves to those who suffer those consequences, because down that path lies Conviction's tyranny. But we also cannot let the fear of the choice overcome our Valor and prevent us making it, for the choice not to choose, or to only solve those problems in front of our eyes is to let evil win by default or on the wider scale. We should acknowledge our error here, not for our choice, for I believe that with Temperance in time working with the Archmagos will save many more than we could have saved that day had we chosen differently, but for not having the Compassion to acknowledge the continuing suffering inflicted on those men by not making them our priority.
[X] What is Compassion? And, in balance, what is Conviction? I can ask the same of Valor, and of Temperance. Is a good man one with neither a deficit nor surplus of either, one who can balance extremes of both, or something else? The true architects of reality defined the Virtues to guide their creations, but do they lead to goodness, or just greatness. In this case, as too often, there are no good choices. We can only balance the Virtues and judge between which sets of likely consequences we believe will be worse. When we make such a choice, we cannot blind ourselves to those who suffer those consequences, because down that path lies Conviction's tyranny. But we also cannot let the fear of the choice overcome our Valor and prevent us making it, for the choice not to choose, or to only solve those problems in front of our eyes is to let evil win by default or on the wider scale. We should acknowledge our error here, not for our choice, for I believe that with Temperance in time working with the Archmagos will save many more than we could have saved that day had we chosen differently, but for not having the Compassion to acknowledge the continuing suffering inflicted on those men by not making them our priority.
[X] Sometimes, there are no good choices. We can only judge between which sets of likely consequences we believe will be worse. When we make such a choice, we cannot blind ourselves to those who suffer those consequences, because down that path lies tyranny. But we also cannot let the fear of the choice prevent us making it, for the choice not to choose, or to only solve those problems in front of our eyes is to let evil win by default or on the wider scale. We should acknowledge our error here, not for our choice, for I believe that in time working with the Archmagos will save many more than we could have saved that day had we chosen differently, but for not acknowledging the continuing suffering inflicted on those men by not making them our priority.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] You cut with a dull blade and then proclaim the thing that will not be cut unbreakable, behold you ask that we smash out heads upon it in sorrow. There is no perfection in the works of humankind and we are all of us here, despite our gifts, human at the last. Even now the innocent are suffering, they will continue to suffer as we go about our work and when all of us are gone in some corner of the galaxy still the innocent will suffer. The only thing any of us can do is work to ensure they suffer less. This work we shall do with cunning, with patience and yes with an acceptance of the blood that will stain our hands. There is an old saying among the tribes 'the perfect is the enemy of the good' , it cautions us against becoming so obsessed with perfection that we forget to act at all. But here and how I understand another meaning. You demon are perfect in your depravity as your masters have made you, in demanding perfection of your enemies if they are to act you seek to turn the very tools of your destruction against us, compassion, a desire to do better. But all great tasks are a journey and yours Lorgar has just begun. Hard will be the passage and much you will have to overcome, in the hearts of those you would call allies as much as in the wide galaxy.
Just looking at the consequences of this vote. The Archmagos is still around, and I, at least, was hoping to bargain with him for various forms of assistance against the Covenant.
That will be rather awkward if Lorgar is outraged about the existence of Servitors and his Daemonhost.
With this in mind, we may need to at least prototype a proof of concept for a Servitor replacement. An Archmages is unlikely to be motivated by appeals about compassion, but arguments regarding efficiency seem more likely to bite.
The first thing we need to do is learn IC why the Mechanicus bothers to make them. OOC I think the answer is that they believe too much autonomy makes machines vulnerable to daemonic possession. As a result, the Mechanicus integrates machines with (sometimes bits of) biological brains (with attached souls) to do the 'thinking' for them. This is even the case with things like Titans and Combat Robots that are believed to have machine spirits, but is not universal. Sometimes just a machine spirit is enough.
Now, at some point Lorgar will hopefully invent the ritual to awaken Machine Spirits so they can protect automated machines, but that's not scalable as it's too high level and so will be too rare to sustain industrial civilisation. Only critical infrastructure and important people's war gear is likely to have the ritual applied to it.
That, of course, leaves the Primordial approach, i.e. throw demons at the problem. Fortunately, demons can self-replicate, so we may be able to use CCP to create one; have it possesses a prototype Servitor replacement and grant it the Reproduction mutation. That way the demon can spawn copies of itself to possesses subsequent generations of not-Servitors.
This would probably be helped if we ask Thalassa to design a (sub-sapient) animal optimised for bionic augmentation and demonic possession by the species of demon we Shaped, including not-suffering.
Such an animal could be designed to make augmentation surgery easier and less likely to fail, be naturally better at controlling its augments, and to survive longer. It could also probably be designed to mature quickly and require less food and management than a human. Although ideally both it and the daemon would be sub-sapient, they could be engineered to be docile, and when combined, capable of relatively complex behaviour and understanding instructions.
Together, these features would hopefully result in a not-Servitor design and process for creating them which was cheaper and produced a superior result compared to Servitorising humans. This would make it more effective to then deploy humans where their comparative advantage is, in tasks that require a level of thought beyond what a Servitor is capable of.
The other issue is that Lorgar may want to save these particular people. Unless we go deep into the Wholeness Rightly Assured chain, I expect that the Daemonhost is a lost cause, but if we can pay we may be able to buy the Servitor and fix him, even though it would be a bit of a distraction.
Looking back, I have to admit I'd rather assumed that the Daemonhost was an unfortunate casualty of the Archmagos' expedition's exploration of the Wound, not a deliberate creation. He's a bit further along the Heretek spectrum than I'd realised.
This is another good reason to see if we can bribe him to hang around and help us defeat the Covenant, as it would give Lorgar more of an opportunity to hit him with his demigod social skills and encourage him to be a better person. I think that such a task could trigger the Rebel and Faith aspects of his Mythos, but I'm not sure about Illumination unless we get pretty metaphorical.
That will be rather awkward if Lorgar is outraged about the existence of Servitors and his Daemonhost.
With this in mind, we may need to at least prototype a proof of concept for a Servitor replacement. An Archmages is unlikely to be motivated by appeals about compassion, but arguments regarding efficiency seem more likely to bite.
The first thing we need to do is learn IC why the Mechanicus bothers to make them. OOC I think the answer is that they believe too much autonomy makes machines vulnerable to daemonic possession. As a result, the Mechanicus integrates machines with (sometimes bits of) biological brains (with attached souls) to do the 'thinking' for them. This is even the case with things like Titans and Combat Robots that are believed to have machine spirits, but is not universal. Sometimes just a machine spirit is enough.
Now, at some point Lorgar will hopefully invent the ritual to awaken Machine Spirits so they can protect automated machines, but that's not scalable as it's too high level and so will be too rare to sustain industrial civilisation. Only critical infrastructure and important people's war gear is likely to have the ritual applied to it.
That, of course, leaves the Primordial approach, i.e. throw demons at the problem. Fortunately, demons can self-replicate, so we may be able to use CCP to create one; have it possesses a prototype Servitor replacement and grant it the Reproduction mutation. That way the demon can spawn copies of itself to possesses subsequent generations of not-Servitors.
This would probably be helped if we ask Thalassa to design a (sub-sapient) animal optimised for bionic augmentation and demonic possession by the species of demon we Shaped, including not-suffering.
Such an animal could be designed to make augmentation surgery easier and less likely to fail, be naturally better at controlling its augments, and to survive longer. It could also probably be designed to mature quickly and require less food and management than a human. Although ideally both it and the daemon would be sub-sapient, they could be engineered to be docile, and when combined, capable of relatively complex behaviour and understanding instructions.
Together, these features would hopefully result in a not-Servitor design and process for creating them which was cheaper and produced a superior result compared to Servitorising humans. This would make it more effective to then deploy humans where their comparative advantage is, in tasks that require a level of thought beyond what a Servitor is capable of.
The other issue is that Lorgar may want to save these particular people. Unless we go deep into the Wholeness Rightly Assured chain, I expect that the Daemonhost is a lost cause, but if we can pay we may be able to buy the Servitor and fix him, even though it would be a bit of a distraction.
Looking back, I have to admit I'd rather assumed that the Daemonhost was an unfortunate casualty of the Archmagos' expedition's exploration of the Wound, not a deliberate creation. He's a bit further along the Heretek spectrum than I'd realised.
This is another good reason to see if we can bribe him to hang around and help us defeat the Covenant, as it would give Lorgar more of an opportunity to hit him with his demigod social skills and encourage him to be a better person. I think that such a task could trigger the Rebel and Faith aspects of his Mythos, but I'm not sure about Illumination unless we get pretty metaphorical.
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Turn 4: The Third Test
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
Colchis - 831.M30
"Sometimes, there are no good choices," you began, your voice calm but firm. "We can only judge between which sets of likely consequences we believe will be worse. When we make such a choice, we cannot blind ourselves to those who suffer the consequences, because down that path lies tyranny."
Daemon Lorgar's eyes narrowed, his malevolent presence growing more intense. "Tyranny? You speak of tyranny, yet you allowed men to suffer, to be sacrificed for your ambitions."
You held your ground, refusing to be intimidated. "We did make a choice, and in making it, we acknowledged that there would be suffering. But we cannot let the fear of that choice prevent us from acting. For the choice not to choose, or to only solve those problems in front of our eyes, is to let evil win by default or on a wider scale."
The younger Lorgar listened intently, his eyes flickering between you and the Daemon. You continued, your voice steady and resolute. "We should acknowledge our error here, not for our choice, for I believe that in time, working with the Archmagos will save many more than we could have saved that day had we chosen differently. But we must acknowledge the continuing suffering inflicted on those men by not making them our priority."
Daemon Lorgar snorted. "You justify your actions with grand ideals, but those men suffered because of you. Your hope and unity are nothing but illusions, distractions from the harsh reality."
You took a step closer, your presence a counterbalance to his darkness. "Hope and unity are not illusions. They are the foundations upon which we build a better future. Yes, there was suffering, and yes, there were consequences. But acknowledging those consequences, striving to learn from them, and working to prevent them in the future, that is true strength."
The younger Lorgar looked up at you, a glimmer of understanding in his eyes. "But how can I reconcile the suffering we caused with the ideals I hold?"
"None of us are perfect, Lorgar. We all make mistakes. What matters is what we do after realizing them. You have the power to change, to make amends. Do not let your past bind you. Use it to forge a better future." Corax chimed in suddenly.
You placed a hand on his shoulder, your gaze filled with empathy and determination. "Yes, never forget those who suffered. Use their pain as a reminder to always strive for better, to make choices that minimize harm in the future. We must be honest about our actions and their impact, and use that honesty to guide us toward a path that truly brings hope and unity."
Daemon Lorgar's laughter was a harsh, grating sound. "You speak as if your ideals can change the world. But ideals are fragile, easily broken by the harsh realities of life."
You met his gaze, unflinching. "Ideals are not fragile. They are resilient. They give us something to strive for, something to hold onto in the darkest times. They remind us of who we want to be and what we want to achieve."
Daemon Lorgar's eyes burned with anger. "You are a fool," he spat. "You will fail."
"Perhaps," you replied, your voice calm and unwavering. "But failure is not the end. It is a lesson, a step on the path to something greater. We will continue to strive, to learn, and to grow. And in doing so, we will bring light to even the darkest corners of the galaxy."
Daemon Lorgar's eyes flashed with malice. "Your words are nothing but hollow justifications, the same ones the Imperium uses to conquer and oppress countless worlds. They speak of faith and humanity, but in reality, they spread tyranny and suffering."
You frowned, unfamiliar with the term. "The Imperium? I don't know what that is."
Before Daemon Lorgar could elaborate, Corax spoke up, his presence like a shadowed shield between you and the darkness. "The Imperium is a vast empire, claiming to bring order and stability to the galaxy, but often at a terrible cost."
Daemon Lorgar sneered. "Indeed. They claim to protect, to uplift, but their methods are brutal. Entire cultures are eradicated, worlds subjugated, all in the name of their 'God-Emperor.' They justify their actions just as you do."
Corax's eyes narrowed, his tone steely. "There is a crucial difference between these two and the Imperium. They acknowledge their mistakes and strive to learn from them. The Imperium often enforces its will without considering the consequences, driven by an unyielding doctrine that brooks no dissent."
Daemon Lorgar's voice was mocking. "And yet, they claim to bring hope and unity. How is that any different from the Imperium's promises of protection and humanity?"
You interjected, your voice firm. "We do not seek to conquer or oppress. Our goal is to inspire, to bring people together through mutual respect and understanding. We recognize the suffering our choices can cause, and we work to mitigate it, not ignore it."
The Younger Lorgar nodded, his gaze unwavering. "The Imperium's strength lies in its ability to impose order in a galaxy gone mad, but it has lost sight of the individual lives it affects. We will strive for a balance, seeking not just order, but true harmony. We understand that real strength comes from within, from the unity of purpose and the bonds we forge."
Daemon Lorgar's laughter was cold and harsh. "You speak of harmony and bonds, but betrayal comes when you least expect it, especially when one is subject to the harsh realities of the galaxy."
Corax stepped closer, his presence a wall of resolve. "Perhaps, but this approach is not without its power."
"Then you do not deny that power is necessary?" Daemon Lorgar asked, his voice a whisper. "Without it, you are vulnerable, at the mercy of those who would destroy you."
You met his gaze, unflinching. "Power for power's sake is a path to tyranny. True power comes from understanding, from empathy, from the ability to connect with others and inspire them to be their best selves.."
The younger Lorgar looked up, his resolve strengthening. "It's not about ignoring the pain or justifying it with lofty ideals. It's about facing it head-on, learning from it, and striving to do better."
Daemon Lorgar's expression twisted with frustration, his voice a harsh rasp. "You are fools, all of you. The galaxy is a cruel place, and your ideals will be shattered by its painful truth."
Your eyes blazed with fierce light. "Perhaps. But we will not abandon them. We will hold onto hope, we will fight for unity, and we will strive for a better future, no matter how many times we are knocked down. That is our strength, and that is what will carry us forward."
Lorgar nodded, his heart filled with determination. "Together, we will face whatever comes our way. We will learn from our mistakes, grow stronger, and bring light to even the darkest corners of the galaxy."
"You think your ideals are unbreakable?" Daemon Lorgar sneered. "Let us see how they fare against the harsh reality of the future. I present to you the third test."
The air around them shimmered, replaced by the cold, sterile environment of a grand war room. Holographic maps displayed vast star systems, and the walls were adorned with banners of a fledgling space empire. At the center stood the Primarch Lorgar, surrounded by advisors and military leaders, his expression one of grim determination.
"You have unified many worlds under your banner, bringing hope and unity to countless lives," Daemon Lorgar's voice echoed through the chamber. "But now, a crucial system refuses to join you. Their strategic value is absolute, and without them, your empire will be vulnerable to destruction."
The scene shifted to a standoff between the empire's fleet and the recalcitrant system's defenses. Tensions were high, and the Primarch Lorgar faced a monumental decision.
"You have two choices," Daemon Lorgar's voice dripped with sinister glee. "Live up to your ideals and let your people die, or sacrifice your ideals and save them."
The Primarch Lorgar's face was a mask of conflict, his heart torn between his convictions and the lives of those who depended on him. His advisors pressed him for a decision, the weight of their expectations bearing down on him.
You stepped forward, unable to stay silent. "Son, remember that sometimes there are no good choices. We can only judge between which sets of likely consequences we believe will be worse."
Daemon Lorgar's laughter was a cold, mocking echo. "Yes, judge the consequences, but remember that your ideals are at stake. Can you truly live with the blood of your people on your hands?"
Corax stepped beside you, his voice calm but firm. "We must not let the fear of choice prevent us from making it. Inaction will only allow evil to prevail. We must strive to balance our ideals with the harsh realities we face."
The younger Lorgar looked to you, his eyes filled with uncertainty. "But how can I reconcile this? How can I choose between my ideals and the lives of my people?"
You held his gaze, your voice steady. "Lorgar, it's not about choosing one over the other. It's about finding a path that honors both. We must be willing to adapt, to learn, and to make hard choices. But in doing so, we must never lose sight of our ideals. They are our guiding star, the light that shows us the way through the darkness."
Daemon Lorgar's sneer deepened, but there was a flicker of doubt in his eyes. "You think you can have it both ways? That you can uphold your ideals and still save your people?"
"Yes," you replied firmly." You said as you met his gaze, your eyes blazing with fierce determination. "Ideals are not inflexible doctrines; they are guides, aspirations to strive toward. In moments like this, we must weigh the consequences, act with empathy, and do our best to minimize harm."
The scene shifted again, showing the Primarch Lorgar standing before the leaders of the resistant system. His expression was one of sorrow and resolve as he extended a hand of peace, offering them a place within the empire, but not through force or coercion.
"You choose diplomacy," Daemon Lorgar's voice was filled with scorn. "Now, let's witness the consequences."
The scene darkened, showing the devastating aftermath of his choice. The empire's fleets were attacked, lives were lost, the hearthlands threatened and the Primarch Lorgar stood amidst the wreckage, his heart heavy with the weight of his decision.
Daemon Lorgar's laughter was a harsh, grating sound.
"See? Your ideals have cost you everything. Was it worth it? And now?" Daemon Lorgar hissed, "Now, let us see another possibility. Let us see what happens if the young one chooses power over ideals."
The scene shifted once more. The grand war room reappeared, filled with the tense energy of imminent conflict. The younger Lorgar stood at the center, his face hardened with resolve as he issued commands. The holographic map displayed the recalcitrant system, its defenses formidable but not invincible.
"This time," Daemon Lorgar's voice was a whisper of dark temptation, "Lorgar chooses to conquer."
The empire's fleets moved into position, their weapons charged and ready. The younger Lorgar's voice rang out with authority, his tone leaving no room for doubt or dissent.
"Begin the assault. We cannot allow this system to jeopardize our Worlds."
The battle unfolded in a storm of fire and destruction. The empire's ships unleashed a devastating barrage upon the system's defenses, reducing them to rubble. Planetary shields crumbled under the relentless assault, and cities burned as the empire's forces advanced.
The scene shifted to the surface, where the Primarch Lorgar led his troops into battle. His expression was resolute, his eyes cold and determined as he cut down anyone who stood in his way. The resistance was fierce, but ultimately futile against the might of the empire.
In the aftermath of the conquest, the Primarch Lorgar stood amidst the ruins, his armor stained with blood. The leaders of the conquered system knelt before him, their faces etched with defeat and despair.
"You have won," one of them spat, his voice filled with bitterness. "But at what cost?"
The Primarch Lorgar's gaze was unyielding. "The cost was necessary. Your defiance threatened the security of countless lives. Now, you will join us, or you will perish."
The scene shifted again, showing the Primarch Lorgar standing before his people. His voice was strong, but there was a hardness to it that had not been there before.
"We have secured our future," he proclaimed. "Through strength and unity, we will continue to thrive."
But behind his words, there was a lingering shadow. The people cheered, but their eyes were filled with fear and uncertainty. The cost of their security had been high, and the price weighed heavily upon them all.
Daemon Lorgar's laughter echoed through the chamber. "See? Power has brought you victory and security. But all it cost was your ideals. And what of the people? You sacrificed so much for them, yet they do nothing but fear you now. All because you fed them your misbegotten ideals and now they cannot stomach the actions needed to safeguard their lives."
The younger Lorgar's shoulders sagged, the weight of his choices pressing down upon him. "I see now. I sought to protect my people, but in doing so, I became the very thing I fought against."
Daemon Lorgar's laughter was a cold, mocking echo. "You see? The galaxy is a cruel place, and your ideals are easily shattered by its reality. Ideals are beautiful things, but like all beautiful things, they shatter under pressure."
CHOICE:
The game is rigged. There was no victory here, the situation was set up so no matter what happened Daemon Lorgar would win, either Lorgar sacrificed his ideals, or he let his people be slaughtered. You need a good write in here, feel free to call Daemon Primarch on his rigged game but the core of the stunt must still address the impossible situation.
[] Write in:
"Sometimes, there are no good choices," you began, your voice calm but firm. "We can only judge between which sets of likely consequences we believe will be worse. When we make such a choice, we cannot blind ourselves to those who suffer the consequences, because down that path lies tyranny."
Daemon Lorgar's eyes narrowed, his malevolent presence growing more intense. "Tyranny? You speak of tyranny, yet you allowed men to suffer, to be sacrificed for your ambitions."
You held your ground, refusing to be intimidated. "We did make a choice, and in making it, we acknowledged that there would be suffering. But we cannot let the fear of that choice prevent us from acting. For the choice not to choose, or to only solve those problems in front of our eyes, is to let evil win by default or on a wider scale."
The younger Lorgar listened intently, his eyes flickering between you and the Daemon. You continued, your voice steady and resolute. "We should acknowledge our error here, not for our choice, for I believe that in time, working with the Archmagos will save many more than we could have saved that day had we chosen differently. But we must acknowledge the continuing suffering inflicted on those men by not making them our priority."
Daemon Lorgar snorted. "You justify your actions with grand ideals, but those men suffered because of you. Your hope and unity are nothing but illusions, distractions from the harsh reality."
You took a step closer, your presence a counterbalance to his darkness. "Hope and unity are not illusions. They are the foundations upon which we build a better future. Yes, there was suffering, and yes, there were consequences. But acknowledging those consequences, striving to learn from them, and working to prevent them in the future, that is true strength."
The younger Lorgar looked up at you, a glimmer of understanding in his eyes. "But how can I reconcile the suffering we caused with the ideals I hold?"
"None of us are perfect, Lorgar. We all make mistakes. What matters is what we do after realizing them. You have the power to change, to make amends. Do not let your past bind you. Use it to forge a better future." Corax chimed in suddenly.
You placed a hand on his shoulder, your gaze filled with empathy and determination. "Yes, never forget those who suffered. Use their pain as a reminder to always strive for better, to make choices that minimize harm in the future. We must be honest about our actions and their impact, and use that honesty to guide us toward a path that truly brings hope and unity."
Daemon Lorgar's laughter was a harsh, grating sound. "You speak as if your ideals can change the world. But ideals are fragile, easily broken by the harsh realities of life."
You met his gaze, unflinching. "Ideals are not fragile. They are resilient. They give us something to strive for, something to hold onto in the darkest times. They remind us of who we want to be and what we want to achieve."
Daemon Lorgar's eyes burned with anger. "You are a fool," he spat. "You will fail."
"Perhaps," you replied, your voice calm and unwavering. "But failure is not the end. It is a lesson, a step on the path to something greater. We will continue to strive, to learn, and to grow. And in doing so, we will bring light to even the darkest corners of the galaxy."
Daemon Lorgar's eyes flashed with malice. "Your words are nothing but hollow justifications, the same ones the Imperium uses to conquer and oppress countless worlds. They speak of faith and humanity, but in reality, they spread tyranny and suffering."
You frowned, unfamiliar with the term. "The Imperium? I don't know what that is."
Before Daemon Lorgar could elaborate, Corax spoke up, his presence like a shadowed shield between you and the darkness. "The Imperium is a vast empire, claiming to bring order and stability to the galaxy, but often at a terrible cost."
Daemon Lorgar sneered. "Indeed. They claim to protect, to uplift, but their methods are brutal. Entire cultures are eradicated, worlds subjugated, all in the name of their 'God-Emperor.' They justify their actions just as you do."
Corax's eyes narrowed, his tone steely. "There is a crucial difference between these two and the Imperium. They acknowledge their mistakes and strive to learn from them. The Imperium often enforces its will without considering the consequences, driven by an unyielding doctrine that brooks no dissent."
Daemon Lorgar's voice was mocking. "And yet, they claim to bring hope and unity. How is that any different from the Imperium's promises of protection and humanity?"
You interjected, your voice firm. "We do not seek to conquer or oppress. Our goal is to inspire, to bring people together through mutual respect and understanding. We recognize the suffering our choices can cause, and we work to mitigate it, not ignore it."
The Younger Lorgar nodded, his gaze unwavering. "The Imperium's strength lies in its ability to impose order in a galaxy gone mad, but it has lost sight of the individual lives it affects. We will strive for a balance, seeking not just order, but true harmony. We understand that real strength comes from within, from the unity of purpose and the bonds we forge."
Daemon Lorgar's laughter was cold and harsh. "You speak of harmony and bonds, but betrayal comes when you least expect it, especially when one is subject to the harsh realities of the galaxy."
Corax stepped closer, his presence a wall of resolve. "Perhaps, but this approach is not without its power."
"Then you do not deny that power is necessary?" Daemon Lorgar asked, his voice a whisper. "Without it, you are vulnerable, at the mercy of those who would destroy you."
You met his gaze, unflinching. "Power for power's sake is a path to tyranny. True power comes from understanding, from empathy, from the ability to connect with others and inspire them to be their best selves.."
The younger Lorgar looked up, his resolve strengthening. "It's not about ignoring the pain or justifying it with lofty ideals. It's about facing it head-on, learning from it, and striving to do better."
Daemon Lorgar's expression twisted with frustration, his voice a harsh rasp. "You are fools, all of you. The galaxy is a cruel place, and your ideals will be shattered by its painful truth."
Your eyes blazed with fierce light. "Perhaps. But we will not abandon them. We will hold onto hope, we will fight for unity, and we will strive for a better future, no matter how many times we are knocked down. That is our strength, and that is what will carry us forward."
Lorgar nodded, his heart filled with determination. "Together, we will face whatever comes our way. We will learn from our mistakes, grow stronger, and bring light to even the darkest corners of the galaxy."
"You think your ideals are unbreakable?" Daemon Lorgar sneered. "Let us see how they fare against the harsh reality of the future. I present to you the third test."
The air around them shimmered, replaced by the cold, sterile environment of a grand war room. Holographic maps displayed vast star systems, and the walls were adorned with banners of a fledgling space empire. At the center stood the Primarch Lorgar, surrounded by advisors and military leaders, his expression one of grim determination.
"You have unified many worlds under your banner, bringing hope and unity to countless lives," Daemon Lorgar's voice echoed through the chamber. "But now, a crucial system refuses to join you. Their strategic value is absolute, and without them, your empire will be vulnerable to destruction."
The scene shifted to a standoff between the empire's fleet and the recalcitrant system's defenses. Tensions were high, and the Primarch Lorgar faced a monumental decision.
"You have two choices," Daemon Lorgar's voice dripped with sinister glee. "Live up to your ideals and let your people die, or sacrifice your ideals and save them."
The Primarch Lorgar's face was a mask of conflict, his heart torn between his convictions and the lives of those who depended on him. His advisors pressed him for a decision, the weight of their expectations bearing down on him.
You stepped forward, unable to stay silent. "Son, remember that sometimes there are no good choices. We can only judge between which sets of likely consequences we believe will be worse."
Daemon Lorgar's laughter was a cold, mocking echo. "Yes, judge the consequences, but remember that your ideals are at stake. Can you truly live with the blood of your people on your hands?"
Corax stepped beside you, his voice calm but firm. "We must not let the fear of choice prevent us from making it. Inaction will only allow evil to prevail. We must strive to balance our ideals with the harsh realities we face."
The younger Lorgar looked to you, his eyes filled with uncertainty. "But how can I reconcile this? How can I choose between my ideals and the lives of my people?"
You held his gaze, your voice steady. "Lorgar, it's not about choosing one over the other. It's about finding a path that honors both. We must be willing to adapt, to learn, and to make hard choices. But in doing so, we must never lose sight of our ideals. They are our guiding star, the light that shows us the way through the darkness."
Daemon Lorgar's sneer deepened, but there was a flicker of doubt in his eyes. "You think you can have it both ways? That you can uphold your ideals and still save your people?"
"Yes," you replied firmly." You said as you met his gaze, your eyes blazing with fierce determination. "Ideals are not inflexible doctrines; they are guides, aspirations to strive toward. In moments like this, we must weigh the consequences, act with empathy, and do our best to minimize harm."
The scene shifted again, showing the Primarch Lorgar standing before the leaders of the resistant system. His expression was one of sorrow and resolve as he extended a hand of peace, offering them a place within the empire, but not through force or coercion.
"You choose diplomacy," Daemon Lorgar's voice was filled with scorn. "Now, let's witness the consequences."
The scene darkened, showing the devastating aftermath of his choice. The empire's fleets were attacked, lives were lost, the hearthlands threatened and the Primarch Lorgar stood amidst the wreckage, his heart heavy with the weight of his decision.
Daemon Lorgar's laughter was a harsh, grating sound.
"See? Your ideals have cost you everything. Was it worth it? And now?" Daemon Lorgar hissed, "Now, let us see another possibility. Let us see what happens if the young one chooses power over ideals."
The scene shifted once more. The grand war room reappeared, filled with the tense energy of imminent conflict. The younger Lorgar stood at the center, his face hardened with resolve as he issued commands. The holographic map displayed the recalcitrant system, its defenses formidable but not invincible.
"This time," Daemon Lorgar's voice was a whisper of dark temptation, "Lorgar chooses to conquer."
The empire's fleets moved into position, their weapons charged and ready. The younger Lorgar's voice rang out with authority, his tone leaving no room for doubt or dissent.
"Begin the assault. We cannot allow this system to jeopardize our Worlds."
The battle unfolded in a storm of fire and destruction. The empire's ships unleashed a devastating barrage upon the system's defenses, reducing them to rubble. Planetary shields crumbled under the relentless assault, and cities burned as the empire's forces advanced.
The scene shifted to the surface, where the Primarch Lorgar led his troops into battle. His expression was resolute, his eyes cold and determined as he cut down anyone who stood in his way. The resistance was fierce, but ultimately futile against the might of the empire.
In the aftermath of the conquest, the Primarch Lorgar stood amidst the ruins, his armor stained with blood. The leaders of the conquered system knelt before him, their faces etched with defeat and despair.
"You have won," one of them spat, his voice filled with bitterness. "But at what cost?"
The Primarch Lorgar's gaze was unyielding. "The cost was necessary. Your defiance threatened the security of countless lives. Now, you will join us, or you will perish."
The scene shifted again, showing the Primarch Lorgar standing before his people. His voice was strong, but there was a hardness to it that had not been there before.
"We have secured our future," he proclaimed. "Through strength and unity, we will continue to thrive."
But behind his words, there was a lingering shadow. The people cheered, but their eyes were filled with fear and uncertainty. The cost of their security had been high, and the price weighed heavily upon them all.
Daemon Lorgar's laughter echoed through the chamber. "See? Power has brought you victory and security. But all it cost was your ideals. And what of the people? You sacrificed so much for them, yet they do nothing but fear you now. All because you fed them your misbegotten ideals and now they cannot stomach the actions needed to safeguard their lives."
The younger Lorgar's shoulders sagged, the weight of his choices pressing down upon him. "I see now. I sought to protect my people, but in doing so, I became the very thing I fought against."
Daemon Lorgar's laughter was a cold, mocking echo. "You see? The galaxy is a cruel place, and your ideals are easily shattered by its reality. Ideals are beautiful things, but like all beautiful things, they shatter under pressure."
CHOICE:
The game is rigged. There was no victory here, the situation was set up so no matter what happened Daemon Lorgar would win, either Lorgar sacrificed his ideals, or he let his people be slaughtered. You need a good write in here, feel free to call Daemon Primarch on his rigged game but the core of the stunt must still address the impossible situation.
[] Write in:
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Typical Chaos - cheating, while claiming it naturally validates their point.
Let's call Future logar out by tell him what cause him to fall let's see his backstory how he came to be and see how he failed
Oh Daemon Lorgar is really pissing me off, other than calling him out for rigging the game to persuade our Lorgar in joining Chaos we should alao demand him showing his story on why he joined Chaos and that he himself is a living testament of the infinite malice that is Chaos.
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