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Echoes of Creation (30k/Exalted)

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Yzarc said:
It would count as charms but even otherwise, gifts are not yours to grant. More on this later but I may allow themed Gifts if/when you get your own world soul.
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So we'd need something like Gifts of Greater Glory plus the World Soul charm. That sounds a long way off.

Or, presumably, we could have our own Demons give Gifts like in Exalted they could bestow selected spirit charms on people if they had an appropriate version of the Endowment Charm.

Looking at CCP, we can make spirits. Would a spirit we made be able to grant someone a Gift?



Yzarc said:
Just realised that the Nephew would brief you once he recovers. So more on this later before the fight but after the vision quest.

Ignore my previous post on this.
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Fair enough.

I am wondering, more broadly, if the juice of conquering Colchis is worth the squeeze.

Colchis is a very poor, low technology, low population planet. It's a feudal world that's marginally habitable, with the great majority of even the habitable land mass being deserts that can only sustain a minuscule population density of nomads, the tropical regions unsurvivable for humans, and the bulk of what population there is being thinly spread along the coasts in multiple city states.

Conquering earns us a few tens of millions of uneducated (or worse, educated in cognitohazard religious practices) peasants, as the existing professional/administrative class is a chaos cult and will be destroyed as part of the conquest. On top of that, the world has no useful infrastructure or particular skills that would be useful later. It's not as if it's a Deathworld like Fenris, it's just unpleasant and marginally habitable,

To compound matters, the Chaos Gods, spiteful atemporal beings fully capable of perceiving the range of possible futures, including ones where their plans don't come to pass, have had millennia to hide or engineer poison pills into the social, genetic and physical fabric of the world just in case they don't get their way, because they're dicks like that. After all, the whole world and culture was pretty clearly designed in advance as a giant trap for Lorgar to make him vulnerable to eventual corruption. In the event we did conquer the place, I wouldn't want anyone or anything we hadn't personally vetted to leave the planet. I'd quarantine the place - which is something even canon Lorgar apparently tried to do to a significant degree. I certainly wouldn't trust a Colchis native as a member of Lorgar's Legion after what happened in canon.

Even if we disregard the last factor, I'm not sure that it's worth our time to conquer Colchis. Lorgar is the Primarch of making friends and influencing people. A completely unnetworked chaos corrupted world like this is the least useful place for him to be.

I think we should strongly consider beating back this Covenant attack then leaving as quickly as possible. First building a shuttle to take us up to one of the DAoT shipyards in orbit, out of easy reach of them, then refurbishing them enough to make some naval grade munitions and dropping them on the Covenant's cities to cripple them for a while, then build a small warp capable ship of our own, and then going to Thalassa's Forge World. We can then help her boss take over and further uplift his world for a few years while Lorgar works his social magic on a networked society, and in return he'll send a fleet to purge Colchis for us before the Covenant can get back on its feet.

Fan can then return with the fleet to repair the world soul while Lorgar gets on with business elsewhere. I can envisage something like a sorcery ritual to resurrect it, phoenix style, using magitech virus bombs to ritually sacrifice and immolate the current biosphere as a burnt offering so the planet/world soul can be purified and reborn. We can then resettle the orbital stations with immigrants from the Forge World or its Knight World who have converted to Lorgar's philosophy.

And to take it back to the beginning, the issue here isn't paranoia, that this world must be a multilayered trap. It's that the reward for taking the risk that it is is so low that even if there's no chance of it being such a trap the opportunity cost of Lorgar being here rather than somewhere else he can apply his talents more effectively is enormous.
 
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Alratan said:
I am wondering, more broadly, if the juice of conquering Colchis is worth the squeeze.
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We swore to the World Spirit that we would fix it. I do not think we should get in the habit of Oathbreaking. It does not really matter what is more profitable on a moment to moment basis either since the tribe still has cultural and ideological principles, they are not just here to be backup dancers for Fan and Lorgar, they in many ways define the space in which Lorgar developed and they are not going to want to be uprooted from the desert.
 
DragonParadox said:
We swore to the World Spirit that we would fix it. I do not think we should get in the habit of Oathbreaking. It does not really matter what is more profitable on a moment to moment basis either since the tribe still has cultural and ideological principles, they are not just here to be backup dancers for Fan and Lorgar, they in many ways define the space in which Lorgar developed and they are not going to want to be uprooted from the desert.
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Fixing the world spirit doesn't mean mono-focusing on conquering the population though. It means we have to come back at some point, but it doesn't mean that we have to stay. We can take a smart approach to achieve this, rather than just bask our head on a brick wall.

And we're going to be heading off works on Crusade whatever happens. In some ways it's much easier to do that now than later, to set the precedent. Lorgar would probably develop a more appropriate mythos for ruling a slice of a galactic empire and pushing back its frontiers if he starts that kind of thing early rather than limiting himself to a thinly populated feudal world. And the tribe itself has just become used to the concept of embracing positive change. Going into space and exploring the wonders of new worlds fits with that, and with the fact they we were historically nomadic. Also, with the local desert tribes dead or worse, then I don't think our tribe does have any remaining connections to society of Colchis. The Covenant is and always has been the enemy.

Going somewhere else to build alliances to support your eventual return to victory is a completely valid approach, and indeed one more in keeping with a social focused primarch rather than being a freedom fighter in the desert.

Being Benjamin Franklin style of rebel is perfectly in keeping with the theme.
 
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Alratan said:
Fixing the world spirit doesn't mean conquering the population though. It means we have to come back, but it doesn't mean that we have to stay.

And we're going to be heading off works on Crusade whatever happens. In some ways it's much easier to do that now than later, to set the precedent. Lorgar would probably develop a more appropriate mythos for ruling a slice of a galactic empire and pushing back its frontiers if he starts that kind of thing early rather than limiting himself to a thinly populated feudal world. And the tribe itself has just become used to the concept of embracing positive change. Going into space and exploring the wonders of new worlds fits with that.

Going somewhere else to build alliances to support your eventual return to victory is a completely valid approach, and indeed one more in keeping with a social focused primarch rather than being a nomadic freedom fighter in the desert.

Being Benjamin Franklin style of rebel is perfectly in keeping with the theme.
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The problem here is you are assuming Chaos will not just purge the world of life out of spite if we leave which... why would it not? That cuts us off from shamanism and we would be giving them years to work unopposed.
 
DragonParadox said:
The problem here is you are assuming Chaos will not just purge the world of life out of spite if we leave which... why would it not? That cuts us off from shamanism and we would be giving them years to work unopposed.
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I don't think we know that worlds need life to have a world spirit.

Also, there are limits to how fast even chaos can work. This is why I suggested destroying the Covenant's cities from orbit before leaving. That would make it much, much harder for them to organise anything as the majority of their leadership including their better sorcerers and all their libraries, corrupted relics; and wider and infrastructure would be destroyed.

I don't think world destroying rituals can be that quick or easy, even in 40K, as sometimes it takes many years for Inperial forces to respond to chaos cults taking over worlds and arriving to reconquest the place, and we could easily be back in less than a decade at the head a Mechanicus fleet.


Yzarc said:
Votes closed.

Also to clarify, I think there are only a ton of derelict ships in orbit, but if you can quote where there are shipyards then I can add that in.

I know there was a broken Ring of Iron on Medusa but not here?
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First Heretic, page 12, Colchis' orbits are the graves of interstellar shipyards.
 
Alratan said:
I don't think we know that worlds need life to have a world spirit.

Also, there are limits to how fast even chaos can work. This is why I suggested destroying the Covenant's cities from orbit before leaving. That would make it much, much harder for them to organise anything as the majority of their leadership including their better sorcerers and all their libraries, corrupted relics; and wider and infrastructure would be destroyed.

I don't think world destroying rituals can be that quick or easy, even in 40K, as sometimes it takes many years for Inperial forces to respond to chaos cults taking over worlds and arriving to reconquest the place, and we could easily be back in less than a decade at the head a Mechanicus fleet.
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World spirit is the soul of the planet, without life there can be no soul, which means Chaos would not have to destroy the planet, just purge it of life. One good Nurgle plague should do it.
 
Well, on the bright side, making a Ring of Iron for Colchis is now easier than initially assumed and will presumably require less time.
 
Yzarc said:
Huh, whoops. My bad. I guess making the ring of iron got MUCH easier. I will have to rework the calculations.
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Well. Yes and no. We'd be starting with a lot more potential industrial capacity if we could repair it, but in terms of mass even if there were a lot of very big shipyards up there a form orbital circumference is vast, so we'd probably still need a huge amount of material. We'd just have the foundations to build the infrastructure to process it.

Also, a Ring of Iron is a big, dramatic statement, but a halo of individual space stations can also be immensely productive, even if it's more spread out.


DragonParadox said:
World spirit is the soul of the planet, without life there can be no soul, which means Chaos would not have to destroy the planet, just purge it of life. One good Nurgle plague should do it.
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I'm not sure that a planet can't live through geological rather than biological processes, to the degree that it does.

And they can drop a Nurgle Plague on the planet whether we're there or not, or leave it as a sealed evil in a can or as a plot from the remaining cultists on the planet (as we're not going to get them all) and wait to trigger it for when we leave the world to go on crusade. Unless we're prepared to never leave the planet ever we have to run this risk.

They're probably less likely to be able to perform a powerful enough ritual to brew up a super plague if we glass all their infrastructure and most of their cult before heading off into the black than they would be if we're on the ground trying to slowly liberate the planet by fighting them a city at a time. While we're liberating one city on one shore on one continent they could be doing whatever they please on the other cities of that continent and on all the other continents.

Even if we want to defeat the Covenant in the field we're currently so small and so weak that it would very likely be faster to go away and recruit allies before coming back with an army. It could easily take us longer to liberate a single continent on our own than it would to liberate the world with the help of a Mechanicus army.

Lorgar is the social primarch. Making friends and building coalitions is what he's good at. We find ourself on a world ruled by a monolithic implacably hostile supernaturally empowered institution that doesn't have any forms of mass media or information networks. It's almost tailored to make him as weak as possible. Think about things like slave rebellions. There's no mass media or communication networks. The bulk of the population is in city states thinly spread along the coasts of the continents. That means that slave rebellions are very unlikely to spread. Each time we go along the coast line to hit the next city, we'll have to inspire a new rebellion in that city, because there simply aren't private communication links for serfs to speed them along in a pre-modern state, so even if they've heard vague rumours Lorgar's rhetoric has no way to travel. He'll need to rabble rouse in person, which will make the process incredibly slow.

Just about literally any other Primarch would be better suited to succeed in this scenario. We're literally outnumbered a million to one and the enemy is much more capable of empowering their forces than we are. We don't get Mass Training charms. With our community this small it isn't obvious, but we're likely to be fielding troops that are significantly qualitatively weaker than our enemies on an individual basis as well as being unbelievably outnumbered. We also don't have the industrial base required to sustain a high tech army if we do expand it in size, while the Covenant is large enough that if the Chaos Gods decide to tech them up they have the scale and existing governance structures to sustain an industrial economy. We don't.

I think the way to win is to not play the game the Chaos Gods have set up, it's to change the game by introducing new pieces, allowing Lorgsr to use the tactics that best suit him.
 
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Turn 3: End
  • Threadmarks
    • Colchis - 831.M30
    As the sun dips below the horizon, casting a golden hue over the arid landscape, your small group approaches your tribal camp. The journey back has been long and fraught with tension, but now you are on the final stretch. You glance over at Lorgar, who walks with his head held high, the burdens of recent events showing in the slight furrow of his brow. Dharok, on the other hand, is a figure of brooding silence, his steps heavy with unresolved inner conflict.

    The camp comes into view, bustling with activity as preparations for war are underway. The atmosphere is charged with a mix of anxiety and determination. Warriors sharpen their weapons, while others fortify the perimeter with makeshift barricades. Children run about, their usual playfulness subdued by the gravity of the situation.

    As you enter the camp, all eyes turn to you. Whispers spread like wildfire, carrying a range of emotions, relief, suspicion, hope, and fear. You step forward, addressing the gathering crowd.

    "We have returned," you begin, your voice steady despite the turmoil within. "Lorgar and Dharok have faced trials that none of us could imagine. They have emerged stronger, and their presence here is a testament to their resilience and dedication to our tribe."

    A murmur ripples through the crowd, but you can see the lingering doubts in many eyes. Trust, once broken, is not easily mended.

    That evening, the tribe gathers around a large fire. Lorgar stands before them, his golden skin catching the firelight, casting an almost ethereal glow around him. He speaks with the conviction and eloquence that has always inspired your people.

    "We stand on the brink of war," he says, his voice carrying over the crackling flames. "Our enemies seek to destroy us, to take what is ours. But we will not falter. We will stand united and face whatever comes our way. Together, we are stronger than any force that seeks to divide us."

    The crowd erupts in cheers, their spirits momentarily lifted by Lorgar's words. Yet, you notice Dharok standing apart, his eyes fixed on the fire, lost in thought. You make your way over to him, placing a hand on his shoulder.

    "Dharok," you say softly, "I know this is difficult for you. But you are not alone. We are here for you."

    He looks at you, his eyes shadowed with doubt and guilt. "I failed, though. I couldn't bring myself to abandon the Dark Gods. Their promises...they were hard to ignore."

    You nod, understanding his struggle. "The path to redemption is never easy, Dharok. It is fraught with challenges and temptations. But every step you take towards the light is a victory in itself. We believe in you."

    As the tribe settles in for the night, a messenger approaches, his face pale and anxious. "Chief, we have news. Archmagos Zabius Seroniaz is leaving the planet soon. His ship is preparing for departure."

    The news hits you like a blow. Zabius had been a formidable presence, his knowledge and technology invaluable to your survival. But now, with the threat of war looming, his departure feels like a betrayal.

    "Gather the council," you order. "We need to discuss this immediately."

    In the council tent, Haraq, Siobhan, Raheem, and Sven are already waiting. You relay the news, watching their reactions range from shock to anger.

    "We can't let him leave," Raheem says, his voice tense. "We need his technology, his expertise."

    Siobhan shakes her head. "He's made up his mind. We can't force him to stay."

    "But why now?" Sven asks, his frustration evident. "Why leave when we need him the most?"

    Haraq, always the voice of reason, speaks up. "Perhaps he feels he's done all he can here. Or maybe he's found something more valuable elsewhere. Regardless, we need to focus on what we can control. We must prepare for the coming war without relying on external help."

    As the council deliberates, you can't shake the feeling of impending loss. Zabius had been a key ally, and his departure leaves you vulnerable. But Haraq is right, you have to rely on your own strength, your own resources.

    You leave the tent, finding Lorgar and Dharok deep in conversation. Lorgar looks up as you approach, a question in his eyes.

    "Zabius is leaving," you inform them. "We must prepare for war without him."

    Lorgar nods, his resolve unwavering. "We will manage. Our people are strong, and we have each other. That is enough."

    Dharok, though still troubled, seems to find some solace in Lorgar's confidence. "I'll do my part," he says quietly. "For the tribe."

    The next day, the tribe's preparations intensified. You train tirelessly, fortify your defenses. Lorgar's leadership is a beacon of hope, his speeches rallying the warriors and instilling a sense of purpose.

    Dharok, too, finds his place. He trains alongside the others, pushing himself to the limit, determined to prove his loyalty. Though the shadow of the Dark Gods still looms over him.

    That evening, as the stars shimmer above you, Lorgar calls for a gathering. The entire tribe assembles, their faces illuminated by the flickering torches.

    "Tonight, we honor our ancestors," Lorgar announces, his voice carrying the weight of tradition and heritage. "We seek their guidance and strength in the days to come."

    You perform the ancient rites, invoking the spirits of your forebears, asking for their protection and wisdom. The air is thick with reverence, the connection to your past grounding you in the present.

    As the ceremony concludes, you stand beside Lorgar, feeling the unity of your tribe, the bond that holds you together.

    "We will face this war with courage and determination," you say, your voice echoing the sentiment in your heart. "And no matter the outcome, we will remain a family, bound by our shared history and our hope for the future."

    Later that night, the tribe moves as one, each member playing their part in the grand tapestry of your survival. The specter of war looms large, but you face it with unyielding resolve.

    And as you stand on the brink of battle, the departure of Archmagos Zabius Seroniaz becomes a distant concern. You are ready, united, and prepared to defend your home with everything you have. Together, you will forge your destiny.

    But for now? It is time for Lorgar to undertake his vision quest.
    CONCLUSION OF TURN 3
    • Uplift the Tribe - 4xp
    • The Golden metal - 2xp
    • Made moon silver as well - 1xp
    • Learned to safely use Enuncia - 3xp
    • Rival Tribe - 1xp
    • Defied Chaos - 4xp
    • Purified a Chaos Champion - 2xp
    • Redeemed a Chaos Champion - 2xp
    • Started down the path of Anathema - 1xp
    • Talked your way without a fight - 1xp
    • Protection of Faith - 2xp
    • Strengthen your Tribe - 4xp
    • Other
    • Awakened Lorgar's Essence - 1xp
    • Taught Lorgar Solar Hero Style - 1xp
    Total: 29xp + 8xp (Previous Turn) + 1xp (extra) = 36xp

    Costs
    New Ability/Background - 3xp per Dot
    Attribute - current rating *4xp
    Ability - current rating *2xp
    Caste or Favored Charm Charm - 8xp
    Other Charm Charm rating - 10xp
    Merit - 3xp per dot
    Mutation - 3xp per dot

    MARTIAL ARTS = CLOSE COMBAT (You need to have 5 dots to master Solar Hero Style and teach Lorgar the full style)

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  • Threadmarks
    • Alratan said:
    I'm not sure that a planet can't live through geological rather than biological processes, to the degree that it does.

    And they can drop a Nurgle Plague on the planet whether we're there or not, or leave it as a sealed evil in a can or as a plot from the remaining cultists on the planet (as we're not going to get them all) and wait to trigger it for when we leave the world to go on crusade. Unless we're prepared to never leave the planet ever we have to run this risk.

    They're probably less likely to be able to perform a powerful enough ritual to brew up a super plague if we glass all their infrastructure and most of their cult before heading off into the black than they would be if we're on the ground trying to slowly liberate the planet by fighting them a city at a time. While we're liberating one city on one shore on one continent they could be doing whatever they please on the other cities of that continent and on all the other continents.

    Even if we want to defeat the Covenant in the field we're currently so small and so weak that it would very likely be faster to go away and recruit allies before coming back with an army. It could easily take us longer to liberate a single continent on our own than it would to liberate the world with the help of a Mechanicus army.

    Lorgar is the social primarch. Making friends and building coalitions is what he's good at. We find ourself on a world ruled by a monolithic implacably hostile supernaturally empowered institution that doesn't have any forms of mass media or information networks. It's almost tailored to make him as weak as possible. Just about literally any other Primarch would be better suited to succeed in this scenario. We're literally outnumbered a million to one and the enemy is much more capable of empowering their forces than we are. We don't get Mass Training charms. With our community this small it isn't obvious, but we're likely to be fielding troops that are significantly qualitatively weaker than our enemies on an individual basis as well as being unbelievably outnumbered. We also don't have the industrial base required to sustain a high tech army if we do expand it in size, while the Covenant is large enough that if the Chaos Gods decide to tech them up they have the scale and existing governance structures to sustain an industrial economy. We don't.

    I think the way to win is to not play the game the Chaos Gods have set up, it's to change the game by introducing new pieces, allowing Lorgsr to use the tactics that best suit him.
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    I cannot think of a single contra-example of a planet that has a world-soul yet no biosphere so I'm going to err on the side of it needing to be alive

    More broadly I do not think we get to do argue 'probably' here, we made an oath to the things which Fan considered the next thing to his gods before his exaltation. To abandon said beings afterwards because it is more efficient for us would be... problematic. Even assuming that Chaos would not be able to use on side resources to corrupt the planet there are other Chaos worshipers in the galaxy and we do not know where they are and at what level of technology they are. They could just show up and throw a large enough space rock at the planet, there would be on one on the surface to stop it.
     
    Before you guys ask, I have yet to convert any Ebon Dragon Charms and Prayer charms from Cecelyne as I have not had the time to do so.

    I'll look to see how I can make it up to you guys.
     
    We definitely need Principle-Invoking Onslaught. Being able to perma-kill daemons and turn them into magical reagents is a big tactical, morale, and economic benefit. Now, does the Wound count as 'warp-tainted' for the purposes of Constructive Convergence of Principles rolls? And can we use the Land option to turn it into safely habitable, untainted land?
     
    MrRageQuit said:
    Now, does the Wound count as 'warp-tainted' for the purposes of Constructive Convergence of Principles rolls? And can we use the Land option to turn it into safely habitable, untainted land?
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    Yes to both.

    It definitely can be shaped as you want it, provided you have the sux for it. Will need a manse to make it safe though.
     
    DragonParadox said:
    I cannot think of a single contra-example of a planet that has a world-soul yet no biosphere so I'm going to err on the side of it needing to be alive

    More broadly I do not think we get to do argue 'probably' here, we made an oath to the things which Fan considered the next thing to his gods before his exaltation. To abandon said beings afterwards because it is more efficient for us would be... problematic. Even assuming that Chaos would not be able to use on side resources to corrupt the planet there are other Chaos worshipers in the galaxy and we do not know where they are and at what level of technology they are. They could just show up and throw a large enough space rock at the planet, there would be on one on the surface to stop it.
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    My point is that if Chaos can do that when we're not here, it can do it when we're here. Our presence does not stop them from performing a ritual on another continent, or even on this one.

    What stops them is being dead, and we can probably make them dead faster by going away and coming back with help rather than conquering them only with our own minuscule resources.
     
    Raising Close Combat to 5 will require 14 XP.

    However, it would leave only enough XP for two Charms.

    It will be necessary to prioritize. Will fully mastering and teaching Solar Hero Style to Lorgar be significantly advantageous for the looming conflict, more so than acquiring charms like Cosmic Convergence of Principles and Principle-Invoking Onslaught?
     
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    Alratan said:
    My point is that if Chaos can do that when we're not here, it can do it when we're here. Our presence does not stop them from performing a ritual on another continent, or even on this one.

    What stops them is being dead, and we can probably make them dead faster by going away and coming back with help rather than conquering them only with our own minuscule resources.
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    What stops them is us winning and getting space defenses up. Secondly if we cannot stop them our oath could be reasonably constituted as 'die trying' not 'run away and get some help from the stars, we promise'.
     
    Tzaphquiel said:
    Raising Close Combat to 5 will require 14 XP.

    However, it would leave only enough XP for one Charm.

    It will be necessary to prioritize. Will fully mastering and teaching Solar Hero Style be significantly advantageous for the looming conflict, more so than acquiring charms like Cosmic Convergence of Principles and Principle-Invoking Onslaught?
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    We have 36 XP in total. There's more than enough to get all of those things at once, and have 6 XP left over.
     
    [X] Plan the Perfect is the Enemy of the Good
    - [X] Close Combat 5 14XP
    - [X] Principle Invoking Onslaught 8XP
    - [X] Constructive Convergence of Principles 8XP

    Analytical Modelling Intuition will need to wait until next turn.
     
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    Tzaphquiel said:
    Raising Close Combat to 5 will require 14 XP.

    However, it would leave only enough XP for one Charm.

    It will be necessary to prioritize. Will fully mastering and teaching Solar Hero Style to Lorgar be significantly advantageous for the looming conflict, more so than acquiring charms like Cosmic Convergence of Principles and Principle-Invoking Onslaught?
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    We dont need to we just have to use occult mHm as our new weapon. Also Im pretty sure we have the exp for this.

    [X] Plan the Perfect isn't the Enemy of the Good
    - [X] Close Combat 5 14XP
    - [X] Principle Invoking Onslaught 8XP
    - [X] Constructive Convergence of Principles 8XP
    - [X] Analytical Modelling Intuition 8XP

    Ed Also Logar is not exactly weak, he has 10 dices normally and five succeses and the future conflict resonates with his mythos.
     
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    DragonParadox said:
    What stops them is us winning and getting space defenses up. Secondly if we cannot stop them our oath could be reasonably constituted as 'die trying' not 'run away and get some help from the stars, we promise'.
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    Our oath in no way mandates how we go about our objectives, just that we try. It does not forbid looking for allies to help us or demand we fight solo.
    Yzarc said:
    38-14 = 24. So 3 charms if favored.
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    I thought we had 36XP?
     
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