We might! And I will absolutely vote to turn Kana in if I have to. But the hope is that whoever takes Kana (whether that's Amu or Naoto) can convince Kana that it's genuinely in her best interest to stay home.
Shards of a Broken Sun [Megaten/Shugo Chara/Exalted]
- Thread starter Baughn
- Start date
- Crossover
To me it's a toss up whether personal connection (Amu) outweighs really competent high schooler swimming in dots (Naoto) who may or may not be visibly investigating Manticore; and I think that the part of Kana that wants someone competent to take charge might tilt the balance towards the latter being more effective?
(And given Naoto can tutor us in Awareness I think our chances of spotting Shenanigans on Kana's end might not necessarily be better than Naoto's)
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I'll be voting for Amu to continue trying with Kana even at the expense of some important things, but I don't think Amu can currently do that properly with her 0 dots Socialise and the mountain of revelations she needs to process as of this moment; and her lack of experience in other forms of relationships/friendships.
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- Location
- Laniakea
We will just have to disagree on this point, based on her own history with the Investigation Team, I personally don't think Naoto would completely ban her from coming along to Manticore facilities. IMO, the tipping point would be if it comes down to making a choice of letting Kana kill someone or turning her in.
If Kana goes to live with Naoto, I guess then we may find out what Naoto's threshold actually is.
Except it is probably not in her best interests to stay home - as far as Kana is concerned it will be in her best interests to rescue the other Scavengers and especially Big Yui.
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I've never considered the envy thing likely to be a major issue. We had a demonstration in Ami class how mind reading activity between people can work out, even if their strengths and abilities are quite different. Envy in the end often also breeds on not understanding the other and how they got where they got, and with mind reading that is just not so much a problem.
Far more likely issues would be that Kana has for some time now had a pretty questionable upbringing, experimenting on people, fighting her mother, fighting monsters. A lot of bad experiences that probably caused some bad habits as well. Those are likely to cause some friction with Amu. I guess you could view it a bit as a dark magical girl friction with a light magical girl. Not that Amu is a magical girl of course, she's totally not a magical girl, she just uses magic... psychic powers.
In any case, as such long term issues would far more likely be differences between how both approach some problems now. Like one being substantially more violent about it all then the other.
That's my take on this. And obviously in this case time apart is less clear to help, if at all. Perhaps Naoto might handle some of the rough edges, but beating a mind reader in figuring out deep problems can be difficult. Either with Amu or Naoto she'd likely be getting counseling as well, I imagine that would always be arranged really.
I think it should also be remembered that this vote also determines how much contact Amu has with Naoto, be it more distant or more close. With Kana going to Naoto being more distant and her having little say further on what happens with the Scavengers. Maybe that's a good thing, or maybe not, that's up to one to decide I guess.
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
"Magical background" existed as both a Boon and a Bane. In either case it would've been the explanation for why Amu is as talented as she is. Since neither were picked, that is instead purely chance; if you go back far enough there's probably some interesting ancestors, but they won't matter even if you go digging.
It would've been a significantly different story if they had been picked, and I'm a bit disappointed that they weren't. Though it's my own fault for not advertising them well enough, I suppose, and I'm not disappointed enough to complicate the story by offering them now.
Kana got a touch of it instead.
Lulu rather obviously has magical heritage as well, and if you tell her Kana's mother's maiden name you should be prepared for a reaction. Utau, though? …well, there's the Lock and Key. That's at least two arcs' worth of story on its own.
—
But magical heritage isn't as rare in this story as it would be in Harry Potter, nor are the two worlds actually separate. I probably don't need to point that out. I will anyway: The Kijiro group is a massive conglomerate, Easter is a relatively enormous media company, Lulu is literally nobility, and Amu in her canon attracted the attention, admiration and gratitude of the crown prince of an unnamed nation.
A nation I doubt would be a monarchy in our world, considering the royalty maintain their power using explicit magical tools—although the crown prince was the first one there to end up with a Chara.
You're currently studying Lore. So I'm writing an interlude on the subject.
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
A blacksmith who was fully capable of working with raw materials sourced from the collective unconscious, recognised them, and was also willing to act as a fence — presumably selling them onwards. I wonder what he thought the kids were doing. But as Kana points out, when faced with teenagers like those, a sensible person will refrain from poking sleeping elephants.
I could of course pretend it's all a game mechanic, the investigation team didn't actually improve their equipment as they went along, the whole thing just existed as a money sink…
But I won't. Naoto could give Amu his phone number, should she wish to.
I do suspect they were massively cheated.
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- Pronouns
- He
[X] Amu's bid
Nero200
High Priest of Eito, Part Time Nyar.
Velvet Room contracts don't control you, it should be pointed out.
They are about taking responsibility for your actions, which parses as more of a willing consignment of innocence / protections, than as giving up control of yourself.
Saying that, the contract also seems to be what lets the Attendants actually help with your Persona control, so you could argue that there's mind control going on, it's just that they only ever control 'you' in a way that you literally sit down across from them and ask them to do.
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On the topic of vote, since I'm now able to vote again without having far too much information to do so fairly, y'all are crazy.
[X] JPs bid. Trying to manage someone that is half murderer and half groomed mind/soul surgeon who wants to return to the person that groomed her is not something literally any of the options given should be doing. And JP's have one of those Isolation Chambers if need be.
To explain my view on this:
- Amu. Her family is already dealing with Miki appearing, and the yet-to-play-out fall out of explaining what Easter actually was. That happened about 2 hours ago, remember. Adding Kana is going to strain things even further, and I don't see how this actually helps other than slowing things down.
- Naoto. She's late teens with credentials, a gun and a Persona. Not a psychiatrist. The Investigative could help, but JP's would be able to do it better. This feels like a holding action, not an actual long term solution.
- Utau. This is basically leaving Kana alone. Utau can talk on the phone / have contact with her without picking this option.
- Kana. Kana will die. We can argue that she has the right to do this, but Naoto isn't going to let her go kill people, and I highly doubt Baughn would actually let this play out if we voted for it, Amu's 'momentum' as a character will make this into a massive mess.
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Honestly, this is where I thought the story was going once I saw this version of the fight during beta reading. I was surprised when Baughn decided Naoto would be okay with any of the given vote options. Not writing this in myself was half tactical - I didn't want to try to be the person arguing for this.
JP's is far more capable of dealing with Kana than any of the given options. The main issues I see are, first, do we trust JP's enough to hand them Kana? And second, is Kana's mental state actually going to improve if we do this? Or will she see it as a betrayal, clam up, and wait for an escape opportunity? Bringing her in for a single check-up already would have taken convincing.
If we pick JP's, the story will work out in a way that makes it happen, but the "way that makes it happen" might be "Naoto puts Kana in a sleeper hold and then gets Amu to keep her unconscious until Kana wakes up in a cell".
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Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
If you pick any of the canned options, then it will happen. The reason this isn't on the list—besides none of the characters thinking of it—is precisely because that isn't true for it.
You can vote to try it. But by default Kana will be intensely skeptical, and a little shocked Amu would suggest it.
Nero200
High Priest of Eito, Part Time Nyar.
Even if she clams up, they have an Isolation Chamber. In theory, they can solve the splitting issue by removing Kana's ability to kill her Shadow.
That would be a betrayal, but...
If we don't pick JPs, I'm pretty sure Kana is going to end up getting sleeper hold'd by Naoto at some point in the short-to-medium future anyway, unless she drastically changes / Amu UMI's the Shadow parts closer to the controls.
All the existing options other than the last one kind of fail to account for the fact that she doesn't plan on stopping. Her friends are still captured, so unless someone solves that quickly, she's going to be continuing her murder-y crusade. (JPs might be able to solve it quickly, but then we should just vote for them.)
It should probably also be pointed out that the two Kana's have a single point of agreement, which is "We need to go to Manticore."
- Murder-Kana wants to go there to save her friends / kill them.
- Shadow-Kana wants to go home / to leave the Scavengers.
But moving towards Manticore is the one thing they agree about. They disagree about what to do once there, but they both seemed to think they could beat the other, so they might end up seeing who will win while on their doorstep.
- Location
- San Diego, CA
To be honest, JP's bid wouldn't be brought up by Amu. It would be brought up by Amu's parents. Otousan and Okasan can and will probably seak help from the JPs after getting the full story from Amu. Getting help from the JPs becomes more palatable for Kana if there is a chain of trust - Otousan and Okasan trust the JPs after talking with them, Amu implicitly trusts Otousan and Okasan to look out for Amu and Kana's well being, and Kana trusts Amu as her only available friend.
I see that as an issue for a later vote (or possibly for Naoto to deal with). "What do we do about Manticore, and how do we convince Kana it's enough?" That's a separate issue from "Where is Kana going to live?", and doesn't have to be solved by a choice of Kana's living conditions.
I don't mean the magical side of Kana's mental problems. I mean that sending Kana to JP's is likely to lead to a version of her that is entirely unhinged in a completely nonmagical way. Furious over her only friend's betrayal, no longer concerned with morality, and driven to take revenge, and I don't think we can just hope she loses her powers and that will be the end of it. Even if she does lose her powers - not a guarantee - she can cause plenty of harm in non-psionic ways.
It seems there is probably nothing else left we can really discuss? Given that it is currently a tie and that I don't see anyone budging from their positions, how about we take the compromise of Utau's Bid?
Normally it wouldn't be a great idea, but since it's not disastrous* it's failure buys Amu time to come to terms with what happened, to prepare herself and to convince her mom, and also makes Kana more willing to go with the Naoto option if necessary.
And if it succeeds then at least Kana has learnt something useful? (We can make probably make this more likely by spending time with and teaching her in the meanwhile, or installing a Camera/Press Button to Get Help in the apartment)
[X] Naoto's bid.
[X] Utau's bid.
* I am assuming the mild depression can be helped by Mind Healing and change of environment, to be fair.
Normally it wouldn't be a great idea, but since it's not disastrous* it's failure buys Amu time to come to terms with what happened, to prepare herself and to convince her mom, and also makes Kana more willing to go with the Naoto option if necessary.
And if it succeeds then at least Kana has learnt something useful? (We can make probably make this more likely by spending time with and teaching her in the meanwhile, or installing a Camera/Press Button to Get Help in the apartment)
[X] Naoto's bid.
[X] Utau's bid.
* I am assuming the mild depression can be helped by Mind Healing and change of environment, to be fair.
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Something that strikes me about these chapters is that it doesn't seem to register to Outer Kana, at all, that she just tried to murder her best friend. The thought isn't there any of the times Amu examines Outer Kana's mind after the fight, or in the post-fight Outer Kana POV section. It's not the subject of any of the regrets we see.
Even when Outer Kana is starting to treat Amu as something closer to a friend again, when she's saying things like "I wanted to find you in the hospital, Amu. Never think I didn't.", the thought doesn't seem to register. She doesn't seem to see any incongruity between what she's telling Amu and her previous actions. It doesn't seem to register that she would be in a very different position if it had worked, either - probably dead, of self-inflicted burns, and definitely getting a lot less sympathy even if she had survived.
@Baughn, since it'll likely come up in the next chapter, before the characters make their decision, maybe we can get the answer now: is this just the kind of person Kana is? The kind of person who would try to murder their best friend and then forget about it, as if it were no more significant than scratching her nose? Or is it because she's still loopy and hasn't fully pulled herself together yet? Is there going to be a dawning moment of horror or something, or is this just not going to register?
Even when Outer Kana is starting to treat Amu as something closer to a friend again, when she's saying things like "I wanted to find you in the hospital, Amu. Never think I didn't.", the thought doesn't seem to register. She doesn't seem to see any incongruity between what she's telling Amu and her previous actions. It doesn't seem to register that she would be in a very different position if it had worked, either - probably dead, of self-inflicted burns, and definitely getting a lot less sympathy even if she had survived.
@Baughn, since it'll likely come up in the next chapter, before the characters make their decision, maybe we can get the answer now: is this just the kind of person Kana is? The kind of person who would try to murder their best friend and then forget about it, as if it were no more significant than scratching her nose? Or is it because she's still loopy and hasn't fully pulled herself together yet? Is there going to be a dawning moment of horror or something, or is this just not going to register?
Hmm... maybe. I'll think about it. I'd be surprised if it reaches 6 votes, though.
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
She's loopy. She's loopy, but… while she wouldn't have done that if she were in full form, it's an option that's never too far from the surface.
Kana will tell herself that she wasn't trying to kill anyone, and could have controlled her attack well enough to only paralyse Amu, without any permanent harm. She might even be right. I'm not sure how much better that makes things.
...is this supposed to be another no-win situation, like with Saaya? Is Amu supposed to struggle, fail, and realize that Kana was a waste of time from the start? Because Kana is sounding less and less like a character we should actually try to help.
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
Characters that have tried to kill Amu:
- Utau. Used an attack that destroyed multiple trees when it landed. Amu mostly dodged it.
- Saaya. A bit more direct of an obliteration attempt.
- Hikaru. Pulled a skyscraper down on both.
- Nikaidou, kinda; he tried to kill Su. It took half a year for that to sink in.
- Lulu, questionably. Never on purpose, but she just didn't think, and kept powering up people who then took highly insane actions. Some of those actions looked rather scary.
Characters that haven't:
- Kana. She used a purely mental attack, which Amu thinks would have failed even if it had landed. Still not the greatest thing to do.
No, this isn't a no-win scenario. Kana is twelve years old; children at that age change easily even if they haven't just had half their mind turned into scrambled eggs.
Was there a murder attempt here? Yeah, on Naoto. That fireball would have at least hurt her, if she weren't immune. Though I don't think Kana expected to win that one anyway.
…but the part of her that would have pulled her attack on Amu, is currently disconnected.
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- Location
- Laniakea
I am the kind of person who likes to hoard dozens of Tap Sodas and gets the urge to buy back my Personas/Demons after fusion, so I can pretend I never lost them by fusing them. Some of these thing look ugly as hell and are probably have personalities just as horrible based on the sliver of dialogue you get upon summoning them.
But god damn it, they are my Personas.
I don't care if Mara is literally a giant dick, I would rather have it in my compendium than not, hell it was even pretty decent back in my Persona 4 party on account of absorbing Fire and shitting fire all over enemies thanks to Fire Amp.
If we ship Kana off to JP's, chances are we'll be all but cutting ties with her. Even if not, can you imagine what being around Hotsuin and Fumi would do to that girl? If I thought Naoto would be lax enough to let her help investigate Manticore facilities, you don't wanna know what I think about the kind of use I think Hotsuin and Fumi would put Kana to work doing. While he isn't as much of a psychopath in this quest as canon, those two not who you want to spend time around with, if you want to end up mentally stable and socially well-developed.
I cannot imagine that being at all healthy for her at this point. When I was envisaging how JP's could be brought in to help with the Scavengers and Manticore, I was not talking about Hotsuin getting his mitts over Kana.
She's Amu's. She might not be a very good friend of Amu's, but she is still Amu's.
Even if she were a giant dick, I would rather she stay Amu's friend than turned into a child soldier by Hotsuin. Not to mention, like that other giant dick from Persona 4, she pulls her weight. Kana is the one single character with the highest levels in Mind Control that we have access to right now.
Her personality issues may or may not ever dramatically improve, but I am extremely opposed on principle to just cutting her loose.
But god damn it, they are my Personas.
I don't care if Mara is literally a giant dick, I would rather have it in my compendium than not, hell it was even pretty decent back in my Persona 4 party on account of absorbing Fire and shitting fire all over enemies thanks to Fire Amp.
If we ship Kana off to JP's, chances are we'll be all but cutting ties with her. Even if not, can you imagine what being around Hotsuin and Fumi would do to that girl? If I thought Naoto would be lax enough to let her help investigate Manticore facilities, you don't wanna know what I think about the kind of use I think Hotsuin and Fumi would put Kana to work doing. While he isn't as much of a psychopath in this quest as canon, those two not who you want to spend time around with, if you want to end up mentally stable and socially well-developed.
I cannot imagine that being at all healthy for her at this point. When I was envisaging how JP's could be brought in to help with the Scavengers and Manticore, I was not talking about Hotsuin getting his mitts over Kana.
She's Amu's. She might not be a very good friend of Amu's, but she is still Amu's.
Even if she were a giant dick, I would rather she stay Amu's friend than turned into a child soldier by Hotsuin. Not to mention, like that other giant dick from Persona 4, she pulls her weight. Kana is the one single character with the highest levels in Mind Control that we have access to right now.
Her personality issues may or may not ever dramatically improve, but I am extremely opposed on principle to just cutting her loose.
Characters who did not consider Amu a close friend at the time.
Amu thinking it would have failed doesn't make it not a murder attempt. Kana did this:
Vicious force. No remorse. No hesitation. That doesn't sound like a stunner. That sounds like an attempted death blow. Amu agrees:
Kana telling herself otherwise sounds like Kana lying to herself.
I've been operating under the hope that it took a great deal of stress and mental contamination to push Kana to this point. If doing what she tried to do to Amu is actually an option never too far from the surface, if we have to constantly tiptoe around the possibility of Kana doing it again, or the even more likely option of killing the people around us, then I want her far away from Amu and her easily-murdered parents.
[X] Naoto's bid.
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- Location
- Laniakea
The hope is that Kana's mental and emotional health will improve once she is no longer bunking with 2 other underaged revenge-crazed psychics, to the point that this will help her finger ease off the hair-trigger on the mind crush that her Overgrowth has set itself to.
I do not imagine Hotsuin and Kanno being helpful in this regard. Not one bit.
I do think Naoto can be a stabilizing presence, especially since she herself need not fear accidentally triggering Kana. And I think her friends on the Investigation Team could be a good influence too, especially Narukami - he and Kana both share the common circumstance of having a comatose sister they are trying to save.
I imagine Amu's presence would be immediately stabilizing for Kana in the short term, but her household will also be pretty chaotic and Kana will probably starting thinking of her own mother every time Amu's own starting treats her like a daughter. And won't that be about as far from emotionally stabilizing as anything could be. Along with the friction that will probably come up once she meets Amu's other friends.
I have this suspicious feeling that Saaya and Kana would hate each other very much on the surface when they first meet, but somehow end up getting along so well when push comes to shove that it will be scary.
Utau, Lulu, Saaya and Kana together would make one hell of a gang to piss off. I could see them mutually taking it upon themselves to do all the less-savory work that needs doing when Amu gets in trouble, just so their friend can be spared from staining her own hands.
I do not imagine Hotsuin and Kanno being helpful in this regard. Not one bit.
I do think Naoto can be a stabilizing presence, especially since she herself need not fear accidentally triggering Kana. And I think her friends on the Investigation Team could be a good influence too, especially Narukami - he and Kana both share the common circumstance of having a comatose sister they are trying to save.
I imagine Amu's presence would be immediately stabilizing for Kana in the short term, but her household will also be pretty chaotic and Kana will probably starting thinking of her own mother every time Amu's own starting treats her like a daughter. And won't that be about as far from emotionally stabilizing as anything could be. Along with the friction that will probably come up once she meets Amu's other friends.
I have this suspicious feeling that Saaya and Kana would hate each other very much on the surface when they first meet, but somehow end up getting along so well when push comes to shove that it will be scary.
Utau, Lulu, Saaya and Kana together would make one hell of a gang to piss off. I could see them mutually taking it upon themselves to do all the less-savory work that needs doing when Amu gets in trouble, just so their friend can be spared from staining her own hands.
Do note this is with her in two pieces. It's pretty normal for peoples mind to have various divergent thoughts to them which then get moderated and worked out over time. So in that sense sure there are some thoughts under the surface. I think a fair few people at times have had a more violent thought to others that they then moderated away as really not the thing you should do. In Kana a fair part of that is just now in another Kana.
I also personally think it is a very poor idea to use a rather limited slice of time to fully evaluate what kind of person some one is. In this case it's just a time slice with a person in two parts, under great stress, with their friends in a lot of trouble and extreme desperation. Typically I'd say that is very very far from a complete picture. Beyond that, Amu as a mind reader who has far more insight then we could ever hope to gain thinks she's ok enough at heart. Extra information we're gaining from author just says there some further complications, but eh when haven't people had that.
Occasionally having violent thoughts is very different from committing violence upon your best friend being "an option that's never too far from the surface".
I was originally going to chalk up Kana's actions to that extreme stress and mental damage, but now... I'm not taking the risk. And I'm not going to trust Amu's opinion, or her mind reading. She's missed far too much already.
Maybe there's a misunderstanding here. @Baughn, perhaps you could elaborate on just how far from the surface the "telepathically stab Amu in the brain" option actually is for Kana under normal circumstances. What is it supposed to take to get Kana to do that?
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