No. We absolutely can't. 35-45 is probably the range we should be looking at. Here's some tentative layouts, I don't think we should go below 4 because that means we're spending more and 36 spaces is a significant part of our remaining space that we probably don't need to spend.
I think people are getting too hung up on PD as an absolute defense. There's still evasion, and our hull can definitely take a few hits. I imagine a lot of the role of PD is going to be forcing proximity bursts rather than contact detonations in terms of abstractions, because mechanically- it's almost no different than adding to shields.
That's why I edited in the how much power/runtime can we afford to spend question.
I can only reference Jalinth's baseline- and I don't fully agree with that- but the gist of it is at 50 T1s we should have 13 spaces left after power and runtime and a relatively comprehensive set of what all else we need. We can optimize that, and probably get close to 30 space before things get insanely critical but we also have other pending expenses. The 6 fore torpedo launchers I'm advocating would be 27 spaces for instance and we'll want at least 12 spaces for workshops. For every 5 T1s less than the baseline we add ~15 space to our remaining space budget. Hence why I'm leaning towards the 4 is fun plan- after we consider the T2s no facing has less than effectively 5 T1s and the broadsides would have effectively 9 before you consider the radials which would partially cover the broadsides and fore as well as potentially up and down. Aft is theoretically the weak link there, but we just mounted a pair of aft batteries that make that the second most dangerous place for a hostile ship to be and it's far and away the least vulnerable facing when we drop cloak and our shields aren't yet up- because why would we drop cloak with our ass hanging out?
Hmm.
| # | CI | Space | |
|---|---|---|---|
| 4 | Small Science Lab | 12 | |
| 2 | Aux Sensors | 1 | 2 |
| 1 | Matter Printer | 2 | 24 |
| 3 | Large Cargo Bay | 36 | |
| 2 | Small Cargo Bay | 4 | |
| 1 | Heavy Workshop | 15 | |
| 1 | Standard Workshop | 6 | |
| 1 | Medium Transporter Bay | 8 | |
| 1 | Small Transporter Bay | 4 | |
| 1 | Large Medical Bay | 18 | |
| 1 | Medium Medical Bay | 8 | |
| 2 | Small Medical Bay | 4 | |
| 1 | Crew Lounge | 8 | |
| TOTAL | 153 |
I can agree with fore given our prow batteries, but also because the time where PD is most relevant is when we're uncloaking and shields are down. And in such a scenario, we're almost always going to be facing the enemy head on without them in our sides or rear. Thankfully the radials are going to be great for covering that initial uncloaking where we're we've got our enemies where we want them and our hull is most vulnerable.
Mostly I'm looking at the Matter Printer and wondering if we really need that on a ship that's theoretically there for system defense.
I don't thing we have the power or run time to do that.
This looks really good. If we need to cut it down, I'd axe a small lab and/or med medbay first.
I'm reading that as "expensive luxury for a system defense boat," then.
I want us to treat these small beams as the US did 40mm and 5in guns in WW2, if there is deck space pop one down.
I want to do that at some point but we need more power and better computer tech to do that.
I think that "system defense boat" is a dangerous mindset to get into. For the next while, these are going to be our only model of warship, and I'd rather build something that is up to any task, instead of optimizing to a particular niche.
I'm picturing a solar-system-scale Kessler cascade, now. It's not a happy picture XD
Ain't that the fuckin truth.
The matter printer has value in repairs if it's away from a colony. I personally think we're almost never going to be fighting anywhere that's not right on top of a colony. And certainly not before this thing gets refit with secondary computers- but it's important for a lot of people and it does provide useful engineering and repair capabilities. Besides, as others have kinda articulated- at this price and displacement we're obligated to show off some of the secondary benefits it brings besides pure combat- there's value in the optics of this thing being able to fight relatively away from easy repair, and even if the SU is far from expansionistic/imperialistic- it probably also doesn't want to fight a war over it's homes after the last major conflict that preceded it which killed billions.
Yes. Let me fix it.
Keep in mind my list still left 6 spaces empty in case of something I missed or if we wanted to use more aux sensors. We may or may not be able to fit all 10, but I think we can certainly fit 7 or 8.
I am under no illusions about the PD being an absolute defense. I look at it as a threat type limited non-ablative defense. The protection shields provide is limited, shields don't regenerate in combat time without technology much farther up the tech tree. In theory as long as they keep shooting projectiles at us the PD mounts are going to be reducing the damage that the shields need to eat. The survivability onion is used for a reason.
To be fair I don't fully agree with the baseline, and even stated I missed some key stuff in it. I was just running a fever at that point, as I later realized, and wanted to get some illustrative numbers out in the hopes someone else could take it farther.
Which you have done here, thank you for that. Your list of items looks reasonable, and since the exact details aren't what is being voted on I'm not going to look too closely tonight. Among other things tonight was the final boss fight of book 2 of the adventure path, then had me doing all the work in selling loot (a task made easier by my tracking everything on a spread sheet (Yes, I used a spread sheet. I can tell you are surprised)), then going through the massive lists of magic items in Pathfinder to better equip my single class fighter who is also the parties healer and trap disarmer.
This ship is in no way a system defense boat. That would have been the smaller option that we rejected. This is a ship is meant to be able to conduct longer range operations. If we run into someone hostile, if we need to take some kind of offensive action, then this ship class is going to be the one doing it. Given that it has been stated that it can use a normal dockyard instead of the super large ones for a Star Seeker they are going to be more numerous as well. I have every reason to believe that some of them are going to end up doing things like survey work in systems close to home. Just because they 2-3 Star Seekers are not going to be able to do everything, and the Iron Roads are not suitable for the mission.
