Department of Starship Design (Trek-ish)

It looks like we're largely leaving the dorsal and ventral slots open then. Are we thinking of Type 2 where they can cover both sides and forward? Type 2s aren't really worth putting in batteries, and a pair of mirrored T4a batteries to cover each broadside would be cheaper than a pair of T2s and a lot more dangerous- if with less coverage and resource efficiency. The latter matters significantly less if we decide we don't need to be able to continuously fire every single gun all at once, the former is better if we decide on a weaker, higher coverage secondary weapon scheme intended to fire forward when not otherwise used. Theres also broadside torpedoes, depending on if a torpedo fired from the flanks has enough guidance to engage fore and aft.

I think the idea of numerous batteries of casemate T4s is neat and relatively out there compared to dorsal and ventral turrets but I'm not going to pretend that isn't subjective as hell.

Yah know, this ship is likely to be in a fleet of more then one, so I think it be cool to have a doom beam weapon, because if its standard then others of its type in a fleet formation will have that doom beam, and thus increasing their overall threat rating when all of them with cloak decloak and fires their doom beams to wreck a enemy fleet or one super ship.
It's got a doom beam, a dual doom disruptor cannon, and given this vote, a trio of triple barreled heavy disruptor batteries that are each roughly as powerful as the doom beam. These things uncloaking are going to cause nightmares.
 
Turn 3: Project Guardian, Weapons 3/8 (Broadside Main Battery)

Each Secondary hull, it is decided, will carry a trio of forward-facing Type 4b cannons. This will prevent mounting anything else in these hulls besides a Type One or a sensor array, but will improve forward firepower. For the broadside arrays, the Type Two is the obvious choice as a main weapon- as many as fifty of the heavy turrets could be mounted, in theory, between the dorsal and ventral surfaces in paired batteries, though there is significant argument to be made to mount less, in order to allow arrays of Type 4b or 4a cannons be mounted in the following phase of design.
Up to 14 batteries could be mounted on the dorsal surface, in pairs port and starboard. An additional 8 could be added to the ventral surface as well, again in port and starboard pairs.

[ ] (Write-in plan)
Dorsal Hull


Ventral Hull


Please Vote By Plan

One Hour Moratorium

AN: I believe I mentioned turrets. Yes, at maximum establishment it can carry FIFTY. (you will probably not want to do that, however.)

Also small reminder that each of those mounts is a battery of two turrets.
 
It's got a doom beam, a dual doom disruptor cannon, and given this vote, a trio of triple barreled heavy disruptor batteries that are each roughly as powerful as the doom beam. These things uncloaking are going to cause nightmares.


I do love the idea of aliens having nightmares. That make for a interesting interlude or perspective change to the enemy view point of someone watching a ship just disappear and its one of theirs and not just the cloaking ships.
 
I'm glad you are having fun. That's pretty key to quests actually continuing.

I've updated my ships post with the current details of the ship.
Project GuardianConiculiar390ktCruiser (In Progress)TBD - Including
1 Type 3c Disruptor Beam
1x2 Type 4c Disruptor Cannon Battery
3x3 Type 4b Disruptor Cannon Battery
Shields
Polarized Hull Plating
Emergency Force Fields
Cloaking Device
?TBD - Current estimates
Defense: 340
Endurance: 68
SD = 71
BD = 228
Just to have the star seeker stats when it launched to compare:
Mass: 480 kilotons
Hull Type: Ovoid
Secondary Hull: None
Maneuverability: Medium
Evasion: 23
Defense: 0
Endurance: 59
Tactical:

Sustained Damage: 18
Burst Damage: 63
Other: 1
Final Tactical score: 82
Science: 97
Engineering: 286

Science and Engineering don't matter yet, but going up from 0 Defense to 340 and the pretty massive jumps for SD and BD are pretty damn impressive.
 
and the pretty massive jumps for SD and BD are pretty damn impressive.
I went back and did some quick addition, and yeah, nearly double the BD and more than quadruple the SD.

(Yeah, I'm not following discussions too closely, so it was likely mathed out already)

But wait, there's more! *Tertiary/PD array enters the chat*

Edit : Derp, Jalinth has everything mathed out and I greatly undercalculated BD.

The enemy will cease existing before their sensor technician can even report the cruiser uncloaking.
 
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[] Plan Good Coverage
-[] Place Type 2 batteries at 1a, 1d, 2a, 2c, 3c, and 4.

I've penciled this one in. I put the weapons on the ends to cover both the sides and front of the ship. The guns in the 4 slot should cover below fairly well, maybe even getting full fore and aft firing. Hopefully the 1 level guns can cover the top as well.

This leaves 5 positions free if we want to add broadside Type 4 batteries. I was going to put one in 3a, but decided that we could sacrifice some frontal coverage given the main armament. The ability to fire above and below the ship is what I'm aiming for.

To illustrate why I want to make sure we have some wide arc weapons, I've included an image I found. A 40 degree arc is really quite narrow. It gives some flexibility but there is no way for side mount Type 4s to help with a target anywhere except directly beside the ship. The Type 2s can engage targets that are maneuverable enough to stay out of our primary arcs.



Edit : Derp, Jalinth has everything mathed out and I greatly undercalculated BD.
My math isn't perfect, but I am a... little... obsessed. :)
 
[] Plan Good Coverage
-[] Place Type 2 batteries at 1a, 1d, 2a, 2c, 3c, and 4.

I've penciled this one in. I put the weapons on the ends to cover both the sides and front of the ship. The guns in the 4 slot should cover below fairly well, maybe even getting full fore and aft firing. Hopefully the 1 level guns can cover the top as well.

This leaves 5 positions free if we want to add broadside Type 4 batteries. I was going to put one in 3a, but decided that we could sacrifice some frontal coverage given the main armament. The ability to fire above and below the ship is what I'm aiming for.

To illustrate why I want to make sure we have some wide arc weapons, I've included an image I found. A 40 degree arc is really quite narrow. It gives some flexibility but there is no way for side mount Type 4s to help with a target anywhere except directly beside the ship. The Type 2s can engage targets that are maneuverable enough to stay out of our primary arcs.
I think this is still a bit too heavy on T2s, we're talking 24 turrets here. That should be ~202 MI alone. That's feels insane. We've only spent 80 on primary weapons. I really don't think we need more than half of what you're proposing- even with the T2's resource efficiency 24 of them is 384 power and 144 runtime. Each of your turret batteries is potentially worth 8 photonic torpedo tubes, more once we account for power and runtime.

We don't need 3 times the BD and 3.6 the SD of a Starseeker on each individual flank for that kind of price and we certainly don't want to casually double or triple the final cost just because we could.

[] Plan All Good Things in Moderation
-[] Place Type 2 batteries at 2a, 2c, and 4.
 
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... My God this cruiser will just cause anything that looks at it to cease existing.
Including the rest of the class once the bean counters balk at the price if we're not careful :V.

We were told going from 20 CI to 30 CI might be enough for the funding to dry up if it didn't properly perform. I can't imagine letting MI bloat out of control ends any better for Project Guardian.
 
... My God this cruiser will just cause anything that looks at it to cease existing.
Then there is the cloaking aspect and once we get fleets of these things we be well protected and if we keep the ships hidden will make others go. "They are weak they have no ships thus we can take them- oh god our invasion fleet is gone!" to "They seem peaceful we can make peace with them- oh god they have such a powerful ship defending their solar system we must ask them for protection!"

Both possibilities of course we be using our greatest asset the cloaking device to hide our real numbers. We should figure out how to cloak stations so we can have hidden berths across our territory.
 
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[] Plan All Good Things in Moderation
-[] Place Type 2 batteries at 2a, 2b, and 4.
My big objection to this plan is that the weapons are biased forward. If you switched the 2a or 2b to a 2c I would be more comfortable with it. Not enough to vote for it, but much less stressed if it won.

I'm considering a tweaked plan with a few less gun to the sides but that will have to wait until after I get something else done.
We were told going from 20 CI to 30 CI might be enough for the funding to dry up if it didn't properly perform. I can't imagine letting MI bloat out of control ends any better for Project Guardian.
The fact that we have been given 0 guidance on what kind of budget we should be thinking about is really stressing me out. All we have are our best guesses.
 
The fact that we have been given 0 guidance on what kind of budget we should be thinking about is really stressing me out. All we have are our best guesses.
It does feel really weird to not have any real concept of how much we can feasibly spend. I'm kinda hoping/expecting the idea is we pile on at each phase, and then towards the end of the design process we basically start taking things off the ship to fit inside design requirements, but it would be nice to know something of what we should be doing.

My big objection to this plan is that the weapons are biased forward. If you switched the 2a or 2b to a 2c I would be more comfortable with it. Not enough to vote for it, but much less stressed if it won.

I'm considering a tweaked plan with a few less gun to the sides but that will have to wait until after I get something else done.
Consider it done. It's important to keep in mind that 2c alone is guaranteeing our aft arc has about the SD and BD of an entire Star Seeker. If we're so thoroughly outnumbered and outmatched that we can't keep substantially more than a Torkan BC and a few Torkan gunships out of our aft arc with manuevers- we shouldn't be fighting that kind of battle and should be using the cloak. If we get caught up on perfect, all aspect, overwhelming firepower- then our ships are expensive enough we will probably have to fight those kinds of battles as a matter of course.

I don't mean to be frustrating or dismiss your view point, but this seems like an big change from when you were confident earlier leaving particle lances on to provide converge for existing designs. I've definitely changed my opinions over the course of the weapons and design phases, but I'd like to hear what scenario you think we need that much coverage to prevent. To me, the fact that the Star Seeker could keep her 7 forward torpedo tubes relatively on target against a swarm of Torkan gunships tells me this design won't be a sluggish whale easy to hide in the blind spots of no matter what we do.
 
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... My God this cruiser will just cause anything that looks at it to cease existing.
It's definitely going to be continuing Star Seeker's tradition of being surprisingly potent compared to what the overall "tech level" would imply, that's for sure.

My big objection to this plan is that the weapons are biased forward. If you switched the 2a or 2b to a 2c I would be more comfortable with it. Not enough to vote for it, but much less stressed if it won.

I'm considering a tweaked plan with a few less gun to the sides but that will have to wait until after I get something else done.

The fact that we have been given 0 guidance on what kind of budget we should be thinking about is really stressing me out. All we have are our best guesses.
You haven't gotten budget guidance because the in universe sentiment is that, for the most part, the things are needed enough to have a budget of "However many we can build". Probably once you get a few tranches of them out you might get asked to make something a bit cheaper for bulk, but right now you're very nearly getting a blank check.

IE, "You let Finance worry about the cost, build what we need and we'll figure out budget later."

Edit: granted, Finance will absolutely nitpick, but they also know how to pick their battles.
 
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I do want to keep it sorta cheap if we basically got a blank check, it could hint that more can be built in bulk and I do like the idea of having fleets of ships instead of a couple of super ships filled to the brim with guns and torpedoes and other stuff.
 
IE, "You let Finance worry about the cost, build what we need and we'll figure out budget later."

But we don't even know what we need. All solid info on possible ops we have is on the scavenged birds of preys and warbirds, and for those the Star Seeker was enough.

Gabarghl. So i guess we just build a super warship with all the guns and then look smugly at Finance when they fail to budget for it.
 
Space left empty is still space that can be used for refits (the Star Seeker replaced 1x2 particle guns with 2x2 particle lances after all), and even if we don't have a hard budgetary limit my hope is that we wind up with something we can produce significantly more quickly than a Star Seeker, not slower- and while we're a good 90kt lighter and the secondary hulls help, this is going to require massively more military industry feeding into it even if we're frugal.
 
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@Mechanis where is the Nacelle ring mounted? I'd like to propose a fairly light secbat that can provide some all round coverage, but the aft guns need to be able to shoot behind the big fat ring and I'm not sure how far back they need to be.
 
I do want to keep it sorta cheap if we basically got a blank check, it could hint that more can be built in bulk and I do like the idea of having fleets of ships instead of a couple of super ships filled to the brim with guns and torpedoes and other stuff.
It's mostly in how fast one can spin up the required infrastructure. Senla, your main fleetyard, has a total of twenty five slips suitable for Guardian- five of those will probably be occupied with the second or third tranch of Iron Roads, five more with that year's batch of Gold Roads, some number of them will probably be tied up regular maintenance of existing ships, and then there's however many end up getting occupied by the refit programs.


But we don't even know what we need. All solid info on possible ops we have is on the scavenged birds of preys and warbirds, and for those the Star Seeker was enough.

Gabarghl. So i guess we just build a super warship with all the guns and then look smugly at Finance when they fail to budget for it.
Just to clarify, Star Seeker could absolutely bushwhack small patrols of GS-1 BoPs; the things are tiny comparitively, and she could definitely clobber a BC-1 Warbird over the head from cloak if it's not expecting it, but note that she came within inches of losing to a full-up Warbird in a straight fight, after said Warbird heavily depleted its shields going on a straight-line course through the nebula. Star Seeker as she is can absolutely punch up against technologically superior opponents, between her cloak, size, and substantial torpedo battery, but if she got jumped by, say, Klingons, and had to take them in a straight fight she'd be in serious trouble.
Granted, the already planned refit when she gets back is definitely going to make her quite formidable, even with a minimal investment, but even then, Star Seekers are very expensive to build. So far, the Guardian has been pretty restrained; there's definitely some eye-popping at the costs of the new weapon systems but with the sheer gain in capabilities even the most miserly penny-pinching bean-counter can't really argue against them, much. "Welcome to the new normal" is the sentiment, there, so in a large part, you are currently establishing what a reasonable weapons budget looks like, in the face of the significant price hike.

@Mechanis where is the Nacelle ring mounted? I'd like to propose a fairly light secbat that can provide some all round coverage, but the aft guns need to be able to shoot behind the big fat ring and I'm not sure how far back they need to be.
Ring is currently not super static, and may be shifted forward or back depending on final configuration; rest assured that I will be excercising reasonable consideration in where arrays are placed. That said, currently 1D, 2C and 3C are expected to have the most coverage for the rear aspect, while 1C and 3B have somewhat lesser arc coverage there (because some part of the ship is in the way, generally.)

I am building out the actual model as things get voted for, after all, so the exact dimensions are still rather variable. Though obviously I do have some idea on where things will be going.
 
@Mechanis - The guns on Layer 2 are the topmost weapons right? The fact it was under the 1a level screwed me up previously.

So far, the Guardian has been pretty restrained; there's definitely some eye-popping at the costs of the new weapon systems but with the sheer gain in capabilities even the most miserly penny-pinching bean-counter can't really argue against them, much. "Welcome to the new normal" is the sentiment, there, so in a large part, you are currently establishing what a reasonable weapons budget looks like, in the face of the significant price hike.
I admit knowing this I'd probably have gone for the 5x Type 4b battery instead. Still, good information.
Thank you. I think that will be a much better spread of guns, and also leave 2b open if we end up putting type 4 batteries in the side.
I don't mean to be frustrating or dismiss your view point, but this seems like an big change from when you were confident earlier leaving particle lances on to provide converge for existing designs. I've definitely changed my opinions over the course of the weapons and design phases, but I'd like to hear what scenario you think we need that much coverage to prevent. To me, the fact that the Star Seeker could keep her 7 forward torpedo tubes relatively on target against a swarm of Torkan gunships tells me this design won't be a sluggish whale easy to hide in the blind spots of no matter what we do.
Few factors. First one is that I plain didn't take the time to do the math for the costs of the batteries. Strange for me, I know. I just eyeballed where I wanted guns to go and went with it. "Eh, this is under half the possibilities. Good enough". For the pure looks factor I WANT to fill them all, but then I love the look of a good battleship secondary battery.

The next one has been how I've been flip-flopping on budget concerns. I had some suspicions that we were in blank cheque territory but I wasn't sure. The worries of 'suddenly no money for PD battery' was warring with 'front towards enemy, delete'

When I did the weapons plan for the Iron Road I added the particle guns to help make sure that we had a minimum of blind spots. I hate blind spots. I still feel fine with the possibility of Lances on the sides of the Iron Roads, but I also admit I'd be willing to use Particle Lances instead of Type 2s here if it was necessary. Although realistically it would be pairs of Type 1s instead. And yes, I know there are probably going to be a bunch of Type 1s as well. When I play things like Children of a Dead Earth I do countless test runs of variations of the weapons/system types and locations on my ships. Not being able to sanity test designs leads me to sometimes getting really nervous.

In light of your counter arguments I've toned down the plan to have 1 more location then yours. I've added the 3c to give 2 sets of turrets the ability to fire fore, 2 aft, 2 up, and 2 down. This feels like it should create a sphere of death without being ultra crazy.

[X] Plan Pretty Good Coverage
-[X] Place Type 2 batteries at 2a, 2c, 3c, and 4.
 
[X] Plan Pretty Good Coverage
-[X] Place Type 2 batteries at 2a, 2c, 3c, and 4.

This feels like it leaves room for torps at 1A, 1B, or 3A while having good coverage.
 
[X] Plan Pretty Good Coverage
-[X] Place Type 2 batteries at 2a, 2c, 3c, and 4.

In a fleet of more then one the two can cover each others weaknesses.
 
Keep in mind that these are turrets. They can shoot anything in line of sight.

[X] Plan Budget Coverage.
-[X] Type 2 batteries at 2C, 3C, and 4.

I feel going a bit aft heavy here is fine, the forward arc has plenty of teeth.
 
25 slips that can theoretically build a Guardian is a helluva lot better than I was hoping- I'd still try to be relatively cheap so we can afford to use a lot of those slips, but it definitely addresses some of my worry about this ship only being fielded in numbers marginally larger than the Star Seeker.

@Mechanis, is there any way we could get a rough idea of roughly how much coverage a photonic torpedo launcher effectively has? I know coverage obviously won't work exactly the same way for a guided missile- but I figure it can obviously course correct to some degree. The angle a torpedo can change from it's launcher would have an impact on how viable broadside torpedoes seem.

Few factors. First one is that I plain didn't take the time to do the math for the costs of the batteries. Strange for me, I know. I just eyeballed where I wanted guns to go and went with it. "Eh, this is under half the possibilities. Good enough". For the pure looks factor I WANT to fill them all, but then I love the look of a good battleship secondary battery.
This is why I'm eying the idea of using most of one of the decks for broadside torpedoes. It's cool as hell aesthetically, gives us something we can fill that space with without breaking the bank, and depending on if a torpedo can course correct say- 90-100 degrees it should be able to contribute a fair amount of it's firepower forward or aft. 5-8 tubes on each flank would be a relatively cheap way to use space, get a decent secondary weapon system, and at a minimum should be able to punish anything in our broadsides. Besides, I'd be lying if I said part of me would feel bad to avoid using torpedoes as anything more than a tertiary weapon just because disruptors are currently better- and I suspect we're probably not too far away from better torpedoes.

In light of your counter arguments I've toned down the plan to have 1 more location then yours. I've added the 3c to give 2 sets of turrets the ability to fire fore, 2 aft, 2 up, and 2 down. This feels like it should create a sphere of death without being ultra crazy.
Perfectly reasonable, I'll stick by my plan for now but I don't think there's anything wrong with yours. Just different priorities.

[X] Plan All Good Things in Moderation
-[X] Place Type 2 batteries at 2a, 2c, and 4.
 
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[X] Plan Pretty Good Coverage
-[X] Place Type 2 batteries at 2a, 2c, 3c, and 4.

And now I'm wondering just what other factions have in terms of their vessels. How would a vessel like what we're building for Project Guardian compare against the galactic average?
 
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