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Department of Starship Design (Trek-ish)

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Karugus said:
Now that I think about it, this dev cycle really makes me want to do the Blue Sky for Hyperspace Taps (or to a lesser extent the other exotic power sources) sooner than later. Removing the power stat as an issue allows us to be a lot more aggressive with HC power feeds, and HC power feeds massively benefit from designing weaponry/components around that to begin with. Its not just a quality of life feature that removes a stat from tracking and gates faster FTL, its a key tech for making a lot more powerful components if properly leveraged.

I'd actually be willing to delay plasma weapons for a turn for the benefit of being able to build them with cheap power in mind.
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You've hit on why I've been wanting to get 1 Blue Sky a turn so much as is possible. Just for the sake of discussion I've got two plans with the same RP value as this turn. Both plans take the first step to getting the hyperspace taps. The top one aims to getting towards Replicators, along with some utility. The other goes for plasma weapons and grabs the medical bay as the last relevant thing that was affordable.

I don't think just that 1 tech will let us get that close to getting the advanced power systems to plan around, but what I do think is that if we start now we won't be looking at an unclimbable mountain when we decide we really need things. I'll remind everyone that I'm not saying these plans are a serious suggestion yet. This are just examples of what we could have done this turn if we'd made different decisions.

Fun fact - With just the techs on the list right now it will take another 5.5 turns to unlock every single tech. This does not count anything else that may unlock in the future. Just what we need to clear the list. Obviously we aren't going to be getting everything.

180180
DMHEGSI Theorey (80 RU)80
Pattern Enhancement (55 RU)55
Tractor-Pressor Beam (25 RU)25
MK 3 Transporter Bay (20 RU)20
173180
DMHEGSI Theorey (80 RU)80
MK 2 Medical Bay (10 RU)10
Plasma Acceleration (35 RU)35
Self-Sustaining Containment Fields (48 RU)48

And this is just full speed ahead towards full speed ahead in the vein of my turn 1 plan.
1801800
DMHEGSI Theorey (80 RU)80
Warp 5 Engine (90 RU)90
MK 2 Medical Bay (10 RU)10

For reference this was the D`tan-M`qyr version on my turn 2 plan. You may note that it sacrifices the EFF for 25% extra endurance. It should be obvious why I didn't choose to put it forward.

1741806
"Basic Shielding"36
Mk2 Sci.10
Nadion Compressor21
Nadion Capacitors27
D`tan-M`qyr High Energy Gravetic-Subspace Interaction Theory80
 
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Turn 3: Type Two Shuttles, 1/2
  • Threadmarks
    • All in Type 2
    The decision is made to build two new shuttles from the ground up, and the refit plans for the Type One are shelved. It will probably be some time before the Type One is fully replaced in service, given their current widespread use, but sooner began is sooner completed in this case.
    Shuttles are much less complicated to design than a full sized starship—they have fewer systems, less potential for complex interaction, and so on. There are only two stages here: first, you will select a hull type, then you will add various mission systems. Each such system occupies one or more Equipment Slots, which each different design will possess a set number of; slots are divided into, essentially, "weapons" and "everything else". Note that each design comes with some "default" equipment included, and there may be options to add extra slots in the next stage (especially weapons slots), depending on configuration.
    Type 2a Shuttlecraft:
    Default Equipment: 2x Transporter Pad, 1x Impulse Engine, Warp Drive, Shields
    - [ ] 2a Hull: Coniculiar (5 weapon slots, 6 System slots)
    - [ ] 2a Hull: Ovoid (4 Weapon slots, 7 System Slots)
    - [ ] 2a Hull: Hemicircular (6 weapon slots, 5 System slots)​

    Type 2b Shuttlepod:
    Default Equipment: 1x Transporter Pad, 1x Impulse Engine, Shields
    - [ ] 2b Hull: Coniculiar (3 weapon slots, 5 System slots)
    - [ ] 2b Hull: Ovoid (2 weapon slots, 6 system slots)
    - [ ] 2b Hull: Hemicircular (4 weapon slots, 4 System slots)​
    Please Vote By Plan ​
    One Hour Moratorium ​



    ​
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • Jalinth said:
    You've hit on why I've been wanting to get 1 Blue Sky a turn so much as is possible. Just for the sake of discussion I've got two plans with the same RP value as this turn. Both plans take the first step to getting the hyperspace taps. The top one aims to getting towards Replicators, along with some utility. The other goes for plasma weapons and grabs the medical bay as the last relevant thing that was affordable.

    I don't think just that 1 tech will let us get that close to getting the advanced power systems to plan around, but what I do think is that if we start now we won't be looking at an unclimbable mountain when we decide we really need things. I'll remind everyone that I'm not saying these plans are a serious suggestion yet. This are just examples of what we could have done this turn if we'd made different decisions.

    Fun fact - With just the techs on the list right now it will take another 5.5 turns to unlock every single tech. This does not count anything else that may unlock in the future. Just what we need to clear the list. Obviously we aren't going to be getting everything.

    180180
    DMHEGSI Theorey (80 RU)80
    Pattern Enhancement (55 RU)55
    Tractor-Pressor Beam (25 RU)25
    MK 3 Transporter Bay (20 RU)20
    173180
    DMHEGSI Theorey (80 RU)80
    MK 2 Medical Bay (10 RU)10
    Plasma Acceleration (35 RU)35
    Self-Sustaining Containment Fields (48 RU)48

    And this is just full speed ahead towards full speed ahead in the vein of my turn 1 plan.
    1801800
    DMHEGSI Theorey (80 RU)80
    Warp 5 Engine (90 RU)90
    MK 2 Medical Bay (10 RU)10

    For reference this was the D`tan-M`qyr version on my turn 2 plan. You may note that it sacrifices the EFF for 25% extra endurance. It should be obvious why I didn't choose to put it forward.

    1741806
    "Basic Shielding"36
    Mk2 Sci.10
    Nadion Compressor21
    Nadion Capacitors27
    D`tan-M`qyr High Energy Gravetic-Subspace Interaction Theory80
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    I think we can hold off off on Pattern Enhancement until we're researching Teleporters Mk4 given it explicitly mentions opening up Teleporters Mk5 and other techs iirc. Might as well make sure we're spending those research points when we're in a position to exploit its dividends.
     
    I'm wanting hemicricular shuttles for look as much as anything else, also we can use them as police boats or point defense platforms (they ain't gonna good at offense though, not at this tech level)


    As for the pods let's go ovid to make them great little utility pods.
     
    If we do Hemicircular shuttles I think we can probably fit a single Type 1 and a Photonic Torpedo Launcher. I'm not that interested in using this to attack targets in space but the launcher can also carry probes, and there's something to be said for a covert platform capable of landing a team or performing nuclear demolitions.

    The problem with the Hemicircular shuttle is all 5 of its system slots are taken up by default. It might be better to do a different hull type and sacrifice the Type 1.
     
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    [X]Plan: Mixed Shuttle + Cargopod
    -[X] Type 2a Shuttlecraft: Default Equipment: 2x Transporter Pad, 1x Impulse Engine, Warp Drive, Shields
    --[X] 2a Hull: Coniculiar (5 weapon slots, 6 System slots)
    -[X] Type 2b Shuttlepod: Default Equipment: 1x Transporter Pad, 1x Impulse Engine, Shields
    --[X] 2b Hull: Ovoid (2 weapon slots, 6 system slots)

    This is plan is simple. We go for the same hull form as the previous Type 1 for its replacement. We can pack a bit of everything into it. I like the Type 1s, they seem to do the work. I suspect the Cloak is going to need a utility slot, which is why I am not interested in going for the Hemi shuttle. There is NO WAY I'm going to be willing to try to throw shuttles with our current tech into a fight without a cloak. It would just be murdering the crews.

    The shuttlepod is not something we are going to want to get into a fight, so I'm going for max utility here. It will be able to carry people and cargo. That's really all we need. I suspect they will be handy if we end up needed to do salvage work again.

    Here is a blank sheet if anyone wants it.

    []Plan: Blank sheet
    -[] Type 2a Shuttlecraft: Default Equipment: 2x Transporter Pad, 1x Impulse Engine, Warp Drive, Shields
    --[ ] 2a Hull: Coniculiar (5 weapon slots, 6 System slots)
    --[ ] 2a Hull: Ovoid (4 Weapon slots, 7 System Slots)
    --[ ] 2a Hull: Hemicircular (6 weapon slots, 5 System slots)
    -[] Type 2b Shuttlepod: Default Equipment: 1x Transporter Pad, 1x Impulse Engine, Shields
    --[ ] 2b Hull: Coniculiar (3 weapon slots, 5 System slots)
    --[ ] 2b Hull: Ovoid (2 weapon slots, 6 system slots)
    --[ ] 2b Hull: Hemicircular (4 weapon slots, 4 System slots)

    Karugus said:
    I think we can hold off off on Pattern Enhancement until we're researching Teleporters Mk4 given it explicitly mentions opening up Teleporters Mk5 and other techs iirc. Might as well make sure we're spending those research points when we're in a position to exploit its dividends.
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    The reason I put both of them in the same turn is the potential for benefits from having the better understanding of the tech. Still, that post was for illustrative purposes only. I suspect that the turn 3 event will cause us to re-evaulate things. Not to mention seeing what tech the Quantum Blue sky unlocked this turn.

    EDIT - Approval vote for the other option I think will work.
    [X]Plan: Utility Maximizer
     
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    Roaming_Guardian said:
    Explain?
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    The big shuttle comes with 5 systems as default, Karugas is worried that those will use up system slots for the shuttle.
    Edit
    []Plan: I just like wings okay?

    -[] Type 2a Shuttlecraft: Default Equipment: 2x Transporter Pad, 1x Impulse Engine, Warp Drive, Shields

    --[ ] 2a Hull: Hemicircular (6 weapon slots, 5 System slots)

    -[] Type 2b Shuttlepod: Default Equipment: 1x Transporter Pad, 1x Impulse Engine, Shields

    --[ ] 2b Hull: Ovoid (2 weapon slots, 6 system slots)
     
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    A fair concern.

    In this specific case though, I'd say use the larger vessel for utility, cargo, passenger transport, etc, and the smaller, presumably more agile craft as a potential weapons platform.

    [] Fat Utility, Nimble Escort
    -[] Type 2a Ovoid
    -[] Type 2b Hemicircular
     
    Note that neither shuttle currently has a cloak installed. Given how useful the cloak was on the type 1s, I think it's mandatory on the 2a at least.

    I expect we will need to dedicate at least one slot to that cloak.

    ---

    As to weapons: fighters are aesthetic. Fighters are not functional.

    The naval carrier/fighter combo works on earth because the two operate in different mediums; fighters fly in the air, while carriers sail in the water, allowing fighters range, speed, and maneuverability that is impossible for the carrier.

    In space, any hypothetical fighter would be in the same medium as its carrier: vacuum. A (space) fighter does not gain any cross-medium advantages. There is nothing a small ship can do that a larger ship cannot do better.*

    We should not attempt to build space fighters.

    The only use for a heavily armed shuttlecraft would be to extend force where the main ship cannot go, namely deep into an atmosphere and/or gravity well.

    So, I don't think we need extra weapon slots; we should go Ovoid in both cases for maximum utility slots.

    (My ideal armament a Type 1 beam on the 2b Pod, while the bigger 2a carries both a beam and a single probe/torpedo launcher)


    * Except maybe radiate heat
     
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    I'm of the opinion that if these piddily Little runabouts are shooting at people, something has gone badly wrong. They've got weapons in case they need to fight out of an ambush or something, or ferry troops/supplies to a hot zone or something, but weapons should not be a priority here. At most, extra shields.
     
    TeaMug said:
    So, I don't think we need extra weapon slots;
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    You gave me an idea.

    Mechanis said:
    which each different design will possess a set number of; slots are divided into, essentially, "weapons" and "everything else". Note that each design comes with some "default" equipment included, and there may be options to add extra slots in the next stage
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    Could we use weapon slots for sensor pods or external hardpoint mounts?


    Edit: for the hard point mounts the use case would be for mounting one off technobable solution of the week devices engineering throws together from time to time to save the ship.
     
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    TeaMug said:
    We should not attempt to build space fighters.
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    I agree. The reason I'm going Cone for the larger shuttle is simple. The Type 1 was that. The Type 1 had 3 lasers and particle gun. The 1b would have replaced the lasers with a couple Type 1 Disruptors. This feels like the perfect amount of firepower. MAYBE we fit a torp in there if we can without sacrificing something important, to give them a nice ability to surprise targets. But really a couple of the new beams should do the job nicely for my purposes.

    If you put forward a double ovid plan I'll approval vote it, because I seriously considered that for the main shuttle.

    Roaming_Guardian said:
    [] Fat Utility, Nimble Escort
    -[] Type 2a Ovoid
    -[] Type 2b Hemicircular
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    I can see no way for a Shuttlepod to be able to pack enough weapons to be meaningful. They won't have a warp core, so they are going to have less power. They have less space, so they are less likely to be able to pack a cloak and enough utility to make them useful. The QM has made it pretty clear that small craft combatants at our tech level is a poor choice. It will be better to spend the MI on putting those Type 1 PD beams on the main hull, instead of putting them on a shuttle pod that will blow up the instant another ship looks at it.

    I've quoted the relevant post below.

    Mechanis said:
    Small fighter craft can work, if they're A) considered expendable munitions more than ships, B) your overall tech is better so that they can carry armament that actually threatens a starship, C) you just have "sky-blotting swarm" as your smallest deployment size, or D) some combination thereof.

    Ships are expensive enough in this setting for that kind of economic angle to be a consideration, the main sticky wicket though is that, especially if you're still running Fusion, a bigger ship can just have more power, and highly precise particle beams are very common. Even a serious fighter with all in on that and no secondary functions is going to have trouble if it gets shot by a particle beam that has more energy than three of the fighters put together do in it.

    This being said, Shuttlecraft are sort of analogous to the OTL concept of "Runabouts"; that is, a small ship that can operate on its own for a significant period, and they are usually armed to at least a modest degree.

    Shuttlepods, on the other hand, aren't really designed to operate very far from the ship that's carrying them, so other than maybe a perfunctory beam emitter or two don't have much in the way of weapons.

    If it helps, a Shuttlecraft is sorta like a big chunky military 8×8 truck, with a machine gun and maybe like a recoilless rifle on it, whereas a Shuttlepod is more like a minivan that maybe has a rifle rack for a 10-gauge if you're in a really bad neighborhood.
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    Our culture doesn't support A. Clearly we don't have the tech for B. We lack the industry for C, especially since most of our industry is building the big ships we are good at. Let's keep the minivan a minivan, and the 8x8 truck an 8x8 truck. The shuttle pods are probably going to be really nice for our cargo haulers. We gave them a nice large bay and didn't use all of it. Good, solid, utility pods should help our colonies build up nicely.

    Here is another post from the last time fighters came up.

    Mechanis said:
    As for smallcraft: they're absolutely a thing, they just have the issue of being in a setting where weapons get precise enough that no amount of "speed is armor" will let them evade, and powerful enough that they can't afford to take more than one or two hits.

    Past a certain point, "fighters" end up being more along the lines of USS Benjamin Sisko's MF pimp hand- I mean, the Defiant. The USS Defiant; or Jem'hadar fighters or the B'rel class, just so they have enough shield strength to not evaporate instantly the moment a beam mount gets them in arc.

    After all, if you can hit a target less than one meter in diameter from hundreds of kilometers away, while both you and the thing you're shooting at are zooming around as actually significant fractions of C, hitting a fighter isn't very hard.

    It's essentially the NBSG Basestar problem- the reason why carriers became dominant was because ranges streched out as radar and airplanes became a thing; but if you have an FTL drive that can effectively guarantee that every engagement is going to take place at short (relatively) range, than a big armored facepuncher design makes sense.
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    Jalinth said:
    If you put forward a double ovid plan I'll approval vote it
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    Fair enough. I feel similarly about your plan.
    [X]Plan: Mixed Shuttle + Cargopod

    [X]Plan: Utility Maximizer
    -[X] Type 2a Shuttlecraft: Default Equipment: 2x Transporter Pad, 1x Impulse Engine, Warp Drive, Shields
    --[X] 2a Hull: Ovoid (4 Weapon slots, 7 System Slots)
    -[X] Type 2b Shuttlepod: Default Equipment: 1x Transporter Pad, 1x Impulse Engine, Shields
    --[X] 2b Hull: Ovoid (2 weapon slots, 6 system slots)
     
    [X]Plan: I just like wings okay?
    -[x] Type 2a Shuttlecraft: Default Equipment: 2x Transporter Pad, 1x Impulse Engine, Warp Drive, Shields
    --[x] 2a Hull: Hemicircular (6 weapon slots, 5 System slots)
    -[x] Type 2b Shuttlepod: Default Equipment: 1x Transporter Pad, 1x Impulse Engine, Shields
    --[x] 2b Hull: Ovoid (2 weapon slots, 6 system slots)
     
    The case I could see for armed shuttles would be for hot insertion/extraction missions, where the shuttle might need to fight ground forces, or for boarding an enemy ship that is crippled but not destroyed. In either case the shuttle would be fighting things on roughly the same scale as it, either airborne fightercraft or point defense/AA emplacements.
    This would be a rare situation though. The large shuttle should pack some armaments in case it needs to be used this way, but the shuttle pod us probably better as just an orbit-to-surface cargo skiff.
     
    Razzocnor said:
    The case I could see for armed shuttles would be for hot insertion/extraction missions, where the shuttle might need to fight ground forces, or for boarding an enemy ship that is crippled but not destroyed. In either case the shuttle would be fighting things on roughly the same scale as it, either airborne fightercraft or point defense/AA emplacements.
    This would be a rare situation though. The large shuttle should pack some armaments in case it needs to be used this way, but the shuttle pod us probably better as just an orbit-to-surface cargo skiff.
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    If we had tractor beams I would just have the shuttle pod pack one of those and a single type 1 disruptor so it can do debris cleaning patrols.
     
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