Shards of a Broken Sun [Megaten/Shugo Chara/Exalted]

You are saying that "real Yui" is currently an ill-defined concept, and so we chose bad or "bad" phrasing for this last vote?
That's been my suspicion ever since we got told there would be no dice roll for that stunt.

I have considered that idea that Yui has somehow been "diffused into the whole cognitive domain and that we've been walking through "Yui soup", but Amu didn't feel true consciousness from the fox shadow and now all the fog is gone too.

If the fog was a fully-diffused-Yui rather than just the equivalent of shed skin flakes that happen to smell like her, I think Utau would have picked it up during her singing, instead of making all the fog abruptly disappear.

This makes me more inclined to believe Yui's consciousness hasn't been diffused - or at least, not into more pieces than can be counted on fingers at least, meaning not the fog and the lesser shadows we've seen - just somewhere else.

The default assumption that I think Amu has been operating on is that the Yui who Amu has been seeing was a normal, physical Yui and she just wandered off after losing control of her powers. And until now, they thought that "somewhere" was the cognitive domain spawned at the house. If she's not there, the default assumption would probably be that she just wandered away too far for Utau's song to reach.

That possibility is still on the table, I'm mentioning that now just so people don't think I'm dismissing the "simple explanation".
Doesn't really explain why there are shards of Yui's mind in a random lesser Shadow though?
Furthermore, if that is the case I strongly doubt Projection!Yui would've had a consistent enough sleep schedule for Kana to get to her in time for what sounds like years? (And this sort of panic would likely have played up in Kana's mind and Amu noting it down - which clearly didn't happen?)
We've seen Ami spawn fog before.

I'd imagine that the fog around here was spawned in the same way Ami spawned hers, so contains her emotions. The lesser shadows I'd guess spawned in the same way as the fog. Shed bits of emotion. Came from her mind, but not necessarily anything important, just excess fear.

As for Yui's sleep schedule, I got the impression she just keeps herself from going to sleep until Kana gets there.... and if she was an Astral Projection, would probably come at the cost of mental abrasion from straining it instead of resting when she's supposed to.
 
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"diffused into the whole cognitive domain and that we've been walking through "Yui soup"
I'll tear this place apart. You don't need a crowbar, I felt enough to tell it has a mind. Not a very sturdy one.
I gotta wonder what this mind is made of, considering it's 1) obviously not Yui's or Kana's, or recognisably so, and 2) same difficulty as Utau's completely different approach at resolving the situation without harming Yui, despite being more general? (Utau's solution only worked for the Abandoned Labaratory fight iirc)

Think of one of the labyrinths from Persona 4; it would resemble Naoto's most of all, but Naoto's wasn't a bombed-out wreck leaking shadow material from a dozen holes. It's like a building somebody shot up, teetering on the edge of collapse.
Maybe it has something to do with this?
(And of course, what made the holes to begin with? Kana?
If she could make said holes so many times, why would she not have focused them on the same direction repeatedly to get out, or is her mental state currently fog-impaired?)
 
I gotta wonder what this mind is made of, considering it's 1) obviously not Yui's or Kana's, or recognisably so, and 2) same difficulty as Utau's completely different approach at resolving the situation without harming Yui, despite being more general? (Utau's solution only worked for the Abandoned Labaratory fight iirc)
The description we got of the fog and its consciousness was this:
The fog-tendril of curiosity had made it to her hair now, twining around strands and climbing higher towards her head. Not for a reason, that was just what it did. It wasn't a person. Wasn't even a fragment of a person. She didn't think she could have built it into one, or would have wanted to even if she could. It wasn't dead so much as fragmented, broken and desperate, like an amputated limb with its body missing.
Amu didn't think it felt like a person, more like an "amputated limb".

To me, that seems to indicate that the "fog mind" isn't an actual mind, just something that was "shed off" by Yui. Not trying to say that Yui is a cognitive snake, but you get what I mean. Ami didn't exactly perform self-lobotomy when she summoned her fog, so despite the word "amputated" being used, I'd assume whatever got cast away to make the "fog mind" is not an especially critical part of herself.

Of course, that might not matter if Yui has been leaking so much of herself all over the place that, even if it's something ordinarily easily regrown, she never gets the chance to properly regrow any of it. The fox was no longer attached to the main part of Yui that would have allowed it to grow, I think the fog is likewise also detached from that core part.

The feeling I'm getting is that, rather than being fully diffused, there is a substantial portion of Yui somewhere that contains her "pith", so to speak (the part that allows her to grow). But that portion might be getting a bit threadbare. And exactly what form it might take (Shadow Self, Astral Projection, actual real body) is contentious, along with its actual location.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by quantum lurker on Mar 28, 2024 at 7:03 AM, finished with 120 posts and 4 votes.

  • [X] Defend Kana
    -[X] From... herself? From both herselves?
    -[X] Amu: Whatever this place has done to her, this is still your friend. And with all the time you've spend tangled up in her thoughts, you may be the worlds greatest expert on Nanami Kana. Try to help her come to terms with herself, preferably without a fight. If that fails, at least try to keep them from killing each other.
    [X] Ask Kana what is going on
    -[X] Ask Kana if she can show Amu who "she" is by using her mind powers to link with Amu.
    -[X] Let Amu attempt to visually project images of what Kana conveys for Naoto and Utau to view.
    [X] Defend Kana
    -[X] From... herself? From both herselves?
    -[X] Amu: Whatever this place has done to her, this is still your friend. And with all the time you've spend tangled up in her thoughts, you may be the worlds greatest expert on Nanami Kana. Try to help her come to terms with herself, preferably without a fight. If that fails, at least try to keep them from killing each other.


I can't think of anything else to discuss that might result in actionable stuff (we do need to bite the bullet and move on sometimes).

Though, it was implied that the Defend option spends its time before the pursuer arrives convincing Naoto to help defend the Shadow, and would be less effective if said time is not spent.
Does the alternate question Pistachio came up with also serve this purpose/count as a worthy trade in your eyes?
 
I'm thinking probably not missing a Shadow, as that sort of thing usually leads to becoming a vegetable in Persona (Apathy Syndrome, Mental Shutdown etc). Manticore would have had to have made some huge breakthrough in cognitive psience to find a way to remove her Shadow and still allow the body to keep functioning.
Nominally, we do know of a case where a shadow was killed / beaten and the host didn't accept it.

Mitsuo Kubo's shadow, after the Investigative Team defeated it, dispersed into mist and shadow when rejected for the final time.

Mitsuo continued operating as a... we can call it 'functional' for the value of walking talking and being a horrid piece of work, without his shadow.

Yui is very unlikely to have had the same sequence of events, but it does show that it's possible to no longer have a shadow (specifically after having one form) and still live without shutdown.

If her shadow was destroyed / scattered as a result of experiments (UMI attacks or similar) then it might make sense for her to have lost her sense of reality and now have an open wound there that Kana has been stabilising.

Also if her shadow was taken to be implanted in someone else, that might explain her continued existence.

EDIT: She could also just actually have Apathy Syndrome, but Kana has been holding it off. We saw a lesser-grade effect of such when the Fog starts effecting the real world in Inaba. Kana might be holding the full shutdown off enough to let Yui hold at her current level of degradation.
 
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Yui is very unlikely to have had the same sequence of events, but it does show that it's possible to no longer have a shadow and still live without shutdown.
One thing that did occur to me was, at least in this quest, it is meant to be possible for a human to just never have had a shadow at all too. Since we got told:
You'll probably have expected a 'persona' or 'shadow', but these are not part of the baseline mind-design, and in many cases—young children, especially—do not exist. When they do, they're defensive responses to that person's interactions with the outside world; as such, they're highly personalised. It's possible, though unlikely, for a perfectly ordinary human being to nevertheless never develop a persona or a shadow, even when embedded in modern society. If you raised one on an isolated island it'd be far more probable.
We know that Yui has seemingly been around the Manticore facilities since the age of 5, or at least that's how old these cognitive lookalikes of her that Amu's party have been running into look like.

Which made me wonder- did Yui ever actually end up developing a Shadow Self? A Manticore lab might not exactly be an isolated island, granted, but it is comparatively isolated and combined with her age there is a distinct possibility she doesn't have one.

Of course, as you mentioned, it is also possible the experiments there made her develop one anyway and it came out "wrong" as a result, so to speak.

I'm not sure which one is the nicer scenario to imagine.
 
@Baughn - What does Yui normally call Amu?
"Onee-chan".

One thing that did occur to me was, at least in this quest, it is meant to be possible for a human to just never have had a shadow at all too. Since we got told:
In a way, yes. What's possible is for the shadow to not be a distinct enough part of their mind that there's any purpose to naming and ring-fencing it. If you never interact with other people, then you might never find reason to reject part of yourself. If you're too young to be fully socialized, then you might not yet have done so.

In this case there is no shadow, but the part of your mind that would become a shadow (in other circumstances) still exists. This isn't the same state as having had a shadow, and having it destroyed -- the latter is best described as catastrophic brain damage.

Of course, putting it this way, it should be clear that Ami('s class) might get slightly different results as well. In Ami's case? She does have a shadow. You were talking to her a short while ago.

Ami's shadow is plotting to draw a moustache on Ami while she's sleeping.

= = =

Right now the vote is a tie. As we discussed a few dozen pages ago, in this case I'm going to take the more complicated version of the two votes; i.e, you're going to be putting on a presentation on Kana's inner weaknesses for everyone in the room.
 
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This is the first description we were ever given of Yui, way back in Chapter 1.2:
"We've got one like that, too," Kana said. "She's a bit... not here. Like, her brain's a bit messed up, so she's not very good at controlling it. Sometimes her nightmares come true, and sometimes they don't, and she doesn't always know what's real and what isn't. But she's good. She's the best little sister. I love her lots."

She meant it, too. Amu got glimpses of nightmares—of dark figures stalking the room around what looked like a ten-year-old, a little kid with a face covered by long, messy, brown hair. She was holding a teddy bear, sleeping in a pool of shadow—and Akane was fighting to get past them, and Naomi was there, with a burst of fire, and-

Kana frowned. "Don't look at that. Here-"

-and then it was replaced with the memory of the same young girl, hugging Kana.
Just to clarify....

.....This same young girl hugging Kana is the 10-year old kid with long, messy, brown hair with the teddy bear, sleeping in a pool of shadow that Akane was fighting past dark figures to get to?

This is the one Kana called her best little sister?
 
This is the first description we were ever given of Yui, way back in Chapter 1.2:

Just to clarify....

.....This same young girl hugging Kana is the 10-year old kid with long, messy, brown hair with the teddy bear, sleeping in a pool of shadow that Akane was fighting past dark figures to get to?

This is the one Kana called her best little sister?
Yeah, that's the one. Though Amu has been adjusting her age estimates downwards.

It's not like Kana has any other little sisters.
 
Right. Well then.
8. Yui isn't half-dead, she never existed at all. Yui is an Astral Projection made by Kana, a split personality like Akkun, except almost nothing like her original owner. Possibly created by Kana to cope with her having killed the "real Yui" or a similar-looking victim.
.....This theory just got bumped all the way up my list.

In fact, I'm going to expand on that theory now: Yui is not only an Astral Projection like Akkun, Yui is also her originator's Shadow, just like Akkun.

Yui is Kana's Shadow.

Except, unlike Acchan, Kana never stopped offloading her trauma onto her Shadow. Both "Yui" and "Akane" are fake names, each referring to one of Kana's split personalities.

The stunt last vote didn't fail. It half-worked.

We're about to meet the other half.
 
In Ami's case? She does have a shadow. You were talking to her a short while ago.
We need more Perception/Awareness or to know Ami better IC huh.

i.e, you're going to be putting on a presentation on Kana's inner weaknesses for everyone in the room.
...do we really need to share this with Naoto this way?

.....This theory just got bumped all the way up my list.
Are you drawing comparisons between the part of an update you quoted and the pictures Kana drew that we poked through using RC and the teddy bear?
 
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...do we really need to share this with Naoto this way?
There might not be any need to ask that question anymore, actually.

Since if the response that we're going to receive and subsequently project involves "Kana's inner weaknesses".... that strongly implies the answer we will get from Kana's Shadow is that "she" is, in fact, Kana. Accompanied by a montage of all the unpleasant things about her.

Unless I am misinterpreting the QM's response.
 
Are you drawing comparisons between the part of an update you quoted and the pictures Kana drew that we poked through using RC and the teddy bear?
A few things, including that.

Firstly, yes. Utau positively identified the teddy bear as being Kana's, not Yui's.
"It's Kana's," Utau concluded, giving her a quick smile. "She... loved it, then put it away when..." Utau sighed. "It's connected to the other picture, that's the only reason I'm getting anything at all. It was right afterwards. She didn't feel worthy of it. I'm not getting anything else."
The teddy bear is the hardest piece of evidence to support it, most of the rest are fairly circumstantial.

But to continue- the description of that brown-haired girl from back then blatantly does not match the description of Yui we've gotten in the recent chapters.
A small girl, etched in perfect clarity. A girl no older than five years old, clad in a dirty red dress. Black hair reaching halfway down her back and tangled by neglect.
The girl's long black hair was limp and unkempt;
The impression I was getting was that this is, in fact, Yui's normal appearance. That the one Amu is familiar with has black hair. And yet the one from Kana's memories has brown hair, which is the same color as Kana herself and was older. Now maybe it's just the same hair condition that Ami has and Yui originally had blonde hair that went to brown and then black. Hair color is apparently pretty weak evidence of anything when it comes to this quest.

But the brown haired girl looked 10 and Yui apparently had black hair when she was 5. Amu presumably revised down her age estimate of Yui when she saw what the "actual" Yui looked like, she would have assumed her estimate from the memory Kana shared was wrong.

It might not actually have been wrong. Yui might just not have been wearing the same appearance between those incidents.

Thirdly, Kana's Shadow called Amu "Amu-chan". Akane does not call Amu by honorific:
"Um, happy birthday, Amu," she said, her voice barely above a whisper.
"Amu," Kana whispered. "This is Naomi. Naomi, this is Amu."
On the other hand, Yui apparently does use the "-chan" even if it's "Onee-chan" instead of "Amu-chan". To be fair, this isn't very strong evidence.

Fourth, a meta reason.....
Even with the extra downtime I'm giving you here -- relative to V1 of the quest, which didn't last a single week of story-time, though I'll note right here that there'll be at least a month after this arc before any other major problem happens, and Amu doesn't need to involve herself if she doesn't want to
There's going to be a month of downtime where Amu won't be distracted??? If Yui were still missing by the end of this incident, it's hard to imagine this being the case, since I'd assume Amu would be desperately spending that month trying to find her. It implies to me that we're more likely to get a more decisive conclusion to this, than the hanging thread of a missing Yui.

But the fact is, we're at the "boss fight" now, which makes it feels like we're near the end of the arc. And yet Yui has been conspicuously absent so far, apart from fog and lesser shadows that feel like her but aren't people. There's only so much room left for the real her to make an actual appearance.

Between Yui being an angry and possibly violent incoming pursuer and Yui being Kana's Shadow, I know which one I'd put my money on.

Of course, as mentioned, most of this is circumstantial evidence.

We could be left with the hanging plot thread of a missing Yui. The girl in Kana's memories could really have been Yui, whose hair eventually turned black (or maybe the real one has brown hair and it's just the cognitions that had black hair) and looked older than she was and she could just have been given Kana's teddy bear sometime prior to that event. Honorics aren't much evidence of anything.

It's just a theory that's now near the top of my list at the moment.
 
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And to point out the obvious, her hair could be dyed. Like Amu's is.

Not to gaslight—I'm not claiming it actually is, but hair dye does exist in this quest.
 
And to point out the obvious, her hair could be dyed. Like Amu's is.

Not to gaslight—I'm not claiming it actually is, but hair dye does exist in this quest.
......Is that her dyeing it (or having someone help her dye it) brown while she was being experimented on in the Manticore facility? Or dyeing it black after escaping the Manticore facility to hide from them and then the 5-year-old cognitions having that hair color because they forgot she had brown hair back when she was 5?
 
......Is that her dyeing it (or having someone help her dye it) brown while she was being experimented on in the Manticore facility? Or dyeing it black after escaping the Manticore facility to hide from them and then the 5-year-old cognitions having that hair color because they forgot she had brown hair back when she was 5?
Either would be plausible... for what that's worth. This was more a comment that simple explanations exist, not a statement that the explanation is that simple. With the current vote...

You'll find out.
 
I suppose the question of whether to broadcast the Shadow's answer really comes down to: "How much do we want Naoto to find out about Manticore and the Scavengers?"

There's pros and cons to both.

On one hand, knowing all that will allow Naoto to both assist in mediating with the non-Shadow Kana, as well as further assist against Manticore later. And potentially help find the rest of the Scavengers if they are also missing.

On the other hand, it is spilling her secrets to Naoto and Kana might end up even madder up-front than the Shadow currently says she's going to be.
 
putting on a presentation on Kana's inner weaknesses for everyone in the room.

her secrets to Naoto and Kana might end up even madder up-front than the Shadow currently says she's going to be.
Personally, I couldn't care less about throwing Naoto in Manticore's direction now, if we want to persuade the Scavengers to let Naoto into this business later we can say that
1) We wouldn't have been able to do this properly without Naoto; they also have experience in various forms of Shenanigans
2) Naoto is competent, and has an entire team to support her
3) Has been training and supporting Ami the entire time without our knowledge, nothing bad has happened to Ami in light of this?

However, I do not want to do the inverse of the Persona style and provoke the human instead of the Shadow, as funny as it might be in hindsight. I'd like to modify the vote to filter some information out, but that depends on @Baughn what "inner weaknesses" stands for again?

Let's say it's
1) The equivalent of funny childhood stories or insults (leave as-is, it's merely a normal level of embarassing), or tearing down the pursuer's social mask (shrug, depends on how it's done)
2) The pursuer will react to [thing] badly because [reason] (I want to make sure Amu has the awareness to scrub out the "reason" since it may be private; or even obfuscate "thing" if necessary)
3) The pursuer will react to [thing] well because [reason] (Less strict filtering than point 2, although you may not need to say the reason for this sort of thing as long as it fits within common sense)
4) Elemental Strengths/Weaknesses or Spell Lists (don't care, comes with the territory of preparing for a fight, unless we can hold this information in abeyance until one actually starts?)

The idea is to keep it to Need To Know instead of literally everything that comes up; could we instead transfer the information to Utau via Mind Control/Empathy and then have Utau decide what to share via visual Illusion @PistachioCookies since Utau is 18yo and has a dot of Socialise as well as Illusion if need be?
 
However, I do not want to do the inverse of the Persona style and provoke the human instead of the Shadow, as funny as it might be in hindsight. I'd like to modify the vote to filter some information out, but that depends on @Baughn what "inner weaknesses" stands for again?
You're asking Kana's shadow to show you who she is.

She'll do so. No more, no less. What aspects of Kana did she stuff into a box, and why? If that isn't what this vote is asking for, then the wording is wrong.

Well, technically the vote just asks her to tell you who is following—but shadows are talkative, by default. This might not be a bad thing. But it's a thing you should be aware of, and if you don't intend for Kana to say things that are objectionable to Kana, then- I don't know, don't put them in the same room?

...it isn't actually a terribly achievable goal.
 
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Wait, didn't we ask Shadow!Kana to do this using Mind Control/Telepathy-adjacent skills, or do Shadows want to hear the sound of their voice that badly? :V

What aspects of Kana did she stuff into a box, and why?
Oh dear, how do we filter this into tactically relevant information.. (which includes assisting in talking Kana down if necessary, or not getting blindsided by the fighting)? I want to do only the necessary amount of privacy invasion, if that makes sense; so what question or what output filtering would be best for this?
Edit: Given the comments on Shadows being talkative (well, many people repress via filters all day long so that makes sense) that's probably a lost cause; all we can do is not make it worse for Kana by blasting it around inappropriately?
 
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I think "she" is referring to the pursuer here, unless these two are the same person at the end of the day?

Oh dear, how do we filter this into tactically relevant information.. (which includes assisting in talking Kana down if necessary, or not getting blindsided by the fighting)? I want to do only the necessary amount of privacy invasion, if that makes sense; so what question or what output filtering would be best for this?

"Show me what your pursuer has been doing this while, and why she would be so angry at us being here" maybe? ...need to think on this more, unless Baughn feels like answering me this time to save me the work of thinking :p
I edited in a clarification while you were reading. :p

But, well, yeah. Shadow fights are.. usually between the shadow and the lowercase-p persona. That should be the default assumption.
 
I edited in a clarification while you were reading. :p
I also edited in a followup while you were typing :p
Wait, didn't we ask Shadow!Kana to do this using Mind Control/Telepathy-adjacent skills, or do Shadows want to hear the sound of their voice that badly? :V
I assume "talking" in your post is not limited to literal talking?

That should be the default assumption.
Yes, but not much of this situation is normal, is it? 🤷

I don't know, don't put them in the same room?

...it isn't actually a terribly achievable goal.
Budget Illusion might work for this with the Key along with impromptu acting lessons ("just keep quiet please"), but I got no clue on how to disguise shadow Kana's mind from persona Kana so...
 
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