Shards of a Broken Sun [Megaten/Shugo Chara/Exalted]
- Thread starter Baughn
- Start date
- Crossover
- Location
- Laniakea
What's the main tradeoff between asking her a question, as opposed to going straight to defending her? Are the two mutually exclusive, or is it possible to vote for both?
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
They aren't mutually exclusive. The main tradeoff is, I suppose, Naoto. She's your greatest combat asset—yes, but she's also on the back foot and fundamentally inclined to be defending someone else.
It's a pity her "Senpai" isn't here, or Marie. They'd both be better choices.
Not that Naoto can't think on her feet.
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- Location
- Laniakea
So in essence, if we didn't take the time convincing Naoto to go along with defending Shadow Kana, she'd be thrown for a loop and get into an argument with Amu and Utau when they both start trying to defend the Shadow.
Meaning if we do take the time to ask the Shadow something instead of use it to get Naoto to play along, it has to be one that elicits an answer which would also immediately get Naoto to make the right call.
.....Tall order, when it is questionable what the "right call" really is at the moment.
@Baughn - Is Amu's "telepathy" with Kana currently working?
Meaning if we do take the time to ask the Shadow something instead of use it to get Naoto to play along, it has to be one that elicits an answer which would also immediately get Naoto to make the right call.
.....Tall order, when it is questionable what the "right call" really is at the moment.
@Baughn - Is Amu's "telepathy" with Kana currently working?
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Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
It doesn't seem to be not working, but it's been all of a couple of seconds and she hasn't had a chance to really tune in yet. You can probably assume it works fine.
- Location
- Laniakea
Hmm.
I am concerned that Amu's mental connection to Kana might cause her to become collateral in this impending conflict between Shadow Kana and her pursuer, in more ways than one.
If only one of them has the Mind Control ability and/or the connection to Amu, that party may have the capacity to brainwash Amu into helping them. If both of them have the ability and the connection, Amu is liable to get pulled in 2 opposing directions as both of them struggle to influence her.
In either case, Amu is at risk of feeling the damage being taken by whoever is connected to her (potentially both).
This is something we should probably be aware of sooner, rather than later.
I am in favor of asking the Shadow to try and show Amu who "she" is using telepathy. If the Shadow can't do it, we can assume the pursuer is probably the one with the power and maybe get a warning in advance. If the Shadow can do it, Amu will get a heads-up on what is coming. And Utau might be able to mitigate the damage in the event she gets backlash through her mental connection to the Shadow (or pursuer).
I wonder if it would be possible for Amu to use Illusion to display any images sent to Naoto at the same time.
I am concerned that Amu's mental connection to Kana might cause her to become collateral in this impending conflict between Shadow Kana and her pursuer, in more ways than one.
If only one of them has the Mind Control ability and/or the connection to Amu, that party may have the capacity to brainwash Amu into helping them. If both of them have the ability and the connection, Amu is liable to get pulled in 2 opposing directions as both of them struggle to influence her.
In either case, Amu is at risk of feeling the damage being taken by whoever is connected to her (potentially both).
This is something we should probably be aware of sooner, rather than later.
I am in favor of asking the Shadow to try and show Amu who "she" is using telepathy. If the Shadow can't do it, we can assume the pursuer is probably the one with the power and maybe get a warning in advance. If the Shadow can do it, Amu will get a heads-up on what is coming. And Utau might be able to mitigate the damage in the event she gets backlash through her mental connection to the Shadow (or pursuer).
I wonder if it would be possible for Amu to use Illusion to display any images sent to Naoto at the same time.
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- Location
- Laniakea
Okay, I'm adding this onto my vote.
My rationale behind asking this is the following:
If Amu's mental link to Kana is going to end up being turned against her during the fight, might as well see if we can get some mileage out of it ourselves beforehand.
[X] Ask Kana what is going on
-[X] Ask Kana if she can show Amu who "she" is by using her mind powers to link with Amu.
-[X] Let Amu attempt to visually project images of what Kana conveys for Naoto and Utau to view.
[X] Defend Kana
-[X] From... herself? From both herselves?
-[X] Amu: Whatever this place has done to her, this is still your friend. And with all the time you've spend tangled up in her thoughts, you may be the worlds greatest expert on Nanami Kana. Try to help her come to terms with herself, preferably without a fight. If that fails, at least try to keep them from killing each other.
My rationale behind asking this is the following:
- Kana can likely share more information in less time using telepathy than by answering out loud.
- This informs Naoto that Kana is ordinarily capable of mind manipulation on Amu, which she probably wouldn't easily notice otherwise, due to her own complete immunity to Dark/Light.
- If Kana's Shadow can't do the telepathy, Amu will instantly know it isn't (entirely) the "real" Kana and there must be another part with access to her powers somewhere else.
- If it can't, Naoto should also have enough brains to reach the conclusion that, if Kana ordinarily can do it and yet the Shadow can't, chances are it's going to be the other one retaining access to her psionic powers.
- If the telepathy works, Amu now has a working mental link with the Shadow that she might be able to use to keep it pacified and not immediately go apeshit.
- If it works, Naoto will also be less eager to attack the Shadow - not just because the Shadow has proven helpful, but because Amu is also linked to it/can be made to share senses with it, forcing her to consider the possible risk of accidentally hurting Amu if she attacks recklessly.
If Amu's mental link to Kana is going to end up being turned against her during the fight, might as well see if we can get some mileage out of it ourselves beforehand.
[X] Ask Kana what is going on
-[X] Ask Kana if she can show Amu who "she" is by using her mind powers to link with Amu.
-[X] Let Amu attempt to visually project images of what Kana conveys for Naoto and Utau to view.
[X] Defend Kana
-[X] From... herself? From both herselves?
-[X] Amu: Whatever this place has done to her, this is still your friend. And with all the time you've spend tangled up in her thoughts, you may be the worlds greatest expert on Nanami Kana. Try to help her come to terms with herself, preferably without a fight. If that fails, at least try to keep them from killing each other.
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[X] Ask Kana what is going on
-[X] Ask Kana if she can show Amu who "she" is by using her mind powers to link with Amu.
-[X] Let Amu attempt to visually project images of what Kana conveys for Naoto and Utau to view.
[X] Defend Kana
-[X] From... herself? From both herselves?
-[X] Amu: Whatever this place has done to her, this is still your friend. And with all the time you've spend tangled up in her thoughts, you may be the worlds greatest expert on Nanami Kana. Try to help her come to terms with herself, preferably without a fight. If that fails, at least try to keep them from killing each other.
(Though I wonder what the penalty for a Botch on RC is, or the effect of passing a DC 2 but not 3 in this context of RC?
Simply not making it in time doesn't seem too bad, depending on how things goes we can leave Utau to continue digging, or just interrupt and join the fighting if needed. Do we really need Utau to be paying attention to what Amu may show here, or can we simultrack things?)
-[X] Ask Kana if she can show Amu who "she" is by using her mind powers to link with Amu.
-[X] Let Amu attempt to visually project images of what Kana conveys for Naoto and Utau to view.
[X] Defend Kana
-[X] From... herself? From both herselves?
-[X] Amu: Whatever this place has done to her, this is still your friend. And with all the time you've spend tangled up in her thoughts, you may be the worlds greatest expert on Nanami Kana. Try to help her come to terms with herself, preferably without a fight. If that fails, at least try to keep them from killing each other.
(Though I wonder what the penalty for a Botch on RC is, or the effect of passing a DC 2 but not 3 in this context of RC?
Simply not making it in time doesn't seem too bad, depending on how things goes we can leave Utau to continue digging, or just interrupt and join the fighting if needed. Do we really need Utau to be paying attention to what Amu may show here, or can we simultrack things?)
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- Location
- Laniakea
I would guess a botch, if possible at all, would make Utau get disoriented from the failed attempt (sudden migraine, blinded like with light through night vision goggles, etc) and delay her participation in the ensuing fight. Passing DC2 might give her some information, but also delay her participation into the fight (because it took too long).
Would be hard to convince me that's a good idea.
If Amu's mental link with Kana gets nefariously or even accidentally abused Utau is the only one in a position to try and assist. Imagine Shadow Kana bulking up and her emotions spilling into Amu, driving her into a berserk rage at the same time. That's admittedly one of the worst cases, I think it's more likely it would just incapacitate Amu as she tries to block it out, but that still means her being defenseless while Naoto fights and leaving Naoto to do the whole fight on her own.
Her getting accidentally incapacitated might even be the thing that starts the whole fight between everyone.
Meanwhile, if Utau were to help Amu, there's a chance Amu could recover quickly enough to defuse the situation before everyone goes hard into throwing hands.
If we did Ragged Crossroads, we also would be giving up the opportunity to ask questions and we won't actually know what kind of information Utau will be able to get from it, if any (in the event of failure).
Asking directly apparently guarantees we will get something according to the QM.
Would be hard to convince me that's a good idea.
If Amu's mental link with Kana gets nefariously or even accidentally abused Utau is the only one in a position to try and assist. Imagine Shadow Kana bulking up and her emotions spilling into Amu, driving her into a berserk rage at the same time. That's admittedly one of the worst cases, I think it's more likely it would just incapacitate Amu as she tries to block it out, but that still means her being defenseless while Naoto fights and leaving Naoto to do the whole fight on her own.
Her getting accidentally incapacitated might even be the thing that starts the whole fight between everyone.
Meanwhile, if Utau were to help Amu, there's a chance Amu could recover quickly enough to defuse the situation before everyone goes hard into throwing hands.
If we did Ragged Crossroads, we also would be giving up the opportunity to ask questions and we won't actually know what kind of information Utau will be able to get from it, if any (in the event of failure).
Asking directly apparently guarantees we will get something according to the QM.
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In the context of a potential fight, would asking "what she would do if she gets mad" or "what are her/your abilities" be a good idea, or does that conflict with your intended use-case of the question as outlined above?
Or would "show me who she is (personality/temperament, not just literal identity)" be more useful a question?
(Though having a comms link to either or both parties would make it easier to see where they are coming from, and help the de-escalation through talking, hopefully?
Having a comms link to both at once could also backfire by making the fight of words worse, but that's what Empathy is for, right?)
Or would "show me who she is (personality/temperament, not just literal identity)" be more useful a question?
Given the historic attempts of peacefully resolving these things in Persona, we might need UMI for that, you ok with that?
(Though having a comms link to either or both parties would make it easier to see where they are coming from, and help the de-escalation through talking, hopefully?
Having a comms link to both at once could also backfire by making the fight of words worse, but that's what Empathy is for, right?)
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It's good to examine possibilities, but you fixate too quickly on single possibilities based on very limited, circumstantial evidence. You're also very quick to dismiss the simple explanations - it kind of sounds like you don't even consider the simple explanation to be a real theory.
- Location
- Laniakea
I purposely left the question as a broad "who" so that if Shadow Kana felt personality information was more relevant to convey than just a face (like her pursuer having a penchant for knifing things when upset) it would be left to their discretion to say. And to be wrong about, if there are obvious discrepancies between the description and what Amu later sees with her own eyes.
As for UMI, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it, can't say what would be necessary before knowing what we are up against.
Which could be the case, it is a "default assumption", but let's not pretend there aren't things that stick out - you brought the name thing up yourself, I'm surprised you're not so skeptical about the validity of it yourself.
As for UMI, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it, can't say what would be necessary before knowing what we are up against.
Because in my mind, it's less a theory so much as the default assumption that Naoto is working off in story. She's expecting there to be a "real" Kana confronting her Shadow like in P4.
Which could be the case, it is a "default assumption", but let's not pretend there aren't things that stick out - you brought the name thing up yourself, I'm surprised you're not so skeptical about the validity of it yourself.
I could be wrong, but I'm not sure this Kana is particularly prone to volunteering information, especially given how she isn't clear on what's coming next and thus may not know to say the information she had that we'd want to know in that scenario?
(Adding a second question "anything you'd like to let us know that we can use to try and talk her down, or to have an easier time if a fight comes up?" or something along those lines should work in this regard, tbf)
Yes, but Occam's Razor exists and should be applied from time to time? (This is less applicable here because this is three cosmologies mashed together into one whole, admittedly; and I'm not asking for you to stop posting your theorization either)
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- Location
- Laniakea
Let me say this again - if I were "fixating" or "overcommitting" to my theories, I would be making my votes based on it.
If fixated on my theory that Yui had a transplanted shadow last chapter, I would have gone along with suggestion to burn WP to find Yui and insisted on looking for an alternate transplanted Shadow.
I didn't, that stunt went with the default in-story assumption that there was a "real" Yui there to find.
Which, you may notice, did not turn out to be valid.
If fixated on my theory that Yui had a transplanted shadow last chapter, I would have gone along with suggestion to burn WP to find Yui and insisted on looking for an alternate transplanted Shadow.
I didn't, that stunt went with the default in-story assumption that there was a "real" Yui there to find.
Which, you may notice, did not turn out to be valid.
Mhm, though there is, theoretically, an alternate explanation of "you can't get Yui this way until you deal with the other Shadows in the way first, too much fog lying around"?
(That is, trying again after we resolve this seems worth an try, especially since it didn't consume WP last time)
Or "Yui is out cold and can't respond", or "Yui is in too many pieces for this to work", or a variety of other explanations.
This is an example of what I see as Pistachio overfixating on single possibilities. Pistachio came up with the "Yui isn't here" idea, and now anything that could be interpreted as evidence for that idea does get interpreted as evidence, even when there are other possibilities.
...you know, I wonder if we have enough Mind Control skill with the Key to stabilise things for a short while?
Technically we could also try to sever the connections and/or salvage for parts, but setting aside whether that's IC that just sounds like a bad idea all around.
(Alas, Ami is not around, otherwise we might be able to coach her through stabilising things?)
A better comparison would be depth first search instead of breadth first search, with little negative effect (could be bad if we all get dragged along for the ride, but I don't think that's occuring here) as long as it doesn't make it into the votes?
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- Location
- Laniakea
If you mean "overfixating" in the context of bringing up potential evidence for a particular theory in the OOC discussion, I prefer to think of it as explaining in-depth why I consider that particular theory to be likely. If you find that to be excessive even when it's limited just to discussion and not the votes.... all I can say is, our definitions of "excessive" clearly differ.
I'm certainly not stopping you from also bringing up your own theories, or your own points in favor of them.
I believe a point you brought up before in favor of "default" assumptions being the likely ones comes from something to the effect of the simplest explanations usually being the case in real life, which is something that may be true..... in real life.
On the other hand, when it comes to creative writing, that kind of thing tends to be considered "boring" and "predictable", making it somewhat less-likely to be the case in a work of fiction.
That does not mean I dismiss the possibility entirely. I just don't give it the same weighting you evidently do.
Baughn
Healing-type writer
- Location
- Dublin
I tend to just follow my own logic wherever it takes me, honestly.
Sometimes that's down a highly predictable path. Some things are cliches for good reason. More often, thus far, it's been to something that I feel is obvious... and more or less nobody else.
The takeaway, I suppose, is that there always is logic.
Sometimes that's down a highly predictable path. Some things are cliches for good reason. More often, thus far, it's been to something that I feel is obvious... and more or less nobody else.
The takeaway, I suppose, is that there always is logic.
- Location
- Laniakea
If you want to hear some other theories I've been juggling apart from what I considered the most likely, I'm happy to share a couple:
1. The pursuer is Naomi (or Naomi's Shadow). She is the one person we know for a fact would get pissed by anyone approaching Kana without permission.
2. The pursuer is Yui. Whatever Kana usually needs to watch her for while asleep, she failed to stop. This resulted in Yui going insane and trapping all the Scavengers in personalized cognitive domains that they've been fighting her to escape from. Yui is not pleased at other people trying to jailbreak her prized possessions.
3. The pursuer is a Manticore agent. Kana (along with the other Scavengers) got kidnapped and aren't physically anywhere near the house, which is why Utau had such problems looking for them even with Lightsmithing and Amu couldn't sense Kana. The whole cognitive domain was Yui's attempt to help them escape through a hole leading back to their house, but the attempt got cut off by Manticore agents with Dreamlands access. The Abandoned Lab's corresponding physical location is literally at a Manticore lab in the real world.
4. The pursuer isn't someone else's transplanted Shadow, it's a fully-inhuman cognitive construct that Manticore created as a restraining bolt, the same used to suppress the memories of test subjects from the age of 9.
5. The pursuer isn't a cognitive being at all, it's a full-blown demon- a weak one summoned and implanted to keep Manticore's victims brainwashed. Feeds off the memories of the host, like the Strixes were doing to Saaya. All the Scavengers have one in their head, their amnesia is because of the demons eating their <9-year-old memories.
6. The pursuer is Kana's non-Shadow self and the reason her non-Shadow self is so hostile is because it has been thoroughly brainwashed by Manticore into believing she is called Akane and has been conditioned to constantly, subconsciously beat her own Shadow into submission in order to repress her own memories.
7. The pursuer is Kana's Shadow, again. Kana has 2 Shadows, similar to Ami having Acchan and Akkun, her original got split in half. Possibly the result of botched soul surgery either by Manticore or herself. The meaner one is usually dominant. The non-Shadow Kana isn't here.
8. Yui isn't half-dead, she never existed at all. Yui is an Astral Projection made by Kana, a split personality like Akkun, except almost nothing like her original owner. Possibly created by Kana to cope with her having killed the "real Yui" or a similar-looking victim.
Take your pick. Most of these have some reason or other (usually a meta reason or OOC knowledge from discussion) for being lower down on the likelihood list by, my personal estimation.
1. The pursuer is Naomi (or Naomi's Shadow). She is the one person we know for a fact would get pissed by anyone approaching Kana without permission.
2. The pursuer is Yui. Whatever Kana usually needs to watch her for while asleep, she failed to stop. This resulted in Yui going insane and trapping all the Scavengers in personalized cognitive domains that they've been fighting her to escape from. Yui is not pleased at other people trying to jailbreak her prized possessions.
3. The pursuer is a Manticore agent. Kana (along with the other Scavengers) got kidnapped and aren't physically anywhere near the house, which is why Utau had such problems looking for them even with Lightsmithing and Amu couldn't sense Kana. The whole cognitive domain was Yui's attempt to help them escape through a hole leading back to their house, but the attempt got cut off by Manticore agents with Dreamlands access. The Abandoned Lab's corresponding physical location is literally at a Manticore lab in the real world.
4. The pursuer isn't someone else's transplanted Shadow, it's a fully-inhuman cognitive construct that Manticore created as a restraining bolt, the same used to suppress the memories of test subjects from the age of 9.
5. The pursuer isn't a cognitive being at all, it's a full-blown demon- a weak one summoned and implanted to keep Manticore's victims brainwashed. Feeds off the memories of the host, like the Strixes were doing to Saaya. All the Scavengers have one in their head, their amnesia is because of the demons eating their <9-year-old memories.
6. The pursuer is Kana's non-Shadow self and the reason her non-Shadow self is so hostile is because it has been thoroughly brainwashed by Manticore into believing she is called Akane and has been conditioned to constantly, subconsciously beat her own Shadow into submission in order to repress her own memories.
7. The pursuer is Kana's Shadow, again. Kana has 2 Shadows, similar to Ami having Acchan and Akkun, her original got split in half. Possibly the result of botched soul surgery either by Manticore or herself. The meaner one is usually dominant. The non-Shadow Kana isn't here.
8. Yui isn't half-dead, she never existed at all. Yui is an Astral Projection made by Kana, a split personality like Akkun, except almost nothing like her original owner. Possibly created by Kana to cope with her having killed the "real Yui" or a similar-looking victim.
Take your pick. Most of these have some reason or other (usually a meta reason or OOC knowledge from discussion) for being lower down on the likelihood list by, my personal estimation.
Bringing up evidence isn't the problem. You already see "Yui isn't here" as confirmed. You judge evidence as being much more favorable for your preferred theories than it really is. I think you focus too hard on how evidence fits into your particular theory, with too little consideration for how it fits into other possibilities, or whether the evidence is actually strong.
At least you're not acting on your theories quite as aggressively as, say, that time you thought Saaya had seen rifts before.
There's a limit to how many surprises and how much complexity you can cram into a narrative without making a bloated mess. Most of the time, the right explanation is a simple one in fiction too.
The twists get all the attention in retrospect, but before the twist, people speculate about all kinds of ideas about stuff that turns out to be unimportant and straightforward.
I'd add "the pursuer is someone's cognition of Kana" to the list. Perhaps not using the term "cognition", since Baughn hasn't played Persona 5, but the idea of cognitions sounds like the kind of thing Baughn would think of as obvious. (I think that thing Naoto blasted may have been a cognition.)
Personally I would put this a lot higher on the list: It's on-brand for theme, she had to get her Mind Control dots from somewhere, and if she doesn't remember her own name she can't have her family cause problems eventually right?
- Location
- Laniakea
Hoy, I actually wasn't wrong about Saaya having used her powers before. Someone else did think I was wrong and they actually managed to convince me that my suspicions about it were unfounded.
But as it turns out..... Saaya knew what she did.
She'd knowingly tried to use psionics to break stuff before her standoff with Amu - it just didn't result in reality completely breaking to the point of letting in demons that time. So she did know (or suspected) that she'd contributed to making the rift.
And boy, do I regret letting myself get gaslit into doubting my own initial reading of that.
What I didn't guess was exactly how mentally broken Saaya was, to the extent that the Humpty Lock was needed to keep her mind together. So my initial idea getting her to move her ass and contribute in order to take her mind off blaming herself would, in hindsight, not have been enough to salvage the situation.... but that's only with the benefit of hindsight.
Also, the reason I'm taking Yui not being here as all but confirmed is because the stunt to call the "real Yui" had no chance of working as-is, didn't even trigger a dice roll for it. You don't get much more confirmation than that. Which is partially why my theory about Kana's pursuer being Yui got discarded pretty quickly (among other reasons).
Possibly- there are certainly parallels to Futaba's situation. But the main issue is it doesn't explain why the domain was ripping itself apart, it's a little difficult to conceive of a cognition having enough power to do that.
My impression was that it would take something more powerful, like a full-blown Shadow, to be able to cause that much damage.
Or an artifically-engineered construct designed to be that powerful, like something Manticore might implant in her (which is where that theory came from).
The list wasn't in order of likelihood but yeah, I almost put this on the level of likelihood as the transplant theory.
The reason I bumped it down was for a meta reason - I figured if it was just the real Kana, but brainwashed, it would be way too easy a fix for Amu to deal with when she saw her.
If everything else about her was Kana's normal self, she would probably not attack Amu - and whatever automatic reflixive conditioning she had programmed into her beat up her Shadow would probably be very, very easily undoable with a Heart Beam especially with Amu's mental link to her.
Would the QM really make it that easy?
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That's completely different from breaking Reality before though, unless you want to argue that we have done the same before like Saaya?
Edit: Fixed typo lmao
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- Location
- Laniakea
.....I dunno, it was the exact same skill. "Spatial fabric" may be a step up from "chunk of room", but presumably she went through the exact same process of lashing out. Just because her swing hit the television instead of the vase doesn't change the fact someone was swinging a wrecking ball around on purpose.