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Finding the Spark (Pathfinder 1E Quest)

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DragonParadox said:
Can't answer that without spoilers. It has to do with the metaphysics of the present age in this version of the setting.
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It's a pity. "Why there is not more people with 'level 12' in a stable society in a world with the levelling?" is very interesting worldbuilding question. In ASWAH society was not stable, in AoIaB there were not such power disproportion, but in this quest question rises. Usually authors answer "It's too risky", but this reason seems shallow (why is it so risky? What are the methods to reduce risk?). The only book which I read with comprehended answer is "Delve".

Goldfish said:
I'm happy with my life and comfortable in all the ways that really matter, so I'm not out learning martial arts, multiple languages, and nuclear physics.
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So am I, but in DnD-verse you can prolong lifespan, gain phenomenal cosmic power and receive the chance to explore the multiverse. Of cause not everyone will risk life to do that, but this is a solid motive to self-improvment.
 
Levels are an abstraction for the sake of the players and DMs to make sense of the world; it's not some kind of universal rule. No one in character is aware that they have any kind of levels. Remarkable heroes and villains and mythical creatures have to be represented somehow. They aren't leveling so much as levels help us get the measure of their achievements and capabilities.

The PCs break the trend in that there are people who are seemingly granted powers at an accelerated rate, and though the Doylist explanation is obvious, the Watsonian likely resolves around some metaphysical reasons how there needs to be counter-balance to the world-ending threats... seeing how most PCs are participating in campaigns by DMs who subject the setting to a variety of cataclysms to keep the plot interesting and the players challenged.

Essentially, it works this way because it's a game, but no one on the inside is allowed to recognize it as such.

And the answer to the question of 'why isn't every-other-one a mythical hero' is quite transparent, no? Considering the kind of deeds we get up to as players, Caulker already thinks us crazy.
 
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Nevill said:
Levels are an abstraction for the sake of the players and DMs to make sense of the world; it's not some kind of universal rule. No one in character is aware that they have any kind of levels. Remarkable heroes and villains and mythical creatures have to be represented somehow. They aren't leveling so much as levels help us get the measure of their achievements and capabilities.

The PCs break the trend in that there are people who are seemingly granted powers at an accelerated rate, and though the doylist explanation is obvious, the watsonian likely resolves around some metaphysical reasons how there needs to be counter-balance to the world-ending threats... seeing how most PCs are participating in campaigns by DMs who subject the setting to a variety of cataclysms to keep the plot interesting and the players challenged.

Essentially, it works this way because it's a game, but no one on the inside is allowed to recognize it as such.

And the answer to the question of 'why isn't every-other-one a mythical hero' is quite transparent, no? Considering the kind of deeds we get up to as players, Caulker already thinks us crazy.
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Kori looking at one of Hell's own assassins: I can trick that
Cob looking at one of Hell's own assassins: I can shank that
Gorok looking at one of Hell's own assassins: Those horns look like they would sell good
Mina looking at one of Hell's own assassins: *Runs up to it and screams a spell in its face so it finally dies*

10-12 Seconds have elapsed :V
 
Nevill said:
No one in character is aware that they have any kind of levels.
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This is one more moment I can not understand.
Yes, HP, BAB, saves and other metrics are hard to estimate "in character". But spells known and spells per day are solid, discrete, easy-to-estimate metrics. It should be possible to reverse-engineer level sistem, at least for caster classes. Yes, this task is quite complicated due to big amount of classes and archetypes, but, well, Intelligence is a class ability for mages!

And no, answer is not transparent to me - what stops "every-other-one" with appropriate, risk -appetite personality try to repeate our deeds? Yes, death toll at the lower levels will be significant, but if they are lucky, power surge will be significant. And then "12-level-officials" will try to level-up their heirs, with lesser risks and larger expenses of resources...

So, it indeed remains "there is a metaphysical reason why some people ("PCs") receive XP in accelerated pace." Which leads to a lot of other questions. Well, I hope we'll know it in time - because answer is very interesting to me.
 
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Vote closed
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Mar 26, 2024 at 6:56 AM, finished with 34 posts and 7 votes.
  • [X] Try to bluff your way past
    -[X] "If you want a bribe, take it up with the Pathfinder who hired us."
    [X] Pay the bribe, it can't be that bad and you are going to have to pass by their post many times over
    [X] Try to bluff your way past
    -[X] Show off Sirim's identification. "I am afraid that we are in official duty for the Pathfinders, and that they would not like to be delayed. Would you mind solving this business with them?"
    [X] Sneak past Invisibly
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Arhin said:
But spells known and spells per day are solid, discrete, easy-to-estimate metrics. It should be possible to reverse-engineer level sistem, at least for caster classes. Yes, this task is quite complicated due to big amount of classes and archetypes, but, well, Intelligence is a class ability for mages!
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Spells, too, are an abstraction. We get it in discrete format for our ease of use, but they are, essentially, magic. A mage twists reality just so, and it bends to their will. A umpteenth level mage is one who can bend it to a stronger degree. There are no 'level x' spells, but 'this is too complex for my understanding just yet'. There are no 'spells per level', but 'my mind grows weary; I must rest', or 'I feel like my god finds my prayers bothersome; I must rekindle my connection'. The ones who dedicate their life to the study of magic or make miracles in the name of their deity are capable of greater feats, but they aren't great because they have the feats; rather the other way around, they have the feats because they are great and this is how their greatness is represented.

People don't go to sleep capable of casting two spells per day and wake up capable of casting three because they gone up a level. Instead, you take a look at them and estimate, 'I'd say they are at a power tier where they could be said to be level 3'. The abilities granted to them by rules is how we get to see it in a mechanical fashion. But it'd be weird to say, "this PE student is level 3 because he does 10 pull-ups, as opposed to just 8 he did a week ago." Becoming something better and stronger is a constant process, not a discrete one.

There is no 'level system' to reverse-engineer IC, you just look at a scarred barbarian decorated with bones of his enemies and think, "Damn, he must be a warrior of some reknown!" There are levels and rules to show it on paper, but it's not, on its own, a brilliant deduction. It is obvious at a look.

Arhin said:
And no, answer is not transparent to me - what stops "every-other-one" with appropriate, risk -appetite personality try to repeate our deeds?
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Players are reckless and want to have fun. They are willing to burn a few character sheets for this.
Most of the populace would just go

The few who dare and succeed are the 12th level characters we see. They are not going to 'level up their heirs' because it requires a personal drive and a mindset that is not hereditary. If their progeny is interested in picking up the mantle, then yes, this is how we get stories of people following in the footsteps of their heroic ancestors. They may even get the benefit of wealth and reputation, but no more than that. In game terms, XP is awarded for overcoming a challenge. If you slit the throat of a dying dragon, you don't get the XP. If you don't face adversity yourself, you won't amount to anything.

Also, PCs are always the ones who have PLOT happen around them, with all the corpse piles, XP and loot it provides. It's the nature of the game.
 
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Arc 5 Post 7: Mistaken, Misgudged and Misnamed
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    • Mistaken, Misgudged and Misnamed ​

    21st of Rova 4707 A.R. (Absalom Reckoning)

    Brazening it out you decide to walk half a step in front of the others, hand off your sword as you approach of course, you even wish them a good day. "Hold on a minute," one fellow with gagged blond hair that does a poor job of hiding a pox scarred cheek starts. "What's yer business in Old Town? What's your business in Augustana even? You wouldn't happen to be selling any strange goods?"

    "Been to any strange places even?" the other asks, sporting only wispy lank brown hair under his kettle-like helm, though his scowl doubtless had been the terror of many a timid merchant. "You're gonna need to hand over the preventative plague tax! In case you get someone sick, you never know what your lot can drag in."

    "A new tax you say?" You drag out the worlds, making what would have seemed a foreigner's clumsiness with their tongue into a deliberate choice. "My contact at the society did not speak of this. Finder of Paths he was. yes?"

    The first fellow looks you up and down, trying to weigh your confidence against the presumed weight of your coin purse. A tense moment later he huffs and relents, taking half a step back... just as his companion shouts.

    Akorian Bluff: 1d20+14 = 29 vs Guard Sense Motive: 1d20+7 = 24

    "Petra look! His shadow! That ain't no man, that's a devil that is!" No sooner had the words come out of his mouth that he grabs for the halberd that had been leaning by the guard post, no weapon for quelling riots or bringing in folks quietly this.

    "Nah, he's not one of those prope' devils. I bet he's a devil blood, one of them born from cursed lusts," ragged haired 'Petra' proclaims, trying to sound knowledgeable and unshaken and failing at both. He rounds on Gorok. "You, lizardman! Is this a Chelixian spy?"

    "No," Gorok answers, posture shifting to the balls of his feet, not that you imagine either of the guards realize the implications of the gesture.

    First Guard Wisdom Roll to notice Unnatural Shadow (DC 15): 1d20+2 = 22 (Critical Success)

    Second Guard Will Save to keep his cool (DC 10): 1d20+2 = 7 (Failure)

    "Pardon my ignorance," Mina cuts in hastily. "But is it common in this land for those who bear blades to carry the scales? Is it by blessing of Abadar or writ of rule that you make such swift judgement?"

    "What?" the still nameless guard snaps to look at her like she had just grown another head. "We're not bankers. lass!"

    "Nor are you magistrates," she says, visibly gathering her courage, not to leap but to speak. "And even if you were there is no law in this city that bars travelers by blood or by nation. So then you say that we are spies, we say that we are not. Where then is you affirmative proof? I offer you counsel without charge, but if we are made late then you shall be made to pay!"

    At these words the guard with the halberd looks suddenly less sure and the other one like he had bitten into raw chalk-root.

    Mina Knowledge (Religion) (DC 18): 1d20+11 = 18 (Success)

    Mina Intimidate: 1d20+4 = 21 vs Guard will save: 1d20+2 = 12

    "Be about your business then, but we'll have eyes on you, devil-kin," the other guard blusters.

    You consider contradicting them, then wonder if it is worth the waste of breath. Where there is light to cast a shadow eventually yours will be seen. If common rumor will count you kin to devils what more harm could that be?

    Do you push back on the notion of being a tiefling?

    [] Yes, the folk of Andoran are enemies of the devil binders east of here, a poor reputation that would make

    [] No, let rumors fly as rumors do and get out of here before the guards find their courage again

    [] Write in

    OOC: A bit short but that crit on noticing the shadow really messed you up and I did not want to gloss over this choice. Do keep in mind that if you push and fail they might try to arrest you again. Mina got them to back out for now. Also, I mislabeled the Mina roll as diplomacy, but she could not do that with them so hostile so instead I changed it to intimidate which would have had the same roll.
     
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    • DragonParadox said:
    Kori looking at one of Hell's own assassins: I can trick that
    Cob looking at one of Hell's own assassins: I can shank that
    Gorok looking at one of Hell's own assassins: Those horns look like they would sell good
    Mina looking at one of Hell's own assassins: *Runs up to it and screams a spell in its face so it finally dies*
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    There's an important step missing before the last. Pepper looking at one of Hell's own assassins: Ah, another dog person. :rage:
    Mina's reaction is completely justified; his hounds didn't have muzzles. Most cat owners would do something similar. :whistle:

    [x] No, let rumors fly as rumors do and get out of here before the guards find their courage again

    These are not the people we need to convince of anything.
     
    [x] No, let rumors fly as rumors do and get out of here before the guards find their courage again

    Being mistaken for being Nidalese would be worse.
     
    Ouch, the shadow gets us again. Oh well, it can't be helped. If we had decided to bribe them, they probably would have pushed for something exorbitant after noticing it.

    Still, it's not good to let this sort of rumor persist if we can prevent it. Just got to be careful not to object too strongly or people will take that as confirmation.

    [X] Yes, the folk of Andoran are enemies of the devil binders east of here, a poor reputation that would make
    -[X] "Cursed I may be, but it is not by the blood of fiends. If all goes well, this curse will soon be broken and my shadow can rest."
     
    I wonder...

    Would it be worse if we bluff it as something else that is not devils? Gaining a fearsome reputation is not bad, as long as it doesn't seem we are actively malicious.
     
    Tomcost said:
    I wonder...

    Would it be worse if we bluff it as something else that is not devils? Gaining a fearsome reputation is not bad, as long as it doesn't seem we are actively malicious.
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    I cannot comment on the long term effects but keep in mind the guards do not seem too knowledgeable so best not to try something obscure. Demons should work, everyone heard of the Worldwound.
     
    Tomcost said:
    I wonder...

    Would it be worse if we bluff it as something else that is not devils? Gaining a fearsome reputation is not bad, as long as it doesn't seem we are actively malicious.
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    That's kind of what I'm attempting with my plan. Instead of just saying we are not a Tiefling, Kori is also Bluffing to make it seem like our shadow is a result of a curse we are attempting to have removed.
     
    DragonParadox said:
    I cannot comment on the long term effects but keep in mind the guards do not seem too knowledgeable so best not to try something obscure. Demons should work, everyone heard of the Worldwound.
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    I meant as something vague

    "Do you think devils are the only thing that lurk in the shadows... we have murdered them before. You might want to speak to captain Caulker"
     
    Nevill said:
    There is no 'level system' to reverse-engineer IC
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    I complaetly and totally disagree.
    There is a level system in DnD-verse. There is no such system in, for example, Middle-Earth, it is pointless to ask what level is Gandalf or what is CR of Balrog. But here system exists, it defines cpabilities of our characters, our enemies and our friends. Thus, it can be reverse-engineered to some degree.

    Characters receive a fixed amount of spells per day. Yes, 'my mind grows weary; I must rest', but before mind grows weary, you can cast four spells. Not "2 + 1d3" spells or something like that, but exactly four.
    Yes, both Viserys and Kori went to sleep with two spells per day and woke up with three because they received a level. Their level-ups were marked by very cool and memorable dream-sequences, and it was a sighn that something was happening.
    Yes, magic is magic, and I think that Mina and Kori can sence the same spell differently. But in DnD magic is formalised, and it is the same spell. Those who has ranks in Spellcraft/Knowledge (Arcana) can define what spell is it. Moreover, some classes can learn and teach spells, thus, adventurers can define "Well, I know this already, let's study something else".

    Nevill said:
    The few who dare and succeed are the 12th level characters we see.
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    And I want to know why it's only few of them.
    And benefits of wealth and reputation are very serious matters. Yes, you will not receive XP for sliting the throat of a dying dragon, but you receive XP for magic-missling the devil while he is distracted by the mercenary Fighter with devil bane weapon, whiile you are under Protection from Evil from mercenary Priest, and while all of you have the best magic gear which magic crafter could sell. Yes, it is still risky, yes, it'll give less XP, yes, it requires the proper mindset, but with advanteges of wealth and reputation it'll be much safer than what our party is doing.
     
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    Pathfinder does recognize that circles of magic (that is mechanically spell levels) are a thing. If you meet a wizard and fireball is their best spell you can work out that they can learn haste, but not teleport. Of course there are lists that allow one to pick up spells earlier as well as special features so it's not guaranteed, but it is a good rule of thumb.

    Edit: At the Acadamae in Korvosa one of the ways in which the teachers check if you have the strength of magic to begin learning the second circle of spells is to have the student cast light and measure how long it lasts. It is not by any means guaranteed, the wizard who reaches 3rd level in terns of caster level, but still cannot gork second level spells does exist. In the darker places of the world necromancers feed their prisoners to life-draining undead to quantify just how much punishment the mortal form can take before it finally expires etc...

    In short magic is quantifiable in Golarion, though nowhere near as it is for the players OOC
     
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    As for the vote... it's compleacated matter. That's why I wanted to give a bribe and do not risk explanation; but there is no guarantees that it would help with shadow question.

    ...I guess I would rather risk with our arrest than our diabolic reputation.

    [X] Yes, the folk of Andoran are enemies of the devil binders east of here, a poor reputation that would make
    -[X] "Cursed I may be, but it is not by the blood of fiends. If all goes well, this curse will soon be broken and my shadow can rest."
     
    Arhin said:
    Characters receive a fixed amount of spells per day. Yes, 'my mind grows weary; I must rest', but before mind grows weary, you can cast four spells. Not "2 + 1d3" spells or something like that, but exactly four.
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    You are fixating on game rules and turn them into universal laws... which is not hard to do, since under gaming conventions they are laws by which DMs have to abide. The Internet is full of media pieces poking fun at how silly gaming conventions would look IRL, starting from 'talking is a free action' (which exists so that the party could communicate their plans during their turn) and going into the abyss that is the turn-based system.

    The hard numbers represent the absolute limits to which the characters can push themselves, and those limits have to be consistent if we want to have a game with rules instead of a shouting match. An athlete can always run this fast, and jump that long, and these stats can never go lower unless there is a debuff. Not quite how it works in life, is it? So if we wanted to perceive the gaming world close to the real one, we would have to accept their stats would be fluctuating around a certain value. Incidentally, this too is accounted for OOC by DM's fiat, who could forget a bonus or two, or assign the character a feat or an item under the hood, but I digress.

    A wizard that is not currently in an encounter with us, and is not bound by a rulebook, casts as many spells as the narrative requires them to, so far as it doesn't stretch the credibility too much.

    Whether you want to believe people are patiently waiting for others who rolled higher on Initiative to make their turns is up to you. This isn't much different from any other convention.
    Arhin said:
    Yes, both Viserys and Kori went to sleep with two spells per day and woke up with three because they received a level. There level-up were marked by very cool and memorable dream-sequence, and it was sighn that something was happening.
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    It's a chicken-and-egg problem. The level changes discretely, and the character changes with them. The feats we picked changed the nature of Kori's magic, which he remarked on. This does not happen to most people. The best way to explain it away is to make him have some divine/otherworldly insight/influence.

    Also, the dreaming sequences are a cool mechanic and they (and the Azlant mysteries) are what fuel my interest in the quest. Having them appear rarely at level ups is a good incentive to lure me into making an enemy out of Hell if only to see what's next in that sequence. :whistle:

    Closer to the subject at hand... I am probably with Tomcost in that if we object, we should make ourselves look more threatening instead of less. But it's a fine line to walk with armed men, and I don't find the benefits worth it.
     
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    [x] No, let rumors fly as rumors do and get out of here before the guards find their courage again

    Personally have no strong feelings about it.
     
    One thing you guys might want to consider if you do decide to let the rumor go is how the tiefling community in the city might react. This isn't Cheliax, there aren't a lot of fiend-blooded people in the city, but among the 30K people of Augustana there might still be as many as a dozen, maybe two. The reaction could be anything from embracing Kori as a fellow outcast to being angry that you added your cursed self to their number as far as the rumor mill goes.
     
    DragonParadox said:
    One thing you guys might want to consider if you do decide to let the rumor go is how the tiefling community in the city might react. This isn't Cheliax, there aren't a lot of fiend-blooded people in the city, but among the 30K people of Augustana there might still be as many as a dozen, maybe two. The reaction could be anything from embracing Kori as a fellow outcast to being angry that you added your cursed self to their number as far as the rumor mill goes.
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    Hopefully they won't be interested in making trouble for us. Stirring the pot too much could blow back on them, after all.
     
    Vote closed, looks like we are going to let the rumors stand.
    Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Mar 27, 2024 at 2:07 AM, finished with 17 posts and 6 votes.
    • [x] No, let rumors fly as rumors do and get out of here before the guards find their courage again
      [X] Yes, the folk of Andoran are enemies of the devil binders east of here, a poor reputation that would make
      -[X] "Cursed I may be, but it is not by the blood of fiends. If all goes well, this curse will soon be broken and my shadow can rest."
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