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A Simple Transaction I

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Wolfy said:
We had this conversation already. Accursed's preference is not an indication of his keikaku dori, Accursed has personal interest at stake, overall Accursed + are in favor of Vengeance once you tally 4bear advancements, Haeliel who is his peer vastly prefers Vengeance etc.

None of that has changed. What has changed is that now, Vengeance is just objectively an option that will mitigate Tyrant more and only reason to take Freedom is because, well, you did so earlier and you have a hill to die on.
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This assumes a) that the risk of Hunger becoming the Forebear again and fighting The Accursed again leaving him as or more Cursed than he was before making a deal with Hunger isn't worth worrying over, and b) that the Tactic doesn't change the Favor payout at all, particularly when, thematically, having Hunger both rescind the Curse directly and in changing his nature weaken the Curse's hold in general should buff the Tactic with Freedom. Also, you clearly think otherwise, but I would choose The Accursed's judgement over Haeliel's every time.
 
ilbgar123 said:
This assumes a) that the risk of Hunger becoming the Forebear again and fighting The Accursed again leaving him as or more Cursed than he was before making a deal with Hunger isn't worth worrying over,
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Hunger became Forebear again. That is why we could do this.

I'm going to assume that Hunger, Gisena, Haeliel etc are not fucking dumb so they won't fall to most obvious ploy there is.
and b) that the Tactic doesn't change the Favor payout at all, particularly when, thematically, having Hunger both rescind the Curse directly and in changing his nature weaken the Curse's hold in general should buff the Tactic with Freedom. Also, you clearly think otherwise, but I would choose The Accursed's judgement over Haeliel's every time.
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I will again just refer to number of arguments that were made about this that were never addressed.
 
Wolfy said:
Hunger became Forebear again. That is why we could do this.

I'm going to assume that Hunger, Gisena, Haeliel etc are not fucking dumb so they won't fall to most obvious ploy there is.

I will again just refer to number of arguments that were made about this that were never addressed.
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Gisena's attention is not unlimited, and Haeliel's visits can be interfered with, as we have seen. Mental Contamination is a slippery slope. Can you say for sure that Apocryphal won't engineer circumstances where he'd gain massive MC in return for massive power? Because that seems like a sucker's bet to me. Even ignoring the interest of whoever gave The Accursed the Apocryphal Curse in a rematch, doesn't it sound like something she'd do?
 
Wolfy said:
We know that Hunger increasing in power would increase level of Tyrant mitigation, up to completely mitigated in case of Vengeance succeeding.
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Please reproduce this content. I don't have discord access, so I can't check that way myself.

I know for certain this quality has not been the norm for mitigation. Gisena's contribution to our personal mitigation was produced over multiple separate instances at varying levels of power. Revoking the Doom would be a singular act, and I'm not sure it's reproducible at all.
 
Box Lunch said:
Please reproduce this content. I don't have discord access, so I can't check that way myself.

I know for certain this quality has not been the norm for mitigation. Gisena's contribution to our personal mitigation was produced over multiple separate instances at varying levels of power. Revoking the Doom would be a singular act, and I'm not sure it's reproducible at all.
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R' — Yesterday at 1:37 AM

Realistically, getting to another even half stage of mitigation for the Accursed would require one to be in striking distance of Mid Cursebearer
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Zampano said:
the part where he "receives a portion of power" from the Accursed has not really been carried out to my satisfaction yet.
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If he goes for Freedom, won't he still have a Combat-type power, buffed by whatever the new Accursed Favor gives due to Tactic and so be incredibly likely to survive, and also happen to get his wife back? I don't see what else Hunger could ask for, and considering
formalAI said:
R' — Yesterday at 8:39 PM
Hunger wasn't resurrected by the Forebear's contingencies
R' — Yesterday at 8:39 PM
You already know which beings are responsible for that
Chimerical Tesseract — Yesterday at 8:40 PM
The Hidden Ones
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Flat out ignoring whatever The Hidden Ones want to do with his ressurection would also count as vengeance, if not the bloody screaming type, and instead benefit Accursed at minimal cost to him, while removing completely the possibility of problems due to Forebear v2.0, more powerful edition?
 
In terms of pure vengeance, siccing the Accursed and Co. on Hunger's ultimate enemies is functionally identical to doing the deed himself. Unless one doesn't believe that Ulyssian would have a problem with the Procession of Worlds, which doesn't seem in-character and would probably just be a rehash of the pro-Haeliel/anti-Haeliel talk.

In terms of helping the Cursebearer metaplot, I ... will fully admit, I'm not the guy for this. I don't care to play number games with lives, or liberties, or even philosophical concepts. It all just turns into an abstract slurry after a point, which Hunger has already passed. On the scale I know, it seems wrong to expect anyone to seize power solely so they might have more responsibility. That's a hole with no bottom.
 
votelurker said:
If he goes for Freedom, won't he still have a Combat-type power, buffed by whatever the new Accursed Favor gives due to Tactic and so be incredibly likely to survive, and also happen to get his wife back? I don't see what else Hunger could ask for, and considering
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Hunger did not take on his curses so that he could survive and get his wife back. He took on the curses to enact revenge against the Hidden Ones who sabotaged and betrayed him at the moment of his victory. The character that I have helped to pilot for the last 3 years is no so easily turned aside from his purpose. Backing down from the fight against the Apocryphal Curse is not the ending that I want for Hunger: once the Forebear of Dynasties, now the King that has Arisen.

Making Hunger into Aobaru's fun uncle who goes fishing with his kids is not how I want to end the quest. We already got a chapter about a protagonist who retired into indescribable hedonic Bliss: it was called Another Day in Paradise and the Nameless has retirement pretty much handled. There are only so many ways that Rihaku can write "they lived happily ever after times infinity infinity times" (etc).

I am much more interested in the Epilogue where Hunger has done his uttermost. How does the cosmology change? Does his war on the Decimator's affliction reveal any lore about the territory that the Forebear used to control? What about Haeliel: can the Tactic unlock the "committed" version of our CB Association sponsor? In the last 9 months, there were two chances for the Apocryphal curse to overstep and get regional or global mitigation - not just for Hunger but for all CBs. Imagine what the next nine months (or nine millennia) will look like with the Tactic unlocked.

There are other reasons to vote one way or the other, of course. But my real reason for choosing Vengeance is that I want Hunger to win, and letting Apo-Chan escape does not feel like a victory. Letting Cat manipulate Hunger does not feel like a victory. Even if the Crowning Curse is an actual death sentence, It is better to reach for greatness exceeding our grasp than to settle for adequacy.
 
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Zampano said:
Making Hunger into Aobaru's fun uncle who goes fishing with his kids is not how I want to end the quest. We already got a chapter about a protagonist who retired into indescribable hedonic Bliss: it was called Another Day in Paradise and the Nameless has retirement pretty much handled. There are only so many ways that Rihaku can write "they lived happily ever after times infinity infinity times" (etc).
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Exactly what im thinking.

I know quests are a bit different from normal stories with the goal being "winning the game" so to speak but I also would rather see Vengeance which is why im gonna keep voting for it. (And also because I do believe in what it does by itself)

As I have said before I don't really need a full on happy end, these are kind of commen in finished quests.

(But hey who knows maybe Vengeance will/would actually have much better results then people fear lol)
 
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Zampano said:
Hunger did not take on his curses so that he could survive and get his wife back. He took on the curses to enact revenge against the Hidden Ones who sabotaged and betrayed him at the moment of his victory. The character that I have helped to pilot for the last 3 years is no so easily turned aside from his purpose. Backing down from the fight against the Apocryphal Curse is not the ending that I want for Hunger: once the Forebear of Dynasties, now the King that has Arisen.

Making Hunger into Aobaru's fun uncle who goes fishing with his kids is not how I want to end the quest. We already got a chapter about a protagonist who retired into indescribable hedonic Bliss: it was called Another Day in Paradise and the Nameless has retirement pretty much handled. There are only so many ways that Rihaku can write "they lived happily ever after times infinity infinity times" (etc).

I am much more interested in the Epilogue where Hunger has done his uttermost. How does the cosmology change? Does his war on the Decimator's affliction reveal any lore about the territory that the Forebear used to control? What about Haeliel: can the Tactic unlock the "committed" version of our CB Association sponsor? In the last 9 months, there were two chances for the Apocryphal curse to overstep and get regional or global mitigation - not just for Hunger but for all CBs. Imagine what the next nine months (or nine millennia) will look like with the Tactic unlocked.

There are other reasons to vote one way or the other, of course. But my real reason for choosing Vengeance is that I want Hunger to win, and letting Apo-Chan escape does not feel like a victory. Letting Cat manipulate Hunger does not feel like a victory. Even if the Crowning Curse is an actual death sentence, It is better to reach for greatness exceeding our grasp than to settle for adequacy.
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Well, on that last point, even Haeliel hasn't fully Mitigated Apocryphal. It was implied that she'd have to spend resources she's using for other things on it, but if you will not do something because it violates your principles, that's functionally the same as can't. Plus, it won't do much to The Accursed's Apocryphal, so it's less like Apoc getting away, and more an individual Ork getting away out of the entire WAAGH to go back to the Warboss. I still maintain that Freedom is better suited to giving The Accursed Tyrant Mitigation, which is infinitely better than the Mitigation from shards being Mitigated. and he's probably better suited to Mitigating Apocryphal using resources rerouted from Tyrant anyway.
 
I think it's easily overestimated how fearsome Hunger is to the Apocryphal Curse. He's got a big, flashy backstory. He's got a magic sword and the Praxis. He's got his own personal magic system.

Apo-chan bodies guys like him every day, twice on weekends. She doesn't just power-scale, she plays puppeteer with cosmologies. We've seen what trying to force through her with Progression does; it just makes her angry. And because of Hunger's numerous other Curses, he's not able to shift gears around that. By threatening his kingdom, Hunger must duel. By threatening his hunting grounds, Hunger must accept Mutilation. By waiting for his next Indenture, Hunger must divide his forces.

This is not a fight Hunger, as he actually is, can win. He labors under too many arbitrary restrictions: a house of cards built upon geologic layers of ever-escalating sacrifice. He's going to run out of things to spend to get stronger, faster. The momentum of his Progression is ingrained into his character, but whether his rate of growth remains so all-consuming is questionable.

Of course, that might be acceptable. That's not really a loss, if you look at it as a fight to the bitter end. It'd be cowardice to take the bait and flee, right? But that's the problem. Vengeance is also bait. Worse, it's old bait. It's the jackpot on the other side of a functional eternity in the House of Interesting Times.
 
Except people like Haeliel exist so surviving Apo is generally possible if you are that guy. Or girl.

Hunger's issue in Vengeance is not surviving Apo, but getting to HCB. This was explained to have difficulty of a gauntlet consisting of infinite number of 10+ pick fights. Compared to that, something like surviving Apo until we finish Indenture is piss easy.

If I could I would take on more Curses. Our current Curse load is not something I am especially worried about. Hunger is built different, you could probably load him up with 20+ Curses and bro will keep on trucking.
 
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Wolfy said:
Except people like Haeliel exist so surviving Apo is generally possible if you are that guy. Or girl.

Hunger's issue in Vengeance is not surviving Apo, but getting to HCB. This was explained to have difficulty of a gauntlet consisting of infinite number of 10+ pick fights. Compared to that, something like surviving Apo until we finish Indenture is piss easy.

If I could I would take on more Curses. Our current Curse load is not something I am especially worried about. Hunger is built different, you could probably load him up with 20+ Curses and bro will keep on trucking.
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Apoc is his main issue in getting to HCB, while simultaneously being the thing most likely to force him to achieve such heights. There's a reason most Progression Cursebearers eat shit and die to Apoc.
 
You know how Apo Chan has to suffer mitigations when she does truly unreasonable things? Well, with Freedom Apo Chan would be truly exerting herself to overpower the Hidden Ones. Think about how much mitigation that represents to the Accursed - That's an action on par with one of Haeliel's wishes!

Not that I think we're actually voting for options based on mitigation or vague relevance to the Accursed anyway. Let's be real, those are window dressing to what we want to see Hunger do. Vengeance is far more true to our voting habits; If Rihaku assured us of writing human comprehensible hypercosmic fights as opposed to actual dice rolling, ones where Hunger is bloodied horribly yet emerges victorious still at the end, we would surely see a lot more Vengeance voters. Simultaneously if Rihaku were to say that we're gonna roll for realsies either on SV or on another dice rolling website and that after he would absolutely write Hunger's epilogue based on the result - Well we would probably have a lot more Freedom voters.
 
I would switch to Vengeance in a heartbeat if I thought there was even a 25% chance he'd actually get his revenge, separate from the apparently now maxed at 1% chance he'll live to reach High Cursebearer. I'm sticking to Freedom because there has been no indication whatsoever that he can succeed but die in the process, and I don't really consider a 1% chance of getting anything out of his life's work worth devoting himself to.
 
Necromancy seems pretty underpowered, honestly. There's just not a lot you can do with it except as a metamagic, which it's not awful for but seems pretty underwhelming compared to 'Epic Sorceror in a year, with teleportation and plane shifts banned (though psuedo-summoning isn't).
Aabcehmu said:
[ ] The Weave
[ ] Shadow Blend
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Both of these offer some pretty concerning possibilities, but I basically trust y'all and anyway, Wyrmlings can set off a Wightpocalypse in a month and have Wishes within a year. Dunno about time travel, Teleport Through Time is probably banned as a teleport effect but custom magic is custom magic.
Anyway, I thought this was the obvious metamagic synergy because I can control my own mindspace and devise noospheric rituals. It's probably the fastest way to copy myself, magic and all, and maybe inhabiting my own selftree's dreamboat will let me share its protection?
The obvious synergy, though, was ritual casting, to map and shape and dredge the Shadow Realm. If it's the path the other powers came by, then other magics can probably be manifested from it. I particularly want access to Shapeshifting, or a similar sort of Knowledge-level power.
@Orm Embar, I probably find you within the first couple weeks. Is our meeting amicable?
Shard said:
Competition would drive Earthbound users to kill each other, because cooperation isn't built into the Earthbound magic system. You want maximum territory for maximum power and safety, especially with magic users running around potentially killing everyone. Or other people with similar ambitions. If it was possible for multiple Earthbound users to cooperate to create joint territories or something then cooperation might be possible, but as it is the system will trend towards a single ruler.
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Metamagic solves that, though, as does the ability to rule the Shadow Realm. Pretty sure.
Shard said:
By the way, as it has not been mentioned,

Addio and Orm on Discord have figured out The Tactic:

Revoke The Tyrant's Doom

That's it.
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So what did @Addio say on Discord? I thought Orm's in-thread post was pretty clearly a tactic, and a good tactic, for how to revoke the Doom, so I'm very surprised that the real tactic is 'just revoke the Doom'.
Wolfy said:
Except people like Haeliel exist so surviving Apo is generally possible if you are that guy. Or girl.
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Hunger is not that guy. If people had voted for full-docket Maiden with me - which if I recall correctly you did not - he would be that guy. But he isn't, and barring a rematch with Full Power Maiden, which seems unlikely but not necessarily out of the question if someone buys a Rewind, he is about one one-hundredth of that guy, and nothing more.
 
HoratioVonBecker said:
Hunger is not that guy. If people had voted for full-docket Maiden with me - which if I recall correctly you did not - he would be that guy. But he isn't, and barring a rematch with Full Power Maiden, which seems unlikely but not necessarily out of the question if someone buys a Rewind, he is about one one-hundredth of that guy, and nothing more.
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Hmm... I wasn't around back then, but in hindsight, with the Tactic revealed (and I think possible back then), the correct choice might have been the hardest fight, then revoking the Tyrant's doom and applying our own portion of the mitigation in an offer to the Maiden to make her our trusted advisor as part of the mitigation, allowing a diplomatic victory where she stops the Tyrant but we still get what we want...

Regardless of if that would work, I am curious what our odds were improved to if we somehow beat the full power end boss? Is Hunger automatically the guy, did the dice roll rise to 10%, etc.
 
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Lealope said:
[X] Freedom

Painful as it is, correct decisions are correct decisions. And that aside, Hunger deserves to be happy.
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I am shocked and horrified by this sudden yet inevitable betrayal. Your resolve has weakened and you can no longer do what must be done. The man who always does his uttermost, tapping out at the most critical moment.

The odds do not matter. The price is irrelevant. Hunger is the only one who can achieve this victory, so he must fight to pursue it. Anything less is a betrayal of his very nature. Press ever onwards to a better tomorrow.
 
At the start of the quest, we made a promise. Somewhat later, we were told that one of the few things that can bind Tyranny is our own values, and among our values has consistently been the weight of Hunger's promises. As far as I can recall, Hunger has been scrupulous about keeping to his word. A Hunger that goes back on his promise here (whatever sophistry is offered to claim that this doesn't count) is a Hunger who is willing to break that word in pursuit of his ultimate ambitions.

That's fair, but it's also not the Hunger I'd like to see.
 
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As they say, death is lighter than feather, but duty is heavier than a mountain. Sometimes, it is the soldier's duty to put down his sword, no matter how much it feels like an extension of his arm, of his self, even when it truly is such as is the case with Hunger.

Forsake the Doom of the Tyrant. Accept the Accursed's counsel. Trust him when he says it is okay to stop, and that he has a plan.
 
Lealope said:
At the start of the quest, we made a promise. Somewhat later, we were told that one of the few things that can bind Tyranny is our own values, and among our values has consistently been the weight of Hunger's promises. As far as I can recall, Hunger has been scrupulous about keeping to his words. A Hunger that goes back on his promise here (whatever sophistry is offered to claim that this doesn't count) is a Hunger who is willing to break that word in pursuit of his ultimate ambitions.

That's fair, but it's also not the Hunger I'd like to see.
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Hunger promised to repay his debt. It depends on what you see as hunger repaying that debt. In the Hunger I've crafted in my own reading, I do not see a man who is satisfied with anything less than his absolute effort. Hunger did not promise to heed the Accursed whims to their absolute conclusion, he promised that he would repay him for the second chance he was offered. He can rest now, refuse the danger and uncertainty of a path fraught with dangers, and lessen his patrons burden by a fraction of what he himself caused eons ago. Or he can do his uttermost to see him unshackled completely.

To me, hungers commitment to his duty and his ideal to follow his word is actually pivotal in why I want vengeance to win. It is his duty to repay his debt, and to repay it in full he will turn down a life of assured happiness. He will continue to fight and risk himself for even a tiny chance that he can do more. To do anything less than this, to me, is a betrayal of something so pivotal and engaging about hungers character.

There is something so charming about a character who is committed to facing challenges head on, and winning through sheer stubborn force of will to succeed no matter the cost. To cut through even that which cannot be cut. It matters not the odds, only that it must be done. It cheapens that extremely, if at the most climactic challenge he finally falters.
 
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