Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

This is a really dumb time and place to pick a fight.

Broken Seeker is an old monster famous for betrayal that knows he pissed us off. Moreover, his misread of Molly's social cues has left him convinced she has a literal fetish for backstabbing.

There is no way he spent months playing games on his hunt for Dresden and then put himself in a tube with us far away from anyone he knows we care about without a plan of some kind. Even one as simple as his 13 minions set up to eat an orphanage if he doesn't make it home before dinner.

We're also still surrounded by enemies, and elder vamps should never be discounted. Immediately turning to infighting at the earliest technical opportunity is a cartoon villain level tactical and strategic failure.

And yes, the rep stuff is still in play. It's unjust, unfair, and stupid, but the supernatural world doesn't care about our opinions on fairness.Yet.

This shouldn't be a surprise, it works the same way with regular old humans. Go to a bank you owe money with a laundry list of understandable, but not legally relevant, reasons why you're late on your payments and see what it gets you.

Raging against the machine by shooting yourself in the foot spites no one but you.

We can kill this guy later.

[X] Shout at him that you are supposed to split the loot, he'll probably get a kick out of that (Charisma+Empathy Base DC 6)

[X] A deal's a deal, even with a monster, let him eat
 
We're going to have to kill BS at some point, I'm sure, but now isn't the time or the place. We've burned Essence and WP like it's going out of style, we're surrounded by enemies, and we're deep in enemy territory, not to mention the various mortals on the plane that must be considered.

Meanwhile, BS expects treachery. He cannot help but anticipate betrayal, his own and that of others. Here and now, you better believe he has some sort of contingency prepared to aid in his escape, if nothing else. It's one thing to take the shit and succeed, but to take it and miss...

[X] Shout at him that you are supposed to split the loot, he'll probably get a kick out of that (Charisma+Empathy Base DC 6)

[X] A deal's a deal, even with a monster, let him eat
 
Nobody gives a shit in the setting if you think you are under duress or not when you make a deal. Dont make deals you dont intend to keep. Even IRL when the US bargains for hostages prisoners being held by countries it doesnt like, its word matters. It doesnt just get prisoners released and then renege on any agreement.
Our deal was to help him kill the vamp we have upheld both the letter and the spirit of the agreement. We helped him get to and fight her fulfilling the letter of the agreement, and we upheld the spirit by not tipping her off to BS coming for her so she could prepare defenses for him, or any one of a dozen other thing we could have done to basically set BS up for certain death.

Our deal is over Molly has delivered in full her promise, something BS has failed to do. What comes after has nothing to do with our deal.
 
A single instance of killing or attacking a betrayer will hardly "ruin our reputation" as you keep saying. That doesn't make any sense at all.

Again you still haven't provided specific in text evidence of postcognition so accurate that people would be so willing and able to find the details of oue deal or the fact that we even had one to with BS. Or explanation on why the White Council has so many spies if its that much of an issue and even Rashid -A MEMEBER OF THE WC HIMESELF- has it.
Beg to differ. You cannot get a little pregnant. You cant do a little betrayal.


Proven Guilty. When Molly was sentenced to death, and Rashid simply stalled until Michael arrived with three other members of the Senior Council(McCoy, Listens to Wing and Martha Liberty) who he had rescued from Outsider attack. And he acts like he knew it was coming. I've posted it before, but here it is again:
I promised Charity.
I took my staff in both hands and stepped forward, putting myself between Morgan and the girl. "Morgan," I said. "Stars and stones, man. Please don't do this. She's a child. We should be helping her."
My words slowed him, and he froze in place for a terrible heartbeat. Then he closed his eyes and swallowed, his face twisting with nausea. He opened his eyes again and whispered, "Stand aside, Dresden. Please."
I looked wildly around the room for someone, anyone to help, for some way to stop this madness. I felt a sudden pressure against my spine, and I looked over my shoulder.
My eyes fell on the Gatekeeper.
I whirled back to Morgan and lifted my hands. "Point of order!" I cried. "Point of order! The Senior Council has not yet made its decision."
Morgan paused, head tilting, and frowned at me. He lowered the sword and glanced back at the Merlin.
"The Senior Council has decided the issue," the Merlin snarled.
"No," I said. "The Senior Council must decide any capital crime in an open vote." I pointed my finger at the Gatekeeper. "He has not cast his vote."
The Merlin spoke through clenched teeth. "I hold six of seven votes. However the honored Gatekeeper decides, it will not change the outcome."
"True," I said. "But that doesn't change the fact that he gets a damned vote."
"Why are you doing this?" the Merlin demanded. "It is over. You only torment the prisoner with this unnecessary charade."
"He gets a vote," I repeated, and folded my arms on my chest.
The Merlin stared at me hard, and I could actually sense the pressure of his rage, like the end of a baseball bat poking steadily at my chest.
Morgan said, very, very quietly, "He's right, honored Merlin."
The Merlin narrowed his eyes. Then he turned his head to the Gatekeeper. "As you wish. We shall play this farce to its conclusion. Gatekeeper, how find you in this matter?"
And the Gatekeeper said… nothing.
He just stood there, face almost invisible beneath his cowl.
"Gatekeeper!" the Merlin called. "How find you?"
"I find the need for deliberation," the Gatekeeper responded. "I beg the Council's indulgence while I ponder this matter."
"Ridiculous," the Merlin said.

The Gatekeeper tilted his head. "Death is rather final, honored Merlin. I must consider carefully before I consign a soul, any soul, no matter how guilty, to that end."
"This is nonsense. It will make no difference how you vote."
"True," the Gatekeeper replied, very gently, the faintest shade of rebuke in his voice. "But that does not change my moral obligation to make this decision with care."
The Merlin took a deep breath and then said, forced calm in his voice, "I suppose a few moments for thought are not unreasonable."
"Thank you," the Gatekeeper said gravely.
Five minutes went by like five thousand years. Molly sagged against me, so frightened she could barely stand.
"Enough," the Merlin said, finally. "This travesty needs to end."
"On that point," the Gatekeeper said, "we agree." And then he stepped forward to the circle marked on the floor, and smudged it with his boot, breaking the circle. He flicked a gloved hand, and the lock on the chained door sprang open and fell away, followed closely by the chains.
"What is the meaning of this?" the Merlin demanded.
The Gatekeeper ignored him and pushed open the door. One of the Wardens on guard outside stood in front of it, one hand raised as if to knock. He blinked at the Gatekeeper, and then looked over his shoulder and said, "It's open, sir."
"Get clear of the door, fool," barked Ebenezar's voice. "Get them inside. Hurry, man! They're right behind us!"

Outside there was an eerie howl and a sudden detonation of thunder that shook the concrete floor. Young people in roomy brown robes began to hurry through the doorway, most of them around Molly's age or a bit younger. They were led by a young woman with short, curly hair and cheeks that had a dimple even when she wasn't smiling-Luccio, the commander of the Wardens, in the young body a necromancer had trapped her in. The kids must have been her trainees.
She was followed by more children and a tall, brawny woman with dark skin and short, iron grey hair, helping a lanky young man with a wounded leg. Martha Liberty helped the young man settle to the ground and barked out a command for a medical kit. An old man with braided hair and Native American features brought up the rear, shepherding the last few young wizards ahead of him. "Injun Joe" Listens-to-Wind made sure they were all inside, and then turned and shouted, "I'm closing the way now!"
There were several more howls, and a bell-like chime of steel. Something hit the wall of the warehouse hard enough to shake dust from the rafters. Then there was a rushing sound of wind that abruptly ended in heavy silence. Listens-to-Wind sagged and leaned against the doorway, panting. Then he rose and stood aside as Ebenezar McCoy came in.
My old mentor was wearing his usual overalls and T-shirt. His bald pate shone with sweat, and he looked tired, but he was smiling over the pugnacious set of his lower jaw. The air around him fairly crackled with intensity, a mantle of power that hung around him in a subtle haze. Ebenezar reached behind him to hold the door open.
Michael came in.
He wore his white cloak, his mail and breastplate, and he bore Amoracchius in his hands, stained with dark fluids. He glanced around the room, a smile firm on his face.
"Papa!" Molly shrieked, and threw herself at him.
Michael blinked and managed to get the sword out of the way before Molly hit him with a hug that nearly knocked him from his feet. He got an arm around her, smiling. "Ooof! Careful, girl, the old man needs his ribs right where they are."
"Who the hell is this?" Ramirez demanded, frowning at Michael. He looked like he didn't know whether to be upset or disturbed that an armed and armored stranger had just waltzed in and was now standing inside all of his security measures.
"He's a bloody hero is what he is," Ebenezar told him. "If he hadn't come along when he did, not a one of us would have gotten out of there alive." He offered Michael his hand. "I've only heard of you by reputation, Sir Knight. But I've got to say that I'm damned glad to meet you. Thank you."
Michael grinned and juggled his sword and his daughter so he'd have a hand free to shake Ebenezar's. "I'm only a servant," he said. "Any thanks are rightly owed to Him, not to me."
"Aye," Ebenezar said. "And thank God you came, Sir Knight."
"Secure the building," said the Merlin in a quiet voice. He walked forward to see what was happening, and stopped beside me. Michael nodded and moved out, tapping Ramirez and another Warden, and the three of them went to make sure the bad guys weren't still coming.
"Vote isn't over," I said in a very quiet voice. "Which means that the three of them will need to cast their votes as well."
"Obviously," the Merlin said in a neutral murmur.
"That's Michael. Knight of the Cross."
"Which Sword?" the Merlin asked idly.
"Amoracchius," I said.
The Merlin lifted a brow and nodded, never looking at me.
"Looks like he just saved… about forty of our young people?"
"So it would seem," the Merlin said.
"Seems like the least we can do is save one of his."
The Merlin's eyes narrowed, and he did not speak.
"Look at it this way," I said quietly. "There's no downside to this for you. If you're wrong about Molly, the Council gets another wizard. Fairly talented one, too."
"And if I'm right?" he asked quietly.
"If you're right," I said, "you still get to kill the girl."
The Merlin glanced at me. "True," he said. "And you with her."


Rashid is the Gatekeeper.
There are strong hints that he uses time manipulation, and there's stuff he cannot act on outside of particular triggers without risking either the Laws or the timeline. We just dont know how it works yet.

Dont assume that because he knows something, he can talk about it.
In this very AU in the Merlin Interlude, he apparently knew it was Molly who opened the Gate in Chicago, told the Merlin it would be good news, but didnt - couldnt - say more.
 
Our deal was to help him kill the vamp we have upheld both the letter and the spirit of the agreement. We helped him get to and fight her fulfilling the letter of the agreement, and we upheld the spirit by not tipping her off to BS coming for her so she could prepare defenses for him, or any one of a dozen other thing we could have done to basically set BS up for death.

Our deal is over Molly has delivered in full her promise, something BS has failed to do. What comes after has nothing to do with our deal.
This has as much validity as robbing a man thirty seconds after paying him for work done and claiming that you have upheld the letter and spirit of your contract.
 
[X] A deal's a deal, even with a monster, let him eat

[X] Shout at him that you are supposed to split the loot, he'll probably get a kick out of that (Charisma+Empathy Base DC 6)
-[X] Leave the head, would you? I might need a new mantlepiece

I don't think that here and now is the proper time and place to fight him.
When we do eventually take him down, I hope for us to lock him away in our hell. I want to turn him into a long-term project on changing the nature of dark and evil immortal beings. Make like Merlin and Demonreach, but with an exalted boost.
 
This has as much validity as robbing a man thirty seconds after paying him for work done and claiming that you have upheld the letter and spirit of your contract.
And deals made under duress have never been legally binding anywhere. We have delivered in full our promise. We have zero standing reason to let him live at all. If he was smarter he would have specified living thou the encounter but he did not. We are enemies, and he foolishly put himself in slicing range, we would be a fool not to kill him here and now.
 
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Even one as simple as his 13 minions set up to eat an orphanage if he doesn't make it home before dinner.
There is literally nothing we can do about that sort of tactic anyway. Nothing at all. He could just lie about it even. How are we to even take that into account?
We can kill this guy later.
To be clear, I don't think we should kill him right now either. We can set a trap with all kinds of nonsense in our Hell, then try to convince him to show up so we can kill or imprison him after preptime.

Whats bothering me is all this talk of postcognition not making any sense. If its so widespread and applicable then why the hell does the WC have such a huge spy problem? They know they have spys too so why isn't Rashid or someone else using this bullshit postcog to do something about it?
Dont assume that because he knows something, he can talk about it.
WHAT??? So he isn't even willing or able to use it to speak up and keep spys out of his own organization but yet he can still leverage it to cause problems for us?

What The Fuck????
 
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[X] You are still pretty fresh, screw deals, you could kill more than one old monster today

We've already kept our deal in full. Anybody worth a shit (the Fae Courts) ain't gonna care if we stab him now, or will actively applaud us (literally all the other human factions; White Council, Knights of the Cross, minor practitioners, etc) for slaughtering a monster.

You'd note that even though the Fae have a way worse reputation than even this will make Molly's, people still make deals with them. Powerful factions like the White Council and idiots like young Dresden alike, because they have power.

Molly has power. Power enough even if she was worse than the Fae, people would still bargain with her, not because they're stupid or desperate but because power is enough.

And this won't make Molly worse than the Fae, and this likely won't even get out. Most likely story to come from this is whatever Molly wants known, 'cause even if the naagloshii survives and books it absolutely nobody's gonna trust its truth over Molly's lies.
 
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[X] A deal's a deal, even with a monster, let him eat

[X] Shout at him that you are supposed to split the loot, he'll probably get a kick out of that (Charisma+Empathy Base DC 6)
-[X] Leave the head, would you? I might need a new mantlepiece
 
[x] You are still pretty fresh, screw deals, you could kill more than one old monster today

There are arguments against this, but I have a hard time thinking of when we are going to have a better opportunity. You can say we will be stronger in the future, but if we let Broken Seeker eat god blood so will he.
I agree but then if we go for the kill now isn't he likely to escape? In that case isn't it better to set a trap in Hell then convince him to go there so we can better guarentee no escape and possibly even capture him for experiments?
We drank the speed potion right now we are certainly faster and hellscry Charka means we will always know his location and ATB means we see though stealth.
 
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And deals made under duress have never been legally binding anywhere. We have delivered in full our promise,. We have standing deal to let him live at all. If he was smarter he would have specified living thou the encounter but he did not.
This is not RL, this is the Dresden Files.

Deals made under duress have always been legally and magically binding in the supernatural world here. Ask Dresden.
I dont get why you are having trouble assimilating that the supernatural world operates under codes that are a lot more similar to laws from a thousand years ago than anything similar to modern jurisprudence.

Even in the real world, you still see some instances of this in shit like international law; its entirely legal to force people to surrender under the threat of being shot.


Whats bothering me is all this talk of postcognition not making any sense. If its so widespread and applicable then why the hell does the WC have such a huge spy problem? They know they have spys too so why isn't Rashid or someone else using this bullshit postcog to do something about it?
In part because the spies know how the WC can watch, and optimize to try to avoid being immediately obvious on a cursory look against it? In part because the White Council does not have the manpower to watch everyone?

There's one specialized White Council Warden thats specialized into Divination and Time magics, and they keep him at HQ almost all the time.
WHAT??? So he isn't even willing or able to use it to speak up and keep spys out of his own organization but yet he can still leverage it to cause problems for us?
What The Fuck????
We know fuckall about the constraints he's acting under.

Look at the passage I quoted.
Note that he doesnt speak up, but that he nudges Dresden in the back magically, and only when Dresden speaks up does he get to speak:
My words slowed him, and he froze in place for a terrible heartbeat. Then he closed his eyes and swallowed, his face twisting with nausea. He opened his eyes again and whispered, "Stand aside, Dresden. Please."
I looked wildly around the room for someone, anyone to help, for some way to stop this madness. I felt a sudden pressure against my spine, and I looked over my shoulder.
My eyes fell on the Gatekeeper.

I whirled back to Morgan and lifted my hands. "Point of order!" I cried. "Point of order! The Senior Council has not yet made its decision."

Rashid plays his cards very tightly to his chest.
He's the Gatekeeper. The oldest wizard on the Council, and thats counting Mai; Butcher explicitly tells us that he was the one responsible for taking out Al-Hazred the mad Arab back in the first millenium CE.

He cant afford to fuck up.
 
As an Exalted we are outside fate most time tricks to spy on us shouldn't see anything.
 
[X] Shout at him that you are supposed to split the loot, he'll probably get a kick out of that (Charisma+Empathy Base DC 6)
-[X] Leave the head, would you? I might need a new mantlepiece

[X] A deal's a deal, even with a monster, let him eat
 
In part because the spies know how the WC can watch, and optimize to try to avoid being immediately obvious on a cursory look against it? In part because the White Council does not have the manpower to watch everyone?
All I'm seeing here are guesses, shots in the dark. Reasonable ones but still.
There's one specialized White Council Warden thats specialized into Divination and Time magics, and they keep him at HQ almost all the time.
In that case why are we even worried about the possibility of him figureing out the details of our deal with BS? Again the spy thing is a known and prominent issue. If he can't spare time for it stuck up there at HQ then we've no reason to believe he's going to go out of his way to look into this either.
 
We drank the speed potion right now we are certainly faster and hellscry Charka means we will always know his location and ATB means we see though stealth.
Didn't stop the vampire from nearly reaching a hostage. BS might be faster than her even. Whats to stop him from grabbing a hostage or using the elders to escape?
 
Votes tied. The "I. Want loot" voters may want to consolidate.
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Sep 20, 2023 at 1:51 PM, finished with 104 posts and 26 votes.
 
Imagine 3 circles of people.

Those who can spy on a metal plane flying likely after the fact and have the spare time.

Those who care enough about Broken Seeker to care how he died. Or would be upset that we killed him.

Those who care that we killed Broken Seeker right after filling our deal with him.

Is there any overlap between these circles?
 
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Didn't stop the vampire from nearly reaching a hostage. BS might be faster than her even. Whats to stop him from grabbing a hostage or using the elders to escape?
The hostages are
woman she has been planning to consume is now behind reinforced metal meant to hold against even augmented gurvel strength.
We are never going to have him farther from hostages then he is now.

And of course if we let him get away how many people do you expect him to kill before we get around to him? I expect more than the amount of people on this plane.
 
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We are never going to have him farther from hostages then he is now.
The Red Queen pulled open one of those enclosures to get to the person inside. If it didn't stop her I don't think it will stop BS at all.
she rips open one of the protective enclosures claws reaching for the man's throat,


And of course if we let him get away how many people do you expect him to kill before we get around to him? I expect more than the amount of people on this plane.
Point.
 
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[X] Shout at him that you are supposed to split the loot, he'll probably get a kick out of that (Charisma+Empathy Base DC 6)
-[X] Leave the head, would you? I might need a new mantlepiece
 
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