Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Most examples are precog, so not relevant here (they would need post cog), the only example of past knowledge he shows is about the influence a powerful outsider left on Harry.

That leaves... nothing, none of the examples have any relevance to anyone *seeing* our betrayal via divination.



Look at the above paragraph, no examples of post cog, Intelectus is irrelevant to *everyone* knowing because it is rare and focused (Naagloshiis couldn't see our betrayal via theirs, for example), if someone is scrying us right now, they are already seing us work with a betrayer, not a great look anyway, pretty sure the spirits you are talking about don't exists.
I found another Ujupost that brings up Molly's Psychometry/postcog of the murder of Jessica Blanche in White Night. Whether or not there's anyone able or willing to postcog broken seeker's corpse, especially if we annhilate it... I doubt that.

However my position remains keep the deal for battle tactics reasons/the situation sucks for making that move.
 
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However my position remains keep the deal for battle tactics reasons/the situation sucks for making that move.

And that is a valid reason, there are indeed vampires left, so at least that is true, but the *anyone can see it and learn we betrayed BS* that Uju is saying is not an argument itself.

Which means, your decision works on the ground you stand on, his... don't in my eyes.
 
Edit: Right now my mindset is in keep the deal for combat tactical reasons.
And that is a valid reason, there are indeed vampires left, so at least that is true, but the *anyone can see it and learn we betrayed BS* that Uju is saying is not an argument itself.

Which means, your decision works on the ground you stand on, his... don't in my eyes.
Not to mention if he thinks he's screwed the bastard will probably dip as fast as he can turn into a tiny bird or something. What was the reason for us not attacking him before now? We couldn't find a long term base to set a trap right?

This might actually be our best opportunity even if we aren't on a full tank simply because he's been too good at avoiding direct conflict with us.
 
You are assuming, and pushing very hard, the assumption that everyone (anyone, really) would know if we betray Broken Seeker here, and murder him. At the same time, you have argued repeatedly that without hard evidence and a way to explain how we obtained said evidence, we can't do anything about Peabody, because either a) no one would believe us, or b) revealing this level of seer-like abilities is equal to suicide. These assumptions about the setting ("there's enough seers and other types of clairvoyants that knowledge of us betraying, backstabbing and killing Broken Seeker here will unavoidably spread and will be believed" and "clairvoyance strong enough to discover Peabody's treachery is either completely unknown or rare enough to justify eliminating an Infernal Exalt for possessing it") are mutually exclusive. Choose one, please.
1)I have pointed out multiple times, with citations, the various factions and entities with known information gathering abilities.
And thats just the known ones; just like we are hiding the Crown, I would not be surprised if other people and factions are hiding abilities of their own.


2) Furthermore, we have literally had it pointed out to us in Arc 9 Update 23 that we dont even have a full understanding IC of how much information is gathered on us and how obvious we are being, when a Fellowship cell was able to track our movement and locate us in an airport within hours of our arriving in Mexico.

The idea that we can do this shit, and it wont eventually come out, is just implausible.
Especially since there's a significant chance that Seeker is likely to survive and run.


3) Peabody has at least a century and half of meritorious service to the White Council.
He's been a traitor for at least six years, possibly decades without being caught, and he's actively working with Outsiders and Outsider shit covering for him in this AU; he canonically had a genie in a bottle Outsider in an inkjar.

If there are people who know or suspect, they are keeping their mouths shut and laying low.
Because Outsider attention is serious shit; see how people wont even use Nemesis' nickname.

We are the archdevil who just showed up six months ago.
Who used black magic on two of her friends.
If we didnt have Michael getting us a foot in the door, we'd be on a lot of shoot on sight lists.

And Michael's reputation is not a resource we can just take for granted; if its burned by Molly's actions, it affects both him and us.
Completely cynical response is that we can hide behind Michael's reputation. But note that I also mentioned having to prepare a cover story for how we obtained evidence / learned about evidence. Also, Peabody's treachery is far more reaching and easily discoverable. Numerous powerful agents dealing with White Council (Archive, Winter, Summer) should have known about it if it was that easy to discover via scrying / postcognition of some kind.
When Michael asks us for the truth, what exactly do you expect us to do? Lie?
To her father?
More to the point, to a Knight of the Cross?

Do you think Michael would lie when other people ask him?
 
have pointed out multiple times, with citations, the various factions and entities with known information gathering abilities.
So your saying that someone in setting has postcog powerful enough and -valid reason to apply that here- to find out the details of Molly's deal with BS along with the fact that they even had one to begin with.

That sounds like a Crown tier power right there. Show us the proof please. The specific power in question and the motive.
 
Dont even try to pull that fae shit here unless you explicitly want everyone to treat you like fae and double check every. Fucking. Thing. You. Ever. Say.
Implicit understandings are a thing in the setting, and the only people who try to pull this shit are villain-coded. Like the Reds.
Keep you saying that but that does not make it true. We held up our deal a deal negotiated made under duress for that matter. Having a reputation for killing people that start shit with our family and friends is a good thing. Letting him get away with this, just means we establish precedent that people can manipulate Molly into doing what they want by threatening her friends, and family. I assure Mab would not let him go unpunished for this affront no matter the terms of the deal.

We need to make it clear from the outset that the new power on the block does not play games. Go aginst us and get killed, treat with us with honor and we will do that same.
 
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1)I have pointed out multiple times, with citations, the various factions and entities with known information gathering abilities.
And thats just the known ones; just like we are hiding the Crown, I would not be surprised if other people and factions are hiding abilities of their own.
Information gathering abilities that aren't remote viewing or post-cognition, if the post slightly above this is correct.
2) Furthermore, we have literally had it pointed out to us in Arc 9 Update 23 that we dont even have a full understanding IC of how much information is gathered on us and how obvious we are being, when a Fellowship cell was able to track our movement and locate us in an airport within hours of our arriving in Mexico.

The idea that we can do this shit, and it wont eventually come out, is just implausible.
Especially since there's a significant chance that Seeker is likely to survive and run.
By this token we should stop hiding the crown and start using it to the max, because it, too, will come out, and faster and more reliably than us betraying BS. Setting up the stage for "he was killed by Arianna's death curse / died fighting" is, if not trivial, than doable.
He's been a traitor for at least six years, possibly decades without being caught, and he's actively working with Outsiders and Outsider shit covering for him in this AU; he canonically had a genie in a bottle Outsider in an inkjar.

If there are people who know or suspect, they are keeping their mouths shut and laying low.
Because Outsider attention is serious shit; see how people wont even use Nemesis' nickname.
So, are you saying that no major faction in the loose alliance against outsiders (Winter, Summer, Archive, church-related organizations, LoC, Odin) has access to these imaginary omniscient clairvoyants to discover Peabody's treachery and inform the council through their contacts? Then who has? And why should we care? Or are you saying that if Mab discovered that White Council was being subverted by an Outsider-aligned traitor at a position of trust, she wouldn't have acted out of fear?

No, this just doesn't work. If clairvoyants of such potency as you describe exist among any of the factions we care about, Peabody's treachery is impossible long-term and would be foolish to even attempt.
Who used black magic on two of her friends.
And who knows that?
We are the archdevil who just showed up six months ago.
Assume the delay between our treachery and Peabody's (which has far more moving parts, is ongoing, and is continuously affecting people) is the same. Six years at least. Do you really think that anyone would care that we took an opportunity to kill Broken Seeker in six years time? When we are most likely an undisputed Empress of large portions of USA's supernatural world, likely have conquered at least one Yomi Hell, and are possibly pushing elder essence levels of power?

When Michael asks us for the truth, what exactly do you expect us to do? Lie?
To her father?
More to the point, to a Knight of the Cross?

Do you think Michael would lie when other people ask him?
Michael should be trusted to be smart enough not to ask directly.
 
@DragonParadox did we not use Murder is Meat on her? The +2 Essence would certainly change votes.
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Sep 20, 2023 at 12:17 PM, finished with 68 posts and 15 votes.

  • [x] You are still pretty fresh, screw deals, you could kill more than one old monster today
    [X] A deal's a deal, even with a monster, let him eat
    [X] Shout at him that you are supposed to split the loot, he'll probably get a kick out of that (Charisma+Empathy Base DC 6)
    [X] Shout at him that you are supposed to split the loot, he'll probably get a kick out of that (Charisma+Empathy Base DC 6)
    -[X] Leave the head, would you? I might need a new mantlepiece
    [X] A deal's a deal, even with a monster, let him eat
    -[X] While he's eating, target any vampires that are trying to get at civilians; if they're running away, instead focus on getting the civilians to safety.
    [X] Shout at him that you are supposed to split the loot, he'll probably get a kick out of that (Charisma+Empathy Base DC 6)
    -[X] Stunt: Over the sound of rushing air and rampaging monsters, you shout, "Enjoy your meal! Maybe leave her head for me? I'm not quite finished with Ms. Ortega." There is no time to watch for Broken Seeker's response, however, as another maddened creature leaps at you, toward its death.
 
Not to mention how tenacious the lesser Skinwalker was when we captured and killed it. That dude was incredibly tenacious, and he was barely Naagloshii-lite.

There are multiple forms of Intellectus which could potentially reveal the information, including spirits who can just pull the info out of the air because that's how they roll. There are also various means of scrying on a subject, divination powers of all sorts, such as post-cognition, etc.
Remember that Lord Raith murdered Maggie LeFay at a distance and thought it was a secret?
But that people knew? That Chaunzaggaroth, a demon information broker from Hell, knew that Dresden's mother was murdered and how it happened, and was willing to trade the information to Dresden for...considerations.

Noone has asked how Ebenezar knew that Papa Raith killed his kid either, and he's never told.

A lot of shit that happens in the setting isnt necessarily public knowledge.
But doesnt mean that its a complete secret, or some people havent figured it out and kept it as leverage.
Because secrets are power.

So your saying that someone in setting has postcog powerful enough and -valid reason to apply that here- to find out the details of Molly's deal with BS along with the fact that they even had one to begin with.
That sounds like a Crown tier power right there. Show us the proof please. The specific power in question and the motive.
Two explicit entities with postcog and precog are the Mothers.
Cold Days chapter 32.
Rashid does as well. But I've done a list before.


Motive? We just killed the daughter of the Red King.
In the middle of World War Vampire. In Mexico, the heart of her father's power. Her childe and ex-husband was the Red King's right hand man before his death; her childe's death was the casus belli for the war breaking out.

Literally everyone has an interest in figuring out the details of who did it and how.
Given that we even warned Maeve, there's a good chance the Sidhe were watching this shit in real time, like Mab did in Small Favor.
 
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@DragonParadox did we not use Murder is Meat on her? The +2 Essence would certainly change votes.
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Sep 20, 2023 at 12:17 PM, finished with 68 posts and 15 votes.

  • [x] You are still pretty fresh, screw deals, you could kill more than one old monster today
    [X] A deal's a deal, even with a monster, let him eat
    [X] Shout at him that you are supposed to split the loot, he'll probably get a kick out of that (Charisma+Empathy Base DC 6)
    [X] Shout at him that you are supposed to split the loot, he'll probably get a kick out of that (Charisma+Empathy Base DC 6)
    -[X] Leave the head, would you? I might need a new mantlepiece
    [X] A deal's a deal, even with a monster, let him eat
    -[X] While he's eating, target any vampires that are trying to get at civilians; if they're running away, instead focus on getting the civilians to safety.
    [X] Shout at him that you are supposed to split the loot, he'll probably get a kick out of that (Charisma+Empathy Base DC 6)
    -[X] Stunt: Over the sound of rushing air and rampaging monsters, you shout, "Enjoy your meal! Maybe leave her head for me? I'm not quite finished with Ms. Ortega." There is no time to watch for Broken Seeker's response, however, as another maddened creature leaps at you, toward its death.

She is not technically dead, comes with having eaten a god, you are going to have to remove her head or her heart.
 
Two explicit entities with postcog and precog are the Mothers.
Rashid does as well. But I've done a list before.
In that case Rashid should also see that BS held Molly's friends hostage. It was an agreement made under duress not a bad precedent to set in his mind.

Or would he not see that? Again going to need to see a specific instance of this postcog because if he has it and can apply it then why does the WC have so many fucking spys in it?

As for the Mothers... They'll see the same thing a deal made under duress. They don't interfere much with the mortal world to begin with and on top of that are Fey. They probably did shit like this all the time back in the day why would they care??

Your reaching here.
 
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Remember that Lord Raith murdered Maggie LeFay at a distance and thought it was a secret?
Lord Raith wasn't stupid, and knew more about the setting than we do as book readers. He had reason to believe it was possible to get away with what he did. He was wrong, but his assumption had to be plausible for him to make an attempt. This is not an argument in your support.
 
[X] Shout at him that you are supposed to split the loot, he'll probably get a kick out of that (Charisma+Empathy Base DC 6)
-[X] Leave the head, would you? I might need a new mantlepiece
 
From what I have seen I am not confident in our ability to set a trap for BS or catch him unawares. We tried finding an in use hideout or base but never could. He currently trust us somewhat but how exactly are we to make use of that to kill him?

Setting a trap in our Hell then dragging it here with Shintai... Actually that could work.
 
Should we try that instead? Set up an elaborate trap in the Five Courts just for Broken Seerer so he can't escape or effectively fight then drag it here with Shintai? Fill it with outside of context dangers specifically for him then go for the kill? @DragonParadox Is that viable or does the ability to bring our Hell here not work that way?
 
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Should we try that instead? Set up an elaborate trap in the Five Courts just for Broken Seerer then drag it here with Shintai? Fill it with outside of context dangers specifically for him then go for the kill? @DragonParadox Is that viable or does the ability to bring our Hell here not work that way?

Molly could certainly make a trap, project it and see if it works in a half and half state, but you cannot really drag someone into the Fivefold Courts against their will, that needs them to be either unconscious or willing. Granted deception is a perfectly valid way to make someone' willing' so those are your options.
 
Keep you saying that but that does not make it true. We held up our deal a deal negotiated made under duress for that matter. Having a reputation for killing people that start shit with our family and friends is a good thing. Letting him get away with this, just means we establish precedent that people can manipulate Molly into doing what they want by threatening her friends, and family. I assure Mab would not let him go unpunished for this affront no matter the terms of the deal.

We need to make it clear from the outset that the new power on the block does not play games. Go aginst us and get killed, treat with us with honor and we will do that same.
Nobody gives a shit in the setting if you think you are under duress or not when you make a deal. Dont make deals you dont intend to keep. Even IRL when the US bargains for hostages prisoners being held by countries it doesnt like, its word matters. It doesnt just get prisoners released and then renege on any agreement.



Again, this sort of thing is considered the sort of shit that got the Reds a bad name.



This Hard Man nonsense just gets people killed. Next time, noone will bargain with you.
Noone will take your people prisoner, they'll just kill them.
If the consequences of what you are proposing had come to pass, Izzy and Alec would already be dead. So would the Jade Dogs.

We WANT people to take our people hostage instead of just killing them.
Hostages can be retrieved.


In that case Rashid should also see that BS held Molly's friends hostage. It was an agreement made under duress not a bad precedent to set in his mind.

Or would he not see that? Again going to need to see a specific instance of this postcog because if he has it and can apply it then why does the WC have so many fucking spys in it?

As for the Mothers... They'll see the same thing a deal made under duress. They don't interfere much with the mortal world to begin with and on top of that are Fey. They probably did shit like this all the time back in the day why would they care??
A reputation for breaking your word makes everyone unwilling to make agreements with you, because if you feel justified you'll just break it again. Thats a basic truth of the setting.
And one thats supported by the way known oathbreakers like the Red Court act.

Information gathering abilities that aren't remote viewing or post-cognition, if the post slightly above this is correct.
I know I've pointed out both Mab scrying on Marcone running from the Denarians in real time.
AND Molly performing postcog psychometry on a corpse as an apprentice.

By this token we should stop hiding the crown and start using it to the max, because it, too, will come out, and faster and more reliably than us betraying BS. Setting up the stage for "he was killed by Arianna's death curse / died fighting" is, if not trivial, than doable.
Feel free to spill your secrets in the open square.

So, are you saying that no major faction in the loose alliance against outsiders (Winter, Summer, Archive, church-related organizations, LoC, Odin) has access to these imaginary omniscient clairvoyants to discover Peabody's treachery and inform the council through their contacts? Then who has? And why should we care? Or are you saying that if Mab discovered that White Council was being subverted by an Outsider-aligned traitor at a position of trust, she wouldn't have acted out of fear?

No, this just doesn't work. If clairvoyants of such potency as you describe exist among any of the factions we care about, Peabody's treachery is impossible long-term and would be foolish to even attempt.
Or they dont consider it important enough to be worth showing their hand?
Just like Churchill (allegedly) didnt warn Conventry of incoming German bombers despite knowing of the attack during WW2 in order not to show his hand.

The Archive doesnt talk, period; even bending the rules to drop a hint is hard.
Winter, Summer and Odin play a long, long game, and often act very indirectly.
I dont know who the LoC is supposed to be.


Odin didnt intervene openly in the Vampire War when Archangel fell.
He didnt lift a finger when Dead Beat threatened Chicago, or when the White Council lost 70% of its Wardens. He only got involved during Changes, and even there he kept a lowkey appearance, deliberatley obscuring his presence.

Immortals play a very long game. And have longterm goals.
Rashid did.
Winter did. Nemesis did. Mouse did the first time he met Molly onscreen, even before Dresden figured it out. Summer does.
And thats just whats been shown onscreen.

Assume the delay between our treachery and Peabody's (which has far more moving parts, is ongoing, and is continuously affecting people) is the same. Six years at least. Do you really think that anyone would care that we took an opportunity to kill Broken Seeker in six years time? When we are most likely an undisputed Empress of large portions of USA's supernatural world, likely have conquered at least one Yomi Hell, and are possibly pushing elder essence levels of power?
Yes.
Just like people care that the Reds do shit like poison their drinks, or that previous fomor acts of treachery hundreds or thousands of years ago is something that the immortals have not forgotten.

Your reputation follows you.

Michael should be trusted to be smart enough not to ask directly.
Michael is a Knight of the Cross. He is not our bitch.
His allegiances are not for our convenience.
He is not going to avoid the question, any more than he avoided knowing about Dresden picking up Lasciel's Coin


Trying to one weird trick a Sword wielder generally ends badly.
 
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Duchess Arianna Ortega Defeated
A moment of silence for the sad fact that this fight stayed within the confines of the jet. The incredible potential of midair threeway combat between Broken Seeker, Molly, and Arianna was lost to us, and we will have to live with that. In the memory of this stillborn scene, we must promise ourselves that we will do better next time.
 
[x] You are still pretty fresh, screw deals, you could kill more than one old monster today

Didn't think this could win, so I didn't bother voting.
But it looks surprisingly possible right now.

And just to be clear, I believe that now that we have the Naagloshii's interest he'll propably come after us eventually and I much prefer not to give him the chance.
He knows what we can do now, he'll prepare.
He's propably not too proud to get help or Fetishes or anything else that might help him if he has time to adjust after he just saw our Shintai crack reality.
 
[X] Shout at him that you are supposed to split the loot, he'll probably get a kick out of that (Charisma+Empathy Base DC 6)
-[X] Leave the head, would you? I might need a new mantlepiece

So primarily I think we should keep the deal because we probably can't kill BS before he flees and failing to gank him would be worse than not tying at all imo.

Regarding the idea of 'keeping our word'

  1. I agree that in general we want a reputation for being reasonable and keeping the spirit of our deals. Fey get away with "exact terms" but that also means no one really trusts them and any interactions are always fraught.
  2. There are abilities that would find out even if we do clean kill BS and all the vamps here cleanly.
    • I'm not sure how reliable any of these are on Molly, hell princess, or likely to be used on her. We've made a big splash but are still one fish in a very large sea.
  3. Lastly people say it's okay since it just means we show we fuck with those who fuck with our friends. This is actually the weakest argument for "just betray him" imo. We don't care about our rep with people who already know us. They know us and know we can be reasonable with what counts as "threatening what's ours." An outsider--lets say the Shi had our first meeting with us after this debacle and didn't know anything than what's on the general grapevine--would probably look at Hell Princess and go "ah so that's the pretext she'll use anytime anything goes wrong." Seriously, it is incredibly easy to stretch "put my friends and family in harms way," and even with Micheal as our mentor, Nuclear Flaming Hell Princess kinda has a trust deficit by default.
    • To expand on the hypothetical Shi example a more typical infernal Molly with a "I'll keep my word unless you threaten me and mine," policy could claim that the whole of Chicago (or a large part of it) is hers--and I've read the thread to know some people do want to do this--that the Shi obviously brought danger to the City and her people via increased Nazi Necromancer shenanigans, and now she has the right to take recompense. Would this require an incredibly bad faith reading of the situation? Yes. But again see above about trust deficit. It's not "fair" but I do think we need at least a period of being incredibly scrupulous about keeping our word.
  4. "What stops people from trying the same thing again?" Well, in this case at least any bad actors know they do benefit from not harming the squishy mortals Molly is around so not a total loss.

So despite all of that, I am still overall neutral about the reputation "hit" from killing BS right now. We have fulfilled our deal, which was straightforward and the "catch" of 'literally only lasts until we do what we agreed to do' is hardly full fey levels of rules lawyering. It's just that I'm wary of some attitudes about how doing so its okay because we had a really good reason to. Its true, but good luck getting people who don't already know and have a positive impression of Molly to see it that way.
 
Uh..

Did we promise to kill her together with him or let him feed on her?

We have the opportunity to finish her off ourselves before he gets to her, I believe.
 
Fair.But thats just asshole behavior.

And frankly, I doubt that we'd be able to stop him busting out the side of the aircraft with a chunk of Ortega in his fist anyway.
We still have that speed potion active and are in S. He does that we catch him and then he is fighting us mid air when we summon the worst storm from our kingdom we can without having to worry about collateral.
 
A reputation for breaking your word makes everyone unwilling to make agreements with you
A single instance of killing or attacking a known betrayer will hardly "ruin our reputation" as you keep saying. That doesn't make any sense at all.

Again you still haven't provided specific in text evidence of postcognition so accurate that people would be so willing and able to find the details of our deal or the fact that we even had one to with BS. Or explanation on why the White Council has so many spies if its that much of an issue and Rashid -A MEMEBER OF THE WC HIMESELF- has it.
 
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