Esquestria: The House of the Sun - A pony cultist experience

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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Dear reader! Whether you are new here, archive-reading and whatnot, or you are already someone who has been with us for quite a while, I would like to say a few words that I believe are best kept close to mind.

-This is an MLP quest. And more importantly, none of us are gratuitously cruel. So good things will happen on this quest, and I hope that enough good things have already happened to prove that.
-This is also a horror quest, so bad things will happen. Bad things might happen to good characters if you are not able to protect them, and you most certainly will not be able to intervene if you lack the tools to do so.
-And finally, this is a quest in which you jostle with powers greater than yourself, with all that it entails.

Please, do keep those things in mind as you go forward. But ultimately, this is also a quest in which it is hoped we all have fun! So if any of the above points is not exactly your cup of tea, or somehow make the experience as a whole "not worth it", then this quest might not be for you. Which is fine! Individual tastes are a thing, so don't think any more about it if you don't want to read anymore. And regardless, I hope you have a lovely day!

Kaelor said:
PSA for whoever needs to hear it:

Readers should take their own mental health into consideration when voting and not subject themselves to triggering narrative elements like rape or constant mental torture of a friend just for the Greatest Good of a world that doesn't exist.

If those are fine for you or Regrettable is even more triggering, then GREAT! More power to you. But you aren't a bad or selfish person for picking the option that keeps the characters you've emotionally connected with safe. [REDACTED for spoiler warning]

This is a high intensity quest that doesn't hold back when it comes to horror and negative consequences. Take care of yourself.
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(Quote slightly edited to avoid spoilers)
 
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Earth-Destroyer said:
Wrong, velvet is only good at the lores the one thing we cannot use, without getting solarflare dead. Even hints that Velvet know more about the lores then level 1 after 5 turns passed since their discovery is risking instant death.
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Okay, that is patently ridiculous. We had level two in several lores by turn 5, and level three in Moth, and we weren't even doing dedicated study or anything.

Also, I am genuinely confused as to why people seem to think we need to excuse Velvet being some really good Master of the Lores to do the ritual. Literally any pony could, theoretically, do the ritual even with Level 0s, and I would be willing to bet that there were quite a few who tried in the Cult even without being able to get super high likelihood. Most people can't even use reagents reliably. Unless you expect the Alicorns to be on hand and watching as we do it, we don't need to explain that we're actually really strong in a lot of Lores so it wasn't really all that risky.

Velvet saw a chance, she took it, and got lucky. It was dangerous, but it worked, and now that she knows the basic ritual is viable they can use it for other stuff with more safe-guards.

Not that I'm voting to wait, but both sides of the argument seem to be making this weird assumption.
 
The way I look at it, we try to do things kindly and uprightly when we can with Velvet, and if she dies?

We go full pragmatism anamorality with Soft Sweeps, because being nice didn't work with the last character!

Emissary said:
Soft Sweeps (nothing "bad" has happened so far, but it still involved calling on the Wolf).
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I just want to point out that we didn't call on the Wolf with Soft Sweeps so much as clothesline its influence as it was trying to scarper off and then chokeslammed it back into the mess it had caused.
 
Talon TigerDino said:
I just want to point out that we didn't call on the Wolf with Soft Sweeps so much as clothesline its influence as it was trying to scarper off and then chokeslammed it back into the mess it had caused.
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Well when you put it like that, I almost feel sorry for the poor thing. :V

Seriously though, Velvet is fucking scary when she wants to be. Forcing the Wolf to restore life is not a small feat.
 
Talon TigerDino said:
The way I look at it, we try to do things kindly and uprightly when we can with Velvet, and if she dies?

We go full pragmatism anamorality with Soft Sweeps, because being nice didn't work with the last character!
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Fair.

I do like Velvet though and am going to try and vote for the options which won't end with her dying.

Even if it would be really really nice to be able to stop holding back. I mean even with Velvet's eldritch hax playing as Soft Sweeps will be like playing on God Mode.
 
Ericwinter said:
Okay, that is patently ridiculous. We had level two in several lores by turn 5, and level three in Moth, and we weren't even doing dedicated study or anything.

Also, I am genuinely confused as to why people seem to think we need to excuse Velvet being some really good Master of the Lores to do the ritual. Literally any pony could, theoretically, do the ritual even with Level 0s, and I would be willing to bet that there were quite a few who tried in the Cult even without being able to get super high likelihood. Most people can't even use reagents reliably. Unless you expect the Alicorns to be on hand and watching as we do it, we don't need to explain that we're actually really strong in a lot of Lores so it wasn't really all that risky.

Velvet saw a chance, she took it, and got lucky. It was dangerous, but it worked, and now that she knows the basic ritual is viable they can use it for other stuff with more safe-guards.

Not that I'm voting to wait, but both sides of the argument seem to be making this weird assumption.
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If we know enough about the ritual to know the DCs, then we can assume most who are familiar with the ritual are aware of the level of difficulty. While we don't necessary have to be some kind of Master of Forbidden Knowledge, we will need some sort of justification for being able to pull it off more reliably than the others who are just learning. Anyone can try it novice can try it, but very few would be successful.

Talon TigerDino said:
I just want to point out that we didn't call on the Wolf with Soft Sweeps so much as clothesline its influence as it was trying to scarper off and then chokeslammed it back into the mess it had caused.
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No matter how exactly it was pulled off, it's still using the Wolf's power and the Wolf's power is that of a literal incarnation of ate and destruction. Also, I was using the Wolf partially as a metaphor. He wasn't involved in the Twilight disaster, but it is still a result that he would approve of.

It wasn't even the threads good intentions that lead to the Soft Sweeps situation, just Velvet's, yet it is still a potential disaster in the making.
 
Emissary said:
If we know enough about the ritual to know the DCs, then we can assume most who are familiar with the ritual are aware of the level of difficulty. While we don't necessary have to be some kind of Master of Forbidden Knowledge, we will need some sort of justification for being able to pull it off more reliably than the others who are just learning. Anyone can try it novice can try it, but very few would be successful.
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That's the thing though. We don't. We just need to succeed, once, and and be able to say we didn't know how to do it before everyone else. As long as it's possible then they can't say for certain that Velvet didn't just get lucky, and the trust they have in her means they won't be trying to find a problem with that. Velvet has a history of doing dumb, dangerous things, and it's much more likely they'll default to that explanation rather than "oh she must secretly be actually good at this for bad reasons".
 
Talon TigerDino said:
The way I look at it, we try to do things kindly and uprightly when we can with Velvet, and if she dies?

We go full pragmatism anamorality with Soft Sweeps, because being nice didn't work with the last character
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My opinion, Sweeps only has 2 lore affinities. Basically if Velvet dies, we lose. We don't have artifacts, or nearly enough manuscripts. Dropping down to 0 in 8 lores, and worse losing our friends, and summons. We are already facing down a death curse every turn, and be the time Sweeps is even crossing the branding door. All the other summons will be out and working for enemies. Velvet will already be in a roll off for Baldomare once she is off cool down, maybe the DoA as well depending how hard Cooper comes after Velvet.

The GM has made no secret that a single name is a top level threat, to velvet with high level in all lores
 
I will say regarding casting the rituals its not like anyone actually sees the numbers actually involved in casting them those are just rules to try and create a semblance of balance as this is a game.

So if you want to explain how Velvet did it right the first time the easiest answer is "I got lucky and didnt make any mistakes when doing the ritual" we dont have to explain why we actual have 3 levels in grail and forge.
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
My opinion, Sweeps only has 2 lore affinities. Basically if Velvet dies, we lose. We don't have artifacts, or nearly enough manuscripts. Dropping down to 0 in 8 lores, and worse losing our friends, and summons. We are already facing down a death curse every turn, and be the time Sweeps is even crossing the branding door. All the other summons will be out and working for enemies. Velvet will already be in a roll off for Baldomare once she is off cool down, maybe the DoA as well depending how hard Cooper comes after Velvet.

The GM has made no secret that a single name is a top level threat, to velvet with high level in all lores
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Well, there's bound to be the Wolf involved, so it's probably not a guaranteed loss. Still, I feel like her path would funnel the quest into the Mother of Wolves ending, which is far from ideal.
 
Limabot said:
Well, there's bound to be the Wolf involved, so it's probably not a guaranteed loss. Still, I feel like her path would funnel the quest into the Mother of Wolves ending, which is far from ideal.
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See thats why if we think that as Velvet we're going to lose in a few we go scorched earth on our rivals so that our next character has an easier time of it without any powerful enemies who would stop them.

Huh I wonder what the master is up to…
 
Alright, then. Let me start by saying something everyone already knows. For reinstatement's sake.

Velvet Covers "very reasonably believes" that Celestia won't show any mercy once she finds whatever party harmed her sister.
That was a (technically) baseless assumption before, motivated by a few uncomfortable comments that "Celestia is tense" from Cadance. That is being slowly confirmed by Velvet herself, especially after her recent tourist visit to the not!dungeon she will be taking command of. And that will probably be confirmed in the near future, depending on how your audience with Celestia goes.
So, Velvet personally believes that if she is personally linked to the parties that attacked Luna, a game over (or some equivalent) will reach her. Maybe she gets thrown into the very same jail she was supposed to command, in a sense of irony. Maybe she just dies.

Right. So the Do Not Want thing Velvet wants to avoid is "being linked to the party that attacked Luna".

The main issue, then, is how things fit in a timeline.

Luna was attacked in the space between Turns 4 and 5. Almost a year ago. So "the party that attacked Luna" did something way back then.
Did Celestia investigate it in the meantime? Does she have any clues about it that you are not aware of? You do not know.
But IF Celestia learns of the Lores, she will also learn how to cast The Path Through Nightmares the same way you do, as well as every other ritual that is not Reflection of the Tapestry.
And IF she connects the dots, she will know for sure that Lore Practitioners attacked her sister all the way back in Turn 4. Consequently, she will know there have been Lore practitioners running around for at least a year, and probably far longer than that.
And IF she also realizes you were able to use Lores BEFORE you had a credible, untainted source of knowledge, she will assume you were one such Lore practitioner.

That is what I have in my mind. If you can break that chain of logic, you are golden.

How can you break it? I have no idea. Maybe find a (demonstrably) untainted source of Lore knowledge, that Celestia is both aware of and approves. Maybe find SOME way to convince her that you already knew of the Lores, but was not involved in Luna's attack. Maybe don't let her find out about the Lores at all, ever. Maybe do something else.

But I respect Celestia very much, in this quest. So if Velvet thinks there is a possible gap of logic that Celestia might see through, she will veto the plan herself.

That said...

Starlit Horizon said:
@BirdBodhisattva, am I correct that "kissing goodbye" is NOT a confirmation that we won't be able to use FR on us for some ridiculous amount of time, but more like "until we can get good excuse to explain Lores"/maybe "until Luna can give them to us"?
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See the above.

Revealing your scar to Cadance means revealing your scar to an alicorn that is currently in Celestia's team. So healing it will mean somepony will realize you knew the Lores, retroactively, and then it all goes downhill.
(EDIT: and to be abundantly clear, I won't answer you question about what amount of time it entails, because my thought process is not based on time. It's based on risk and threat to Velvet.)

Pittauro said:
actually, I'll ask directly: @BirdBodhisattva is that plan feasible in Velvet's opinion? Does she think she could nudge things so one of her agents would find the library (possibly in canterlot part 1 secret base), organize things as to make it look like a past cult location, and then fake studying the notes until she can justify being able to use Forge's redemption, and show the Alicorns the results?
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Given how she will be able to direct agents, Velvet thinks she can plant knowledge of the Lores somewhere and have her agents find it, yes.

How the world will react to that, however, is entirely beyond her ability to predict. Let alone her control.

Pittauro said:
@BirdBodhisattva still waiting for if this kind of plan would be feasible by the way.
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Ah yes, the double ping. Notorious for always working :V



Let me know if I missed anything? Good day to us all!
 
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Of course, there is Luna herself who is almost certainly going to throw a different sort of unpredictable wrench on the whole situation.
 
BirdBodhisattva said:
How can you break it? I have no idea. Maybe find a (demonstrably) untainted source of Lore knowledge, that Celestia is both aware of and approves. Maybe find SOME way to convince her that you already knew of the Lores, but was not involved in Luna's attack. Maybe don't let her find out about the Lores at all, ever. Maybe do something else.
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BirdBodhisattva said:
Given how she will be able to direct agents, Velvet thinks she can plant knowledge of the Lores somewhere and have her agents find it, yes.

How the world will react to that, however, is entirely beyond her ability to predict. Let alone her control.
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Tbh, the first thing that comes to mind is, assuming the Luna Situation works out in our favor (and Hours knows how that's going to play out), is doing (a bit of) what Pittauro suggested in planting Lore evidence, have the whole "Lore investigation" thing stay in-house for a while under Luna's auspice and just... not tell Celestia for a bit while the Bureau studies it.

We just didn't want to give a report on something of this magnitude until we were fully sure of its capabilities after all :V

Dunno if it'd actually be possible, but. Eh.
 
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BirdBodhisattva said:
That is what I have in my mind. If you can break that chain of logic, you are golden.
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BirdBodhisattva said:
See the above.

Revealing your scar to Cadance means revealing your scar to an alicorn that is currently in Celestia's team. So healing it will mean somepony will realize you knew the Lores, retroactively, and then it all goes downhill.
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So with these two points together, if Velvet has broken the chain of logic between "Velvet knows the Lores" and "Velvet is connected to the people who attacked Luna" then Celestia realizing Velvet knows the Lores is not bad. Correct?

I ask because I just know somebody is going to take that second quote, ignore the first, and use it as an argument that we can't use the ritual ever because Celestia knowing Velvet has Lores is inherently bad no matter the circumstances forever now.
 
Ericwinter said:
So with these two points together, if Velvet has broken the chain of logic between "Velvet knows the Lores" and "Velvet is connected to the people who attacked Luna" then Celestia realizing Velvet knows the Lores is not bad. Correct?

I ask because I just know somebody is going to take that second quote, ignore the first, and use it as an argument that we can't use the ritual ever because Celestia knowing Velvet has Lores is inherently bad no matter the circumstances forever now.
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Is not instant game over. Good or bad is a lot more complex.
 
Shaper47 said:
@BirdBodhisattva, Just to be super clear here, Velvet does not think she can get away with revealing the lores in two turns and healing her scar then?
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Didn't our feathered friend just literally say
BirdBodhisattva said:
(EDIT: and to be abundantly clear, I won't answer you question about what amount of time it entails, because my thought process is not based on time. It's based on risk and threat to Velvet.)
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?
(The edit being 10 min before shapers question)
 
What /is/ the plan when Luna wakes up? Assuming she remembers her Lore lessons, she's probably concerned about who attacked her. She's likely willing to extend us an incredible amount of charitable doubt on account of being her Mother for a good while, but are we going to come out and confess everything about the Cult to her?

We probably should. We didn't really know what we were doing with the Lores back then, and the Master is a terrifying person to say No to, so we've got a reasonable defense that we were compelled to participate in the Path Through Nightmares. If we swear up and down that we've broken from the cult and will do no further evil (at least without permission?) then we have a path for getting Luna to help us come up with something to say to Celestia.
 
Shaper47 said:
@BirdBodhisattva, Just to be super clear here, Velvet does not think she can get away with revealing the lores in two turns and healing her scar then?
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Velvet won't know because we don't know, both how much Luna will be on our side and how much Luna will be willing to assist us in our Laundering.

Because by the look of things if Luna can back and said "I figured out how I was attacked. Both times! We must learn it so we will not be vulnerable ever again." I suspect Celestia would be all for it.

And I don't think anyone suggested two turns from now anyway. Earliest I can finagle it is turn 19 via Luna's direct assistance.
 
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Ericwinter said:
So with these two points together, if Velvet has broken the chain of logic between "Velvet knows the Lores" and "Velvet is connected to the people who attacked Luna" then Celestia realizing Velvet knows the Lores is not bad. Correct?
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"Velvet will not do anything if she believes doing that will be suicide".

I am not working under the assumption that if Velvet reveals she knows the Lores, she automatically dies. I am just working under the assumption that if you put the ball on Celestia's court (by revealing her you know the Lores without an explanation) she will see you as an enemy as soon as she learns the Lores ALSO hurt her sister.

So yes, as long as "Velvet is not connected to the people ponies who attacked Luna" I don't really mind what you do.

Because again, my greatest problem is that Velvet can make very educated assumptions about the future. And since she WANTS to reveal the Lores to Equestria, that means it might be traced back to Luna's attack, and that in turn will put a target on the back of everyone who knew of the Lores BEFORE it was "officially discovered".

It's a bit of a paradox. The message itself is fine, but the messenger will be shot if he is not very careful.

Shaper47 said:
@BirdBodhisattva, Just to be super clear here, Velvet does not think she can get away with revealing the lores in two turns and healing her scar then?
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I... can you please rephrase your question? I honestly am not entirely sure of what you mean by that.
 
Spector29 said:
What /is/ the plan when Luna wakes up? Assuming she remembers her Lore lessons, she's probably concerned about who attacked her. She's likely willing to extend us an incredible amount of charitable doubt on account of being her Mother for a good while, but are we going to come out and confess everything about the Cult to her?
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I think the plan is currently "just do it, whatever happens happens, and hope it works out generally in our favor".
 
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BirdBodhisattva said:
And IF she also realizes you were able to use Lores BEFORE you had a credible, untainted source of knowledge, she will assume you were one such Lore practitioner.

That is what I have in my mind. If you can break that chain of logic, you are golden.
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We gained Lore scraps from books we purchased from merchants. Do you imply they are connected to some evil cultists? Or may be there actually are some genuine sources of Lores in open circulation?

Also, we gained lore scraps just from wondering the Mansus. Meaning that once a pony got access to the Woods, it can raise Lore levels somewhat substancially without any shady activities/
 
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