Hey everyone! I had it brought to my attention that attempting to vote for the same thing twice may result in confusing the vote counter. As such, add [Double] after the [X] on your vote if you want, say, double IEC budget.

Ex:

[] [Double] More IEC Budget
 
I was tempted to be magnanimous and not ask for something that is exclusively a benefit to ourselves, but I figured we really need that budget.

[X] More African Educational Infrastructure
[X] More IEC Budget

Also hahaha, I love how you can tell from the fluff text that the engine cycles project isn't complete. You can tell their proposals are in the ballpark of good, but they're all subtly off. Like using an expander cycle for methalox instead of hydrogen, or fuel rich combustion for kerosene instead of methane.
Thank you for pointing out that detail, I never would have noticed it myself. Very nice to have a rocket nerd like you among us to point these things out.
Counterpoint: When you have more education and less physical stuff, you end up building very JEB rockets. :V
What is a "JEB rocket"? Some Kerbal Space Program reference?
Esperanto is an option, but what if we have a conlang project as an outreach option?

"Dear Mr. Tolkien, you are cordially invited..."
The Professor is probably having a meltdown in this setting. Not only did the world just go through its third bout of hellish industrial warfare, but it was ended with all the monarchies of the old world getting overthrown and replaced with revolutionary peasant rabble. I don't think he'll want to work for us.
 
[X] More IEC Budget
[X] [Double] More IEC Budget
 
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You know, a methalox rocket actually makes a lot of sense for us. IRL it's a bit underwhelming for space launch compared to kerosine mostly because there's a lot of kerolox legacy.

In the 50s however, oil refineries would literally just burn it. We could get it for free. Well, we'd probably have to do a bit of infrastructural R&D into liquefaction and transportation, but that's honestly a bonus because we can show it off to the Council as us doing research beneficial to planetside concerns.

And most importantly, a methalox fuel rich staged combustion cycle is actually viable, and probably a lot easier to develop than an oxygen rich cycle - which needs a lot of material R&D. And it's a pretty decent jack of all trades propellant - decent for surface to orbit, decent for orbital stuff, decent for interplanetary missions if you have depots. Not as difficult to handle as a lot of other fuels, can double as RCS gas, etc.

Also lets us eliminate a fuel tank dome because the LOX and methane tanks can share the same temperature - early on those mass savings are significant.
This is the same logic behind why I was half-seriously joking about a pressure-fed kerosene/HTP engine - there's a possibility, with a later war and a much stronger Germany, that HTP torpedoes were relatively commonplace; there may be tanks of HTP sitting around as a relatively cheap oxidizer.

That said, IIRC expander-cycle engines are quite expensive due to needing finely-machined combustion chambers. While we're operating on a shoestring budget and trying to put satellites in orbit as fast as possible, a methalox expander cycle is IMO not ideal. However, there's a lot of potential there once we have more money to through around!
 
I was tempted to be magnanimous and not ask for something that is exclusively a benefit to ourselves, but I figured we really need that budget.

[X] More African Educational Infrastructure
[X] More IEC Budget


Thank you for pointing out that detail, I never would have noticed it myself. Very nice to have a rocket nerd like you among us to point these things out.

What is a "JEB rocket"? Some Kerbal Space Program reference?

The Professor is probably having a meltdown in this setting. Not only did the world just go through its third bout of hellish industrial warfare, but it was ended with all the monarchies of the old world getting overthrown and replaced with revolutionary peasant rabble. I don't think he'll want to work for us.



"I am the fuel of the rocket,
Steel is my Structure and Fire is my Thrust.
I have created over a Thousand Motors,
Unknown to Ground,
Nor known to Space.
Have withstood RUDs to create many Launchers
Yet those Fairings will never hold Payloads.
So, as I Pray--

Unlimited Booster Works!"

On the topic of Tolkien, I've seen analysis that the idylic Shire that he writes about is actually fairly socialist/anarchist, and his good monarchs tend to be moral paragons that he himself acknowledges as unrealistic, so it's not outside the real of believability that he's be okwith the revolution - even if he's have preffered some sort of Monarcho-Anarchism. :V

This is the same logic behind why I was half-seriously joking about a pressure-fed kerosene/HTP engine - there's a possibility, with a later war and a much stronger Germany, that HTP torpedoes were relatively commonplace; there may be tanks of HTP sitting around as a relatively cheap oxidizer.

That said, IIRC expander-cycle engines are quite expensive due to needing finely-machined combustion chambers. While we're operating on a shoestring budget and trying to put satellites in orbit as fast as possible, a methalox expander cycle is IMO not ideal. However, there's a lot of potential there once we have more money to through around!

Do you mean staged combustion? Or gas generator? Expander cycles don't have pre-burners.
 
Unlimited Booster Works!"
Nah, this is what happens when you have questionable education and no funding cap.

That said, I am all for it if we're smart about it.
Do you mean staged combustion? Or gas generator? Expander cycles don't have pre-burners.
Nope, expander cycle.

You're getting the heat into the fuel that causes it to expand by running it through the walls of the combustion chamber and getting it very hot. IIRC, and it's been quite a while, but the amount of machining needed for the large number of coolant channels an expander cycle engine needs to run efficiently (more than traditional regeneratively-cooled engines) results in a very high resource and time cost, mostly due to having to slowly braze thousands of tiny pipes.
 
Nah, this is what happens when you have questionable education and no funding cap.

That said, I am all for it if we're smart about it.

Nope, expander cycle.

You're getting the heat into the fuel that causes it to expand by running it through the walls of the combustion chamber and getting it very hot. IIRC, and it's been quite a while, but the amount of machining needed for the large number of coolant channels an expander cycle engine needs to run efficiently (more than traditional regeneratively-cooled engines) results in a very high resource and time cost, mostly due to having to slowly braze thousands of tiny pipes.

Oh we solved the channel problem! Our rocket nozzles are built in the Soviet fashion: corrugated steel sandwiched between two smooth covers. It's much lower cost compared to what the Americans were doing - I think this was actualy a proposed upgrade for the SSME after the end of the Cold War and the start of tech sharing.
 
[X] More African Educational Infrastructure
[X] More African Transportation Infrastructure
 
Oh we solved the channel problem! Our rocket nozzles are built in the Soviet fashion: corrugated steel sandwiched between two smooth covers. It's much lower cost compared to what the Americans were doing - I think this was actualy a proposed upgrade for the SSME after the end of the Cold War and the start of tech sharing.
Sure, but have we actually developed that? IIRC it took the Americans a few decades to catch onto that trick.

Even then, it's still fairly costly. I'm of the opinion that, with just a pressure-fed two-stage rocket, we should be able to get enough payload to orbit to convince the higher-ups that yes, the space program deserves further funding.
 
Sure, but have we actually developed that? IIRC it took the Americans a few decades to catch onto that trick.

Even then, it's still fairly costly. I'm of the opinion that, with just a pressure-fed two-stage rocket, we should be able to get enough payload to orbit to convince the higher-ups that yes, the space program deserves further funding.

Yes, we've developed that? It's in the updates?

You can advocate for OTRAG if you want but I don't think that's the best path for us to take. :p
 
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Yes, we've developed that? It's in the updates?

You can advocate for OTRAG if you wan't but I don't think that's the best path for us to take. :p

Ngl I had totally forgotten. If we can get some good injector designs we are well on our way to some very nice rocket engines.

I don't think OTRAG is a great idea (iirc it was UDMH/N2O4 and we have Korolev's hypergolic malus, plus we don't have economies of scale to consider), but I do think a pressure fed engine is good because it makes things very simple. We have four years to put a satellite in orbit and presumably we want to demonstrate as soon as possible that the space program is worth all the budget they're throwing our way.

IMO, we should first aim for the lowest technical risk rocket that can put a meaningful satellite into orbit. Once we've done that we probably want to start thinking of a rocket that is safe and reliable enough that we can use it to routinely throw earth observation satellites, science payloads, and crewed capsules into orbit. With our space agency's mission, that rocket will probably be our bread-and-butter until we develop something like STS (but actually good), and I'm not confident we can get it right on the first try - better we have a quick-and-dirty stopgap now to satisfy the timed requirements and then use that to get some breathing space and make a kick-ass clean-sheet launcher a couple of years later.
 
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Fun thread, i like. Weather sats are fucking huge. Saved my grammas life from a hurricane. I want to push hard for those.
Don't we need to build something in Ukraine for korolev?
 
[X] More African Transportation Infrastructure
[X] More African Electrical Infrastructure
 
[x] More African Electrical Infrastructure

[x] More African Transportation Infrastructure

5R/turn just doesn't impress me, really.
 
Vote Closed


Education and cash have it. Had to count the [Double]s myself, but I'll work on a better solution for next time.
 
It's a fair bit when you consider how much budget we actually have! 5R/turn over an entire year would be akin to getting a wind tunnel built (for example), which would give us +3 to AERO.

After backreading a bit (to find prices), I also noticed that our launch pad is good for 30 ton rockets. Given that Diamant was about 20 tons and could put 160 kg into LEO, we could probably use that pad for TIROS-1 and Project Echo analogues before needing to spend money on a launch complex rated for human spaceflight.
 
Building infrastructure without increasing electrical capacity feels like dooming the local area to rely on coal and diesel trains for the immediate, since they're unlikely to be able to electrify their rail lines for a while. It's nothing major and they're still benefit from having trains, but it'll probably be a while until they can make the switch.
 
1952 World Council
It was chilly on this early winter day in Baghdad, six degrees by the mercury thermometer by your window. The Council was going into session today, to argue about funding priorities, debate questions affecting the world, argue more about funding priorities, showcase achievements, and argue some more about funding priorities. The Council session would go on for roughly a month, but the part you needed to be present for would last only a week, and then it would be back to Mogadishu for you.

The Council was taking place in an old palace complex, being one of the few extant areas where the number of people who needed to gather could. Thousands of representatives milled about, separated by committee or region or however they wished to be. It was chaotic and it almost seemed like it couldn't work… but.

It did. Because everyone involved knew it had to.

Though there had been an incident between the Social Democratic League and the United Workers' Front before the Council session started properly. Again. Apparently two UWF Councilors had confronted a party of SDL Councilors, an argument ensued, a fight broke out, and both UWF Councilors and three of the SDL's had to be sent to the hospital.

Meanwhile, the Free Workers of the World were arguing with seemingly the entire Internationale...

Active Major Parties

The Internationale (Marxist-Leninist) -
(The Internationale's Marxist-Leninist wing, primarily formed from the former Soviet Union. They lean more authoritarian than most of the other major factions, given their ideological bent, but are also heavily pro-industrialization and trending towards shedding the -Leninist side of their ideology.

The Internationale (Debsist) - The Internationale's Debsist wing, primarily popular in Anglosphere regions and particularly in America. Less authoritarian than the M-L wing, they are also somewhat reserved on the topic of transitioning to a fully non-hierarchical society due to their roots as a socialist movement.

The Internationale (Councilist) - The Councilists are the largest faction of the Internationale by a small but significant margin, advocating for the devolution of power into the hands of locally- and trades-based councils, thus their name. This is the faction most comfortable with non-hierarchical society and anarchist teachings.

United Workers' Front - The UWF is something of a vanguard party, regularly getting into brawls with SDL members. Their numbers include many of the people fighting to keep the forces of capital and authoritarianism from rising again, and as such their main focus is maintaining enough security funding to allow local community defense organizations to fend off guerrillas and partisans, which are still active in much of the world. They are relatively non-hierachical in bent, but tend also to be somewhat more socially conservative. They are the smallest of the major parties, but they are not without weight.

Free Workers of the World - The FWW formed from the Industrial Workers of the World following the end of the Revolution. Growing to encompass all trades and occupations, from steelworkers to chemists to prostitutes, the FWW relentlessly campaigns for greater rights and protections for anyone performing work that society values.

Social Democratic League - Having the middlemost numbers of the major parties, the SDL draws under its banners everyone who wants a seat at the table but isn't aboard with either a transition to full communism or socialism, wishing to see a limited return of capitalist thought. Some members are considerably more extreme, to include monarchists and populist authoritarians.

Colonized Peoples' Advancement League - The CPAL is another middleweight party focused on providing restitution and assistance to those peoples crushed by the weight of Imperial (and imperial) oppression across the world. Their major foci are on building equality of opportunity, infrastructure and industry in places that had been extracted from by the world's powers.

Total Councilors: 5000
Stances on IEC (Strongly Favor/Somewhat Favor/Somewhat Oppose/Strongly Oppose)

Int(M-L): 0/458/400/0
Int(D): 0/250/200/0
Int(C): 0/800/250/0
UWF: 5/300/50/20
FWW: 20/377/300/0
SDL: 0/412/400/13
CPAL: 11/414/200/0
Minor: 5/20/32/43

Objectives of the World Communal Council

Complete Post-War Reconstruction (5000/200000)
Defeat Partisan Forces

State of the World

Mediterranean/Saharan Africa

Education: 4
Electrification: 2
Industry: 1
Infrastructure: 2
Security: 1
Partisan Activity: 4

Sub-Saharan Africa
Education: 3
Electrification: 2
Industry: 2
Infrastructure: 2
Security: 3
Partisan Activity: 9

Eastern Asia
Education: 7
Electrification: 5
Industry: 8
Infrastructure: 6
Security: 6
Partisan Activity: 11

Western Asia
Education: 8
Electrification: 10
Industry: 10
Infrastructure: 9
Security: 5
Partisan Activity: 12

Australia and New Zealand
Education: 5
Electrification: 5
Industry: 4
Infrastructure: 4
Security: 2
Partisan Activity: 6

Europe
Education: 8
Electrification: 10
Industry: 7
Infrastructure: 10
Security: 5
Partisan Activity: 9

North America
Education: 7
Electrification: 11
Industry: 11
Infrastructure: 8
Security: 6
Partisan Activity: 14

South America
Education: 5
Electrification: 5
Industry: 3
Infrastructure: 3
Security: 4
Partisan Activity: 4

Pacific Islands
Education: 2
Electrification: 2
Industry: 1
Infrastructure: 1
Security: 1
Partisan Activity: 4


Here you can spend and gain PS advocating for policies, pursuing programs, and performing tasks for the WCC.

Funding Wars, Episode I: The Partisan Menace

Current WCC Budget: 20,000R
Current IEC Budget (without extras): 50R (0.25%)
Current PS: 45

[ ] [FUND] 0.25% - Keeping your funding at its current level is doable, if only barely. It might somewhat help your political chances though. (+5 PS)

[ ] [FUND] 0.5% - Doubling your current funding is a relatively harmless ask, now that the IEC has shown that it can in fact do things. It won't win you any friends, but it comes with few risks. (+50R/turn)

[ ] [FUND] 0.75% - Tripling your current funding might be a bigger ask, but it would definitely help you expand your efforts more rapidly. (+100R/turn, -10PS)

[ ] [FUND] 1% - The big leagues. You shoot for the moon by asking the Council to quadruple your budget in order to fund a wide-ranging program of science and engineering - and, of course, putting highly-skilled, prestigious jobs in as many places as you can. (+150R/turn, -20PS)

[ ] [FUND] 1.5% - The IEC requests truly major funding in order to crash build a whole lot of infrastructure, employ lots of scientists and engineers, and generally throw its utmost at Space Access. (+250R/turn, -40PS, all parties move 1d20 steps towards Oppose)

Promises
All promises are intended to be kept within the year - from Q1 to Q1.


Must take at least two.

[ ] Complete Weather Studies (Phase 3) (+5 PS) (All parties move +1d10 steps towards Favor)

[ ] Complete Materials Research (Phase 2) (+5 PS) (Int(C), Int(D), Int(M-L), FWW move 2d10 steps towards Favor)

[ ] Complete Exploratory Propellant Research (Phase 2) (+5 PS) (CPAL, UWF, FWW move 2d10 steps towards Favor)

[ ] Complete All-Sky Survey (Phase 1) (+10 PS) (All Internationale factions move 1d10 steps towards Favor)

[ ] Build Computational Research Facility (+5 PS) (All parties but UWF move 1d10 steps towards Favor)

[ ] Complete Rocket Boxes (Phase 3) (+5 PS, CPAL moves 2d10 steps towards Favor)

[ ] Do not expand to more than 2 Facilities Dice (+5PS, CPAL moves 2d5 steps towards Favor)

[ ] Do not pursue Spaceplane research (+5 PS, SDL moves 2d10 steps towards Favor)

[ ] Do not pursue Rocketry research (+5 PS, SDL moves 2d10 steps towards Favor)

[ ] Do not acquire nuclear technology (+10 PS, all parties but UWF move 2d10 towards Favor)

Requests

[ ] Nuclear Infrastructure (-30PS) (CPAL, SDL move 2d20 steps towards Oppose; all other parties move 2d10) (Gain Basic Nuclear Technology, 1 Refinement Facility)

[ ] Dark Sky Development Regulations (-5 PS) - Work with the local councils to draft a set of regulations regarding keeping dark sky sites dark for astronomical use.

[ ] Broadcast Regulations (-5 PS) - Work with the local councils to draft a set of regulations regarding keeping certain radio frequencies unused for radio astronomy.

[ ] Additional Construction Union Support (-5 PS, all parties but CPAL move 1d10 steps towards Favor, CPAL moves 1d10 steps towards Oppose) (Gain 1 Facilities dice, +5 to Facilities rolls)

The Nuclear Option

"Director Carter, it has come to our attention that your Cooperative has come into possession of an atomic weapon." The man who held the floor was older and spoke with an accent that you could place as Russian, his unevenly graying beard making him look somewhat like Marx. He rapped his fingers against the table he stood by and stood straight again. "Why is it not in a disarmament locker?"

I'm not entirely sure myself. "It was given to us by the caretaker committee for the locker it was located at, when we asked for certain materials that are advantageous to rocketry research. I'm not entirely certain why it is they thought we needed an atomic bomb, however."

"And what do you plan to do with it?"

[ ] [BOMB] Return it to the demil locker, of course. (+10PS)
[ ] [BOMB] Return it to the demil locker, in exchange for additional funding this year. (+10R/turn)
[ ] [BOMB] Use it in an experiment on radioactivity in space - when we can get a rocket big enough to put it there. (-5 PS, all parties take steps towards Oppose based on results)
[ ] [BOMB] We can theoretically use them to power or propel spacecraft; we would like to become the custodian for all the remaining bombs.(-10 PS, gain… a lot more bombs.)
 
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