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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Yog said:
I think you are conflating "white council" with "mortal human magic". Dresden can absolutely teach a minor practitioner. In fact, it would be a good practice for him to do so. To learn how to work with less than his power, how to adapt and improve efficiency of his magic.

We, on the other hand, have occult 5, excellencies and teaching charms. While we can't do mortal human magic right now, we absolutely can teach it. The theory, the methods, the logic behind it all.
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I don't actually disagree with anything you just said aside from maybe teaching while it could do dresden some good guy is also uh kinda fucked as far as needing time hes always slogged and a minor talent is less likely to be able to protect themselves under dresden cause you know someones gonna use them to mess with dresden. The latter isn't strictly a reason not for dresden to do it she won't ever be put in white council itself though so it could go bad for some reasons and there are safer people to learn from when you 'merely' have a minor talent (or not learn at all other than some rules as really minor talents won't benefit too much. Also don't actually need it as much since their minor talents so unlikely to accidently murder somebody. especially since wizard magic is very very personalized) also you know eventually white council could notice dresden teaching them and you know look at the black magic done to her head or some other assorted things and blame dresden or just cause general problems for him as teaching such a minor practitioner could mean hes making a cult or some such nonsense. Lastly for molly teaching well then shes not really the same thing its just such different stuff its nothing like learning from dresden and has nothing to do with the stuff I said when talking about dresden.
 
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The vote is really close and this is a big responsibility and character moment so I'm not closing it yet.

If you guys have an vote or an argument to make now's the time
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Aug 5, 2022 at 2:38 AM, finished with 70 posts and 24 votes.
  • [X] Offer Rosie as much money as she might need to take care of her baby, you'll figure it out somehow
    [X] First, she is going to focus on getting better.
    -[X] Second, you're going to research the shit out of every charity and possible aid she can get. There are things out there, and you're part of a church that likely has plenty of connections for that.
    -[X] Third, you are here for her. If all else fails, you will find ways to help and support her, and you can do a lot.
    -[X] Ultimately though, she has to remember that you're here for her. You are not going to demand she rely on you. If she needs something you can help, but you also want to help her get better and have a brighter future where she can be independent on her own.
    [X] "You don't have to make any decisions right now, Rosie. Focus on getting healthy and staying that way, both for yourself and for the baby. That's the most important thing right now."
    -[X] "Whether you decide to keep her or find another home for her, you have options. There are resources, charities, and churches that can help. You wouldn't be the first young, unwed mother with a newborn baby and you won't be the last. And you've still got me. We'll figure something out, okay?"
    --[X] And while you don't mention it to Rosie, you resolve yourself to acquire the funds to support your friend and her baby, should it prove necessary.
    [X] Say nothing, just arrange for her to find a winning lottery ticket in a few months.
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[X] First, she is going to focus on getting better.
-[X] Second, you're going to research the shit out of every charity and possible aid she can get. There are things out there, and you're part of a church that likely has plenty of connections for that.
-[X] Third, you are here for her. If all else fails, you will find ways to help and support her, and you can do a lot.
-[X] Ultimately though, she has to remember that you're here for her. You are not going to demand she rely on you. If she needs something you can help, but you also want to help her get better and have a brighter future where she can be independent on her own.

I like this better
 
[X] "You don't have to make any decisions right now, Rosie. Focus on getting healthy and staying that way, both for yourself and for the baby. That's the most important thing right now."
-[X] "Whether you decide to keep her or find another home for her, you have options. There are resources, charities, and churches that can help. You wouldn't be the first young, unwed mother with a newborn baby and you won't be the last. And you've still got me. We'll figure something out, okay?"
--[X] And while you don't mention it to Rosie, you resolve yourself to acquire the funds to support your friend and her baby, should it prove necessary.
 
I mostly just dislike the charity part since its not actually all that helpful and more a time waster charities don't often help permanently and they definitely don't help permanently for many people. We're an exalted we know we can solve these problems we have so many options that don't rely on limited charities which our friend might not even want and hardly any of them are gonna fix the drug, pregnancy, money problem, and parent problem.
 
[X] First, she is going to focus on getting better.
-[X] Second, you're going to research the shit out of every charity and possible aid she can get. There are things out there, and you're part of a church that likely has plenty of connections for that.
-[X] Third, you are here for her. If all else fails, you will find ways to help and support her, and you can do a lot.
-[X] Ultimately though, she has to remember that you're here for her. You are not going to demand she rely on you. If she needs something you can help, but you also want to help her get better and have a brighter future where she can be independent on her own.
 
Changing my vote to this one just to make sure we don't just promise to throw money at Rosie.

[X] First, she is going to focus on getting better.
-[X] Second, you're going to research the shit out of every charity and possible aid she can get. There are things out there, and you're part of a church that likely has plenty of connections for that.
-[X] Third, you are here for her. If all else fails, you will find ways to help and support her, and you can do a lot.
-[X] Ultimately though, she has to remember that you're here for her. You are not going to demand she rely on you. If she needs something you can help, but you also want to help her get better and have a brighter future where she can be independent on her own.
 
Ok so looking at the votes there seems to be a general consensus of help, but don't rush into things, which is also what the leading vote wants.

Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Aug 5, 2022 at 6:05 AM, finished with 91 posts and 26 votes.
  • [X] First, she is going to focus on getting better.
    -[X] Second, you're going to research the shit out of every charity and possible aid she can get. There are things out there, and you're part of a church that likely has plenty of connections for that.
    -[X] Third, you are here for her. If all else fails, you will find ways to help and support her, and you can do a lot.
    -[X] Ultimately though, she has to remember that you're here for her. You are not going to demand she rely on you. If she needs something you can help, but you also want to help her get better and have a brighter future where she can be independent on her own.
    [X] Offer Rosie as much money as she might need to take care of her baby, you'll figure it out somehow
    [X] "You don't have to make any decisions right now, Rosie. Focus on getting healthy and staying that way, both for yourself and for the baby. That's the most important thing right now."
    -[X] "Whether you decide to keep her or find another home for her, you have options. There are resources, charities, and churches that can help. You wouldn't be the first young, unwed mother with a newborn baby and you won't be the last. And you've still got me. We'll figure something out, okay?"
    --[X] And while you don't mention it to Rosie, you resolve yourself to acquire the funds to support your friend and her baby, should it prove necessary.
    [X] Say nothing, just arrange for her to find a winning lottery ticket in a few months.
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Goldfish said:
Changing my vote to this one just to make sure we don't just promise to throw money at Rosie.

[X] First, she is going to focus on getting better.
-[X] Second, you're going to research the shit out of every charity and possible aid she can get. There are things out there, and you're part of a church that likely has plenty of connections for that.
-[X] Third, you are here for her. If all else fails, you will find ways to help and support her, and you can do a lot.
-[X] Ultimately though, she has to remember that you're here for her. You are not going to demand she rely on you. If she needs something you can help, but you also want to help her get better and have a brighter future where she can be independent on her own.
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goldfish is a monster he did say hes from the far realms though so I guess thats par for the course. :p
 
Eh. At least the mildly less bad version of that vote won. Silver linings I suppose.

DragonParadox said:
Ok so looking at the votes there seems to be a general consensus of help, but don't rush into things, which is also what the leading vote wants.
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Have you read the discussion? @DragonParadox I believe the consensus is to back out of providing help while offering token assistance to save face. Because it will consume too much AP, and teenage problems are boring and this is her own fault anyway for being a low willpower build.

At least thats what I got from the discussion.
 
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firefrog600 said:
I mean counterpoint most parents aren't ready and sure its kind of a fucked scenario realistically half the problems of parenthood have to do with money and time though as much as we say money doesn't fix things it sure as hell makes shit a lot easier.
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That isn't a counterpoint, it's equivocation.

Sure being fully prepared for everything is difficult, but there's a world of difference between not being prepared for all of it and not being prepared for any of it.

Rosie is a step below that, in that she's got issues to work through herself before she can get to the mental and emotional place where she can be ready for this.

There's nothing physically stopping people from ignoring this, but shit parenting has consequences.

Solving half her problems is like putting a cast on one of her two broken legs and asking her to run a marathon. The money's fantastic, but it doesn't actually help with a lot of things that matter here.
 
BronzeTongue said:
That isn't a counterpoint, it's equivocation.

Sure being fully prepared for everything is difficult, but there's a world of difference between not being prepared for all of it and not being prepared for any of it.

Rosie is a step below that, in that she's got issues to work through herself before she can get to the mental and emotional place where she can be ready for this.

There's nothing physically stopping people from ignoring this, but shit parenting has consequences.

Solving half her problems is like putting a cast on one of her two broken legs and asking her to run a marathon. The money's fantastic, but it doesn't actually help with a lot of things that matter here.
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Ah. Good old "money doesnt matter it's your fault you are poor and miserable."

Coupled with the equally reliable. "Money wont help people." "God will help people." "The free market will help people." And of course. "Someone else will help people."

Good old American middleclass standby.
 
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BronzeTongue said:
That isn't a counterpoint, it's equivocation.

Sure being fully prepared for everything is difficult, but there's a world of difference between not being prepared for all of it and not being prepared for any of it.

Rosie is a step below that, in that she's got issues to work through herself before she can get to the mental and emotional place where she can be ready for this.

There's nothing physically stopping people from ignoring this, but shit parenting has consequences.

Solving half her problems is like putting a cast on one of her two broken legs and asking her to run a marathon. The money's fantastic, but it doesn't actually help with a lot of things that matter here.
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I mean it gives her time to actually be there for a child, emotionally sure shes somewhat unstable, what actually makes them a bad parent for their child though as long as they aren't horrible and can support them? Like shes not a shit person shes stressed and money fixes most of the issues, adoption does not solve most there are horror stories for people who are never adopted and some stay in orphanages from a baby until adulthood, they are often not treated well in said environments as well.

no ones perfect and its not really our place to judge just to provide options and help our friend.
 
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firefrog600 said:
I mean it gives her time to actually be there for a child, emotionally sure shes somewhat unstable, what actually makes them a bad parent for their child though as long as they aren't horrible and can support them? Like shes not a shit person shes stressed and money fixes most of the issues, adoption does not solve most there are horror stories for people who are never adopted and some stay in orphanages from a baby until adulthood, they are often not treated well in said environments as well.

no ones perfect and its not really our place to judge just to provide options and help our friend.
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If I am not mistaken.

That is precisely the point he is trying to make though?

Bronze Tongue is saying that this situation is her fault. She deserves it. And that further attempts to assist her will result in her repeating this situation later down the line, except we will be out time, energy, and resources used to help her.

Which is both pretty heartless and shows possible real life experience with drug addicts given that's almost always how these things usually go.

Shrug* might just be imagining it though.
 
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Rosie doesn't need money right now. She needs emotional support to get her stable enough not to self-destruct in the short-term. She's currently quite fragile, and that's not even taking into account the ongoing impact her newly developed talent for divination might have on her already frayed psyche. Hopefully, that talent won't end up piling more shit on her plate. I don't think Rosie, as she is now, will be able to handle visions of bad stuff happening, especially now that we've confirmed to her that the events in her vision were real rather than a nightmare.

Money will be needed later, several months in the future.
 
Goldfish said:
Rosie doesn't need money right now. She needs emotional support to get her stable enough not to self-destruct in the short-term. She's currently quite fragile, and that's not even taking into account the ongoing impact her newly developed talent for divination might have on her already frayed psyche. Hopefully, that talent won't end up piling more shit on her plate. I don't think Rosie, as she is now, will be able to handle visions of bad stuff happening, especially now that we've confirmed to her that the events in her vision were real rather than a nightmare.

Money will be needed later, several months in the future.
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This is objectively true, but when I read it my mind tells me I'm reading.

"I dont care about this girl or her problems. I want to leave this dumb plot thread forever and go back to dragon motorcycles."
 
zxzx24 said:
Ah. Good old "money doesnt matter it's your fault you are poor and miserable."

Coupled with the equally reliable. "Money wont help people." "God will help people." "The free market will help people." And of course. "Someone else will help people."

Good old American middleclass standby.
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Could you not put words in my mouth?

Money does matter, it's incredibly important even. Dollar bills can't raise your kid for you though.

It's also not Rosie's fault that she's way too young for this responsibility and has her own issues outside of that. It's still true though, and needs dealt with.

My contention isn't that the money wouldn't help, it's that there are limits to how far it goes. Otherwise rich people would be saints because their parents could just spend money until their personalities improve.

If Rosie was a grown ass woman with the same financial problems this would be an entirely different conversation.

zxzx24 said:
If I am not mistaken.

That is precisely the point he is trying to make though?

Bronze Tongue is saying that this situation is her fault. She deserves it. And that further attempts to assist her will result in her repeating this situation later down the line.

Which is both pretty heartless and shows possible real life experience with drug addicts.
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No I am not. I haven't even come close to that.

Read what I'm writing and not the closed captioning on a Fox News broadcast.

This is about what the consequences of this situation are in the people involved and how to best address them. Rosie is a kid who should focus on growing up and recovering, and a baby needs more than she can give even with the cash to care for it.

We should help her, but that doesn't mean helping her dive off a cliff with her kid in her arms.
 
I'll just note chicago alone has around four thousand unadopted kids the country has over half a million. a little over a hundred and thirty thousand children are adopted in the u.s. each year around 60% are from this country, around 10% from parent to adoptee, and the rest are from other countries. Many many kids will never be adopted, not all will go to the best families for them, and there are many problems here.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Could you not put words in my mouth?

Money does matter, it's incredibly important even. Dollar bills can't raise your kid for you though.

It's also not Rosie's fault that she's way too young for this responsibility and has her own issues outside of that. It's still true though, and needs dealt with.

My contention isn't that the money wouldn't help, it's that there are limits to how far it goes. Otherwise rich people would be saints because their parents could just spend money until their personalities improve.

If Rosie was a grown ass woman with the same financial problems this would be an entirely different conversation.


No I am not. I haven't even come close to that.

Read what I'm writing and not the closed captioning on a Fox News broadcast.

This is about what the consequences of this situation are in the people involved and how to best address them. Rosie is a kid who should focus on growing up and recovering, and a baby needs more than she can give even with the cash to care for it.

We should help her, but that doesn't mean helping her dive off a cliff with her kid in her arms.
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in fairness the baby won't be born for several months, we can give support until then, also while sure most rich people can be shit parents thats on them, their work schedules ruining their moods and ability to be with their family. Now give this girl money and just ask her to be around and take care of the baby makes that far far far easier (is it enabling a bit? yeah. Do I give a shit? no we're a mother fucking exalted I'll buy a god damn island just to blow it up if I thought it was funny later) to not be a shit person when they can actually be around. Her child is not even close to guaranteed a good situation with adoption we can at least help in our own way here and money does in fact solve a lot of the problems later. Also her school life is fucking done people don't have a teenage pregnancy and go back to school and not expect to get fucked over by gossip and school counseling and other bullshit her life is objectively somewhat fucked in most school communities.
 
like honestly other than being a shit person if we give her the money and time to not have to work (or at least not work away from the kid) when taking care of said baby other than just being a shit person how does she fuck up having a baby? Plenty of mothers have been as young as her age is not the only qualifier for what ruins being a parent.
 
firefrog600 said:
like honestly other than being a shit person if we give her the money and time to not have to work (or at least not work away from the kid) when taking care of said baby other than just being a shit person how does she fuck up having a baby? Plenty of mothers have been as young as her age is not the only qualifier for what ruins being a parent.
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I'd like an awnser for this too honestly.
 
zxzx24 said:
This is objectively true, but when I read it my mind tells me I'm reading.

"I dont care about this girl or her problems. I want to leave this dumb plot thread forever and go back to dragon motorcycles."
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I would like nothing more than to give Rosie a briefcase full of money and never have to deal with her crap again. That's completely OOC, however, so I support Molly trying to help her friend, no matter how little I care for Rosie's situation.
firefrog600 said:
like honestly other than being a shit person if we give her the money and time to not have to work (or at least not work away from the kid) when taking care of said baby other than just being a shit person how does she fuck up having a baby? Plenty of mothers have been as young as her age is not the only qualifier for what ruins being a parent.
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People fuck up having babies all the time, dude. It's disgusting how often new parents, especially young, naive idiots who never bothered to take a parenting class, end up causing their infants serious medical issues through neglect, malnutrition, or ignorance.

And that's completely ignoring the issues that often come up with outright abuse or malice. "Shaken Baby Syndrome' is no joke, and kills infants every year, but there are plenty of examples of new parents harming their children. Not that I expect Rosie to do that, but your question was fairly broad.

A mother who neglects her own health during pregnancy can cause all sorts of issues for the unborn fetus. A prospective mother's poor eating habits, stress, vitamin deficiencies, drug-use, etc., all affect the baby. It can cause premature birth, birth defects, lifelong health issues, miscarriages, stillbirth, etc.

There is also the possibility of severe post-partum depression. That one is a real doozy, and it affects many women much more strongly than others. Women who were stable, healthy, and not otherwise emotionally compromised by black magic, fragile psyches, and the potential distress caused by uncontrollable visions of terrible events, have done pretty terrible things while suffering from severe, untreated post-partum depression, including suicide and infanticide.
 
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Goldfish said:
I would like nothing more than to give Rosie a briefcase full of money and never have to deal with her crap again. That's completely OOC, however, so I support Molly trying to help her friend, no matter how little I care for Rosie's situation.

People fuck up having babies all the time, dude. It's disgusting how often new parents, especially young, naive idiots who never bothered to take a parenting class, end up causing their infants serious medical issues through neglect, malnutrition, or ignorance.

And that's completely ignoring the issues that often come up with outright abuse or malice. "Shaken Baby Syndrome' is no joke, and kills infants every year, but there are plenty of examples of new parents harming their children. Not that I expect Rosie to do that, but your question was fairly broad.

A mother who neglects her own health during pregnancy can cause all sorts of issues for the unborn fetus. A prospective mother's poor eating habits, stress, vitamin deficiencies, drug-use, etc., all affect the baby. It can cause premature birth, birth defects, lifelong health issues, miscarriages, stillbirth, etc.

There is also the possibility of severe post-partum depression. That one is a real doozy, and if affects many of women much more strongly than others. Women who were stable, healthy, and not otherwise emotionally compromised by black magic, fragile psyches, and the potential distress caused by uncontrollable visions of terrible events, have done pretty terrible things while suffering from severe, untreated post-partum depression, including suicide infanticide.
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Cool. This is actually somewhat comforting. I genuinely believed the vote was an attempt to duck the scenario instead of doing something, but it looks like you did due diligence and beyond.

Shame these specific notions didnt make it into the vote but I digress.

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Though while nice. I would still like to hear from Bronzetongue.

Since while your argument has been on the basis of her needing to be well to effectively care for another. He has mostly focused on her... abilities. As a mother. Namely being a very bad one. In spite of us knowing very little of what's going through her mind right now, or what she knows.
 
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