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Kingdom of God: A Quest of Holy Revolution

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[X] We must bring up the fallen, and break down the walls of iniquity wherever we may see it, for evil resides not just in Vaspukaran! [Iconoclast and Confessor position].

Overreach? Madness? Perhaps. But if you see evil, then it is yur duty to fight it. Everywhere, everytime.
 
[X] We must bring up the fallen, and break down the walls of iniquity wherever we may see it, for evil resides not just in Vaspukaran! [Iconoclast and Confessor position].

If it's good enough for the Iconoclasts and Confessors it's good enough for me!
 
[X] We must bring up the fallen, and break down the walls of iniquity wherever we may see it, for evil resides not just in Vaspukaran! [Iconoclast and Confessor position].
 
[X] We must bring up the fallen, and break down the walls of iniquity wherever we may see it, for evil resides not just in Vaspukaran! [Iconoclast and Confessor position].
 
Cavalier said:
But that being said, the mad dreams of conquest of High Confession and the Infallible Patriarchs are anathema.
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Correct as this this is in the scope of High Confessional interpretation, but the option to seek redress against iniquity across the world is not only a Confessor option for a reason. There are, as you already know, ways to not leave those fighting for liberation worldwide to their fates without stooping into committing wars of conquests that the Infallible Patriarchs aspired to, & without initiating open warfare between the Four Eyes & those aspiring to break into their ranks.

Deadly Snark said:
We gain nothing by moving out with our armies and fleets anymore. Yet the Game of Nations requires that we grow our influence.
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Hmm I think the Iconoclast-Confessor option might be more amenable to this kind of sort-of Cold War geopolitical playbook since the Amalist option sounds much more indirect due to the self-imposed limitation of peaceful geopolitics? Granted I don't count say, arming liberatory movements abroad as a peaceful act & you may be interpreting anything short of proxy war as within bounds of peaceful interstate relations.
 
[X] We must spread the word of God to the world with vigor but with peace, so that the world will hear our message clearly! [Amalist Position].

Truly, is this not already our doctrine?

Cetashwayo said:
Dimmer in some creatures, brighter than others, this fire was the blaze of conscious thought that propelled humanity to dominion. In the state of creation, humanity lived free, and naked, and bare, but as they ate fully from the fruit of knowledge so did they absorb the illuminating ambitions of civilization, but with it also the darkness of domination.

Seeking to enter heaven on their own terms, and prove themselves worthy to God, humanity constructed a great spire with machines. But the demands of its construction made demands of the flesh and soul of its builders, and the evil of slavery was created, a path by which to compel labour to act against its own will to sacral ends. God looked upon the spire its masters called divine, and saw only a pyramid of skulls, and found humanity unworthy of His light. From this is the originating sin: that man enslaved man, and so denied themselves to heaven by their own hubris. God toppled the spire, and scattered humanity as stars were scattered across the sky. Given only fragments of the Truth, and with God's revelation obscured from them, the souls of man were given the first commandment: To rebuild the spiral of Truth, not by blood, but by love.
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Cetashwayo said:
Truths of Light and Darkness (Tier I): An argument from first principles that light and darkness are not just metaphysical but social principles that derive from material conditions, and that altering them requires altering the conditions and society which fosters them.
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The Spiral has always been haunted by the specters of domination and machine-enlightenment, and we see now that these ancient sins come into our world through social obfuscations and hard material realities. If we are to break apart these lies that keep us from God, we cannot do it with the dark's own tools. Our strength must be tempered with love and restraint.
 
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[X] We must spread the word of God to the world with vigor but with peace, so that the world will hear our message clearly! [Amalist Position].

People on the receiving end of 'humanitarian invasion' are traditionally not thrilled about it.
 
[X] We must bring up the fallen, and break down the walls of iniquity wherever we may see it, for evil resides not just in Vaspukaran! [Iconoclast and Confessor position]

 
Oh yes intervening in other countries, arming the "good guys" who coincidentally are always the ones favorable to our interests, crusading to overthrow evil governments and replace them with new ones in our image, how could this go wrong? Leaving aside of course that being a militant threat to other countries tends to spawn war and war is by far the greatest threat to a revolution; either simply by defeat at the hands of a coalition or from the rise of a military dictatorship, or the hardening of the State to the demands of war along authoritarian lines. Vaspukaran should readily engage with the world, and provide its example while taking back the best of what we find there, but imposing enlightenment on other countries by force will be resisted by force and practically invites an arrogant conflation of "the Good" with "what is good for our country."
 
[X] We must spread the word of God to the world with vigor but with peace, so that the world will hear our message clearly! [Amalist Position].
 
Cavalier said:
Oh yes intervening in other countries, arming the "good guys" who coincidentally are always the ones favorable to our interests, crusading to overthrow evil governments and replace them with new ones in our image, how could this go wrong? Leaving aside of course that being a militant threat to other countries tends to spawn war and war is by far the greatest threat to a revolution; either simply by defeat at the hands of a coalition or from the rise of a military dictatorship, or the hardening of the State to the demands of war along authoritarian lines. Vaspukaran should readily engage with the world, and provide its example while taking back the best of what we find there, but imposing enlightenment on other countries by force will be resisted by force and practically invites an arrogant conflation of "the Good" with "what is good for our country."
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If there was a major rebellion against bondage, such as it is found in the serfdom that permeates the South of Vaspukaran or any adjacent-slavery what do you propose we do? Stay our hands, and let the enserfed die, or discreetly provide them deniable support while avoiding outright warfare between Vaspukaran & the involved state? I will note that certain interpretation of the very option you voted for could be justified for helping liberatory movements abroad, it is only the traditional Pugilist option which is hard to recontextualize into it. edit: beyond humanitarian non-armament aid IMO...which is not gonna help much if they have no reliable source of arms and/or no other benefactor.

Potato Anarchy said:
Notably I think it is actively impossible for any doctrine to turn Pugilists into actual pacifists. None of these options mean passivity in the face of evil. That will never be who we are.
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Yeah, it's why I'm still considering what to vote since the Amalist option could be justified for a wide latitude of not-really-peaceful actions which are within the bounds of "peaceful international relations"
 
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Cavalier said:
Oh yes intervening in other countries, arming the "good guys" who coincidentally are always the ones favorable to our interests, crusading to overthrow evil governments and replace them with new ones in our image, how could this go wrong? Leaving aside of course that being a militant threat to other countries tends to spawn war and war is by far the greatest threat to a revolution; either simply by defeat at the hands of a coalition or from the rise of a military dictatorship, or the hardening of the State to the demands of war along authoritarian lines. Vaspukaran should readily engage with the world, and provide its example while taking back the best of what we find there, but imposing enlightenment on other countries by force will be resisted by force and practically invites an arrogant conflation of "the Good" with "what is good for our country."
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I know that. You know that. My character does not know that.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Warning: The section you are about to read has more than twice the recommended daily dose of worldbuilding. Consult with your local fantasy writer if this post is right for you.
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Ahh, yeah. That's the stuff.

[X] We must bring up the fallen, and break down the walls of iniquity wherever we may see it, for evil resides not just in Vaspukaran! [Iconoclast and Confessor position].

Peaceful preaching is critical, and the hesitance about violence is understandable. But if we get converts or allies abroad, they will be in much the same situation as us. They, too, will have to back up their doctrines of liberation with force. I think it's best to just be candid with ourselves about that. We'll obviously have to be careful about how we deploy violence, but we were going to be careful about that anyway.
 
[X] We must be a beacon unto the nations, set an exemplar for all to follow, and not be entangled in outside schemes! [Traditional Pugilist Position].

We're pugilist so of course I'll take the Traditional position. Also jeez the original Author does not like the cold and I can't blame him I lived up north and got tired of it as well.
 
Regency said:
If there was a major rebellion against bondage, such as it is found in the serfdom that permeates the South of Vaspukaran or any adjacent-slavery what do you propose we do? Stay our hands, and let the enserfed die, or discreetly provide them deniable support while avoiding outright warfare between Vaspukaran & the involved state? I will note that certain interpretation of the very option you voted for could be justified for helping liberatory movements abroad, it is only the traditional Pugilist option which is hard to recontextualize into it.


Yeah, it's why I'm still considering what to vote since the Amalist option could be justified for a wide latitude of not-really-peaceful actions which are within the bounds of "peaceful international relations"
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I do not want to give sanction to an ideological turn that could justify starting wars for the sake of spreading the Revolution or taking an open-ended idea that "Evil" represents deviation from whatever theopolitical alignment Vaspukaran winds up with. Invading other countries to pursue "liberation" and "enlightenment" will tend to not only fail but actually harm both concepts. And it will make the job of opponents of both much easier if they can point to any local movement as being tied inextricably to Vaspukaran and paint any opposition as treason in favor of another country.

That said nothing is an absolute. Aiding a slave revolt with arms and money is well within the scope of the actions of citizens from any sympathetic country, of which there are more than just Vaspukaran who abhor slavery. If some of those citizens have surprisingly deep pockets and close connections to arms manufacturers well so be it. A parallel governmental approach would be to find diplomatic common-ground with other powers opposed to slavery and apply diplomatic and economic pressure, perhaps even a joint intervention - but notably not a unilateral crusade by Vaspukaran alone on the grounds that fighting Evil justifies invading other countries.
 
[X] We must be a beacon unto the nations, set an exemplar for all to follow, and not be entangled in outside schemes! [Traditional Pugilist Position].
 
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Cavalier said:
That said nothing is an absolute. Aiding a slave revolt with arms and money is well within the scope of the actions of citizens from any sympathetic country, of which there are more than just Vaspukaran who abhor slavery. If some of those citizens have surprisingly deep pockets and close connections to arms manufacturers well so be it. A parallel governmental approach would be to find diplomatic common-ground with other powers opposed to slavery and apply diplomatic and economic pressure, perhaps even a joint intervention - but notably not a unilateral crusade by Vaspukaran alone on the grounds that fighting Evil justifies invading other countries.
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Hm, this is contradictory to your abhorring of interventionism, as this framing is essentially only a thin veil covering for Vaspukaran to commit said acts of interventionism. I will note though that we appear to be in accord over the potential of not-so-peaceful actions which could be sanctioned by the Amalist doctrine. However, a joint intervention is a step too far to the idea of "peaceful yet active geopolitics" which the Amalist option is going for & sounds more in line with the Iconoclast-Confessor option.

(Yes I'm still contemplating on which to vote)
 
All the options are extremely broad declarations of ideals rather than concrete policies. But the Iconoclast and Confessor option places the emphasis on Vaspukaran as the agent in fighting Evil in the world. It's not possible to stick to peace alone in an anarchic system of states, but an ideal that places the stress on unilaterally being able to define Evil and justify going abroad to fight it promotes a much more aggressive stance. The Amalist option seems to me more about engaging with the world through means other than violence as an ideal, not swearing off violence in all circumstances.
 
[X] We must spread the word of God to the world with vigor but with peace, so that the world will hear our message clearly! [Amalist Position].

See now the power at our fingers, the largest and most populous nation of the shattered spire, we have the potential to bring to bear the great industries of the future and flood the lands with goods and messages extoling the virtues of Amalgast. With ever greater revelations brought to us, we can turn outwards and find those who would be enlightened and bring them to an alliance against the Mare and the Coven.
 
I do think given everything foreign involvement in our revolution in some way is likely. It would be nice if we could just worry about all the factions in Vaspukaran but every historical revolution has had to deal with the wider world; France wound up exporting the revolution, there was foreign intervention in the Russian Civil War, even the Mexican Revolution drew in American involvement, and other revolutions have succeeded or failed due to foreign support. Having a coherent foreign policy is going to be necessary, since any of these things could happen to us.
 
I think it would be fucking nice if people stopped equating "Hey maybe rampant crusading across the world is not actually a net good for anyone" as "We should be cowards who never do anything".

Vasp is a country its first priority must and will always be its own people and it own interests. Crusading around the world is the Madness of High confession brought alive again, only this time it pretends its better because "we are not technically conquering them", and will bring about the same overreach that led to Sword-Altar rightfully overthrowing the Infallibles.
 
Cetashwayo said:
The peoples here of a unique make and are especially suited in Firanhj for the cold.
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*are of
Cetashwayo said:
Such coldness tends to make them emotional and ferocious, with hotter blood too compensate, at the expense of rationality.
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*to compensate
Cetashwayo said:
It is these four titans who bestride the remnants of the spire and encompass the hipe to unite it once again.
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*hope
Cetashwayo said:
No country is greater in population, no country is larger than size.
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*in size
Cetashwayo said:
It may be called the first truly Spiral power, that bestrides the world, and not, as we wished, ourselves."
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I know that he's saying that the Mare is the first Spiral power instead of Vaspukaran, but I'm just going to point out that this can also be parsed as "god I wish the Mare would bestride me."
Cetashwayo said:
Samagan's Notes: "Tsakharia is an angry mountain man who has carved out a fiefdom for himself and shall not let any take it save by his cold dead hands as a country. An excess of male enthusiasm is the likely diagnosis for the constant enragement of this place which hates the Domains so badly."
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Lmfao at Samangan diagnosing an entire country with testosterone poisoning. Also, *Samangan
Cetashwayo said:
Samangan's Notes: "It would surely be a nightmare if we were to grant self-government to the Minyan Communions, and say, let them create court tabernacles or something of the sort in their own lands. What a terrible suggestion, that will gain no leeway, surely!"
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I do love his sarcastic commentary.
Cetashwayo said:
Fanjakan Rajemisa. The Fanjakan has been one of the fastest rises of recent memory. An isolationist monarchy defeated forty years ago by the Mare, the Rajemesa Dynasty of queens has unified all parts off-coast archipelago and transformed into a great new naval power. Deeply fascinated by the Mare, the Fanjakan has allied itself to its former enemy, and now extends its reach southeast. Using newly discovered routes and coaling stations they expand their power power into the frontier of Aurura and make war with the fleets of Hadashtai, recently shocking all outsiders by defeating Hadashtai at Tontokin and opening its territories to foreign trade. Under the Rajemisa Queens, the Fanjaken glorifies their power and maintains a strong adherence to the law, but denies the divisions of sympolity or the conceptions of blood reign, preferring instead to raise on merit especially women of meager standing to positions of high government.

Samangan's Notes: "This country is a surprise, and an example of how one should not discount peoples on the basis of inferiority. The ingenuity and focus of the Rajemisans is something to behold, and something to emulate, for how fast they have risen to the ranks of the great."
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Meiji Japan? Is that you?
Cetashwayo said:
I know it is a subtle thing, difficult to spot without expert interpredation."
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*interpretation
Cetashwayo said:
In the Evar Taiga, the purest examples of the old Firanhj before the conquests of Merovanj still persist in boreal forest, whilst on the savanna of Golgaria tsarsand princes fight the Ummat, the Perpetuity, and most of all each other for dominance.
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*tsars and princes
Cetashwayo said:
If Vaspukaran is simply first a great multitude of nations, how should it show itself to be the greatest of countries?
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*first in a
Cetashwayo said:
[] We must bring up the fallen, and break down the walls of iniquity wherever we may see it, for evil resides not just in Vaspukaran! [Iconoclast and Confessor position].
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Team Vaspukaran: World Police.

[X] We must spread the word of God to the world with vigor but with peace, so that the world will hear our message clearly! [Amalist Position].
 
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[X] We must bring up the fallen, and break down the walls of iniquity wherever we may see it, for evil resides not just in Vaspukaran! [Iconoclast and Confessor position].

Fist. Jaw of evil.
 
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