Kingdom of God: A Quest of Holy Revolution

[X] Shadows Below the Pedestal. On the falsely laid expectations of the husband and wife, and the burdens they do bring.
[X] The Overbearing fruits of the Flagging Tree. On the overbearing abundance of children, and the men who do not help.
[X] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to trascend her local origins.
[X] Ravhood. Vashti is a Rav, whose righteousness substitutes for study! [Available because of your Fundament Sayings of Guru Myriam].
[X] Disavowal. Vashti is not a prophet, for the age of prophecy has ended, and the time of personalism must be put to the side in favour of the order of ordinary souls [Available due to Light and Darkness doctrine + Pugilist alignment]

Cassiemouse said:

God sees the suffering of his people and hears them cry out under the yoke of evil. Why would those pleas not reach the ears of God? Can he not be moved by our plight? Can he not speak in our hearts and guide us towards the path we should take in this modern age?

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Agreed, I think Elevation as the nature of Maryan Vashti's prophethood is not mutually exclusive to the legitimacy of God-given prophetic revelation as it occurred in the world where the Kingdom of God resides. As I've said above:

Regency said:

I also like it as making the IMO de facto implicit requirement for proving prophethood originating from liberatory movements into a de jure part of her "orthodoxy".

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To be blunt, the blessed momentum of prophets' movement, even after they are martyred, has been historically seen as temporal proof of God-given prophethood.

Edit: There's a reason Vashti's called a failed prophet, but even so her prophethood was confirmed by way of Amalgast's rise & his prophetic movement's acknowledgement of her influence.

Edit2: I know Elevation's an entirely new innovation (the Transmigration principle created by the 2nd Patriarchate also was one, but I digress ), but I really do think it's legitimizes the historical trend of temporal acknowledgement for God-given prophethood. Especially in the style of Amalgast & perhaps Yuhwa.

Cavalier said:

Was Bambinisan Vashti not a prophet because the masses of Barbarek were so wicked they rejected her?

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This is not the reason for her prophethood. To quote:

Cetashwayo said:

The last prophet was the Prophet was not to be. Bambisnan Vashti was the first prophet of the oppressed, the prophet of the Vasp. 1,600 years ago, under the domination of the Malekate the whole Hadit river valley had been conquered and subjugated. A vast empire of slaves ruled by freemen worshiping Muktarram the demonic Bull of Hell. The Malekate placed the ancestors of the Vasp who had migrated down from the hills into chains on their frontiers, and visited evil on all. Forced to be Queen of Basbarak, the Bambisnan Vashti was visited by God to grant the last chance for salvation to the wicked of the Malekate. She preached the doctrine of freedom, and would have accelerated the climb of the Spiral of Truth by thousands of years. But the Malek of Babarak did not hear her, his own wife, and he wrung her neck and put her followers to death. At this, God wept for losing a beloved daughter, and from his tears came the flood, an infamous day, 823 years Before Ascension. The whole of the Hadit River Valley was washed away by the deluge of the ancient glacial Lake Mutawilli, and its civilization eradicated.

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And another of how it isn't "wicked masses" so much as wicked elites, in Bambisnan Vashti's tears:

Cetashwayo said:

There are no holy days for this is the season of the flood and the season of God's judgment. 1,645 years ago, 823 years before Amalgast's ascension, God sent the greatest of all flood to wash away Babarak. These rains are thus the Bambisnan Vashti's Tears, the symbol of her enduring love for the people below and the echo of her final wrath for the people above.

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Nor was it the Fundament by way which the HaKhofshim, or even Vaspukaran at large sees why the flood was sent. Vaspukaran believers in God specifically saw it as the consequences of ruling class atrocity impacting the rest of society. This is even evident in the Nachivan news media in the way they illustrated Sword-Altar.

Or as Cetashwayo explained better than me:

Cetashwayo said:

When God's Own pictured Vaspukaran being strangled by Sword-Altar back in Enemies of God the implication was not just that this is a woman being strangled by a man but that if sword-altar does they will unleash the flood of vengeance on them and kill everybody.

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[X] Elevation. Vashti is a prophet only insofar as she has been elevated by the people of the Ischak, and as such she is granted greater access to the Spiral of Truth by her elevation! [Available as a syncretic option of Transmigration + Accelerant + Pugilist origin].

[X] The Binding Ring of Marriage. On the inviolability which soils the sanctity of marriage, and the prison it may build.
[X] The Double-Toil of the Back-Broke Bima. On the special demands of working women, those who are slaves within the home.
[X] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to transcend her local origins.
[X] Incarnation. Vashti is an incarnation of the original Prophet Vashti! [Available because of your Fundament Transmigration].
[X] Elevation. Vashti is a prophet only insofar as she has been elevated by the people of the Ischak, and as such she is granted greater access to the Spiral of Truth by her elevation! [Available as a syncretic option of Transmigration + Accelerant + Pugilist origin].

[X] The Double-Toil of the Back-Broke Bima. On the special demands of working women, those who are slaves within the home.

[X] The Binding Ring of Marriage. On the inviolability which soils the sanctity of marriage, and the prison it may build.

[X] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to trascend her local origins.

[X] Elevation. Vashti is a prophet only insofar as she has been elevated by the people of the Ischak, and as such she is granted greater access to the Spiral of Truth by her elevation! [Available as a syncretic option of Transmigration + Accelerant + Pugilist origin].
[X] Disavowal. Vashti is not a prophet, for the age of prophecy has ended, and the time of personalism must be put to the side in favour of the order of ordinary souls [Available due to Light and Darkness doctrine + Pugilist alignment].

Vashti was a prophet because God spoke Himself to her and revealed Truth. It is for the same reason that Rip Tang Goo, and Yuhwa, and Amalgast are prophets. God alone determines who is and is not a prophet. Not the High Priests, not Meliks, not Gurus and Sages and not the votes of Mouflons. To claim otherwise is insane heresy that substitutes a false idol for the direct revelation of God.

These denunciations of "personalism" proclaim that the prophets were liars. That they spoke falsely and usurped the masses on speaking truth. And if their claims to personal revelation are false why should anyone believe anything else they Revealed?

Of course there have been no Prophets since Amalgast, and perhaps there will be none. Perhaps the workings out of the Spiral in time through human reason is now sufficient to reveal the truth and illuminate all of mankind. In which case there is no need for Prophets and God will not send them again. But we cannot say for certain. What can be said is that no Prophet will ever emerge without the direct selection by God, and any doctrine that would confuse that simple principle is a backward step in the Spiral.

Cavalier said:

Vashti was a prophet because God spoke Himself to her and revealed Truth. It is for the same reason that Rip Tang Goo, and Yuhwa, and Amalgast are prophets. God alone determines who is and is not a prophet. Not the High Priests, not Meliks, not Gurus and Sages and not the votes of Mouflons. To claim otherwise is insane heresy that substitutes a false idol for the direct revelation of God.

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God speaks to Mouflons as He does everyone else. That some souls are elevated by God to spread His truth is undeniable, that this has to be the domain of a few persons rather than a group very much isn't. Who are you to limit God in such a way? The Ischak Revolt has been the harbinger of the Deluge and our liberation. Would you deny the hand of God in this? In this the people of the Ischak speak with God's voice, and we ought to listen.

Cavalier said:

These denunciations of "personalism" proclaim that the prophets were liars. That they spoke falsely and usurped the masses on speaking truth. And if their claims to personal revelation are false why should anyone believe anything else they Revealed?

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Nobody has claimed this, and you do us insult by saying so. But recognizing Prophecy only in an individual Prophet is a crutch that has to be leaped past in time, just as Sufgar's naive veneration of the Simurgh was. The Analects are Revelation, but they are flawed, as all things must be until we reach the heart of the Spiral. This is our most basic theology. Prophecy can be True and incomplete all the same.

Cavalier said:

Of course there have been no Prophets since Amalgast, and perhaps there will be none. Perhaps the workings out of the Spiral in time through human reason is now sufficient to reveal the truth and illuminate all of mankind. In which case there is no need for Prophets and God will not send them again. But we cannot say for certain. What can be said is that no Prophet will ever emerge without the direct selection by God, and any doctrine that would confuse that simple principle is a backward step in the Spiral.

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Again, would you deny the hand of God in the rebellion of the Ischak? The appearance of that righteous liberatory movement is proof of God's selection. It is ever God that free us, through mortal hands.

I've added my voice to the call for Elevation. While it isn't my preferred option, a prophet anointed by the people is preferable to any other kind of prophet.

[X] The Binding Ring of Marriage. On the inviolability which soils the sanctity of marriage, and the prison it may build.
[X] The Double-Toil of the Back-Broke Bima. On the special demands of working women, those who are slaves within the home.

Arguing for the ability to escape from dangerous, unpleasant, dangerous, and/or simply failing marriages is a lot more practical than the other options and is also probably the biggest leap of the three options available. We're attacking the expectations of marriage here, making something less permanent rather than simply trying to modify behavior within the sphere of marriage. Similarly focusing on the double dosing of work that is asked of women in particular is a much broader attack on expectations within society than either of the other two. Both talk about fundamental aspects of society that have remained 'unchanged,' or so at least people will imagine, for generations and that I think fits within our choice to focus on upending the Old Order.

[X] With Acuity. Vashti should cautiously build alliances with those outside of the Ischak, in particular in the capital of Nachivan and the Sanhedron.
Vashti is facing resistance close to home, and already has plenty of enemies farther afield; the forces which gave rise to Origination are hardly dead and they have to see Ischak in particular as a symbol of all that went wrong for them, when they push back again, or even just if other hungry eyes turn towards Ischak Vashti will need allies. But to ask her to position herself and Ischak at the forefront of a broader movement seems a step to far to me, especially as Vashti herself has never really voiced thoughts in that direction so far as we have seen. If someone is going to take up the cause they should do it because they believe in it, not just to protect themselves.

She finishes her letter to HaKhofshim asking for books, so she might develope in that direction on her own. Or not.

Edit: might as well approval vote my preferences as well.
[X] Ravhood. Vashti is a Rav, whose righteousness substitutes for study! [Available because of your Fundament Sayings of Guru Myriam].
[X] Prophecy. Vashti is a prophet, and must conceal herself! [Available because of your Fundament Amalgast the Accelerant].

This is the option I feel more comfortable with.

Part of me is tempted by Elevation and Disavowal, but another greater part is make slightly uncomfortable with the mixing of religious/divine revelation with popular support and the investment of political power. It seems a position ripe for abuse and the rise of new evils. Being a prophet or some sort of saint or the like is powerful enough. At the same time, I think denying the notion that sometimes individuals do have special insight or inspiration is another misstep; Great Men (or women, or... ) do not move history solely, but they do often prove to be levers upon which history moves, whether by serving as the focal points of movements, inspiration for those movements, or innovators with unique expressions of knowledge.

[X] The Binding Ring of Marriage. On the inviolability which soils the sanctity of marriage, and the prison it may build.
[X] The Double-Toil of the Back-Broke Bima. On the special demands of working women, those who are slaves within the home.
[X] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to transcend her local origins.
[X] Elevation. Vashti is a prophet only insofar as she has been elevated by the people of the Ischak, and as such she is granted greater access to the Spiral of Truth by her elevation! [Available as a syncretic option of Transmigration + Accelerant + Pugilist origin].

I realize, Santsarran's recent declaration that Amalgast's companions have also been reborn to help him rule is exactly the theological precedent we need to get Vashti declared an Incarnation herself.

[X] The Binding Ring of Marriage. On the inviolability which soils the sanctity of marriage, and the prison it may build.
[X] The Double-Toil of the Back-Broke Bima. On the special demands of working women, those who are slaves within the home.
[X] With Acuity. Vashti should cautiously build alliances with those outside of the Ischak, in particular in the capital of Nachivan and the Sanhedron.
[X] Ravhood. Vashti is a Rav, whose righteousness substitutes for study! [Available because of your Fundament Sayings of Guru Myriam].

[X] The Binding Ring of Marriage. On the inviolability which soils the sanctity of marriage, and the prison it may build.
[X] The Double-Toil of the Back-Broke Bima. On the special demands of working women, those who are slaves within the home.
[X] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to transcend her local origins.
[X] Elevation. Vashti is a prophet only insofar as she has been elevated by the people of the Ischak, and as such she is granted greater access to the Spiral of Truth by her elevation! [Available as a syncretic option of Transmigration + Accelerant + Pugilist origin].

ScottishMongol said:

I realize, Santsarran's recent declaration that Amalgast's companions have also been reborn to help him rule is exactly the theological precedent we need to get Vashti declared an Incarnation herself.

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Yeah, I also think it would be the logical conclusion to our sect doctrine as well. Since Amalgast can transmigrate his soul while also not different than other prophets. Then it is only logical that other prophets can also transmigrate their souls as well. The fact that current official line is that even his companion can transmigrate, it would be even that much heterodox.

Also, I don't think the choice between Incarnation and Elevation is that mutually exclusive? Since, our transmigration doctrine is about how the soul of Amalgast can be transmigrate to the body of the Patriarchs by the election already. So in this case, we can just say Vashti is an incarnation of the prophet because she has been elevated by the people.

[X] The Binding Ring of Marriage. On the inviolability which soils the sanctity of marriage, and the prison it may build.
[X] The Incharity of Man and the Woe of Woman. On the inequalities in wage and respect that pull women to the darkness.
[X] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to trascend her local origins.
[X] Incarnation. Vashti is an incarnation of the original Prophet Vashti! [Available because of your Fundament Transmigration].

One possible resolution to the question of prophets in elevation is that the prophets already exist and their election is proof of their prophecy. A kind of pre destined position. Of a certain elect.

[X] The Binding Ring of Marriage. On the inviolability which soils the sanctity of marriage, and the prison it may build.
[X] The Incharity of Man and the Woe of Woman. On the inequalities in wage and respect that pull women to the darkness.
[X] With Candor. Vashti should move to build a much larger movement for the peasantry beyond the Ischak, and use her stature to trascend her local origins.
[X] Incarnation. Vashti is an incarnation of the original Prophet Vashti! [Available because of your Fundament Transmigration].
[X] Ravhood. Vashti is a Rav, whose righteousness substitutes for study! [Available because of your Fundament Sayings of Guru Myriam].

Pempelune said:

God speaks to Mouflons as He does everyone else. That some souls are elevated by God to spread His truth is undeniable, that this has to be the domain of a few persons rather than a group very much isn't. Who are you to limit God in such a way? The Ischak Revolt has been the harbinger of the Deluge and our liberation. Would you deny the hand of God in this? In this the people of the Ischak speak with God's voice, and we ought to listen.

Nobody has claimed this, and you do us insult by saying so. But recognizing Prophecy only in an individual Prophet is a crutch that has to be leaped past in time, just as Sufgar's naive veneration of the Simurgh was. The Analects are Revelation, but they are flawed, as all things must be until we reach the heart of the Spiral. This is our most basic theology. Prophecy can be True and incomplete all the same.

Again, would you deny the hand of God in the rebellion of the Ischak? The appearance of that righteous liberatory movement is proof of God's selection. It is ever God that free us, through mortal hands.

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That anyone may be chosen to be a prophet does not mean that the collective everyone is a prophet. It is within the power of an omnipotent God to make everyone a prophet. It is also within the power of an omnipotent God to turn you, specifically, into a purple mouse. And yet there is no reason to believe that God will turn you into a purple mouse. Likewise there is no reason to believe that mere election by believers is sufficient to make one a Prophet. We have seen how God reveals His prophets with miracles and divine truths in the personage of individuals. There is no reason to imagine that He has changed His mind, unless perhaps you claim to have had a revelation from Him?

As for the arrogation being attempted here we have heard brothers and sisters speak of how prophecy is obsolete, that heeding the words of a prophet is inferior to discovery of the truth via the masses, of how it is a "flaw" that Revelation came by the means that God chose. How can that be anything more than gross confusion of the metaphor of God speaking to His children with the very specific fact of prophecy? How is it within our power to declare that God cannot or should not make use of individual Prophets, the "personalism" decried previously? That is to reject the words of God as delivered by His prophets, no matter what sophistry is used to disguise it.

The hand of God in any case may appear in many things but unless He has spoken directly and literally to this Vashti and revealed to her new truths then she is not a prophet, no matter how many would acclaim her one.

OOC thoughts on Elevation:
Prophethood is very, very powerful. We've seen that with Santsarran, a big part of his power is not his political power, but the credit he gets every time he puts on the Death Mask of Amalgast. As we saw with all the paranoia about San, it's a very dangerous power to put in the hands of one person. Elevation would democratize that power, and that's based.
Also, I love it because it's Pugilist as fuck. The guiding characteristic of Pugilism compared to the other schisms is how unapologetically populist it is: equating Prophecy with the will of the people is very much up our alley.

That the Prophets exist is a divine and historical fact. Just as much that the Sword-Altar was evil is a divine historical fact, and God created all things. To go "We should end the age of Prophets and the age of Personalism" is sheer arrogance. Our duty is to accept that truth and use it to advance on the spiral.

The Prophets that have existed have done all they can to make the world better. There has been nothing wrong with them. To deny them is to shut one's eyes to reality. Amalgast has stumbled in the centuries, because the Holy Ghost has spent 400 years tireless doing back-breaking labor like a Mouflon.

When a Mouflon injures himself working in the field because he is the only one working, the solution is to not blame the Mouflon. Claiming that the toiling peasant is obsolete, that the High Priests should take the lands and implement a new more efficient system. The solution is not to give that Mouflon's land away to the village to be divided into tiny little pieces of land that will produce nothing. But instead, talk to his family and get his loved ones to help him more. This is what has been done with the Sanhedron and the Seven, and this is what is being done with the Incarnation of Vashti.

OOC Elevation also elevates the acclamation of an individual by populist masses above all legal restraints and institutions. That includes the Sanhedron. The answer to the authority of prophethood being dangerous is not to make more prophets but to set it aside as irrelevant unless a Prophet appears, and to dismiss the efficacy of patriarchal authority to such status. Which is the Iconoclastic position I believe.

Iconoclasts tend to be deeply split between a form of non-prophetic Elevation and disavowal. You could see this play out in World Turned Upside Down, where Oshana attacked fellow Iconoclasts for erecting a person of the Antipatriarch rather than suggesting the antipatriarch is more like a spirit of the general will.

Cetashwayo said:

One possible resolution to the question of prophets in elevation is that the prophets already exist and their election is proof of their prophecy. A kind of pre destined position. Of a certain elect.

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Ahhh, so this summarizes far better than I did why I think Elevation is not mutually exclusive with God-given prophecy. Because materially (in the sense of in contrast to the spiritual), absent knowledge of God's contact with their prophets, acclamation by the flock of each prophets' time could be interpreted as material proof of their prophethood.

It's roughly similar to how some practicing Muslims interpret the fact that Prophet Muhammad (saw) was one of many prophetic claimants in Arabia; his liberatory Ummah's victory is retroactive proof of his prophethood.

Moreover, we believe in Amalgast the Accelerant, so opting for Elevation (edit: a synthesis of our Accelerant & Transmigration Fundaments) is equally as legitimate to our principles as Incarnation is (edit2: which is in line with the Transmigration Fundament)

Cavalier said:

The answer to the authority of prophethood being dangerous is not to make more prophets but to set it aside as irrelevant unless a Prophet appears, and to dismiss the efficacy of patriarchal authority to such status. Which is the Iconoclastic position I believe.

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Nah, considering the Anti-Patriarchs mainstream Iconoclasts would very well opt for prophethood, while those Political Iconoclasts aligned with Oshana would lean more to Disavowal.

(yes I know the QM ninja'd me)

OOC: Fucking seriously guys.

I understand the desire for Democracy. But Elevation is actually kind of terrible for Vasp right now. The Legitimacy and fundamental foundations of the Vasp institutions is literally fucking built on Prophethood. Its not the best system, but it has failed yet.

Prophethood through popular support literally takes a hammer to the knees of that entire system. You are basically doing the equivalent of arguing of "the votes are fake" and "the voting system is broken" and "so the people should simply proclaim their leaders through populism", which ends with guns and a sword.

If you wanna implement more democratic reforms, Incarnation is the path to go. Because it does not simply go through the motions of popular support, in that it looks like democracy. But actually introduces more democratic elements into Vasp's institutions neatly in a way that fits into their beliefs and traditions. That is how you do reforms, not breaking shit with the sledgehammer. We should know this by now.

Because I guarantee you. If we go for Elevation. In a few turn, the Slaveowning Princes and their pet Iconoclasts in the South will proclaim a Prophet who claims that the inherent nature of some men is to be slaved, that the weak should serve and obey the strong and that serfdom and slavery is actually the natural state of a large portion of humamnity.

And once that happens, you'll have Burs proclaimed the Prophet of the Jurors or something. It will be utter chaos. And the "Slavery is Good" Prophet and the "Betray the world before it betrays me" Prophet are just the ones I can think off at the top of my head.

I should say that this last vote while important is being made in confidence. You are committing to writing a course action that could lead to a collision course with the Patriarch and its system but not right this second. It is not an immediate thing.