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Kingdom of God: A Quest of Holy Revolution

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for those who aren't aware-

this is the same reason that Louis XVI called the Estates General in 1789

we are about to see the Patriarch speedrun the French Revolution and i am all for it
 
Oh dear, a sovereign default that is very bad. Very much made worse as most debts would be to the most powerful and influential Juries.

This... this might spark a civil war.
 
Early bird gets the worm, so....

[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].
[X] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].
[X] Yatoni was the betrayed, and the Ravs are in the right [Orthodox, Pugilist & Confessor opinion].
[X] High Confession was a dream cut short that we can hope to realize in some form, again [Confessor Opinion].
[X] He is a false shepherd who must not be trusted to lead the people to freedom [Ultraradical Opinion].
[X] The Sanhedron is too easily manipulated and too unsatisfying a tool for liberation [Ultraradical Opinion].

Ultra-Radical Pugilist-Confessor Alliance!
 
[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].
[X] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].
[X] Yatoni was the betrayed, and the Ravs are in the right [Orthodox, Pugilist & Confessor opinion].
[X] High Confession was a dream cut short that we can hope to realize in some form, again [Confessor Opinion].
[X] He is a false shepherd who must not be trusted to lead the people to freedom [Ultraradical Opinion].
[X] The Sanhedron is too easily manipulated and too unsatisfying a tool for liberation [Ultraradical Opinion].

it is time. for WACKY RADICALISM.
 
[X] He is a false shepherd who must not be trusted to lead the people to freedom [Ultraradical Opinion].
[X] The Sanhedron is too easily manipulated and too unsatisfying a tool for liberation [Ultraradical Opinion].

The system is unjust, and these who risen high in it cannot have done so without becoming unjust themselves.
The Sanhedron where one hundred stands for thousands, and one hundred stands for millions, simply cannot be righteous!
 
Also if you have questions on why specific schisms or orthodoxy supports one of the options (or why an opinion is popular vs radical) I can elaborate on it, I just didn't really want this to be 10,000 words.

And where there is no opinion tag the schism is deeply internally split on it.
 
Well I am glad our Sect has a cache of weapons on hand now in case this becomes like the French revolution we can use those if things go down the drain.

[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].
[X] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].
[X] Yatoni was the betrayed, and the Ravs are in the right [Orthodox, Pugilist & Confessor opinion].
[X] High Confession was a nightmare that would have smothered the people and the world [Orthodox & Amalist Opinion].
[X] He is a misguided creature of his chamber, trapped within his cloister [Radical Opinion].
[X] The Sanhedron, if used correctly, can lead to the freedom of the people [Popular & Radical Opinion]

You know what after thinking about it I don't want to go off the deep end right at the beginning so I'll take the more moderate approach for now.
 
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Got here early so might as well put in thoughts.
[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].

God is just and loving, yet while the sinful were washed away so were countless innocent and victims therefore it could not have been God's intention.

[X] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].
[X] Obrogras was the betrayed, and the Amalists are in the right [Amalist Opinion].

As an individual Amalgast was great and yet it has been seen that as an institution his successors have retained their human flaws. If his spirit lived on would he friend of the farmers and small folk have stood against the peasants yearning for their freedom?

On the topic of high confessionalism, I am torn. I would not go so far as to call it a nightmare, misguided in its methods certainly, but the ascendency of the Synodic Circles and High Juries that sprang up in response to it have proven themselves to be a nightmare all their own. So I shall abstain from this issue.

[X] He is a misguided creature of his chamber, trapped within his cloister [Radical Opinion].

He may yet prove himself and his intentions noble, but the question is if he can.

[X] The Sanhedron, if used correctly, can lead to the freedom of the people [Popular & Radical Opinion].

In theory, the Sanhedron is a noble tool but it was not made for the Vaspukaran of today. The issues of representation and disenfranchisement hang heavy as does how the august body so rarely meets. It is in dire need of a reformation in both form and function so that it may better serve all the people.
 
So on the topic of the Flood, the question at hand here is one of theodicy. Now, given the theology that we've been told, it seems like the establishment belief is that God is good, but good and evil war within the souls of man, and we must defeat evil in order to create a perfect world and unite with God.

In other words, it seems to be the correct doctrine that evil is the result of human action. Not of supernatural evil (a dualist position such as Zoroastrianism) or even divine punishment.

Am I correct in thinking this?
 
ScottishMongol said:
So on the topic of the Flood, the question at hand here is one of theodicy. Now, given the theology that we've been told, it seems like the establishment belief is that God is good, but good and evil war within the souls of man, and we must defeat evil in order to create a perfect world and unite with God.

In other words, it seems to be the correct doctrine that evil is the result of human action. Not of supernatural evil (a dualist position such as Zoroastrianism) or even divine punishment.

Am I correct in thinking this?
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There is an idea of a supernatural evil, but it is more a super-collective ethos that is birthed out of human behavior rather than a distinct creature. Whereas God stands outside of human affairs evil is generated by human action. So the idea is that Babarak was so evil that it directed God's hand against his will to wipe out everyone, good and bad, rather than just to wipe out the bad. It's a way to comprehend such an enormous historical disaster as being the cause of evil rather than God punishing evil.

This ties into the idea that God is omniscient but not omnipotent, or at least his veil of mystery means that he holds significant portions of his power at bay out of fear for what it would create.
 
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[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].
[X] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].
[X] Yatoni was the betrayed, and the Ravs are in the right [Orthodox, Pugilist & Confessor opinion].
[X] High Confession was a dream cut short that we can hope to realize in some form, again [Confessor Opinion].
[X] He is a false shepherd who must not be trusted to lead the people to freedom [Ultraradical Opinion].
[X] The Sanhedron is too easily manipulated and too unsatisfying a tool for liberation [Ultraradical Opinion].

Tentative vote because I enjoy the ultra-radical pugilist memes but I'm open to arguments for other options/switching things up.
 
Cetashwayo said:
And Amalgast clears his throat, and Amalgast says: Due to the fiscal circumstances of the Patriarchate, Vaspukaran will exhaust all of its ability to pay its debts within six months. The Sanhedron has one purpose and one purpose only: To agree to financial reform that would improve this desperate situation totally, and reorganize the country's debts. If no agreement is reached by the end of the half-year period, the Patriarch will declare a general and total debt jubilee and repudiate all debts everywhere in Vaspukaran, and by doing so bring unholy iniquity to its knees, in finality.

The Grand Sanhedron is dead silent. Some of the elders, especially from the High Juries, have turned red. The High Priests have turned pale. Many of the Low Priests hang their mouths agape. The Mouflons are motionless. And Amalgast takes off his death mask, and becomes again just Amalgast the Fourtieth, Santsarran. And he commands, that the elders may speak now.
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Amalgast XL Santsarran is not at all fucking around, holy shit.

"What are you going to do, double palace coup me? During a great sanhedron? Go on. Try me. Try me. Commit that level of blasphemy and crack the nation on which whatever riches you have rests into so many pieces that NOTHING will remain."


[x] That the Flood was a just punishment for the wicked of Babarak [Iconoclast & Orthodox Opinion].
"My Sisters and Brothers," Chedyanaki Shevah says, beaming at the reunited pair of Sage-Sister Dvorah and Guru Wendam, "it was only recently that the writing of Brother Abgar reminded me of the need to combat evil within-" She is quiet, for a moment, pensive, rolling her shoulders in the manner many of the Scourge of God immediately recognize, "- as well as without; thus I spent time in between work and drill on study: It is clear to me that the Flood was God scourging the wicked men of Babarak for their sins." She smiles. "Though, of course, as is custom for the Free, we will probably still all agree to never agree!"


[x] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].

Counting first on her fingers, then grabbing a pencil and her breakfast salted fish bun wrapper, Sister Shevah licks her lips, tugs on her red headband and does some quick math.

"You know what? Every eight hundred to a thousand years there's been a new prophet, if we don't look at the first two. In a hundred years there might be another. Vaspurakan will live in interesting times by then!"

[x] Obrogras was the betrayed, and the Amalists are in the right [Amalist Opinion].

She crosses her arms in front of her chest "Thus also I hold this this position: that if Amalgast, praise be, is the greatest of the Prophets of God, He is nevertheless merely man, then Rav Obrogas was right not to worship him so, and it was Yatoni who was the betrayer. This is how I have always seen it."

[x] High Confession was a nightmare that would have smothered the people and the world [Orthodox & Amalist Opinion].

When the debate turns to this, Shevah turns belligerent. "C'mon, fight me," she says, and when someone whacks her with a newspaper she thrusts her chin up. "Yeah, I said it, I mean it. C'mon, have you read or listened to that High Confessor shit? What we seek is an utopia where all mankind works in harmony, having achieved spiritual and material mastery, to acheieve our utopia. The fucking High Confessors? Stifling, choking, they'd smother you in engine oil and call it holy." Sister Shevah looks around and glares at anyone willing to meet her gaze. "Total reformation of society for universal war! Against everyone! You remember, in Hasdaya? When we were at the Fort, squabbling over what to do with the Komandir?"

And with so many new recruits, no, only the old core cadre do, but many have heard the stories. "One of us spoke about transforming himself into a machine of total war to the knife and Baba Tanda I think rightly clapped him about the ears for that one until that dumb idea rattled right out of his skull. And the fucking High Confessors crept right to power and tried to choke the life out of our Kingdom and force that on everyone."

[x] He is a misguided creature of his chamber, trapped within his cloister [Radical Opinion].

"Y'all have heard the tales about his former wife turned mistress. Only reason I give him this much benefit of the doubt is that he's actually called for a Grand Sanhedron, rather than just sit in the cloister like a good little pet for the High Priests and Juries."

[x] The Sanhedron, if used correctly, can lead to the freedom of the people [Popular & Radical Opinion].

Sister Shevah listens to many of the others before she speaks, heart heavy with emotion, eyes brimming with tears. "With God as my witness, I beg you listen to me. I'd prefer a world where the Kingdom of God can become better, more just, more equitable to woman and man like, to all chambers, present and future. To do all this without the rivers of blood spilled in the cycles of revolution."

Hands ball into fists, knuckles scarred from all too many fistfights, her stance is firm. "The Convent always stand ready to do our part when that day comes. But ere that, it is the tool by which our Kingdom of God has bettered itself. If that does not suffice..."

She makes a basic gesture of the Convent's public signs, the cycling of a rifle's bolt.
 
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[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].
[X] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].
[X] Both were in the wrong, and their feud divided the faithful [Iconoclast Opinion].
[X] High Confession was a dream cut short that we can hope to realize in some form, again [Confessor Opinion].
[X] He is a false shepherd who must not be trusted to lead the people to freedom [Ultraradical Opinion].
[X] The Sanhedron is too easily manipulated and too unsatisfying a tool for liberation [Ultraradical Opinion].


This slate of beliefs, explains the Disciple Abgar Ben Hadam, is an Assault on Tyranny. For too long, Vaspurakan has been in the thrall of powerful individuals elevated, God-like, above the masses. There is none like God, nor can there ever be; even Amalgast the great was but one of his servants. As holy truth exists within all people, therefore holiness and rectitude can be best achieved through mass action and universal reform, not merely by the words and deeds of one man (or woman, he is quick to mention). We must therefore seek a world in which the petty individual squabbles of the great are banished into the dark past where they belong, and thereby realize a more perfect and enlightened future where all speak as equals.
 
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Well, I wanted to settle in the Pugilist neighborhood, let's appeal to the Pugilists.

[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].
[X] Yatoni was the betrayed, and the Ravs are in the right [Orthodox, Pugilist & Confessor opinion].

Otherwise I defer to the popular opinion.

[X] Amalgast is separated in kind, not just degree, from other prophets, and he is the foundation of all that came after [Popular opinion].
[X] He is surely a good man and soul of Amalgast, blocked by evil forces [Popular Opinion].

And the High Confessors seem like they're on some crazy Enlightenment shit, I like the cut of their jib.

[X] High Confession was a dream cut short that we can hope to realize in some form, again [Confessor Opinion].

Lastly I want us to get involved in the Sanhedron just because it sounds really fun and wacky.

[X] The Sanhedron, if used correctly, can lead to the freedom of the people [Popular & Radical Opinion].
 
[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].
[X] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].
[X] Yatoni was the betrayed, and the Ravs are in the right [Orthodox, Pugilist & Confessor opinion].
[X] High Confession was a dream cut short that we can hope to realize in some form, again [Confessor Opinion].
[X] He is a false shepherd who must not be trusted to lead the people to freedom [Ultraradical Opinion].
[X] The Sanhedron is too easily manipulated and too unsatisfying a tool for liberation [Ultraradical Opinion].
 
[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].
[X] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].
[X] Yatoni was the betrayed, and the Ravs are in the right [Orthodox, Pugilist & Confessor opinion].
[X] High Confession was a nightmare that would have smothered the people and the world [Orthodox & Amalist Opinion].
[X] He is a misguided creature of his chamber, trapped within his cloister [Radical Opinion].
[X] The Sanhedron is too easily manipulated and too unsatisfying a tool for liberation [Ultraradical Opinion].
 
[x] That the Flood was a just punishment for the wicked of Babarak [Iconoclast & Orthodox Opinion].

Arrogance! Disgusting, wretched arrogance, the curse of mankind! Who would claim that any plot wrought by human hands could change the will of God? Who would claim to wield the power to derail divine Justice? If he is so strong, let him meet me outside!

[X] Amalgast is separated in kind, not just degree, from other prophets, and he is the foundation of all that came after [Popular opinion].
[X] He is surely a good man and soul of Amalgast, blocked by evil forces [Popular Opinion].
[X] Yatoni was the betrayed, and the Ravs are in the right [Orthodox, Pugilist & Confessor opinion].
[X] The Sanhedron, if used correctly, can lead to the freedom of the people [Popular & Radical Opinion].

Friends, who are you to judge the greatness of those selected by God? What supreme madness has overtaken you, that you think you hold some special insight? Forgive my boldness, Lord, but I say: to disagree with these tenets is not debate - it is damnation!

[x] High Confession was a nightmare that would have smothered the people and the world [Orthodox & Amalist Opinion].

Restrained by his friends and co-workers, Brother Zeb tried to remain silent during this debate, but vibrated so greatly with rage that some expected him to start levitating.
 
[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].
[X] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].
[x] Obrogras was the betrayed, and the Amalists are in the right [Amalist Opinion].
[X] High Confession was a dream cut short that we can hope to realize in some form, again [Confessor Opinion].
[X] He is a false shepherd who must not be trusted to lead the people to freedom [Ultraradical Opinion].
[X] The Sanhedron is too easily manipulated and too unsatisfying a tool for liberation [Ultraradical Opinion].
 
[X] That the Flood was treachery by evil to sabotage the justice of God [Pugilist Opinion & Confessor Opinion].
[X] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].
[X] Yatoni was the betrayed, and the Ravs are in the right [Orthodox, Pugilist & Confessor opinion].
[X] High Confession was a dream cut short that we can hope to realize in some form, again [Confessor Opinion].
[X] He is a false shepherd who must not be trusted to lead the people to freedom [Ultraradical Opinion].
[X] The Sanhedron is too easily manipulated and too unsatisfying a tool for liberation [Ultraradical Opinion].
 
[X] That the Flood was a tragedy that delayed the cause of world salvation [Amalist Opinion].
"The Flood wiped out the faithful as well as the impious, the innocent as well as the guilty, the tortured as well as the torturer. It was a great Injustice and thus cannot have been the work of God."
[X] Amalgast is the greatest step yet taken, but he is not so special and essential that he should be totally above all others [Radical opinion].
"The Great Amalgast is the Prophet who saved our people from the yoke of the Rohir and built the Kingdom of God. But no man alone can rebuild the Spiral of Truth, not even a Prophet of God. And to witness this truth you need but look around you. His work was great but it was merely a part in Mankind's Salvation not the whole of it."
[X] Obrogras was the betrayed, and the Amalists are in the right [Amalist Opinion].
"If indeed a shard of The Great Amalgast resided in the Patriachs then it would have been defiled and broken by the evils these men committed in the name of God. Surely God would not have allowed one of His Prophets to be defiled so. No, the Patriarchs are but mortal men, no closer to God than any of us."
[X] High Confession was a nightmare that would have smothered the people and the world [Orthodox & Amalist Opinion].
"The rebuilding of the Spiral of Truth is the collective work of all Mankind. To believe that a single group, a single vision can reach the glory of God is an echo of the first sin and would lead us only further from Salvation."
[X] He is a misguided creature of his chamber, trapped within his cloister [Radical Opinion].
"We cannot rely on the leader of an Injust system to help us. Reformation will not come through him but likely inspite of him."
[X] The Sanhedron is too easily manipulated and too unsatisfying a tool for liberation [Ultraradical Opinion].
"The Sanhedron is a meeting of the mighty where they decide which scraps they need to toss the needy and righteous this time. This time, as every time before, the voices of those who suffer greatest go unheard in it's halls. The deliberations of the mighty will not save the weak from the predations of the mighty."
 
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Cetashwayo said:
[] Obrogras was the betrayed, and the Amalists are in the right [Amalist Opinion].
[] Yatoni was the betrayed, and the Ravs are in the right [Orthodox, Pugilist & Confessor opinion].
[] Both were in the wrong, and their feud divided the faithful [Iconoclast Opinion].
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Sunni, Shi'ah, & Khawarij/Ibadi vibes

@Cetashwayo does picking the Ultra option on the Sanhendron prevent our participation there?
 
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