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Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

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    • Good Seed and Omake Spreadsheet Rules:

    Firstly, if you have questions about Good Seeds and the like please read here. If that doesn't answer your question please ping me in thread, or on Discord.

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  • Threadmarks
    • [X] The Negotiated End
    [X] Blind the Thief

    I just don't want to change who we are tbh, and this is still powerful for us.
     
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    Mochinator said:
    My main reasoning being that having them as a ally or even a non-aggression treaty allows us to focus our defenses on just the Jingshen who aren't in that good a standing with the righteous sects. Like, one of the reasons they're accepted is that besides their wealth, they're the only non-demonic sect in the desert.
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    I'm really not seeing this. We're creating an outpost of the Strength Purity Sect, and then we'll have two Righteous sects and one Demonic sect in the Great Desert. And the Jingshen focus on diplomacy, we're not going to have the advantage in the new position we'd create.

    TimEd said:
    If we gamble on Old Cannibal killing the Devil Bees, we get a large amount of territory, whether we win or lose.

    And I assume that territory would go some ways towards weakening the wealth curse in itself?

    Though this is definitely the Greed option. Amd we've already gambled too much of our short term forces I think.
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    This is correct. It has a shot of seriously weakening the Jingshen as well.
    Rakuhn said:
    @occipitallobe
    What would a contest of influence over the new sect look like? Would we we need to use our diplo action every turn on the new sect to keep abreast with the Jignshen's efforts? Other than our responses to random events, what would we be doing to try to win the contest?
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    We'd kind of have to give up on conquering the desert. We'd need to put more focus into diplomacy, making deals to sell spirit stones, deals on raising tariffs without complaint from the buyers of Jingshen stones.
    Faraway-R said:
    Old Cannibal's option is a goddamn trap. He has zero incentive to not tell fucking everyone about the deal. I can see him wait, wait until he wins the Devil Bee Civil War, until he secures his position. But after that? The secret will be leaked. Even if he himself binds the agreement like he did once before... He has disciples that he will lead through our territories with distinctly weak resistance. And they aren't idiots. And they won't be bound to silence. Hard pass.
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    This is all dealt with with proper terms on the contract. Old Gold is aware of these loopholes as well.
     
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    Why do we even need to conquer the desert is my perspective, we'll have two thirds of it this position, that's more territory than any other faction on the table mitigated only in how it's generally poor land.

    Anyway, I waited until the next page so my thonks could be taken on their own merits and flaws, but as you can probably guess by now..

    [X] What are the qualities of a righteous man?
    [X] Walk in the Light, Cloaked by Shadow
     
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    Well, being conqueror's is also quite fun on its own. You don't see that too often on quester's when they want to be nice and reasonable 90% of the time.
     
    Alectai said:
    Okay, so, here comes my analysis.

    The Negotiation
    [ ] All that is necessary for evil to succeed...
    --This is a hilariously, comically bad idea. Yes it's great for us in the short term, but it fucks us hard in the long term by giving the Jingshen cause and purpose to form a coalition against us, even disregarding how the Devil Bees now get the Blood Cannibal inheritances and strong leadership in the form of Old Cannibal. It's borrowing money from Paul to pay Peter, we're mortgaging our future to get a little advantage today. Pass.

    [ ] The New Sect
    --Also a trap, but not for the reason you'd think. A one third tithe and a new friendly power established in the remaining third of the Desert is more than enough to satisfy our wargoals, profit from the encounter, and reduce our threats by a salient. However, Old Cannibal is still allowed to flee to the Devil Bees, and though he isn't guaranteed to take over... He's still a Mid Nascent Soul against two warring Early Nascents, the outcome isn't in a great deal of doubt. So the Blood Cannibal Inheritances still get to the Devil Bees. Even beyond that though? The Desert Oasis might be positively disposed towards us, but we don't receive enough territorial gains to outwallet Jingshen, even if we dismiss their socially stacked Nascent Soul who can be constantly afforded to press the "BUILD RELATIONSHIPS" button like a lunatic. Still, if we combine this with Blind the Thief, we can likely turn this trap on them and keep those good relations--as we'll gain heavy progress towards shucking what's left of the Thin Qi curse as well as a reduction in its impact, letting us use our greater expertise to make up for Jingshen's ability to constantly spam Lady Jiao and loadasmoney on them.

    [ ] The Negotiated End
    --Very powerful when combined with Blind the Thief, as we'd have reasonable odds of completely throwing the curse off if we don't shit the bed on negotiations. Old Cannibal doesn't get free passage to the Devil Bees, and we get a two hundred year moratorium before he can trouble us again. Unless he finds a cheat code to push Late Nascent, he's not likely to be able to overcome us after two hundred years of digesting our new gains. Other than that, it puts us firmly on the course to a reckoning with the Jingshen, and somebody is going to come out of that as Desert Hegemon. Odds are it won't be us, because they're a Righteous Power and we are both not a Righteous Power and also not very good at lightning wars, so we can't make any gains into a fait accompli. Viable, but risky.

    [ ] War to the Knife
    --Incredibly dangerous unless we also take Step into the Light, then it merely becomes expensive. Eliminates Old Cannibal, probably stops us from getting any real ground while the Jingshen ninja it all--it's super satisfying but also not a very good choice. Though at least we'd have free claim to everything in Old Cannibal's Aperture plus all the other benefits of a bagging a Mid Nascent Soul!

    But yeah, not a good move.

    [ ] What are the qualities of a righteous man?
    --As this is paired with one of the Shadow's Boons, I've saved my thonks on this for later. Suffice to say, as much of a sea change as this is, most of the changes end up ultimately playing into our geopolitical ambitions.

    The Shadow's Boons
    [ ] Blind the Thief
    --A straightforward option here, this sharply reduces the impact of the Curse of Poverty--given how so much of our build at the moment is all about turning money into infrastructure, this is a gigantic bonus to our ability to weather the innumerable storms of our existence--and it also makes fully shucking the curse more likely to happen--I wouldn't be surprised if this combined with a big territorial gain and exploitation might be enough to shake the rest of the curse off in total. We're still getting fucked by the Trials and Difficult Tribulations, but our ability to recover and rebuild from calamity is greatly enhanced. Best in combination with The Negotiated End and The New Sect--the former as it means a good outcome will shuck off the rest of the curse, and the latter because it helps us keep up with Jingshen's moneybin and ability to spam "NEGOTIATE" as their Nascent Soul action.

    [ ] Step into the Light
    --And excellent all around option. Best with War to the Knife, but will have formidable benefits for years to come. This means that when Manuel Konstantinos takes the field, he tends to win, I rather expect Bhigru would have had a much harsher time in his challenge if Manuel wasn't at the tail end of months of combat when he sprung his trap. This means he is less likely to be Wounded, and he is more likely to achieve success in battle. This is the best option for War to the Knife, as it limits how much damage Old Cannibal will be able to do--we were roughly peers before this, Manuel will have a distinct advantage in battle with everything else he's stacked in his favor. Because everyone knows Manuel Konstantinos can't stick it out in a long battle. If you think he won't exploit that change in fate to maximize his chances of neutralizing a powerful rival, you've got another thing coming.

    [ ] Cloak the Ways Between
    -Sharply reduces the power and numbers of our attackers in the Hundred Year Trials. This is a very simple thing to say but the realities are not to be discounted. A good set of trials still tends to take a 20% tithe out of each bracket. A bad set can nearly wipe a bracket out, as we saw with the Core Formation bracket in the last run. That being said, this option doesn't help us capitalize on our overall geopolitical ambitions--it's a "Lose Less" option as opposed to a "Win Harder" one. That's not nothing--in fact, that's a big ass step towards further stabilizing our footing... But it is something to keep in mind. And I'll be honest, this is a threat I'd prefer to resolve through actual gameplay rather than a tremendous Omake reward?

    [ ] Even Lightning comes from a Cloud
    -Dangerous Tribulations are reduced from fearsome to an annoyance, this is generally irrelevant for Good Seeds--let's be fair, the existence of Tribulation Treasures on command all but eliminates this as a threat through the power of omake--but it would have significant impact on our concentration of experts from one realm entering the next. Again, this is a 'Lose Less' option as opposed to a 'Start Winning' option, but applies all the time as opposed to only once every century like the previous option. Still not a great choice my gut says.

    [ ] Walk in the Light, Cloaked by Shadow (Can only be taken in conjunction with "What are the qualities of a righteous man?" from the prior post)
    -Oooooooh boy, this is a fucking big boy play. We effectively change factions doing this, and in the process we get to goomba stomp Old Cannibal and effectively turn the Desert into a Righteous Stronghold. No fucking wonder this required the 1 Million Omake Word Reward and a negotiation reward to make this possible in the first place. No fucking wonder that Old Cannibal just fucking dies because this kind of thing is almost unthinkable and how could he possibly predict this was on the table? We do take an overall strength drop--though I imagine Manuel is going to push a grandfather clause in for those who are already on one route or another because he's not a sucker, so this isn't going to have an overall impact on our Good Seeds I imagine--and I imagine that we'll be able to retain other options that are shady as long as they can be dressed up as something else, hence why we're still "Stronger pound for pound than a faction that started Righteous" is.

    Like, for all that "In exchange for this, you use up your Fate reward", what we gain out of this is tremendous. Our biggest weakness as a Clan is that we're isolated and surrounded by enemies. This doesn't change the matter but it does turn wars into battles of intrigue--which Manuel excels in. The Blood Cannibals are wiped out and we become the Desert Superpower, while Jingshen loses the ability to pull their "Three Nascent Samba" tactic because that's then unprovoked war against another Righteous Faction. We reduce the Scorpion Road tariffs but get a tremendous amount of extra wealth we can develop internally thanks to practically doubling our territory, and if we still want to expand more--well, the Devil Bees are right fucking there and they didn't just get an experienced Nascent Soul knocking them into shape in this outcome, which was our next military target after the Blood Cannibals anyway.

    We have to participate in the Demon Suppressing War--but to be honest it was in our interests to do so anyway, Demonic Altar Sect is not going to be our friend in any universe. Our other conflicts become about soft-power, and as a Desert Superpower, we largely control the flow of Spirit Stones into the rest of the setting. We get access to a bunch of new Secret Realms and tournament arc stuff... Like, this is a sea change to the nature of the game, and it appeals to me for all of those reasons.
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    Damn you and your silver tongue. ;)

    [X] What are the qualities of a righteous man?
    [X] Walk in the Light, Cloaked by Shadow
     
    * vote was changed later *

    Switching to this because I don't want to go Righteous. I dunno, there's a lot of good stuff in it, but I can't help but feel like we're hobbling our own long-term potential in exchange for reducing the immediate danger.

    After all, why should we sit in place for thousands of years, playing political games in a world that metaphysically hates us? Neutering our ability to strike back at this world just isn't fun to me. It's lame.
     
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    So. I read Alectai's analysis. And it is a very good one. But going righteous just doesn't vibe with me. However, I do agree with the overall argument against the New Sect, so I'll be going with my other acceptable option -

    [X] The Negotiated End
    Manuel will probably manage to get enough concessions to keep this from being too badly screwed, and we can eventually go to war with Jingshen and undercut their diplomacy that way. Moreover, given time and complete control of the spiritstone trade, we can win back the diplomatic points we'll have lost. Finally, given the Attrition rate in the desert and the fact we control the only way in and out already, quite frankly, I think we can hold out long enough. And we get to lessen the trials, so, you know, notably less damage done to us on that front.
     
    Going Righteous is both a betrayal of who the sect is, and also makes it easier for Jingshen to reduce tariffs on the scorpion Road.

    Being a Righteous sect is more than "don't use poison or human remains guys" or a military alliance. It's buying into Xiania culture. Buying into settling disputes via exchanges of pointers and duels. Buying into honour and Face as important concepts. Buying into a belief in a world where thousands of years pass and nothing fundamentally changes. All things the Imperial Optimatoi saw when they came to this world, and found lacking. All things they conquered 6 Seas, and defied Heaven itself to change. Going Righteous is giving up on the generations-old legacy of our clan.

    Of more immediate concern. Sure, going Righteous means Jingshen can't rush us with 3 Nascent Souls. It also means they don't have to. Disputes between Righteous clans aren't settled by open warfare and massed battles - our strengths. They are settled by tournaments, by duels, by limited expressions of power and courtly intrigue, because that is how Righteous sects maintain stability, by preventing open warfare. All those thing we didn't have to buy in to. Before we arrived on the Scorpion road, Jingshen kept tariffs low because they could play that game better than anyone else on the Road. We don't buy into any of that, as a Demonic Sect - if someone wants something from us, they have to defeat our armies to force it out of us. But as a Righteous sect, we have to play that game - we can't just sit on the road and refuse to lower tariffs like we currently do, we have to play nice and diplomance and put the issue to a contest because *that is how righteous sects settle disputes*. We lose the ability to ask *you, and whose army?*
     
    I also want to note that we absolutely cannot underestimate the power of bureaucracy. If we start playing under a set of rules, the more experienced righteous sects, some of whom will still dislike us a lot, will find ways to use the rules to hinder us at every turn. We will lose many opportunities we didn't even know it was possible to lose, because we got ganged up on and cajoled into it.

    edit: and yeah, what @nothingtoseehere said, we aren't built for the righteous game. The Clan's strengths have next to no synergy with the way righteous sects do things, and those little inefficiencies will massively add up in the long term.
     
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    [X] The Negotiated End
    [X] Blind the Thief

    Remember, the biggest hamper on the Golden Devil's ability to scale is lack of wealth. More wealth = the more powerful actions we can take. We can take long term actions like improving our Technique Palace that would otherwise be a gamble alongside short term actions, for example.

    For reference, Thin Qi is a 4 Shiny Disadvantage, this would get it down to 2 Shiny, and expanding land with Negotiated End might get it down to 1 or even completely nonexistent.

    This means our 3 Shiny Spirit Stone Mine pick will be much less suppressed, so we'll be rolling in the dosh.

    This is a really big deal. Money can be used to mitigate the after-effects of trials, money can be spent on cultivation resources for our people, money can be spent on upgrading our arrays, money can be spent to recruit allies, money can do many many things to help the Golden Devils grow.
     
    If'n we want to go with Negotiate, Blind the Thief should also be our goal as well since we won't be Poor Devil's in the black when spending on big project's anymore.
    Throw money at everything to make our lives easier and problems disappear!!
     
    [X] The Negotiated End
    [X] Cloak the Ways Between

    I'm changing vote too, I don't want to go righteous, My seed has just started going into madness and Hulk from mild mannered scientist, if we good righteous I will have to give change him
     
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    Antonius Emmanuel Eleanora 27 - [Repair]
  • Sidestory
    • Going for lifespan treasure this turn.

    This was originally something from after Antonius visited the Qiguai secret realm since I couldn't find the inspiration to write about said realm. I have since been inspired and also rewritten what was originally here. Since I want to save that for later, instead have something from Antonius' basic training.

    Antonius Emmanuel Eleanora 27
    [Sidestory - First Day of Basic Training]    ​

    Should a man seek to join the Imperial Legion, he must first become an Aspirant. He must become one among tens of thousands and he must live away from family, from friends and from home. In the Dawn Fortress, he would forge a new family for himself. One more link in the chain of the legion.

    But that was hard to imagine for young Antonius. This was the first time he had truly been away from his family and all that he could think of was the next five years looming over him. It was here in the heart of his clan, with the hustling and bustling of thousands of aspirants where he had first begun to feel alone.

    His first day there was spent on training. It took place in a large meditation hall that was sheathed in bronze from floor to walls with other metals formed lines of unfamiliar symbols that connected together to form a thousand symmetrical circles.

    Seated inside one of them, Antonius felt strangely isolated from the world. It was as the world physically mimicked the distance he felt in his heart. Though he could see around him, every sound and smell besides his own breathing seemed to be cut off. Even the increasingly familiar feeling of another's qi was absent, leaving him with only the qi that was flowing through the air.

    As people began to settle down, he felt the instructors take their seats. An aging legionnaire sat on a raised dais at the end of the hall and next to him younger attendants stood at attention along the walls. The man took a moment to glance over every face in the hall and then he began to speak. His voice somehow carried across the room and Antonius heard him as if he was seated right beside him.

    "The first step is breathing." He began, moving directly into the lesson. "Through this act, our soul draws in the qi in the air. It flows down our throats and pools in our lungs. It beats in our hearts and through our blood it nourishes our body. To draw the raw qi in the air is the most natural of the methods of cultivation."

    Antonius took a moment to look around him. The assistants had begun to move from aspirant to aspirant. Many of them knew how to cultivate already - a blindfolded clan boy seemed at perfect ease, a woman dressed in flowing robes colored bronze had the posture of long training while others like a girl wearing a strange shadowy black cloak had already drawn an assistant.

    As he looked around, he could feel the qi travelling through the symbols in the ground and the air beginning to grow richer with qi. Where before it was the familiar density of the thin desert air, now it grew thicker until it flowed like water and Antonius almost gasped as it rushed to fill his body. He took a deep breath to settle himself and closed his eyes to concentrate.

    He let the qi flow through his body and turned his attention to the instructor, using his voice as an anchor. As the aging legionnaire spoke of the blood of bronze and how it flowed through the body, images were conjured in his mind. Glowing molten bronze being poured into a cast and then the same bronze moving through his body. He felt his body burn with heat as breathed faster and faster.

    After an uncertain amount of time, his focus returned to his surroundings once more. The legionnaire's voice returned to sharp focus in his mind and he spoke of how their body would change with qi, growing faster, stronger and far more durable. The images these conjured were far less intense and Antonius found himself settling into a rhythm. He let the qi flow through his body as he had learned to do under the legate.

    When he had first begun, he hadn't considered how much it mattered. But here and now, an old forgotten fact came to the forefront of his mind. The Organ Meat Desert where the clan made its home wasn't called that merely because of its natural landscape. It wasn't merely water that it lacked, what it truly lacked was qi. The qi in the air was thin and very difficult to cultivate with. But this much power in the air, it came so much more easily. With every breath, it rushed in to fill his body.

    "Many of you are already aware of how to Breathe." The instructor continued. "And many of you are learning now. Your body must feel exhilarating as qi strengthens every part of you. The world feels vibrant, does it not? You can see it with the eyes of your soul. Though you cannot sense each other, I should be clear to you. Extend your senses. Picture it."

    Antonius realised why he'd missed the man's aura when he first come in. It was strong and so easy to spot. It was so calm and controlled, standing out it in the free-flowing qi of the air. But it was also impossibly bronze and here in this fortress, it was almost the same as the world around him. But now that the man had called attention to himself, he was impossible to miss.

    "Breathing is where the conscious and unconscious mind meet," The instructor explained. "This is why it is so important. Your body draws in qi naturally to sustain itself, but you must consciously control it to grow in power. Breathe in…. And release. Quiet your mind until there are no thoughts. Simply feel your qi. Draw it in."

    So on it went. Antonius lost himself in the process. The bronzed room called to him and it was so easy to just focus on that. Every breath made him stronger and though it grew more difficult with time, it was a fulfilling exertion that he enjoyed. He got lost in the rhythmic pull of qi.

    Then he felt a hand on his shoulder and awoke with a start. He glanced to his side to see one of the attendants standing next to him and frowning. "Is there a problem?" Antonius asked, still not fully awakened from his trance. When the attendant didn't immediately answer, he took the moment to look around him and noticed that there were far fewer aspirants in that hall.

    Everyone that remained showed the same struggle he had felt in their cultivation. The blindfolded boy was grimacing while an attendant clasped his shoulders, and leaned in close with whispers of encouragement. The girl with the black cloak fidgeted as she meditated, but was still lost to the world. Only the girl in robes sat as she had before. Finally, he looked back at the attendant who still seemed to be considering what to say. "Am I doing something wrong?" Antonius asked him with a frown.

    The attendant's expression smoothed out. "No," He replied, slowly. "Everything is fine. Please... keep up the good work, aspirant." The attendant nodded at him and then moved on to the others. Antonius felt him disappear from his esoteric senses and he followed his movements with his eyes for a few more minutes before returning to his cultivation. That had been a strange encounter but slightly encouraging.

    When Antonius came to next, he was hungry, drenched in sweat and it had been over twelve hours but somehow Antonius felt fulfilled. For a moment there he'd forgotten his troubles and fears. As he followed the other aspirants out of the training hall, he had a smile on his face.

    Cultivation was fun.
     
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  • Sidestory
    • [X] The Negotiated End
    [X] Cloak the Ways Between

    Man some good arguments here. I feel like a fish on dry land. flip flop flip flop.
     
    So, going to try and shill for Righteous Path in more concise terms and hopefully gather more support for it. It's the option with the most game-changing potential:
    + Neutralizes the Jingshen Clan as enemies, since they can't target another Righteous Power.
    + Eliminates the Cannibals as enemies, wiping them out entirely.
    + Neutralize the Seven Divine Saber Palace as enemies, since we're now on the same team.
    + More reliable cooperation with other Righteous Powers, opening up further Diplomacy options which are limited to mutual benefits while still labeled a Demonic Power.
    + Rehabilitates the Clan's image with our ultimately noble goals, allowing us to play the soft-power intrigue game while still warring against other Demonic Powers, like the Devil Bees.
    + Gains the entirety of Cannibal territory, becoming the Desert Superpower and overshadowing Jingshen. Large Territorial gains also means working off the Wealth Curse faster.
    + Gain access to exploring the Third Sea, now that Golden Devils aren't shunned as pariahs.
    +/- Must contribute to the war effort in the Great Battlefield, but we're already doing that anyways, and our switch in alignment means less enemies to fight which frees up resources.

    - Moderate reduction in strength as dubious techniques are prohibited, but will remain more powerful than an equivalent Righteous Power.
    - Major reduction on Scorpion Road tariffs, reducing our ability to regulate trade, but in exchange we gain more reliable internal income that doesn't rely on it.

    Basically, this changes the status quo entirely and most of the narrative the Clan is stuck in, which I think most voters are sleeping on in favor of what's already known/expected.
     
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    Hold on there, Saber Palace are still enemies, this just means they can't openly march on us.

    But they can't do that anyway because we're not neighbours.
     
    [X] The New Sect
    [X] Blind the Thief
     
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