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Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

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    • Bob Saget said:
    I'm not really trying to convince anyone here. I lack in-depth perspective and won't be voting on account of that.

    But I think the 'shadows', 'righteous sect', and 'step into the light' are the least appealing options. While shadows is obviously a huge malus, it's relatively far away on the horizon. And because this is cultivation land, having enemies to kill can be a good thing even if it's mostly a bad thing.
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    far away on the horizon? Its every hundred years. And we have to start keeping in mind by the 60 year mark every time and deal with the consequences for 20 to 40 years afterwords. The only way its far away is in the sense of the amount of irl time it takes for 100 quest years to pass.

    Having enemies to kill is a good thing? Uh, not mechanically. Not at all. These assholes get to tp out if we beat em so we dont even get loot for kilking them. Its not an rpg so you dont get experience either. Also we have plenty of enemies even if this did completely remove them from the equation. Which it doesnt.
     
    [X] All that is necessary for evil to succeed...

    the path to truly becoming overlords of the desert. Of course there will be danger involved.

    [X] Cloak the Ways Between

    Could be convinced to go for tribulation one
     
    I really, really don't think it's a good idea to risk becoming weaker when we're not done recovering from an unusually bad set of trials. We already get bullied when we're weaker after the culling; imagine how much worse it would be if our plan was figured out and we destroyed our diplomatic relationships? The Saber Palace would certainly be much bolder, for one, and SPS would probably extort more toll reductions out of us.
     
    Simon_Jester said:
    ...Pardon my ignorance, but what kinds of restrictions would the Bronze Devils face as a consequence of 'going Righteous?'
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    Can't openly conquer whomever you want, need a very good cassus beli to go to open war with another righteous sect, expected to chip in when the big demonic sects get really rowdy, can't use human sacrifice or soul harvesting in any capacity, poison arts aren't banned but they are frowned upon, stuff like that.
     
    no. said:
    Can't openly conquer whomever you want, need a very good cassus beli to go to open war with another righteous sect, expected to chip in when the big demonic sects get really rowdy, can't use human sacrifice or soul harvesting in any capacity, poison arts aren't banned but they are frowned upon, stuff like that.
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    The first is problematic for us if we think in terms of multi-millennial ambitions to take over ze giant continent mwa-ha-HAAA, but not so bad on smaller timescales where there are still demonic enemies to worry about. Though it's also problematic in that it makes it harder for us to dilute the wealth curse through conquests.

    The second is problematic but also beneficial since it cuts both ways.

    The third... well, depends on whether we can get loot out of helping to beat on the big demonic sects.

    The fourth... I don't think we do that?

    And the fifth... well, shame for our poison cultivators but as long as nobody's outright blowing up the clan over their existence I don't think I see a problem there.
     
    Simon_Jester said:
    The first is problematic for us if we think in terms of multi-millennial ambitions to take over ze giant continent mwa-ha-HAAA, but not so bad on smaller timescales where there are still demonic enemies to worry about. Though it's also problematic in that it makes it harder for us to dilute the wealth curse through conquests.

    The second is problematic but also beneficial since it cuts both ways.

    The third... well, depends on whether we can get loot out of helping to beat on the big demonic sects.

    The fourth... I don't think we do that?

    And the fifth... well, shame for our poison cultivators but as long as nobody's outright blowing up the clan over their existence I don't think I see a problem there.
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    Don't take this as an exhaustive list, I'm just naming things I remember off the top of my head. Just think of it like Faces and Heels in wrestling. If you're a Heel, there's no limit to how low you can sink, but even if you're more of an anti-hero Heel you can still use dirty tactics, attack people backstage, etc. But if you turn Face, your behavior becomes inherently more limited because you're supposed to be at least somewhat honorable.
     
    I think wakening the strength of tribulation is the beast option, it improves our recovery rate, make getting to nascent soul easier and boosts our good seeds.

    To be honest I was always planning to propose using one of Manuel actions to lecture our elder of war (I forgot his name) and have him attempt advancing to nascent soul, it probably wouldn't have worked but we got to try or we won't ever get another nascent soul and wakening tribulations is going to massively help in the attempt.

    [X] Even Lightning comes from a Cloud
    [X] All that is necessary for evil to succeed...
     
    [X] Cloak the Ways Between

    Honestly the hunt is the boogeyman that we spend decades building up to resist and they always tear us a new one. By limiting their numbers this way we qualitatively improve our odds of retaining future gains. With less strong enemies to fight we retain more and might actually start making a come back. From everything that I have seen here this one reacurring event is what is really dragging us down. Everything else we have been working around and overcoming but this is something we can not even begin to reduce in any way shape or form consistently. Even with tribulations we could bypass them somewhat with all of this new research we have had done for temporary power.

    This one area finally has a chance to get weakened. Why would we vote for any lesser option? This is clearly the superior choice here!
     
    [X] All that is necessary for evil to succeed...
    [X] Cloak the Ways Between

    I also think letting cannibal go give us 2 chances for him to die. One against the clan, and the other against the bees, plus if he succeeds, both our enemies weaken

    I'm kind of salty about the trials since Magnus lost his arms and turn trying to get new ones
     
    LordEdric said:
    [X] All that is necessary for evil to succeed...
    [X] Cloak the Ways Between

    I also think letting cannibal go give us 2 chances for him to die. One against the clan, and the other against the bees, plus if he succeeds, both our enemies weaken

    I'm kind of salty about the trials since Magnus lost his arms and turn trying to get new ones
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    If we take the option to make a deal, we give Old Cannibal undescribed favours that means he takes over the Devil Bees for sure. In a negotiated End however, his fate is still uncertain.

    [X] Cloak the Ways Between
    [X] The Negotiated End
     
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    [X] All that is necessary for evil to succeed...
    [] Cloak the Ways Between
    EDIT: [X] Blind the Thief

    Still open to arguments, but I am pretty happy with this for now.

    The Trials are far and away our biggest recurring problem. The most sinister threat to the Golden Devils has always been a slow death by a thousand cuts. We spend wealth and energy each century preparing for the culling, and even more trying to claw our way back to stability after being decimated.

    Let the terrible calamity of the last Trial be the last great loss of its kind. If we are lucky the 5th Sea Cultivators will assume they are being punished by heaven for cheating last time and be more cautious in future!

    Edit: approval voting since it looks like my favourite choice is lagging behind.

    [X] The Negotiated End

    Edit Edit:
    Been swayed by the arguments, while the Trial bonus would also be amazing, getting us out of poverty sooner is a potential force multiplier.
     
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    [X] Cloak the Ways Between

    Unless someone can come up with a damn good argument for why this should not be the winner, I'm voting for this...
     
    Katana1515 said:
    Let the terrible calamity of the last Trial be the last great loss of its kind. If we are lucky the 5th Sea Cultivators will assume they are being punished by heaven for cheating last time and be more cautious in future!
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    This seems like a very good point given the trials have been ongoing for millenia and seems to be just as much a part of their culture as it is for the Devils, so they would start asking serious questions about just why it has changed. So there's a chance that this not only leads to benefits for the Devils, but a malus for the antagonist given they attempted to cheat the trials last time and for them IC caused them to suffer heaven's disfavour so should cause issues for their internal clan politics.
     
    [X] The Negotiated End
    [X] Cloak the Ways Between

    Helping Old Cannibal establish a new stronghold within the Devil Bees is short-sighted IMO. Yes, we gain a ton of land but we're creating two bitter enemies in the long-term, Jingshen and Old Cannibal, by becoming the biggest threat in the region.
    It also risks starting a feud with Jingshen without any time to consolidate gains if our backroom dealing is exposed. It would worsen our relations with Strength Purity Sect.

    You know what's the most dangerous threat to our Clan? Letting an Old Monster like Cannibal learn from his mistakes and recover. Once he gains control over the Devil Bees, it becomes almost impossible to dislodge him again because of their incredible mobility and mountainous location.
    If that happens, we're back to the status quo, the Jingshen will become much more actively hostile and the Devil Bees will constantly harass us under Cannibal.

    Vote for Negotiated End, it leaves us with flexibility and doesn't remove the boot from Old Cannibal's throat.
     
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    [X] Plan : A strong negociating position
    -[X] Step into the Light
    -[X] The Negotiated End

    I don't know how such stronger we'd get from "Step into the light", but we already are decently able to oppose Jingshen. If we get stronger (god forbid if we get late nascent soul level strength), our negociating position with Jingshen becomes quite interesting. Since "The negociated end" seems to mean discussions between only us and Jingshen for the Cannibal lands.

    I'll admit that I'm a bit biased as I love the whole underdog thing the clan has with the wealth curse, trials, stronger tribulations, etc. I'd find it quite badass to overcome them in sheer defiance of fate, rather those disadvantages being weakened.

    This option is also the one that gives us the best chance to bring old cannibal to justice without compromising the soul of the clan. Sure he might flee, but vengeance is best served cold and with a boost in power, we might well be able to hunt him down. Also improves our ability to act on to weaken the bees decisively.

    TLDR :
    + We only have to negotiate with Jingshen, which getting stronger ensures we get a better negociating position.
    + Getting more land might mean as much or even more wealth than the wealth curse option.
    + Gives us great flexibility by making Manuel a stronger power potentialy enabling us to act on the Bees weakness.
    + Gives us a good chance to be able to hunt down the Cannibal.

    EDIT : Thinking about it, spliting the land between Jingshen and us is really the best deal, after all, the wealth Jingshen get, they'll have to trade though our lands, which means more tariffs (and if we are stronger, good luck to them skimping on those). Hell, seeing how they don't have a wealth curse any new land they get could be quite profitable to us indeed.

    EDIT2 : Guess I'll also vote for the individual options for now.

    [X] Step into the Light
    [X] The Negotiated End

    I like this better than trials debuf since it means a faster Nascent Soul successor :

    [X] Even Lightning comes from a Cloud

    Approval voting this one since it IS a major wealth boost and I like it better than Trials debuff :

    [X] Blind the Thief
     
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    Resonant said:
    You know what's the most dangerous threat to our Clan? Letting an Old Monster like Cannibal learn from his mistakes and recover. Once he gains control over the Devil Bees, it becomes almost impossible to dislodge him again because of their incredible mobility and mountainous location.
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    I respect your point about not wanting to risk a feud with Jingshen, it just seems to me that the new balance of power sets us on a collision course anyway, particularly as they sit on their mines slowly grinding their way towards an economic victory. A status quo is a losing proposition in that case.

    On the other hand your point about Old Cannibal seems odd since The Negotiation gives him a pass to head over to the Devil Bee's anyway. Sure he might take an extra turn or so without Manuels help, but its still going to happen.

    On the flip side Old Cannibal is the Devil we Know! The Corpse Gulper incident shows that he can be parlayed with reliably and Manuel has already bested him in every dealing they have had since the quest began.

    Moreover I would rather have a close eye on how his hostile takeover works out, we might even be able to throw a spanner in the works along the way or barter another lengthy ceasefire out of him in return for aid if he runs into more opposition than he expected.
     
    Katana1515 said:
    Sure he might take an extra turn or so without Manuels help, but its still going to happen.
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    Might not he will have his own rolls to make. We don't have a clear view of how the civil war is going. For all we know they will all unite against him as a common enemy. But even if he succeeds he is not going to be at all secure in his position. Blood sects are never very stable, but he is going to be an outsider taking over.
     
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    DangerKitty said:
    B. Old gold is still OLD. Its a good buff, but its also time limited by old golds age.
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    Is it really though?

    Age (Max) - 1,620 (3,500)

    Health - Healthy

    Intrigue - High
    Administration - High
    Secret Knowledge - High
    Teaching - Very high
    Warfare -     High
    Combat - Medium
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    We are less than half of our max age. We still have 94 turns to either get a successor or reach Spirit Severing... it's quite a lot, especially if "Step into the Light" brings us a step closer to Late Nascent soul.

    The clan was build to perdure despite trials and tribulations. We are in a rough spot now but our gains in this war means that in the long run we'll stand strong. We need to be strong enough to defend our new land. Being stronger means everything in such a world :
    - Less possibility of rebellion from our vassals
    - Less possibility of being attacked by other powers
    - More flexibility to act in foreign politics

    We are suffering for Core Formation but time will allow us to repair, and during that time, that war has shown we can rely on our vassals if need be. More land means more cultivators in the long run and being stronger gives us the best opportunity to take land without betraying the principles of our ancestors who almost lost everything.

    The clan is already so defensive that Manuel is probably the weakest link right now, let's start to rectify that.


    Katana1515 said:
    I respect your point about not wanting to risk a feud with Jingshen, it just seems to me that the new balance of power sets us on a collision course anyway, particularly as they sit on their mines slowly grinding their way towards an economic victory. A status quo is a losing proposition in that case.
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    It's not really Status Quo, it's more both we and Jingshen get stronger while the rest of the continent doesn't. Most notably, it means we get stronger while both our remaining enemies don't.

    We SHOULD be wary of Jingshen, but they are NOT an enemy, merely a rival. Even if they rise in proeminence, they are unlikely to just throw themselves at us suicidaly (especially after they saw the fate of the Cannibals and the Bees before them). I just don't see why either them or us would want to attack the other :
    • Even with tons of money it's unlikely Jingshen gets strong enough as a merchant clan to be in a position where war with our heavy martial defensive clan is beneficial to them.
    • We'd have to be daft to attack Jingshen and risk the ire of the other righteous powers when we still have room for expansion through the Devil Bees (which would also save the mortals under their yoke).

    Plus, a richer Jingshen potentially means more tarrifs, we just have to ensure Manuel and the clan are strong enough to collect them.
     
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    Sparsebeard said:
    The clan is already so defensive that Manuel is probably the weakest link right now, let's start to rectify that.
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    The problem with Manuel is that every time we use him in a roll with risk we risk a game over, making him stronger will reduce the risk of him dying but not remove it and as such not actually remove the problem, while choosing to reduce tribulation strength will reduce the difficulty to advance to nascent soul and might allow us to another nascent soul earlier.
     
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    [X] The New Sect

    This creates a new status quo. Being supported and founded by the strength sect, which is favorable to us, they will also be favorable to us. This allows us to get a breather and turn our focus towards the devil bees. Reducing the fronts we operate on will on strengthen us. We don't need to rush anything. The long game is the game our clan plays well. Also a new sect will mean more traffic, which we can tax.

    [X] Cloak the Ways Between

    Reducing the impact of this curse has enormous effects. Less of our people die, less of our money spent on trying to survive. This could really create a cascade which pulls us up and away from the easy prey we currently are.
     
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