Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

occipitallobe · Oct 2, 2020

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nothingtoseehere · Dec 15, 2020

I don't think that plan is bad in terms of forces used. I think it's bad because it weakens our sect - by paying Wealth to to the Hong we don't need to and getting us less of the Soup Sects Soups, and strenthening Jingshen by letting the Soup Sect trade with them. Relationships can be smoothed over - Wealth and influence is gone forever.

[X] Plan: Demand more from Vassals to win
-[X][HONG] Qi Condensation Deployment (+75,000 Qi Condensation disciples for the duration of the war)
-[X][HONG] Elite Deployment (+2 Late Core Formation Elders, +1 Great Circle Elder for the duration of the war)
-[X][HONG] Front Line Deployment
-[X][HONG] Land
-[X][HONG] A Favor
-[X][SOUP] Soups and Spices (Losses among Foundation and above cultivators mitigated during the war).

At the end of the day, being a vassal comes with obligations to your overlords - to send help and aid them when asked. We treat our vassals well regularly so that we can demand more from them in times like this - to help defend mortals against the Blood Path. This is no time to be saving influence for the future - it's as our general said, time to be cashing in all our chips. If we do have to give the Soup Sect something, I'd much rather give a Favour than trade rights - a favour can be used, trade rights will be a bitch to claw back once we give them away.

Liliet · Dec 15, 2020

So I think I'll be changing my vote

[X] Plan: Take what we need to win
[X] Plan All In
[X] Plan All In Without Foundation

RebelYell · Dec 15, 2020

Sparsebeard said:
If we can enlist Jingsheng's help, our vassals are somewhat superfluous. If they refuse to help us in exchange for all that we can offer them... ALARM BELLS should be ringing, either they are already in league with our enemies or they intend to strike the loser of our conflict. After all, it's highly suspicious if they don't want to take care our the annoyance that are the cannibals when offered most of the benefits.

Impossible, we started out the golden devil clan as benevolent overlord's precisely for our vassal's and mortal's to hold us in good faith, Nobody likes the blood cannibal's and their's no good reason for our vassal's to backstab us currently because we've been kind to them, we lose that if we ask more than we give.
Jingshen has more reason to just refuse our peace treaty and watch us duke it out and finish the straggler's themselves, they get all the benefit's including heaven's favor killing us at no cost to themselves.

Raron · Dec 15, 2020

Sparsebeard said:
I don't think one of our vassals getting an early nascent soul is neccessarily a bad thing. Our sect's land provived enough for many nascent souls in the close past we could supply the ressources in the short term in exchange for favors or military help. Hell, depending on the outcome of the coming wars against the cannibals and perhaps the bees we might even be able to trade them enough land to support a nascent soul themselves (we are all about the win-win).

It wouldn't be as good as having our own expert, but a second nascent soul to call upon in time of troubles is better than nothing (since we are probably far from raising one of our own).

Still, I do agree that spending so much on our vassals sending us reinforcements is a huge risk. As stated above, I'd rather expend those ressources on securing Jingsheng's help (else the cannibal might beat us in a bidding war).

If we can enlist Jingsheng's help, our vassals are somewhat superfluous. If they refuse to help us in exchange for all that we can offer them... ALARM BELLS should be ringing, either they are already in league with our enemies or they intend to strike the loser of our conflict. After all, it's highly suspicious if they don't want to take care our the annoyance that are the cannibals when offered most of the benefits.

Our sect land is not what it used to be. When we had multiple Nascent Souls, our current territory was just a most eastern outpost, if even that. We got driven out of that.

When we had a single Early and Mid Nascant Soul, we had to resort to raiding to support them. This meant we didn't have liquid capital to support some of the projects we currently have going. So yea, the first part of that argument is wrong. There can only be one Nascent Soul in our current territory. Two is already pushing bounds and requires raids and conflict.

So that means limited resources. Which quite often means conflict. They don't have anywhere near resources to support the theoretical Nascent Soul. So they need to get that income through conquest (or I guess just constantly doing Mercenery work). Considering their position, it's either us or the Sorrowfull Blacksmith Sect if they go for expansion route. And I ain't liking our odds.

Unless we somehow unify our own two clans, I ain't seeing that happening.

And well, I'm not sure why anybody would want Jingshen help. I think they have proven over and over again they would gladly fuck us over if possible.

All in all, the big question is how ambitious are they? I have a feeling I won't like the answer. Both for Hong and Jingshen.

Sparsebeard · Dec 15, 2020

RebelYell said:
Impossible, we started out the golden devil clan as benevolent overlord's precisely for our vassal's and mortal's to hold us in good faith, Nobody likes the blood cannibal's and their's no good reason for our vassal's to backstab us currently because we've been kind to them, we lose that if we ask more than we give.

The way I see it, much safer to make sure our vassals don't have a good opportunity to revolt than to rely on their gratefulness.

RebelYell said:
Jingshen has more reason to just refuse our peace treaty and watch us duke it out and finish the straggler's themselves, they get all the benefit's including heaven's favor killing us at no cost to themselves.

Rather than just hoping that Jingshen won't be aiming for us I'd rather have the ressources to make sure via a treaty.

Sure our relations with Jingshen are not stellar... on the other hand such relations exists. They already trade with us and the daughter visited us. Sure, it was a somewhat hostile visit but on the other dialogue is at least open.

I do think we can offer them enough that it wouldn't be worth the opportunity cost for them to bet on both us and the cannibal to be weakened enough by the war to make an invasion viable. After all, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. If they join us in our war, the risk is much lesser to them than a war against us if we win by the skin of our teeths (or worst we win by a lot and become so powerful as to make them sweat). Even worst to them would be for the blood cultivator to reach late stage through bloody conquest.

We have so much we could offer them :
- The cannibals' lands (provided they help us with the bees afterwards)
- Old Cannibal's body
- Limited exclusivity to sell our formations as a middleman
- A tarrif-less passage though our lands
- Limited access to our secret realm
- Setting our terraforming or defensive formations in their lands

Sure the cost is high but if we can set up a secure border in the north we are so much safer. We don't need to defeat Jingshen militarily, we just need the time to let our young seeds mature.

Raron said:
When we had a single Early and Mid Nascant Soul, we had to resort to raiding to support them. This meant we didn't have liquid capital to support some of the projects we currently have going. So yea, the first part of that argument is wrong. There can only be one Nascent Soul in our current territory. Two is already pushing bounds and requires raids and conflict.

So that means limited resources. Which quite often means conflict. They don't have anywhere near resources to support the theoretical Nascent Soul. So they need to get that income through conquest (or I guess just constantly doing Mercenery work). Considering their position, it's either us or the Sorrowfull Blacksmith Sect if they go for expansion route. And I ain't liking our odds.

We already have more territory than we had at the beginning, supporting an early and a mid nascent should be possible I think. And why couldn't we just help them take land from our enemies, it doesn't need to be contiguous so long as it's in our realm.

Raron said:
And well, I'm not sure why anybody would want Jingshen help. I think they have proven over and over again they would gladly fuck us over if possible.

As will pretty much everybody else in the setting. Still, so long as we have a long enough binding agreement with enough benefits on both sides time will bring us closer together. We had a deal that held with the friggin Blood Cannibals, a similar arrangement with Jingshen would surely hold.

Raron · Dec 15, 2020

Sparsebeard said:
We already have more territory than we had at the beginning, supporting an early and a mid nascent should be possible I think. And why couldn't we just help them take land from our enemies, it doesn't need to be contiguous so long as it's in our realm.

It's not.

I mean, in theory it is, but I'll go against any attempt to do that. I should explain.

We know how exactly much income our new territories bring us. It's right over here.
Upkeep is about 1:100 for each high and lower realm. So for 1 Core Formation, you can support 100 Foundation Establisments, and 10 000 Qi Condensation. Each territory brings us 9x that. So in total, the two new territories bring us a 18% of a Nascent Soul. Or 6 Core Formation, 600 Foundation Establisment and 60 000 Qi Condensation for both new territories. The new territories are about 10% of our income from territories. Nowhere near enough for a new Nascent Soul. It's actually thanks to the Spirit Stone mines and Scorpion road that we can support our Nascent Soul. They make up 60% of our income.

So how is it possible to support a second Nascent Soul? Cut off the lower realms. Reduce the number of Qi Condensation, Formation Establisment and Core Formations. I'm in no way, shape or form voting for that. And I think most people agree with me on that.

So yes, you are technically correct in that with the loss of a lot of our Core Formation Cultivators and new territories we can support a second Nascent Soul. But don't expect any more Core Formations, since we can't support them. And no more Wealth generation in that case. So we would need to turn to raiding again.

And considering that Hong clan would have about 50% of our forces, that would be a very weird position to be in. They wouldn't be a vassal in that case, more of a overlord. I think it's the equivalent of giving them 10 Wealth every turn? Probably way more. Wealth is abstract.

Nascent Souls are expensive.

Sparsebeard said:
As will pretty much everybody else in the setting. Still, so long as we have a long enough binding agreement with enough benefits on both sides time will bring us closer together. We had a deal that held with the friggin Blood Cannibals, a similar arrangement with Jingshen would surely hold.

Yes, and look where we are at currently.

Fighting a war of extinction with the Cannibals. We need to give them something of equivelent value.

What do we have that it's worth for them to mobilize their armies and fight the Blood Cannibals? And how are we sure we won't be in this spot a century later, but against the Jingshen and even weaker then?

Sparsebeard · Dec 15, 2020

Raron said:
It's not.

I mean, in theory it is, but I'll go against any attempt to do that. I should explain.

...

Nascent Souls are expensive.

Well, I expected something similar... Still, we wouldn't have to pay the full upkeep (a nascent soul can create some wealth of his own) and it's not like I propose we actively attempt to raise a Hong nascent soul. Only that if they do manage that miracle, it's our duty as their overlord to make it work.

Raron said:
Yes, and look where we are at currently.

Fighting a war of extinction with the Cannibals. We need to give them something of equivelent value.

What do we have that it's worth for them to mobilize their armies and fight the Blood Cannibals? And how are we sure we won't be in this spot a century later, but against the Jingshen and even weaker then?

A treaty doesn't need to be only a century long, I'd aim for a millenia if possible lol. We are NOT enemies with the Jingshen (that we know of). I've enumerated what we can offer them in my previous post and I do think it would be sufficent to enlist them in our war if we give them enough. Ganging up on a weakened Old Cannibal is not the most risky venture (especially if we can get the Flood dragons to join in the fun).

nothingtoseehere · Dec 15, 2020

What we can offer Jingshen (and the whole reason they act against us) is no tariffs across the Scorpion road. They want to be able to trade their spirit stones without paying tariffs, and until they can do that they will continue to try and undermine us. The reason we can't do that is that such tariffs are 30% of our income. They won't be joining the Cannibals - they do want to keep the Rightous on side for trade - but they are more than happy to watch to enemies pounce on each other and continue their long term plan of saving up to sustain 3 Souls for a century or so and use that time to control the desert and secure free trade.

Raron · Dec 15, 2020

Sparsebeard said:
Well, I expected something similar... Still, we wouldn't have to pay the full upkeep (a nascent soul can create some wealth of his own) and it's not like I propose we actively attempt to raise a Hong nascent soul. Only that if they do manage that miracle, it's our duty as their overlord to make it work.

It's really not our duty to make it work.

Actually, I can without a problem argue that it is our duty to not make it work.

They would consist about 40% forces currently in our realm if they get a Nascent Soul. Us being another 40%, and everybody else would have around 20%.

They are bound to have some ambition, like the Xin Kingdom, then the Hua empire, and so on and on.

And why should their Nascent Soul consistently do work, while our Nascent Soul plays around and spies on their enemies. It's not like the Jingshen ever where a threat to Hong.

And that is a pretty nice trade route and mine the we have. It would be too bad if the Hong got greedy.

So yea, it's our duty as a overlord to keep our vassals in line. That is very hard to do when vassals are as strong as you on paper.

I agree that we should manage that miracle. In a discreet way as possible. And lots of knives.

But optimally, we should also try to steer clear from it. Like not giving them money, so they can theoretically manage to do that in the first place.

Sparsebeard said:
A treaty doesn't need to be only a century long, I'd aim for a millenia if possible lol. We are NOT enemies with the Jingshen (that we know of). I've enumerated what we can offer them in my previous post and I do think it would be sufficent to enlist them in our war if we give them enough. Ganging up on a weakened Old Cannibal is not the most risky venture (especially if we can get the Flood dragons to join in the fun).

Have you missed the consistent backstabbing and trechery thing we have been doing with the Jingshen? Every meeting we have with them, either they try to screw us over, or we try them. It includes literal assasination attempts. Not very good ones, but still the point stands.

They are not our friends. They are strictly our rivals, and we tolerate each other. Mostly because us cutting them off would be doom for them, and we gain a lot by tariffing them.

Also, it's kind off forbidden to publicly ally with a Demonic faction. It's a big no-no. And we are considered a Demonic faction.

RebelYell · Dec 15, 2020

Sparsebeard said:
A treaty doesn't need to be only a century long, I'd aim for a millenia if possible lol. We are NOT enemies with the Jingshen (that we know of). I've enumerated what we can offer them in my previous post and I do think it would be sufficent to enlist them in our war if we give them enough. Ganging up on a weakened Old Cannibal is not the most risky venture (especially if we can get the Flood dragons to join in the fun).

We'd need to give Jingshen more than what we're giving our vassals already, what they really want is the scorpion road and land, If we put those on the table then yes they would likely consider it.
However- think long term on this, the devil bees won't stay in civil war forever and the trials are coming after this war which we'd need to prep for both which costs dosh, and when the war in the plains is lessened the saber sect will plan to screw us over- again.
Add all this together and we're looking at another death spiral, peace is nice but wealth and strength is forever. We should Lean on our vassals who we trust more than Jingshen because our vassals are still our allies, there is no conceivable reason why they'd betray us at this current time, not for money nor power nor face or even breaking ties to place their allegiance to the blood cannibals who would eat them, it'd be the end of their clan.
I reiterate we are a clan that treat's them kindly with a light touch on their management besides at times like this during war, they don't resent us for this, we can trust them.

wrecksalot · Dec 15, 2020

Ulysses 6- You'll Feel A Slight Pinch
I should have known that this was a poor idea when I saw that Iason had a black eye in addition to his having broken both his arms instead of merely one. The eye itself was whole, so it was not too difficult to fix, complicated only slightly by the fact that the medicine couldn't be administered topically due to Iason's non-standard bloodline. He told me of those damnable owls and their nest, and related that he had hit one with his Crushing Sound Palm twice, and he was uncertain if he had actually killed it, as he had beaten a hasty retreat afterwards. Regardless, Barbed Spine Owl eggs were reputed to have some of the most dense Life Qi that could be found in the desert, and judging from the price of one on the Contribution Point Board the rumours were likely true. Even if he was somehow unable to refine it into a pill, simply selling one would likely cover a month or more of my cultivation.

So it was that I set out , determined to arrive at the nest at mid day, when the owls were likely to be asleep. The nest was located on a Giant Stinging Cactus, but judging by the fact that the tips of its spines did not sizzle on contact with the air, this specimen was likely dormant and therefore unripe for harvest in and of itself. I once again gave thanks to whichever wise senior invented the Pillar Raising Art, as he had no intention of trying to scramble up a cactus known for its fierce spines, dormant or not. I also have thanks to senior Jin Muyi, who was the only reason I knew anything at all about botany, as it suddenly became relevant to my duties as a medic.

As I slowly rode a pillar upwards, I began to appreciate exactly how massive this cactus was. Had the Barbed Spine Owls selected the tallest Giant Stinging Cactus to build their nest in, or had the ambient penetrating qi from the owls having a nest here caused this cactus to undergo a growth spurt? A few times I had had to expand the base of my pillar, so that the wind did not knock it down, but eventually I reached the top, and to my astonishment, no owls sat brooding on their nest, the eggs were simply laying there, the desert heat apparently sufficing to incubate them.

Like lightning from a clear sky, something slammed into me from behind. I felt a warm wetness spreading from my back as I was slammed into the cactus by a Barbed Spine Owl. I was between an owl and a sharp place, a cactus needle went through my spear hand as a spoon goes through dawn cry congee.

I brought my shield to my mouth, undoing the clasps on the back keeping my pillbox closed. As the Barbed Spine Owl tensed its whole body, surely in preparation to shake itself, which would cause its spines to render my torso to the consistency of shredded chicken, I tearfully consumed my masterpiece, the Burrowing Root Escape Pill. Immediately, the roots burst from me, pushing my off of the cactus as the roots frantically sought solid ground. As I tumbled towards the ground, it also tore the Barbed Spine Owl from me with a sickening sound. Regardless, slamming into the ground at terminal velocity would certainly hurt, so I extended a pillar sideways to break my fall. The roots, suddenly sensing a path to the ground began burrowing intently. The ride back home was very turbulent, And I was rather disappointed that due to the large number of stab wounds present on my body I couldn't identify which came from the cactus and the bird, and which came as a side effect of the pill.

When the roots suddenly stopped while I was still underground I began to panic, though at least the area I was now in was sand, rather than the stone that was at the base of the cactus. As my limbs flailed, looking to find purchase,my leg bumped into something metal I understood. The pill had brought me back to the place where it was made, at the time at the bottom of a deep pit of sand, and it had since been filled in by the desert winds. Now knowing which way was up, and that there was undoubtedly stone beneath my feet, I began raising a pillar beneath my feet, eventually breaching the surface of the sand and being able to breathe properly again.

Since I was now out of imminent danger, I looked myself over. A few small puncture wounds were leaking blood, probably from the cactus. There was another set of puncture wounds that were conveniently staunched by the barbed feathers lodged in them, but moving was painful. I bandaged the open wounds and made my way to the legion's medical facilities where I spent most of my spare time.

The only case that was even remotely pressing was Iason having managed to break an arm again in the time I'd been gone. Reasoning that keeping Iason waiting for a while might encourage him to actually figure out a real solution for that, and that delaying his own treatment might cause his wounds to be infected or worsen, I disinfected the wounds that I could, and replaced the bandages for good measure. Conventional wisdom for puncture wounds obstructed by barbed things was to push them through to the other side.

Trying that with these feathers surprisingly did not have the desired effect. I felt a searing pain in the area around the wound, that only barely receded when I ceased applying pressure. Thinking that these feathers might simply have had reversed barbs, I tried pulling them out the way they came in resulting in a similar effect. Mundane barbs being double sided like that was not likely, because having tried it twice I could feel that the barbs were longer than when I'd started. Cursing, I retrieved my scalpel and excised a large chunk of my flesh around each quill, their sticky, barbed qi being unable to recognize this as a means of removing them. When I wanted to use them, it should be rather trivial to slice away the chunks of my flesh at the base to ensure that only the quill itself would go in whatever pill I came up with for its use. Judging by the sound of things being knocked about in the waiting room, it seems Iason was becoming impatient. Oh well, no rest for the greedy I suppose.

A.N I would like an LST please

Alectai · Dec 15, 2020

I'll have counterarguments after I finish driving home

Sol Zagato · Dec 15, 2020

[X] Plan: Take what we need to win

Sparsebeard · Dec 16, 2020

Raron said:
Have you missed the consistent backstabbing and trechery thing we have been doing with the Jingshen? Every meeting we have with them, either they try to screw us over, or we try them. It includes literal assasination attempts. Not very good ones, but still the point stands.

They are not our friends. They are strictly our rivals, and we tolerate each other. Mostly because us cutting them off would be doom for them, and we gain a lot by tariffing them.

RebelYell said:
We'd need to give Jingshen more than what we're giving our vassals already, what they really want is the scorpion road and land, If we put those on the table then yes they would likely consider it.
However- think long term on this, the devil bees won't stay in civil war forever and the trials are coming after this war which we'd need to prep for both which costs dosh, and when the war in the plains is lessened the saber sect will plan to screw us over- again.

I have not missed how frayed our relations with Jingsheng are. This is a problem, a knife at our back during every war, a potentially dangerous tools for our ennemies to use.

Do I think we could survive a war with them? Probably, even in our weakened state. We are a martial and protectively inclined clan with a deep heritage after all.

But such a war would deplete our already depleted manpower.

The coming war is a rare opportunity to improve and cement a good relationship. Sure, giving away tarrifs for exemple would be expensive but with our share of spoils of war I'm sure we would still be in a decent position.

We also could save on the cost of bringing our vassals to war if we have Jingsheng on our side.

If we can reduce the need for forcification and troops on their borders, we can allocate those ressources elsewere. We are much more likely to preserve our forces and end the conflict earlier with another major power's involvement. Thus, increasing our chaces to be able to take advantage of the bees' civil war.

And Jingsheng has even MORE to gain.

I have no doubt we have been a pain in their butts and a constant drain of ressources. Conflict with the daughter's dao, loss the recent spirit stone shipments, trarifs in general, the warriness of having a non allied martialy focused neighbour, etc.. Just having that stop would already be huge for them!

Then, you have the benefits of peace, security and stability, things that merchants tend to relish.

An alliance would also bring a lot of synergistic advantages such as improved access to their product for us (and a potential for backroom trades with them as middlemen) and access to our products to sell for them.

Then there is the fact that we are a better neighbour than the cannibals (the risk of dangerous blood cultivators emerging throught the carnage is lesser if they help us.

Raron said:
Also, it's kind off forbidden to publicly ally with a Demonic faction. It's a big no-no. And we are considered a Demonic faction.

Well, it's not strictly impossible for sure. While they are not exectly a regular faction, the Flood Dragon Gang IS our allies, and a righteous faction.

With sufficent benefits, an arrangement will be found, the form of such agrement would depend I guess.

RebelYell said:
...and when the war in the plains is lessened the saber sect will plan to screw us over- again.
Add all this together and we're looking at another death spiral, peace is nice but wealth and strength is forever. We should Lean on our vassals who we trust more than Jingshen because our vassals are still our allies, there is no conceivable reason why they'd betray us at this current time, not for money nor power nor face or even breaking ties to place their allegiance to the blood cannibals who would eat them, it'd be the end of their clan.
I reiterate we are a clan that treat's them kindly with a light touch on their management besides at times like this during war, they don't resent us for this, we can trust them.

Which is why we should use this war to cement our relationship with Jingsheng, so they can't be used as a weapon against us by our many enemies. An alliance with Jingsheng also means they can't use our vassal against us.

I'm not saying we should mistreat our vassals, merely that the ressouces used to bring them into this war would be better spent elsewere if we can bring Jingsheng in and sign a treaty with them (if they don't agree to such a benefial deal, this pretty much indicate they already have SERIOUS plans in motion against us).

Alectai · Dec 16, 2020

Here's the problem Sparsebeard.

Jingshen wants one thing--a monopoly on the Spirit Stone trade. They don't have that because they need to ship any meaningful number of goods through the Scorpion Road, which means the Golden Devils get a cut. Territory? They don't need it--as it is they're only using a relatively small portion of their territory while the rest of it exists as a crumple zone to appease the Blood Cannibals. They're militarily weak to the point where their gameplan is "Save up enough money to crash promote a third Nascent Soul and then just bumrush the Golden Devils down before we run out of money".

Essentially, the only thing we have to bargain with--is the one thing we can't afford to give up. The Scorpion Road accounts for something on the lines of Thirty Percent of our Income. That's the only thing they want from us--not a forgiveness of tithes (Unless they plan to take advantage of that to ship high tier goods through duty free to further their 'Get enough money to just buy our way to victory' strategy). Not the destruction of the Blood Cannibals (The Blood Cannibals are a nuisance at best to them because they don't give a shit about their vassals. They established them as a crumple zone and pretty much just let them die every time.)

They just want a monopoly on the Spirit Stone Trade, so they can have all the money. And if they manage to plant their flag on the road? We won't get it back, because if we attack them they just bitch to the other Righteous Powers and we get coalitioned. The intrigue back and forth we had going on with them? Didn't even account to being rounding errors on either of our sheets. It's just two assholes fucking with each other to establish that they're not to be fucked with.

Meanwhile... I'm not trusting our Vassals to play nice on their own free will. I'm trusting them to keep their own self interest in mind. Being under the Golden Devils is a good gig. You're protected by the big fish, you get treated with respect, and when you're called to war they make sure there's enough benefits to make it wothwhile. Getting a single Early Nascent Soul--even if they have the capacity to upkeep that Nascent Soul (Very much easier said than done) without crashing every other asset... One Nascent Soul isn't enough to make you a Great Power, but it is enough that you can no longer be attached to one.

And if they make a big play and raise a Nascent Soul at the exact moment they can use it to score a big win and get independence by breaking the back of the Golden Devils somehow? ... What then?

They're a small but relatively resource dense power in a newly established free for all zone, literally any of the other Great Powers can stomp their new Nascent Soul into a mud puddle, and literally nobody likes a backstabber no matter how successfully they plant the knife in.

I don't trust their goodwill. I trust their understanding of benefits. The best move from this gain is to set up the infrastructure to support another Great Circle Core Formation or two instead of crash a Nascent Soul into being. Gives them significant influence without immediately triggering a "Suppress Vassal" crisis from their suzerain like establishing a Nascent Soul would.

Raron · Dec 16, 2020

Sparsebeard said:
The coming war is a rare opportunity to improve and cement a good relationship. Sure, giving away tarrifs for exemple would be expensive but with our share of spoils of war I'm sure we would still be in a decent position.

So Wealth is abstract, and I can't really tell you how much our tarrifs bring.

However I can tell you that it is 30% of our income, and that would by all odds ruin us. Blood Cannibals run on mortals, and don't require as much spirit stones as we do to run their forces, which leads to a conclusion that their lands are probably not as profitable as ours.

Suspending tarrifs on Jingshen clan would by all odds ruin us. Not to mention it may give the Jingshen a ability to raise a third Nascent Soul, which has been a long term plan of theirs, and it would bring forth so much trouble, I'm absolutly sure it's not worth it.

Sparsebeard said:
Well, it's not strictly impossible for sure. While they are not exectly a regular faction, the Flood Dragon Gang IS our allies, and a righteous faction.

With sufficent benefits, an arrangement will be found, the form of such agrement would depend I guess.

Flood Dragon Gang is our friend with which we exchange favors. We have the same thing to a lesser extent with Strength Purity Sect. That is however different compared to our arrangement with Blood Cannibals or the theoretical arrangement with Jingshen. It would be magical treasure enforced, and that specific one we have been told is a pretty big no-no.

Alectai said:
Getting a single Early Nascent Soul--even if they have the capacity to upkeep that Nascent Soul (Very much easier said than done) without crashing every other asset... One Nascent Soul isn't enough to make you a Great Power, but it is enough that you can no longer be attached to one.

I agree that getting a Nascent Soul without crashing every other asset is impossible. Long term. They can burn through their stockpile and Wealth we have given them to upkeep the Nascent Soul for a few turns. And then what? They would not have a viable way to keep the Nascent Soul fed. So they would need to get more income. And there are only 2 viable targets on their borders. Resource scarcity is a thing.

One Nascent Soul is not enough to make you a Great Power. I agree on that. Big problem is we are not a Great Power either. We are not the Strenght Purity Clan, or Demonic Altar Sect, who are without a doubt Great Power. We have a single Nascent Soul, few dozen Core Formation Elders and fancy formations. We are at a only slightly better position then Hong clan. We would both be regional powers.

People are ambitious. And in general not very wise when ambition clouds their mind.

I will also absolutely agree that it is not wise for their Great Circle Core Formation to breakthrough to Early Nascent Soul. But in general, people aren't very wise.

Alectai said:
And if they make a big play and raise a Nascent Soul at the exact moment they can use it to score a big win and get independence by breaking the back of the Golden Devils somehow? ... What then?

Be the hegemon of this corner of the region. Grow your karmic luck, raise new good seeds. Mostly the things we have been doing. They would theoretically be at big boy table like us. A smaller child at the big boy table, but no longer at the children's table.

Alectai said:
I don't trust their goodwill. I trust their understanding of benefits. The best move from this gain is to set up the infrastructure to support another Great Circle Core Formation or two instead of crash a Nascent Soul into being. Gives them significant influence without immediately triggering a "Suppress Vassal" crisis from their suzerain like establishing a Nascent Soul would.

I mean, they get far more benefits by being a Power. Far far more risks, but I can't know their cost-benefit analysis. But neither can anybody else.

Is it possible they don't raise a Nascent Soul? Yes. Is it possible that they do? Also yes. Are we fucked if they do? Absolutly.

So lets not give them a chance (and under chance, I mean money).

Sara · Dec 16, 2020

[X] Plan: Take what we need to win

Sparsebeard · Dec 16, 2020

Raron said:
Flood Dragon Gang is our friend with which we exchange favors. We have the same thing to a lesser extent with Strength Purity Sect. That is however different compared to our arrangement with Blood Cannibals or the theoretical arrangement with Jingshen. It would be magical treasure enforced, and that specific one we have been told is a pretty big no-no.

Ah, I assumed we could replicate a similarily enforced deal with Jingsheng (I love that we can't as this makes the scenario much harder and cooler).

I still think we should probe for help by their nascent souls in a trap against the cannibal if we can get it cheap enough but yeah, it seems deepening relationship beyond that might be hard.

Alectai said:
Here's the problem Sparsebeard.

Jingshen wants one thing--a monopoly on the Spirit Stone trade. They don't have that because they need to ship any meaningful number of goods through the Scorpion Road, which means the Golden Devils get a cut. Territory? They don't need it--as it is they're only using a relatively small portion of their territory while the rest of it exists as a crumple zone to appease the Blood Cannibals. They're militarily weak to the point where their gameplan is "Save up enough money to crash promote a third Nascent Soul and then just bumrush the Golden Devils down before we run out of money".

Essentially, the only thing we have to bargain with--is the one thing we can't afford to give up. The Scorpion Road accounts for something on the lines of Thirty Percent of our Income. That's the only thing they want from us--not a forgiveness of tithes (Unless they plan to take advantage of that to ship high tier goods through duty free to further their 'Get enough money to just buy our way to victory' strategy). Not the destruction of the Blood Cannibals (The Blood Cannibals are a nuisance at best to them because they don't give a shit about their vassals. They established them as a crumple zone and pretty much just let them die every time.)

They just want a monopoly on the Spirit Stone Trade, so they can have all the money. And if they manage to plant their flag on the road? We won't get it back, because if we attack them they just bitch to the other Righteous Powers and we get coalitioned. The intrigue back and forth we had going on with them? Didn't even account to being rounding errors on either of our sheets. It's just two assholes fucking with each other to establish that they're not to be fucked with.

If we can't sign a binding agreement with them I have to agree with you and others that giving up our trade tarrifs would need equivalent concessions on their part...

Alectai said:
Meanwhile... I'm not trusting our Vassals to play nice on their own free will. I'm trusting them to keep their own self interest in mind. Being under the Golden Devils is a good gig. You're protected by the big fish, you get treated with respect, and when you're called to war they make sure there's enough benefits to make it wothwhile. Getting a single Early Nascent Soul--even if they have the capacity to upkeep that Nascent Soul (Very much easier said than done) without crashing every other asset... One Nascent Soul isn't enough to make you a Great Power, but it is enough that you can no longer be attached to one.

And if they make a big play and raise a Nascent Soul at the exact moment they can use it to score a big win and get independence by breaking the back of the Golden Devils somehow? ... What then?

They're a small but relatively resource dense power in a newly established free for all zone, literally any of the other Great Powers can stomp their new Nascent Soul into a mud puddle, and literally nobody likes a backstabber no matter how successfully they plant the knife in.

I don't trust their goodwill. I trust their understanding of benefits. The best move from this gain is to set up the infrastructure to support another Great Circle Core Formation or two instead of crash a Nascent Soul into being. Gives them significant influence without immediately triggering a "Suppress Vassal" crisis from their suzerain like establishing a Nascent Soul would.

Yeah, it's best for us if they don't go for a nascent soul. And you're right, they probably understand that.

It's a highly theoretical "problem" anyway. If it somehow happens, we'll deal with it (and I'll probably be in favor of trying to make it work somehow) but yeah.

Liliet · Dec 16, 2020

Raron said:
So Wealth is abstract, and I can't really tell you how much our tarrifs bring.

However I can tell you that it is 30% of our income, and that would by all odds ruin us. Blood Cannibals run on mortals, and don't require as much spirit stones as we do to run their forces, which leads to a conclusion that their lands are probably not as profitable as ours.

Suspending tarrifs on Jingshen clan would by all odds ruin us. Not to mention it may give the Jingshen a ability to raise a third Nascent Soul, which has been a long term plan of theirs, and it would bring forth so much trouble, I'm absolutly sure it's not worth it.

Flood Dragon Gang is our friend with which we exchange favors. We have the same thing to a lesser extent with Strength Purity Sect. That is however different compared to our arrangement with Blood Cannibals or the theoretical arrangement with Jingshen. It would be magical treasure enforced, and that specific one we have been told is a pretty big no-no.

I agree that getting a Nascent Soul without crashing every other asset is impossible. Long term. They can burn through their stockpile and Wealth we have given them to upkeep the Nascent Soul for a few turns. And then what? They would not have a viable way to keep the Nascent Soul fed. So they would need to get more income. And there are only 2 viable targets on their borders. Resource scarcity is a thing.

One Nascent Soul is not enough to make you a Great Power. I agree on that. Big problem is we are not a Great Power either. We are not the Strenght Purity Clan, or Demonic Altar Sect, who are without a doubt Great Power. We have a single Nascent Soul, few dozen Core Formation Elders and fancy formations. We are at a only slightly better position then Hong clan. We would both be regional powers.

People are ambitious. And in general not very wise when ambition clouds their mind.

I will also absolutely agree that it is not wise for their Great Circle Core Formation to breakthrough to Early Nascent Soul. But in general, people aren't very wise.

Be the hegemon of this corner of the region. Grow your karmic luck, raise new good seeds. Mostly the things we have been doing. They would theoretically be at big boy table like us. A smaller child at the big boy table, but no longer at the children's table.

I mean, they get far more benefits by being a Power. Far far more risks, but I can't know their cost-benefit analysis. But neither can anybody else.

Is it possible they don't raise a Nascent Soul? Yes. Is it possible that they do? Also yes. Are we fucked if they do? Absolutly.

So lets not give them a chance (and under chance, I mean money).

If they go to fuck us over, their Nascent Soul is going down. They stand 0 chance against Manuel alone for as long as he's alive and not crippled, and that's before you account for the Hoplite formation of Core Formation experts (known) and any number of other tricks we have as a beaten-down Great Power that they don't know about (like the Nascent Soul Will that we do in fact have).

They know that. It's a rock-solid fact. Mutually assured destruction is actually the best they get.

Even in the best case scenario where they beat us without getting annihilated entirely, they're left without a Nascent Soul AND without a patron, holding desirable territories. Not, I think, for long.

Raron · Dec 16, 2020

Liliet said:
If they go to fuck us over, their Nascent Soul is going down. They stand 0 chance against Manuel alone for as long as he's alive and not crippled, and that's before you account for the Hoplite formation of Core Formation experts (known) and any number of other tricks we have as a beaten-down Great Power that they don't know about (like the Nascent Soul Will that we do in fact have).

They know that. It's a rock-solid fact. Mutually assured destruction is actually the best they get.

So even if they break us too, they're left without a Nascent Soul AND without a patron.

Again, this is only applicable if they have common sense and all the information. In which case their risk/benefit analysis would conclude it's not worth it.

But we can't know if they go that way. If you have talent, resources and opportunity, why not go towards the Nascent Soul? Sure it's a dumb move considering the political climate, but they may consider otherwise. People don't make optimal or reasonable decisions.

I just don't want to have a option of being in the receiving end of that decision if they decide that yes, they want to have a Nascent Soul.

People in Discord are consistently thinking that I claim this will happen. I'm not, I think it can happen.

And I also think that just the risk of it is not worth it. Give them Land, give them Nascent Soul actions, take the relationship dump. But I don't think it's worth the risk of bloating their treasury.

At this point I'm not sure if it's worth discussing it further, since it is indeed as said in Discord approaching the point of beating a dead horse. If you think that there is a 0% chance of them raising a Nascent Soul, feel free to ignore it. I just think I have a duty to point out it's a danger. How realistic it is, is up to you.

Liliet · Dec 16, 2020

I specifically clarified what information they have though: they know how long Manuel has been a Nascent Soul - a mid Nascent Soul, too, not early, they know this, he'd taken a tour around the lands at the beginning of the quest specifically to get this message across and they know the Golden Devils are larger, older and wealthier than them.

There's maybe a 1% chance of them raising a Nascent Soul period, which grows to like 1.1% from us giving them Wealth. I do not think the marginal loss is significant here.

Raron · Dec 16, 2020

Liliet said:
I specifically clarified what information they have though: they know how long Manuel has been a Nascent Soul - a mid Nascent Soul, too, not early, they know this, he'd taken a tour around the lands at the beginning of the quest specifically to get this message across and they know the Golden Devils are larger, older and wealthier than them.

There's maybe a 1% chance of them raising a Nascent Soul period, which grows to like 1.1% from us giving them Wealth. I do not think the marginal loss is significant here.

That is information that we know they have. Not information they actually have. They may have misinformation, or some hidden tricks and so on and on. Unless there is a hidden page with all the info they have on us, you can't in good faith make that claim. I however can make a claim I have absolutly no idea what they will do.

I have no idea where you are getting those chances for rising from Great Circle Core Formation to Nascent Soul.

1% chance is for all Core Formations reaching Nascent Soul. That means it includes Early, Middle, Late and Great Circle Core Formations.

We met 5 Great Circle Core Formations so far as far as I know. 2 stalled their Cultivation, 1 activated it's Tribulation too early and failed, 1 succeeded ascending into Nascent Soul and last one is their Elder.

Sample size is too small to conclude what the chances are, but it sure isn't 1%. For a Great Circle Core Formation to have 1% chance to get into Nascent Soul, you would have about a new Nascent Soul approximately every 5000 - 10 000 years in a single territory? It depends on a lot of factors I don't know to make a exact approximations. I have no idea where you got that 1% number, and I would like a source on that.

Mochinator · Dec 16, 2020

Raron said:
1 succeeded ascending into Nascent Soul and last one is their Elder.

Sample size is too small to conclude what the chances are, but it sure isn't 1%. For a Great Circle Core Formation to have 1% chance to get into Nascent Soul, you would have about a new Nascent Soul approximately every 5000 - 10 000 years in a single territory? It depends on a lot of factors I don't know to make a exact approximations. I have no idea where you got that 1% number, and I would like a source on that.

That one was only able to ascend because of a combination of luck as well as raw resources.

occipitallobe said:
"Archegetes. I am unsure of whether this is a good idea, but... Strength Purity Sect is offering an exchange. In return for a cessation on their tolls to the healing Oasis in Jingshen territory for sixty years, they are offering a large number of resources to the Flood Dragon Gang, and are willing to stand guard over one of their Core Formation cultivators who is looking to potentially step into Nascent Soul. Unofficially, of course. Officially we will be forced to give a little face against their strength, and afterwards they will assist their honorable Flood Dragon allies against the Demonic monsters for an unrelated reason."

[ ] Accept the Deal

Will reduce income by 1-3 Wealth per turn for 3 turns (amount depends on the War). 20% chance of a Flood Dragon Gang Early Nascent Soul emerging next turn.

To point out here, the wealth involved is not [1-3 Wealth per turn for 3 turns.] It's likely to be more because not only is Strength Purity richer then us, the previous Flood Dragon died as part of the big siege and as the leader of the Righteous side they have to acknowledge his sacrifice hence death benefits.

In addition, ascending itself has the risk of outside factors.

occipitallobe said:
"I am. Please ensure nobody interferes."

He nodded, and flew down the mountain.

Atop it soon after, he saw tribulation lightning come. Golden, forked lightning from the skies, striking at the mountaintop, hints of life within it. Enough for a talented cultivator to shatter their Core, and use that force to propel their soul from their body, refining it with each lightning strike. A moment of doubt would mean death, and only one in ten who entered such tribulation lived.

As the lightning forked down, a massive snake slithered up, seeking prey. It was huge, and the scales were rainbow-coloured, each shining a different colour as the light passed over them. It had fourteen eyes, and two tongues, each forked into two smaller tongues that forked once more.

Manuel looked at it in alarm. It was nearly three li long, and in Early Nascent Soul. Worse, he didn't recognise it. The poisons would be new to him, and likely deadly. He drew his cleaver and dagger, and attacked viciously.

The serpent reared back, hissing, a cloud of poison filling the air.

His far smaller form darted around it, knife and cleaver flashing time and time again. He didn't intend to waste Qi, or even try and kill it. Merely convincing it to leave would be sufficient.

Six days later, the two were still circling one another, throwing out cautious attacks. The serpent was weaker, true, but he could not risk being hit by an unknown poison of Nascent Soul grade. It was far larger, though, and he was far more agile, making it easily avoided.

A final bolt of lightning came down, shattering the mountaintop. Stones and dirt flooded the area, Manuel flying up, the serpent suddenly swept back by the deluge.

He felt nothing. Either she was dead, or...

He felt a flicker of life, and new power arising. She was alive. Just barely, but alive. He bent all his means to darting up there, grabbing Lady Yao and flying away at all speed. He discarded several defensive talismans to throw the serpent off-course, and threw some Qi-Consuming Powder into the air to cover their trail.

Had he not been there, he thought, she would have lived through tribulation - but the serpent would have had a fine Nascent Soul meal shortly afterwards.

Days of flying followed, Lady Yao remaining a small distance from death the entire while.

As he reached the Dawn Fortress, he put her down gently.

"Bring pills, salves, and herbs from my own collection! Quickly!"

Without Manuel, that Core would have been easy prey for the Spirit beast. And i doubt the Hong Clan has the relationship or the wealth to get another NS to help stand guard while theirs made the attempt.

TO note. The poison from the beast was of NS levels. The odds of succedding without any outside factors in the form of extra wealth and a guardian NS are super super low unless the Core in question is super blessed by heaven

Such a core would be known to us because any core is at least a 100 years old, which is within the past of this quest. Occi won't throw a sudden curveball without warning to us.

uri · Dec 16, 2020

I have a pretty wild idea but hear me out, do we know if the Hong Xuan Clan core formation great circle elder is a man or a woman because if it's a woman we can make a deal where we front the necessary wealth and treasures to make it to nascent soul and in return she and Manuel marry and we start to annex the Hong Xuan Clan (we will of course will use the treasure that kills the on that brakes their word), that way we get rid of a powerful vassal that might challenge us, gain a second nascent soul and only pay for it by adding another powerful faction to our clan.

Raron · Dec 16, 2020

Mochinator said:
That one was only able to ascend because of a combination of luck as well as raw resources.

I mean yea, but my point was that most of the luck and raw resources was already invested. Such is needed to reach Great Circle Core Formation. Now all that remains is resources needed to maximize the odds of ascension succeeding. I have no idea what those resources are or how expensive they are. I've seen 20 Wealth being claimed on Discord, but I honestly couldn't find any source to prove that, or to prove against that.

Still, by all odds the chance is way bigger then 1% for a Great Circle Core Formation.

Mochinator said:
To point out here, the wealth involved is not [1-3 Wealth per turn for 3 turns.] It's likely to be more because not only is Strength Purity richer then us, the previous Flood Dragon died as part of the big siege and as the leader of the Righteous side they have to acknowledge his sacrifice hence death benefits.

In addition, ascending itself has the risk of outside factors.

I'll also note that Strenght Purity Sect had no problems risking that investment away for just a chance to lure out the enemy, so take from that what you will. To me it speaks that they made a rather risky move, or the wealth invested was not that much for them.

Dense Qi is apparently required to up the chances of ascension, but as we all know, there are ways around that. Most include throwing money at it, but it could be something like digging a very big pit so you get more Qi from the depths.

Edit: Turns out you just need a high spot to make the Tribulation weaker. Which greatly simplifies and cheapens the matter.

Like seriously, I'm treating 1% for Great Circle ---> Nascent Soul as nonsense till I see some solid citation. At worst, it is 10%, but by all odds it is probably higher.

Unless of course you try to do it without Qi, wounded and unprepared. Then it is like attempting to win a lottery.

Mochinator said:
TO note. The poison from the beast was of NS levels. The odds of succedding without any outside factors in the form of extra wealth and a guardian NS are super super low unless the Core in question is super blessed by heaven

Well, we are currently voting to give extra Wealth. And the Hong Clan has been around for Centuries. They are bound to have some saved up. NS isn't needed unless you ascend in a dangerous area. I have no idea would they do that or not. They don't seem desperate enough for that, but what do I know about their inner thoughts?

I don't even know if they have access to dangerous and Qi rich areas.

Hmmph... this junior is a good seed [Cultivation Management Quest]

Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion

senseless brute

Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion

Protect the weak against the evil strong.